just about finished making my second longbow,

well, i guess it would be considered a flatbow since it had a glued handle section.

used deer antler for the limb tips.

question is,can i use a fastflight string since i have the antler overlays?

or should i stick to dacron?

I'm not sure what we have to do to convince people that FF won't cut through overlays. It's safe on wood overlays, fiberglass overlays, and micarta, and ivory, and deer antler, etc. I use it on bows with no overlays. It can not cut through a material like fiberglass or other composite...it just can't.

I agree with George. Folks also use low-stretch strings on self bows with no tip overlays.

Yessir. My Brad Smith osage bow has very small tips and came with a FF string and still has one on it and it's been shot a lot of times. Folks hang on to rumor an innuendo rather than research for facts.

awesome.

wanted to just feel out that question before i order the string.

i did it mostly for aesthetics, but being able to run FF would be a bonus.

You gentleman using fast flight on older bows, self bows etc. are you using padded loops on the strings?

I've also heard of some bowyers recommending to not use fast flight on their bows. Any ideas why?

Is all that more about limb integrity more so than the tips?

Supernaut, I was wondering the same thing.

i will probably just use b-50 for this bow to soften the shock to the limbs,

but may get an extra fast flight string to try besides.

B50 string is now gone from what Ive been hearing since Brownell is out of business, BCY B55 is the replacement. If I would have known that I would have bought a few spools last time. It says less stretch but I have not used that yet. Any opinions?

stilldub has the brownells b50 available for his strings.

Look guys, you can use what you like for whatever reason you think is good for you. Ten years ago I couldn't figure out why low stretch wouldn't work on old bows. First of all, linen was used in the olden days and it had almost zero stretch, but was prone to break. Second, Kevlar was being used in the 70's on recurves. And so, I decided to try it and not listen to rumors since there never has been one study on old bows versus fastflight, so I started using it. In over ten years now I haven't had one failure, or even a semblance of visual wear on a bow tip area. None! Nada!

The only bows I've seen broken with it were ones that were split down the limb from an apparent crack in the glass that was already there. That's why I tell folks to rework the string nocks before shooting any bow. Make sure they are symmetrical and that there are no splits or cracks or edges there where any string can start an opening.

Also, when a bow breaks with B-50, no one ever blames the string....they always look for something else. That made me suspicious and as it turned out, the whole mess is just old wive's tales. My 1966 Black Hawk Scorpion has no tip overlays. Zero...tip overlays. It has had thousands of arrows through it and all of them with FF string material. There isn't even a mark on the string nock area anywhere.

Now, if after the experience of several dozen of us on the LW, who are using FF on old bows, you are still afraid of it? I don't know what to tell you other than keep using Dacron B-50, or Polyester B-55 and be happy. If you're looking for someone to guarantee you no problems with FF, you aren't going to find it as any bow can break. I'll keep using it myself but your choice is your choice. Period.

I took Georges' advice a few years ago and started using FF on all my bows,'56 Peaerson no tip overlays, moved up in spine and the bow became more quiet, '56 Bear Polar original tips/overlays, same rusults, '69 Necedah, tiny tips, same results. Same with a '56 Kodiak,,Wasp, a couple of older '70s HH's, Armbruster Grevey's, and about 25 or so other bows most of them were "vintage" '50's '60's bows etc,,,never had a problem. You check the tips/grooves, the limbs, glue/lines no matter what string you use anyway.

I applaud George for still having the patience to explain ONCE AGAIN, in a logical manner, why low stretch strings are not the pariah the uninformed make them out to be...

I'm glad he did it because I've run out of patience...LOL!

I am glad he mentioned linen and that it has zero stretch yet was deemed safe for use on REAL OLD bows. Excellent example of why the low stretch "sudden stop" argument does not hold water.

My X-99 Bloodline endless loop strings from Rooty have EXACTLY the same diameter loops as B-50. So why do the low stretch need to be padded??

And finally, look at the picture to see what a B-50 string did to my beautiful 1961 Diablo!!

Here's the string loop on a X-99 low stretch string. Same diameter as B-50. How is that going to rip down through the limb?

I doubt a B50 string caused that on its own.

If it doesn't matter and fast flight can be used on any bow, why are some bows marketed as fast flight compatible? Why do some bowyers recommend not using fast flight on their bows? Why do some string makers ask if your bow is fast flight compatible before they make you a string?

I'm not asking to cause trouble. I'm not a manufacturer, bowyer or string maker. I just wonder if it's really just a wives tale why the above mentioned things occur.

Because you shouldn't go any less than a certain diameter. Bcyx is a small strand. So no less than 18 strands in a Flemish string. To small will cut through wood. JF

Any idea how long these so-called "skinny strings" take to cut thru wood??? I use fast flight/lowstretch skinny strings since there was such thing, on every bow I own. From the 59 Kodiak Special to the Grayling Bears to the Canebrake {purpose designed for fast flight and with wooden tips}....to the customs with static tips. I keep checking and watching, but I see no evidence of any changes so far. Don't get me wrong, not saying it cant/wont happen...but it hasn't happened to date.

so theres no extra shock imparted to the bow when using a FF string?

Couldn't explain it and would sound stupid trying. I listened to more than a few folks on here and at shoots talk about why they used FF on older bows and what happened when they did. It took awhile for me to try it when I did everything seemed to be OK and still is with bows I've shot hundreds of arrows. Right now I'm using Mercury string material 15 strand with 33 in the loops. The padded loops as I understand it spreads the pressure all around the tips instead of concentrated on center. Maybe that's the secret, what do I know.

Nemophilist wrote " I doubt a B50 string caused that on its own."

ABSOLUTELY correct! I was being sarcastic.

The B-50 string had nothing to do with that catastrophic failure. (It was obviously a failure of the glue after many years.)

But the FIRST question that was asked when I originally posted the pictures of the limb failure was;

"What kind of string material were you using?"

If it had been low stretch I have no doubt that would have immediately been deemed (unfairly) to be the cause.

And that is the issue...any damage to a bow with a low stretch string is looked on as thr string's fault.

"so theres no extra shock imparted to the bow when using a FF string?....."

There is always some shock when you shoot a bow, and there is more of it when you use a low stretch string, no argument. As the draw weight goes up so does the limb thickness, so bows kind of automatically take the shock they produce. Shock is not just in the tips, if it was you wouldn't feel it in the riser. All that said, you can "shock" a bow more using dacron and too light an arrow than you ever will with low stretch and the proper arrow for the weight of the bow. The gain of low stretch in speed/performance is really not a lot. Pad up the loops and you will just about loose all of the advantage. You need a chrono to really tell any "advantage", so it's not like using one is this galactic difference in either shock or speed realized. Most guys say they like low stretch because "it's quieter" or "the shot just has a better feel to it" and don't get me wrong, there is some truth to those statements. I like it because the string last way longer. I believe most guys use it just because it is accepted as "better" and we all want the best. Dacron isn't really what you'd call "high stretch" either, it does stretch more than fast flight. I once knew a guy that made a bowstring out of high tensile safety wire...now that seems like about as "low stretch/no stretch as it can get. It didn't turn out to be the end all of bowstrings and if he hurt any bows with it he never admitted it.

Might as well throw my .02 in here. I've been a hobbyist bowyer for over 20 years. From the beginning I've used FF strings on my bows. Back then I think the only thing available was the original Fast Flight string material. I made 10 and 12 strand strings (with padded loops).

Back when I started I only made D/R longbows. Those strings really made those bows shine and calmed the thump in them as well.To date I've never had a problem with a string causing damage.

My experience with noise however has been different. I must have a terrible release because I usually cant get my bows quiet enough with low stretch strings to suit myself for hunting. I let someone else shoot them and they are quiet, some exceptionally so.

With that said I usually hunt with a 10 strand B-55 string, but I certainly wouldn't be afraid of low stretch on any bow if you can get it quiet enough.

I would suggest using a 10-12 strand low stretch string for your new self bow. The difference is amazing. Remember the "shock" to the limbs you speak of came from the limbs to begin with. Limbs are the only part of a bow that can generate energy. By using a low stretch string you are putting the created energy into the arrow, not back into the bow or a stretchy string.

thanks you guys for the great explanations.

The only reason I do not have low stretch material on all my bows is that I still have too many bows.

I am with George and Peter. And Rooty who lost his last bit of patience on the subject long ago.

DDave

Ditto what Dave said. Thanks to George and Peter for continuing to reply to this question. I would add that even before linen, sinew was used as bowstring. Do you think cured sinew stretches?

What others said is absolutely true: when a bow breaks with a low stretch string, the string is blamed. When it breaks with a B50 or similar string, the string is never blamed. We are a bunch of idiots.

This is a 59 Kodiak tip that had a B50 string on it. The string didn't make it shatter. A dry fire from a broken nock did.

To assuage anyone who got nauseous looking at that shattered tip, it ended well. Jason DuLac repaired it, no loss of limb length, the bow is fine now and the tip looks like this.

Just to add a little support to Georges comments ... I have a bow made by Scottish bowyer Peter Muir. I shoot the bow on very rare occasions and use a fastflight string .... Peter Muir died in 1891

When it comes to useing low stretch strings on any bow I personally do what the bowyer or manufacture of the bow says. Specially if the bow is still on warranty.

Nemophilist, that's prudent but has more to do with being able to return a bow under warranty, I suspect.

Bowyers have their own reasons for saying what they do. Here's a short list of what bowyers have sold to the public, which IMO have no basis in fact. Rather, these things are said to either sell more bows, sell new bows to people who feel they need the newer one, sell bows at greater profit or sell bows for less money.

1. A satin finish is better for hunting. This was a story promoted by bow companies and bowyers, to save money and time making bows. Gloss finishes are much harder to do and take more time.

2. Bamboo cores are better. Some of the best bowyers ever have said it's not true.

3. Carbon covered limbs are better. Same as #2. Carbon backed bows save money and make more money, b/c there are no problems with cracking in glass or blemishes in clear glass, and they cost more.

4. Only bows made for fast flight strings can use them. The translation is, you have to buy a new bow b/c the old bow not made for fast flight strings is now obsolete.

Bowyers don't know everything and often are just plain wrong.

shandorweiss, I hear what your saying but archers ( non-bowyers ) don't know everything and often are just plain wrong also.

Yes.

well, i ordered an 18 strand fast flight plus from stilldub.

should i serve the loops when it gets here just to be safe?

Have him serve the loops when he makes the string. Or, if it's a Flemish twist string, pad the loops with additional strands.

18 strand FF string. For me that is 8 strands to many.

FF can be used on any bow.

Yes George you are spot on like everyone else.I insisted on B50 for years cause the of the old wise tale about fast flight . Then the Rick Barbee convinced otherwise. D97 all the way for this cowboy no matter what the bow. Don’t have one with wheels. Arvin

Bassman...stilldub's strings are made from BCY-X which has a narrow strand diameter. 18-22 strands is optimum. Still less diameter than a 14 strand B-50.

pdiddly....

besides X, stilldub also offers them in brownells fast flight plus, and b-50 dacron.

Pdiddly, Ok I understand now . Was thinking in terms of D97.I have made strings with that kind of string count with 50lb. braid fishing line that ended up as skinny D97.

Antler expands and contracts with heat and cold or wet conditions and comes off eventually.

With smooth on I have never had a problem with bone tip over lays coming off.I scrape both surfaces to be glued with a hack saw blade.

Whitetail antler over Osage with 12 strands of fast flite with 6 added strands in the loops. Bamboo backed Hickory longbow. No issues after several shots.

Antler overlays don't eventually come off. I've never had an overlay pop off any bow. I have used horn, antler, ivory and dozens of woods on hundreds of bows. Do it right the first time and don't worry about it again.

well, sat the bow on top of my target and it tilted over and fell off, slamming the antler tips onto the concrete floor of the garage, and.......they didnt come off :)

woooooooo.

when i installed them i used tb3, roughed up both glue surfaces, and clamped them for about 18 hours before i started shaping them.

bow is almost finished :) have to do some final sanding today, and then will stain.... (going with a pecan stain)

may hit up the woodcraft store for some veneer to do a bit of accent on the back before i poly.

Don't out a veneer on the back or belly, it wont work.

i was going to put just a tiny piece on the "non" bending handle section to frame some leather i have on the back.

the leather only spans the grip area, and the veneer would only be a tiny 1/4" x 1.5" piece. purely for looks.

Horn is the best natural material you can put on a tip overlay but never antler . I have tried soaking it in acetone to remove the fat, I have drilled tiny holes with a dentist bit to allow the glue to absorb more and pillar into the antler. I have tried smooth on , ceiba geigy , super glue , and several other types of epoxy and still had an occasional tip pop off . I at one time did a lot of longbows with antler but never again .I have enough experience to know what works and what doesn't . I was hunting in 10 below zero weather once, when I got home I took my bow into my shop that is a little over 70 degrees and unstrung my longbow and both antler tip overlays came off with the string the change in temp did it .

What kind of bows were you building, Tim? Self or glass?

Bone I always looked at it as having bombshell tips.

I just figured out who Tim is. I'm sure gluing antler or bone to glass as compared to wood, as the subject bow is, isn't the same. Antler is one of the most popular over lays in the self bow world.

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