I'm an Ashby fan, I read it, tried it and it works for me. At the same time I'm not going to disrespect anybody that says it won't work, or that says something else works better for them. Honestly!
Here's the short version of my long story book: Next to Dave DeVille, shot placement is King, and super sharp- skinny-heavy arrows out of non girly bows will get you two holes when nothing else will.
I like about 170 to 180 fps. With a long draw that is easy to obtain with a 10 gpp arrow. Just seems more forgiving and quieter than a faster arrow. I have killed deer with a 150 fps longbow and 650 grain arrow. Great for the close shots in Pa.
I stand in the middle for my setups. Just because I think the bow needs a curtain amount of weight to remain as quiet as I like. Shot a 9-10 gpp arrow and a 13.5 gpp into a block and the penetration was basically the same. If penetration is a concern shoot really sharp 2 blade COC broadheads.
"Do I have a volunteer to stand still in front of a 390gr arrow traveling 200fps with 125gr broadhead shot at 20 yards ?"
I can help you out a little...I can tell without a doubt who IS NOT going to do it.......
My arrows aren't that light, but they are not heavy either. I like a faster arrow because it shoots flatter. I also don't necessarily have to have a pass thru either. I like an arrow that goes in at a good forward angle and keeps on cutting as they run. Even if you shoot a deer or bear in open woods, they are going to the thick stuff every time, and that is when a retained arrow does extra damage.
Some believe that it is unethical to shoot at a deer past 20 yards, some think an arrow needs to go at least 170 fps, others want 200 fps, while others want excessive tip weight. Beyond 20 yards is about where the distance visual and the lob of the arrow become more obvious. How much actual vertical flight difference is there from a 170 fps arrow to a 190 fps arrow at 20 yards. Not as much as you may think. I think it has more to do with what distances ar most practiced. If your eye gets use to 30 yards, 20 yards is going to look plenty flat. Over the past 50 plus years of deer hunting, I have seen plenty of guys getting deer from tree stands that lose inches of draw length when shooting down at a deer from a tree stand. All spine calculations, tuning and predictions of fast arrows goes out the window when that happens, but they still kill deer. If the only shot that you are going to take bowhunting is 15 yards out from a 15 foot high tree stand, you may need to make most of your practice shots and all of your tuning land form decisions while shooting from 15 feet up in a tree stand at a target that is no more than 15 yards out. For arrow speed I want an ASL that will put out a 10 gpp arrow out 200 to 220 fps at my 26.25" draw. It needs to have little or no hand shock, be deathly quiet, and super forgiving so it will forgive me of any yankingness when shoot as fast as i can. Need all of that because I generally kill deer with shots that are over 20 yards, or just maybe, what I am already getting is good enough.
Must say I have never worried about how fast my bow shot. I guess I just don't care. Many critters came to know......it is fast enough! But, I shoot heavy GPP arrows (520 ish grn.) from low to mid #40 bows. So its obvious I'm not going for speed at 12 GPP. A 20 yard shot at game is a long shot for me. I like 15 and in. To each their own. Fully concur with your comments Sarge.
My draw length gives me speed which I take for granted. Speed is important to me cause it makes my 9-11 GOP penetrate alot better, and should I hit bone it helps there as well.
I’ll agree with Sam’s point about balance. That’s why the 10 gpp is a good rule...this was hashed out decades ago, and is a still a pretty good rule of thumb today, IMO.
The part I struggle with in these discussions is when it’s believed that going with an ultra heavy arrow without increasing bow weight is a gain of some sort. I’ve tried it, not on live game because I didn’t like the results that I got on foam...but on the other hand, The diminishing returns seems to be allot less pronounced when we go the other way...in other words, an ultra light arrow seems to loose penetration at a slower rate than the ultra heavy arrow.
I’ve tried an 850 grain arrow out of a 45# Recurve and it barely buried the field point into the foam, and I’ve also tried a 300 grain arrow out of the same 45# bow which penetrated better than the latter but not as good as the 450 grain arrow out of the same bow, so now we’re back to the finding a good balance.
By all means go up in arrow weight but ya better have the energy to launch it at a decent pace or you will experience diminishing returns.
All of the above stated is my personal experience. Maybe I’m doing something wrong but I’m always willing to learn.
Oh, and btw, I do get 2 holes on a bull elk with a 44# curve, 10 gpp, 3 and 2 blades just the same. Just sayin
So, if you wanted to follow the 10 gpp rule, should I be concerned with a setup that is at 11.7 gpp? I can get closer to the 10 gpp with carbons, but with aluminum its tough when you have a 31" draw shooting 32" arrows.
I've haven't seen a decent bow that won't perform just fine within 20 yards with weights well over 10GPP. When shooting down from a tree I don't mind a little bit of trajectory that usually just helps me fight the gravity from shooting at an elevated position.
“Dean what ASL are you shooting that gives 200 to 220 GPS at 10 gpp and 26.5 draw Length?”
I think that’s the bow he carries on a Snipe hunt....
Lemme back up to the OP....
JMO:
1) Velocity is all but meaningless in terms of lethality. Unless the arrow is moving so fast that it cauterizes the wound channel via friction, an arrow will be exactly as lethal at “top” speed as it is when moving at a glacial pace; all that matters is placement and sharpness. Cut is Cut.
2(a) Depth of Penetration is a Big Deal and 2(b) two holes are better than one. Penetration comes down to Mass AND Velocity; your arrow has to be BOTH Fast Enough AND Heavy Enough to do the job.
3) If a 450 grain arrow is heavy enough to kill a bull Elk when launched from a 45 or 50 pound bow (10 or 9 GPP, respectively), then it’s heavy enough to kill the same bull out of a heavier bow at lower GPP and higher velocity. So right up to the point where a light arrow either won’t tune or cannot be quieted at the shot or is damaging to your bow, there is very little penalty for a faster, flatter-shooting arrow.
On the other hand, fast enough to hit where you’re looking within the range you’re prepared to shoot is probably fast enough..
Oh, 200 plus chronograph readings. Years ago at the Brandon South Dakota shoot. A friendly fellow named Dick Lesline wanted to shoot my bow through the speedometers. I had tapered cedar arrows with 125 grain points, 27" bop. He drew my 64@26&1/4" Schulz Legend to to 27". He got an average of 212 fps. A guy with a Bingham recurve got even more speed. The chronograph was set up in the patrician shade of a small tree. Most of the compound shooters were claiming the chronographs were reading slow. Many readings for compounds were coming in under 200fps. It was a blistering hot day. Lots of people were standing around drinking sodas and beer. Then one of the compound shooters said, "Everyone knows that the arrow from a compound doesn't get up to full speed until it's 20 or more yards down range." The hilarious part was, they all agreed with him. Must have been the heat. I have no idea how heavy those arrows were, nor do I believe the chronograph in the partial shade was giving accurate readings. I generally get around 170 for bows and arrows.
There's a point where weight & speed work best together. That point for most trad bows is 9 to 10 gpp of arrow weight.
I've done my own testing (extensive/exhaustive testing) with bows ranging from 45# to 98#.
The 9 to 10 gpp arrow weights out penetrated "all" arrow weights above, or below that range for every bow draw weight I used.
Of course (and just for example) one 50# bow may not shoot a 9 to 10 gpp arrow as fast as another 50# bow, BUT they both still shoot that weight range arrow best for penetration.
I'll be sticking with 9 to 10 gpp, and actually prefer to be right in the middle of that at 9.5.
Fred had it right. I won't be arguing with him about it anymore. 8^)
For quite a few years I experimented with different broadheads, and arrow weights. Mostly just to settle the matter for myself.
What I wanted to see was real world everyday common deer hunter results. After all I'm not "Ashby"...I probably will never hunt exotic thick skinned game, and I sure as heck don't want to hit heavy bone...hitting heavy bone is something I try to AVOID!
so.......I shot heavy..... I shot light....And they both worked.
lightest was right around 400 gr out of a 55 lb bow broadhead was a muzzy 100... I shot 5 deer that year, all passed totally through except one, but that one was all but through and fell out as soon as it clipped a laurel bush. All the deer went down in sight.
Heavy was smidge over 600 gr out of a 55 lb bow ace 2 blade they all also went totally through.
mostly though I've pretty well settled on arrows weighing upper 400 to 500 gr...and you know what?....they all go through.
moral of the story? make sure first of all your arrows are actually tuned, and flying perfectly...make your broadheads shaving sharp....and pick your weight.
Also I haven't found that arrow type makes much of a difference either, wood, carbon or aluminum. I also found broadhead type didn't either. 3 blade replacement blades such as muzzy or thunderhead, or Ace 2 blade, zwickey 2 blade, and magnus 2 blade.
I've shot at least 1 deer per year with a bow for a long time now, most years more if I hunt MD, and PA. So I think what I say to be valid.
What makes the biggest difference in penetration are.....
1. shot placement 2. arrow tuning. 3. Hitting your anchor and getting to full draw, and a good release.
I think anybody that's ever hit a mud- caked gristle plate on a Big Boar would agree that the sound is somewhat similar to Fastpitch hitting a catcher's mitt. A Super sharp 2 blade broadhead and skinny carbon arrow out of hard-hitting bow is the only way I found to get in there nicely on the big ones.
A while back at the outdoor targets at the county park, I watched a fellow with a fancy ILF set up and shooting what was said to be 850 grain arrows. I noticed that he had a much longer draw at the ten yard warm up target than he did at the 20 yard target. Most of his shots were hitting the ground. Remember that heavy set Hawaiian singer they called Izzy? i couldn't get that song out of my head, "somewhere over the rainbow". I was planning on using 610 grain tapered carbons out of my 58 pound right hand longbow, but now I am having second thoughts, thinking about how nice and fast some 460 grain cedars with 120 Hunter heads would fly out of it.
