Yes I know how to change my nocking point, I was simply asking because I was looking at Ilf bows and a few mentioned how easy it is to change the tiller for 3 under, So I wondered if it was that big of a deal to shoot 3 under with a regular tiller.
It's not necessary to have a bow tillered for three under to shoot that way. Been doing it over 40 years without an issue. In fact, I have ordered custom bows without them tillered for three under. I can see the reason and why it's done but simply not going to change what's worked and been so successful all these years.
Hey guys there just is no dumb question here on the LW. If you need help, please feel free to PM me or anyone here anytime and I will help any way I can. I mean heck, how do you think most of us learned anything? It was by asking and having it passed on to us and I made this video just now to try and help as much as I can. Shalom
Its not necessary--- ive shot bows that were tillered for split with 3 under for years. But when i decided to shoot 3 under as my "go to", i would have new bows tillered apache or 3 under--- it just seemed to make sense.
As was posted, you may just need to move your nocking point up a bit to keep limbs closer in time.
Don't let the rudeness from some deter you from asking questions. Your question was valid.
One of the things that comes in to play that is regularly overlooked is where the grip and arrow shelf are located in relation to the center of the bow. I would suggest that in addition to trying 3 under, you also try shooting using a different finger for your anchor/sighting reference. If you currently anchor with your index finger in the corner of your mouth, changing to the middle finger in the corner of the mouth will give you the same sight picture as it relates to target/arrow relationship. Nothing at all wrong with 3 under and my dad actually taught me to shoot that way in the '60's, but there are other ways to accomplish the same thing.
BINGO! Frank touched on something vital to these conversations that folks invariably ignore or are unaware of.
Guys giving tiller advice such as, "If it's tillered even, it's tillered for three under." Are NOT telling the whole story, they're not even telling half of it. You simply can't assume that.
As FDP said, where the bow's center is located has as much of an affect on what the resulting tiller profile should/may look like at at brace as moving your string hand up or down the width of a finger or two... often more. So how can folks give advice without knowing where bow center is? How can folks offer the same tiller advice on symmetrical and asymmetrical bows?
In other words, without knowing more info about a bow, saying "that bow is tillered for 3 under" just because the limbs measure the same in strength at brace is very poor, irresponsible advice. ...practically useless advice I would never take from anyone, or give to anyone, without a lot more information.
How the centers are oriented are important enough that it's my first design and layout consideration, it determines much about the bow. They're partly chosen depending on how the bow will be shot, and then later, the centers' locations factor in on what I expect to see during and after tillering and balancing a bow... on any bow I make.
A perfectly balanced bow for either a 3 under or split finger shooter could show a negative, even, or positive tiller at brace, and where the bow center is, is a determining factor... one factor. There are others.
I shoot with one finger above and two below, and most of my bows result in even tiller measurements at brace, with some a little negative, and few positive, each one is a little different, even if designed the same, and trust me, they're as balanced as can be.
Point is, just keep in mind, when someone says, "this bow is tillered even, for 3 under", there's a very, very good chance that they don't know that for sure.
It's a matter of generalities. Generally, a 3-under shooter will need a bit more negative than positive tiller--but not always... and it's a good selling point. No bowyer half-way across the country can tiller a bow for an archers needs so he guesses.
IMO there is no such thing as split or 3 under tiller. All bows have tiller. It usually runs from about 3/8" negative to 3/8" positive. Jeff and fdp know way more about it than I do.
Roy, you know enough about this topic to be dangerous ;^) So why don't you go ask them? Make THEM tell ya. It'll be more fun than messing with me :^)
Why? Well imo, whether they're right or wrong, I think most basically try to 'tiller em different' for the right reasons, but to be honest, I wonder how many of the folks making bows are doing what they think they are, and understand it to the degree necessary to say so as a definitive statement... one that's actually accurate. It's obvious many don't. I've found that when pressed, most bowyers tend to be vague or avoid the whole conversation. They make them that way because 'thats how its supposed to be'.
But to be fair, it's entirely possible that THEIR generality, applied to the bow's THEY make, has been better assessed than any such generality made by another simply regurgitating what he's heard, for the simple fact that the bowyer would/should/could be more familiar with the details of any bow he made, like center location, or shifting the tapers or the riser, etc, and how such details will or won't coordinate in use with a particular shooting style.
We should be able to see by now that, for instance, an 'even tiller' doesn't necessarily mean the same thing regarding dynamic balance from one bow to the next when they can have perfectly relevant, often unseen individual characteristics that differ.
I saw a fitting quote somewhere once that went something like... Many people see what they expect to see, what they've been told to see, what conventional wisdom tells them to see - not necessarily what truly is, and is right there in front of them.
As an archer, it is frustrating to try to learn about how bows function and how they are designed. I haven't found a comprehensive book or essay that explains bow design, unlike arrow tuning or building a shot sequence. The Traditional Bowyers Bible series only goes so far and 'Shooting the Stickbow' is a shooter's book; albeit a good shooter's book.
So, how do I locate the center of the bow? Is it halfway between the string nocks measured along the curvature of the bow?
Once the bow is tuned, let's say bareshaft tuned, is there an advantage of having the arrow end up almost perpendicular to the string as opposed to needing to locate a nocking point nearly one inch high?
If I'm going to stringwalk and hold the string as much as 1 1/2" below the arrow, is there an advantage to raising the arrow rest and nocking point on the string so I don't end up holding the string so far below the rest/shelf?
RC: Quite a few bowyers don't tiller differently for 3-under, but suggest instead that the archer adjust the tiller with nock point height.
As Frank and Jeff have already pointed out, where the center of the bow is also plays an important part as to how the bow should be tillered. It makes a difference whether the bow has symmetrical (even length) limbs or asymmetrical (uneven length) limbs. Put another way, it's where is the arrow shelf is in relation to the center of the bow? I've been taking this measurement for about 25 years now on bows I've owned.
Of the 30-40 bows I've examined, about half the bowyers build the limbs of equal length, i.e., the arrow shelf is 2 inches above the center of the grip (the grip being 4 inches from top to bottom). The other half place the arrow shelf about 1 1/4-inch above the center of the bow. This means that the top limb is longer than the lower limb. Now the same tiller on these two differently made bows is not going to give the same result.
There are two ways to determine where the center of your bow is. Lay the unstrung bow on it's side, lay a tape measure from nock to nock, find the center of that distance and make a perpendicular line from there across the riser.
Or, string the bow, measure from nock to nock and again mark the string in the center of that distance. Then place a bow square on that mark and lay it across the riser grip. In either case, measure from the line on the riser to the arrow shelf. If the distance is 2 inches, the limbs are symmetrical. If the distance is closer to 1 1/4 inches, it's asymmetrical.
BTW, not all the arrow shelves on the bows I measured were exactly 2 inches or 1 1/4 inches. Some were 1 7/8 inches, even 2 1/8 inches, others were 1 1/8 inches, 1 3/8 inches and other small variations.
OK. This topic has come up before. So often, in fact, that I saved a previous rather laborious post I made on the topic. Here it is again. It repeats some of what I said above, with some elaboration.
"An ILF is about the only bow on which you can adjust the tiller. Well, you can also shim bolt on limbs, I suppose. Most bowyers tiller their bows about 1/8 to 1/4 inch positive. If you ask for a 3-under tiller, they'll usually go with even tiller, maybe even negative tiller.
Regardless, I have bows with each, and can shoot any of them three under or split. I generally shoot split finger with my nock set at about a half-inch. However, I can shoot the same bows three under with the same nock point and get good arrow flight. By raising the nock 1/8 inch to 5/8 inches for 3 under shooting and I can still shoot it split. Get good arrow flight with either, though 3 under is noisier.
I sometimes shoot three under at close shots of 20 yards and under (which pretty much enables barrel sighting) and switch to split for longer shots (with the same bow and nock point height). Works for me.
In considering 3 under vs split finger, it's also wise to determine how high above the center of the bow the arrow rest is positioned. A good number of bowyers position the arrow shelf 1 1/4 inches above the center of the bow. Just as many position it 2 inches above the center of the bow. (I've been taking this measurement on bows for more than 30 years.)
My three shooting fingers span about 2 1/8 inches. So on a bow with the arrow shelf 1 1/4 above the center of the bow, plus my 1/2-inch nock height minus the thickness of the nock, say 1/4 inch, my lower finger will be on the string about 5/8 inch below the center of the bow, placing my middle finger on the string just about in the center of the bow. If the bow shelf is 2 inches above the center of the bow, my lower finger is about 1/8-inch above the center of the bow.
Now, if I switch to split, my two lower fingers are about 1 1/2 inches across so on a bow on which the riser is 1 1/4 inches above the center of the bow, the bottom of my lower finger will be on the string right at the center of the bow. With an arrow shelf 2 inches above center, the bottom of my lower finger will be on the string 3/4 inches above the center of the bow.
I point this out only to demonstrate that where the arrow shelf is cut determines where we place our fingers in relation to the center of the bow, which in turn impacts the vertical torque on the limbs and how we adjust to it by adjusting the tiller (on an ILF) or the nock point.
I should note, too, that my records show that most bowyers who cut the arrow shelf 2 inches above the center of the bow, which makes for equal length limbs, tend to make the bows equal our neutral tiller, whereas most who cut the shelf 1 1/4-inch above center, in which the top limb is longer than the lower limb, give their bows a positive tiller.
I haven't really determined which works best. One would think the 3 under hold on a bow cut 1 1/4 inches above center, which centers the three fingers on the string at the center of the bow, would be best, but I'm not sure that's the case. For me, 3 under seems to work best on bows cut 2 inches above center. Go figure. "
Thanks Orion. I'm starting to understand the relationship between bow center, relative limb strength, and nocking point placement.
I found an answer to one of my questions from DAS dated 5/5/08; Is there an advantage to having the arrow end up almost perpendicular to the string as opposed to needing to locate the nocking point nearly one inch high?
"The goal is to get all the settings as close to the center as possible. In other words, 1/2" of tiller compensated by a 3/4" high nock point is not good even if the bareshafts look reasonable. What you have done is compensated one big error with another big error. Try to work it down so that a small tiller setting is offset or complimented by a small nock point setting. That way your bow is not fighting itself and it will be quieter and vibration free. The better designed your riser is, the closer you can get to zero on everything."
