A couple months ago I was approached for a little project if I could do it. To re-limb a bow that had a bad lower limb. I've never tried anything like that but I love a challenge! So the bow was shipped. Was also given another caviat No performance enhancing material like carbon or carbon weaves. Just good ole glass and wood. Damn'it! LOL

So before I tackle his project decided to do a prototype first. Once I seen the bow I had an old form that it could go in. It was a 60" static form that I built back in the 90's. It was a good little bow and I built a couple the first one I have. It was designed for carbon but never built one.

Anyway first order of business was to see what I had laying around for this project. Don't want to go throwing good rosewood into an experiment. Found some left over grey Superflex from a couple bows, dug up some Red Elm cores and black glass. Next order of business was the form. This fellow has a long draw so decided to add 2" overall to the bow and push the riser farther forward. That will give the bow some nice preload over the original. So here's the start of the 62"XSR. Experimental Static Recurve The original 60". material and form with the original in it after working it

This "client" sounds like a real PITA...heheh...

Here, let's try to brighten that photo up a bit...

Thanks crookedstix. Still not a good shot. I moved the riser forward by an 1-1/4". Course the bow has an overlay and a wrapped leather grip. But you can see where the line of the old nail holes are toward the fades.

Yeah I was talking to the fellow the other day.. Told him he needed to trade his leather underwear in for some Deluth Trading Post underwear. That old design was for carbon. having trouble with it in my working recurves. So I made them quit working LOL. I've toyed with statics a couple times but I'm taking another look at them.

You moved the riser forward, or added more deflex, how is that going to give the bow more preload than the original?

Hope to see the PLAN COME TOGETHER! Keep us in the loop. BLESSED BE! Batman

Your dropping your brace height by moving the riser forward. This brings the string closer to the base of the limbs and will give the bow more brace tension. So the preload is on the string not the limbs. Limbs will actually loose some pre-load because they don't have to be bent so far back to make brace height.

Hang in there BATMAN!

Oldbowyer, Sorry, your logic doesn't make sense to me. If you move the riser forward you will raise the brace height and induce more deflex. How can the preload increase on the string and decrease on the limbs?

Thought I'd throw this in this evening. It's another static I built before the 60" who's form I using now. She's a little energy storing monster, and its only 56". Draws smoother than some of my 64's. But it requires a carbon weave that's been off the market for decades. With out it, it throws the strings!

Riser is glued. It's 3 pieces of scrap. Not sure yet how I want this bow to look like yet.

Well Dale. Maybe we are getting our north and south confused. LOL I'm not always so good sometimes explaining things. If you put an imaginary line horizontally through the grip of the bow. That's your base line. Now I'll admit sometimes I get this confused when talking about it. Everything above this base line is deflex below is reflex. By cutting the form deeper if I'm thinking right I've put more reflex in the riser and have moved my baseline "forward". The throat of the bow will be deeper than the original. Since that's all I changed, it now gives the limbs more deflex. When I brace this new bow I won't have to bend the limbs as much as the original because the throat of the bow is now deeper. This puts the string closer to the limbs. This causes more brace tension. Pull a DFC sometime on one of your bows and run it threw a calculator. Drop your brace say an inch or so. Run another DFC with the new brace height threw the calculator. Doing the same thing with this bow. Only difference is you'll be able to shoot it! LOL

I think it's looking good Todd , and even makes sense ! Lol!

" I've put more reflex in the riser and have moved my baseline forward". The throat of the bow will be deeper than the original. Since that's all I , it now gives the limbs more deflex"

By cutting the riser deeper you have given the riser and the limbs more deflex, not reflex. More deflexed limbs will lessen the tension at brace.

Am I wrong, other bowyers chime in please.

All of these words are just getting in the way! All that matters is that this prototype that Todd's building will temporarily be the world's fastest trad-looking bow. I say "temporarily," because it will then be eclipsed by the one he'll be building for me.

I'd like to give more details, but for now the project must remain shrouded in secrecy. I will say, however, that the riser on this new "world's fastest bow" will be made from a gorgeous piece of tigerwood, that has actually appeared on this forum in previous photos.

We're being especially careful not to let the Koreans, Chinese, or Frisky get wind of this new limb design, for fear that cheap copycats might flood the market. Todd and I are still bickering over whether his prototype, or my bow, will be given the prestigious "001" serial number.

Yes Dale you are correct. I have given the limbs more deflex moving the riser forward. I've also moved the tips of the bow forward. Giving more reflex at the business end. Tell ya what Brother. What kind of energy storage are you getting at 28" of draw? You seem to know bow building.

Well Crooked..... Kinda letting the cat out of the bag on what I'm going to do to that not so..... ain't ya? Gawd awful ugly riser anyway. It needs some help! LOL But we are still dealing with the model T's LMAO

Got the riser block cleaned up put some lines on it tomorrow. See if I can't fit it to the form

Yes...I felt the need to let the world know that something wondrous is about to happen.

Good luck with the new bow guys, can't wait to see it.

Just to answer your question Todd, I've never plotted the energy stored on my bows. Only ever did a FD for the last few inches of draw. I have a short draw and try and maximize my bows for that.

I think crookedstix should buy the 64" Sherrinsky longbow that is on Ebay as we speak. Looks kinda like a candy cane and I bet Frisky is waiting for the last minute to dial in on it.

Looks like another dog in the making, and that longbow is the ugliest bow I've ever laid eyes on. Talk about wasted bandwidth!

Joe

That's the only one of those I built and the last with RH Glass. Guy who bought it still owes my 50 bucks! LOL She's a shooter!

Off to shop

By the end of this venture, we'll have Frisky admitting that my mew Sherrinsky is not just the fastest, but also the best looking trad bow he's ever seen. Best of all, it will just be wood and glass; none of this super recurve carbon nonsense!

Forgot to mention, that's RH glass over carbon on that bow. Checked the records on it this evening. She's capable of blowing 200fps at her draw weight. If one of you leatherwallers pick her up please PM me.

Anyway sawed the riser out and fitted it to the form. Has some of the project bow and some of one of my ILF's in it. Next up was to join the lower cores. I use a scarf joint for this and I also use a 6' level to keep them straight while the glue dries. See if I can't get it into a form tomorrow its all ready to go.

Your working on the wrong end Brother Dale. LOL Its how much its building poundage in the front and how little its building in the back. All the back is showing you is that its smooth and not loosing energy. I pulled the 60" static off the wall this evening. I have an old DFC on it. I dropped the brace 1" which would represent the new brace height of this bow. Old DFC was 6.28# in first 2" of draw. New brace height was 8.92#! As I drew the bow the poundage was higher over the old DFC up to just mid draw or so. At that point it gained less. Old DFC is 42# even at 28". New brace height was 41.54#. It lost almost a half pound. But here are the big numbers. Old DFC at 28" was storing 39.74# @ .9463 S.E./P.D.F. New DFC at 28 was storing 41.245# @ .9929 S.E./P.D.F.. Putting that in English LOL. Old DFC is almost 95% efficient. New DFC broke 99%. We'll have to see what the new bows. PM me sometime would love to see some of your work.

See the entertainment has shown up. Last dog I built was in the top 3 of the Mount Rushmore of speed in Crookedstix testing. So we will see how much of dog this one is. And while I'm thinking about it. Bought a Fire Drake couple months ago. Very interesting bow. I love the thought of its construction. But she was no match against a real bow of bows. Lost by 12fps. I don't like walking like crooked so I used a chrono. Hoping to have crooked's Drake here soon. Yeah I know where its at. I also think I know why it was so damn fast. It was a factory built cheater. Been holding off on that thread though till I have the facts. My Drake for a bow of her time period is quick. But it ain't that quick

Todd, You know I'm a wood guy through and through...but I have to say, I kinda like that gray synthetic stuff you're using on this prototype. That's a pretty good camo pattern and color you've got going on with it.

Hopefully it's fire-resistant as well; the speed of the arrows crossing its shelf might trigger ignition if we're not careful.

Here's the Drake that Todd is referring to; the bow on top. This is the bow, at 50# of draw, that could out-cast every other bow that I had, except the 60# Cari-bow shown below it...but that was when they were both shooting 575-gr. cedars, which obviously favored the Tuktu...and the margin was very small. But the Drake was beating Spitfires, Tice & Watts, Safaris, Ocalas, Wings, and Howatts that were all heavier draw weights.

I had a 62# 1959 Grizzly, and again, using those same 575-gr. cedars, the Drake and the Grizz were landing arrows side-by-side.

Rumor has it that this Drake, the current holder of the title of "World's Fastest TRULY Trad Bow, Because Borders Aren't," is somewhere on the West Coast of North America. Todd has been trying to track it down and get it in his laboratory for study and testing, but it remains elusive. If he succeeds in building a faster bow, using just wood and glass, I've promised to buy him a beer and a crown.

So did that Drake have that awful turquoise glass on the backing and kind of a camo job over off white on the belly side. Serial number 8 thousand and something. Couple drill holes in the riser Like this one?

Off to shop

Egad--somehow you've gotten your hands on it! That's the one!

Be gentle with it; it's a bow for the ages. And I'll be very interested to hear your take on it. I can send you some pom-poms for that string if you need...

OK, bow snot on and into the oven she went. A couple hours or so later and here we go. LOL Don't look like all that much does it. Think you need to quit counting your chickens before they are hatched crooked! LOL

Did have a quick look at that Drake. I've got 2 different bows. My bow serial number 5261. Is very sleek pretty plain Jane as far as contours go. Construction though ain't. Your old one is a beast. Has a lot of similarities to the not so..... that I'm going to whack the limbs off of soon. But limb construction is the same overall style. Other than my suspicion of why its so damn fast. Will know soon enough. Looks like my thread will be a tale of two Drakes! LMAO

There's only one Drake and one other bow worth mentioning in this thread, and you're looking at them right here!

Joe

That proto has some intriguing lines--almost like a 62" version of a cross between a Browning Safari and a Bob Lee Thunderbolt, but even hookier! I'll be interested to see the draw force curve on this one, and the draw weight for that matter.

I notice that Frisky's Drake needs some of my custom wool string puffs..I'll start a pair immediately.

Why would you want to slow it down more crookedstix? Besides its probably never shot anyway. Noticed its way over tillered also. Seems to run in the Drake and the not so..... family. Look at the string and limb bases. That factory reject Bear though looks pretty balanced

Got some work done today. Pulled the DFC. Not the energy monster I was hoping for. Its more than Dads though and a ton more than the not so...... At 38.8#@28" its almost storing 97% at .9673. The project bow 43.90 after I worked the limbs only stores .8855. See if I can't getting it shooting tomorrow. Be a good heads up on the chronograph

Friki if this new limb does what I think it will do be more than happy to lop the limbs off of that bow and put some real limbs on it for you. Neither one of those Drakes can break 92%. Old Harry used an old bowyers trick on Crookeds old bow. Something a flight bow master would know

I just got to thinking I'll take my old hackberry stave and make a bow out of it. At least I know how to shape a good grip. Except for Bear and Drake, I haven't seen a good grip yet. This dumpy thing shown above is a prime example!

Joe

Well see if I can't fix that today. Weather no good for anything else

Here's the Thunderbolt (top), Safari (middle). and Todd's prototype (bottom). I can't remember if the T-Bolt was a 54" or a 56" bow--too short either way! The Safari is a 60" bow, and the proto is a 62" bow.

So Todd, if I'm reading this efficiency stuff right...it seems that your prototype, at 38#, would be storing as much energy as a mediocre 45# bow, like a K-mag or Frisky's Hunter Flight?

This could be a godsend for Frisky; I happen to know that his shoulder isn't what it used to be. One of your bows at 38# would be a much better choice for his declining years, if he'd be willing to swallow his pride and ask you to build him one...

Would'nt that be an FN hoot. Me building a bow for Friski. When did hell freeze over? I do like the looks though of the Safari. If I build any more of these see about getting rid of that horn in the sight window or at least straighten it out. I've never pulled a DFC on that Bear or the tooth pick. My guess is yeah this one is storing more energy. Stores more than Dads bows. Storing and delivering though 2 different things as I'm learning. But the storage is there and she has some great hooks!

Let me add one more thing here. A bows poundage has nothing to do with its DFC. You take any given design whether its 35# or 65# its going to pull the same DFC. A DFC is not the whole story on what a bow is going to do. A DFC is a great tool in showing how a bow is building and storing its poundage. And if its stacking or not.

Anyway getting late. Did not get the bow clocked today weather was crap. Have the riser contoured and a couple coats of filler. Bow tillered at 38.6#. Done a Groves trick. Marked it lighter LMAO.

Todd, how close was your bow to the tiller you wanted when you took it out of the form? Did you have to do much of any shaving on top or bottom to get it the way you wanted it?

He obviously missed weight too low and won't admit it. Typical bowyer. Can't get the weight he wants because he doesn't know how to do it. I mean, you spend a lifetime trying to build a bow and you fall short on weight because you never learned the ropes. Typical of bowyers, they all think they're the best, yet they all suck apples! Stop and think of all the bowyers who have gotten mad at me for telling it like it is. Oldbowyer, JD, Larry, Maddog, Fred, Big Jim, Toby and a bunch of selfbowyers. All got upset because they lacked the stuff Drake was made of! If I've offended any other bowyers and didn't get you on the list, my apologies.

Joe

I think he missed weight low so you would have an outside chance to get it to full draw one time while shaking,red faced and dribbling in your shorts.

LOL! So many folks wish they could shoot like me! I can't wait to build that hackberry bow to teach these bowyers a lesson or two.

Joe

Frisky, you are so right. You are the legend Byron Ferguson was talking about in his book. I never met an archer before you to "Become the arrow". While driving.

Teasing

BTW, interesting handle shape.

Frisky, you couldn't offend me... your not that good. I have been taking crap, deserved or not my entire career, and on top of that I'm married. You can't compare to the best offenders!

Besides, I never said I knew anything about building bows, but I do know alot about offensive people!

BigJim

BigJim- You're in denial! Oldbowyer is the only bowyer I've offended worse than you! I'm the KING of offenders when it comes to offending bowyers, and you all deserve it! In your case, you just might be an excellent bowyer, I don't hear complaints, but you keep falling asleep on stand, and I'm just trying to save your life by waking you up! You ought to thank me!

Joe

It was only an 1/8" off from where I wanted, why it lost a couple ounces on the draw. Its tillered at 1/8" heavy lower limb not the 1" like the Drakes and the project bow.

I know your chomping at the bit for this looks like a good afternoon put the numbers to the damn thing see what I have.

Off to shop. Friski you might want to stave off on that stave. You might need a good club one of these days.

Ok bow clocked, have the finish on it.

She shook out very well. A few weeks ago after I re-worked the limbs on the project bow. Took that gawd awful amount of tiller out of it. Dropped the bow to 43.9#. Drew smooth as glass and no handshock with a fast flight on it. Shot it against 3 of my bows that were a little lighter than it is by a pound or two. It managed 3rd place beating the 60" static that I modeled this bow after shooting a 380 grain carbon arrow. It gave me a good idea on the bows performance. The spread between all the bows was only 4fps or so. No slouch was the conclusion. Strung her back up this evening running the same 10stand fast flight string no silencers.. the 62" also had a 10 strand fast flight no silencers. brace heights were at 7.5" on both bows. Project bow is 43.9@28 challenger is 38.6#@28 shooting 380grs. A full 5# under the project bow. Project bow picked up a couple fps this evening. That happens when you use a chronograph out side with out special lighting. Why I always shoot bows against each other. Anyway project bow comes in at an average of 183fps top arrow 185fps. It took 2nd place this evening, first looser. New bows average 185fps top arrow 187fps. So at 5# lighter it out shot the project bow on average by 2fps. I put some 268gr arrows in the 62". Average 202fps top arrow 204fps! This bow only weighs 22oz. No handshock either and a lot quieter than my working recurves I think that's beating my 64" carbon limbed ILF Peirce Point I built also. Best I ever got out of it was 202 at 40#@28. Bodymanbowyer got a 203 out of it. Gonna have to run those 2 soon! LOL

But anyway Crooked ain't that about right to take that Drake flight bow. 5# lighter beating the heavier bows? I'm convinced that bow was worked over for competition flight shooting. If memory serves there is a 50# class. If my theory holds your project bow "could be" faster yet per pound then this one.

Well Friski your amusement value is only surpassed by your ignorance.

Unveil this tomorrow! LMAO

Yes, the numbers would be welcome! I'm imagining one of my Forgewoods coming out of this new bow at a modest speed...say about 275 fps...and zipping through a fine 7 x 7 bull elk in Colorado this fall.

In this fantasy of mine, Pdiddly will be watching in amazement, wishing he had a bow like mine. Also watching will be Haley, the lovely waitress from the pizza shop in Telluride. So as you can see, there's a lot at stake with this bow design. I'm counting on you, Todd!

Looks like we posted at the same time, LOL! Those are some very interesting numbers--of course I'm deeply suspicious of chronographs, but nonetheless it's looking really promising.

And yes, when I had that Drake, I would have shot it against any other 60's bow that was five pounds heavier, and expected it to have more cast than the heavier bow.

My other fantasy is that Frisky will soon be ordering one of these prototypes of yours in a 40# weight, so that he will finally have an elk-worthy weapon and can join Peter and I in Colorado this fall.

Those bows are nothing special. The "new" bow is shooting an arrow, just under 10 grains per pound of pull, at 185fps. It's probably being drawn past 28" too. That's with a 10 strand, FF string and nothing on it. Silence it with some light weight puffs, and it's already down to 180 and still loud as a howitzer. My Drake and Bear are faster than that, by far! Like I said- these bowyers are all sizzle, no steak.

Joe

Bears only run 30 miles per hour and Drake Mallards get up to about 60 MPH.Todds bow will beat your fat donut fed Circus Bear and clipped wing puddle duck Drake easily!

Speaking of light weight puffs, I notice that your Drake's string doesn't have any on it. Add those, and it might not even be fast enough for the arrow to escape the string!

Nonetheless, I'll be the first to admit that speed isn't everything. Once Todd finishes my bow, I'll take immediate steps to slow it down. The fast-flight string will be replaced with a Dacron hawser that's thick and strong enough to moor a tugboat with. My string puffs will require an entire beaver pelt to make, and will look like a couple of caterpillar nests on the string. Complete the package with some 12-gpp ash arrows, and viola--the perfect and authentically "trad" setup! I may even need to buy a fedora just to carry such a bow.

However, the bow's inherent speed, combined with my apelike draw length, will overcome all these obstacles. The arrow will leave it swiftly and silently, and the elk will fall. The only noise I'm worried about might be a small sonic boom as the arrow leaves the string.

Well according to a converter calculator 180fps is 122.7mph. 60 mph (if the snail can do that) is 88fps even. Looks like if I was over 170fps with a rope and silencers still beat the Drake.

Don't know if crooked shoots to the east or west. If its west Friski might want to keep his head down. Even when crooked puts the 2 barrel carb on this LS454 Corvette!

I have little doubt that if this bow was shot properly at AMO she'd be knocking the door at 200fps. But we will ever know. Showed it to a fellow at work today and he had to have it. So testing is done with this one. Be up to crookedstix in a few weeks

Sounds like you better keep making those "prototypes"--you may have a hard time hanging on to one! I think you'll find there's a pretty brisk market for 40# rocket-launchers. Can't wait to see what it looks like with a real stick of wood in the riser!

Of course you didn't put serial #001 on that guy's bow...did you? You're saving that for mine...right? Heheh...and by the way if you finish mine in time, you should take it to Cloverdale with you just so a few other guys can have the privilege of shooting the world's fastest trad bow, before you mail it away to me. That way we'll have a few witnesses to just how special it is, and it won't just be your word and mine against all the Doubting Friskys out there.

Sounds like a sweet little speed demon Todd

OK kept this in the dark long enough LMAO. Here is the project bow. A not so fast FASCO. The glass on the lower limb is fracturing along the middle of it on a center weave. Still has sound glass against the cores. Why I've been able to play with it, but it isn't long for this world. Just a matter time. Think what I found most interesting about this limb is how thin it is for the poundage of the bow. It also has no taper in the cores. Its going to get a pretty good shave and a hair cut to go into the form. Going to preserve the grip though. Only thing this bow has going for it.

Planning on doing a build along on this one also. I'll leave the bowyerees out of it. I apologize to everyone but Friski if I sound like I'm all that and a bag chips. I just like sharing what I'm doing and why. Even if can't seem to explain things right I'm sorry if it is sounding uppity. Ole crookestix keeps wanting the impossible while keeping my hands tied behind my back. So I'm thinking a good ole Leather Wall roasting is in order. LMAO

Anyway crookedstix since I know the history of this bow I can't wait to whack the limbs off of it and turn into a Drake spanker. But you can't fix stupid as far as the doubting Friski's go. But I see no need in taking a model T to Cloverdale. Remember what I done to the prototype! Hehehe

The above FASCO was built by Skookum. This fraudulent "bowyer" (I hesitate to use that term to describe such an unworthy fella) is saying Skookum built a bow with nothing going for it but the grip! Talk about guts! The Fraudulent One doesn't know a good grip from a horse's tetuti! He needs to learn from Skookum and get his act together!

Joe

Guess I forgot something the finished shots of the bow LMAO. Sorry the damn thing looks blue. Piss poor camera and lighting! LOL. The Baby Drake Spanker. Oh I forgot I've already spanked a Fire Drake. BADLY.

Told ya "skippy" was going to put your panties in a wad. Looks like I'm doing a fine job! LMAO. Did not know that Mr. Anderson had built the bow. Damn shame it broke. Real damn shame. My guess is though unlike you he is a man of honor. I think seeing one of his bows resurrected by the hands of another "bowyer" would put a smile on his face. Think he'd really laugh his off if it put a nail in that Drake cheater

Hey crookedstix. Why don't you post the last bow you designed with the inlay pattern of the first one with that leather grip. Leave the I beam out. They're a joke anyway

Yes, that's my poor old FASCO with the broken limb. I had long ago given up on ever shooting it again...until I got talking with Todd about the possibility of re-limbing it.

When he said he thought it might work, I wasted no time in mailing the FASCO to him for a closer look...and once he had it, he confirmed that it was worth a try. That's when he dove into the process of building a prototype first, as a warm-up to make sure that my FASCO would be getting the best possible limbs that wood and glass could create.

The above data from the chrono testing of his prototype speaks for itself. Anyone who remembers the chrono tests that Jason D. ran back in March of 2016 might recall his results for a 46# Kodiak Magnum and a 41# Drake Hunter-Flight: 164.7 fps for the K-Mag; 163.2 fps for the Drake--and both were using 9-gpp arrows.

Compare those numbers to what Todd just got from his 38# proto: 185 fps using 10-gpp arrows! Kind of a quantum difference in speed.

But, as I always say, speed is not the only variable to consider. Both the K-Mag and the Hunter Flight are short, ugly, Evil Dwarf Bows; whereas the Scherrinsky Phoenix that will soon arise from the ashes of that lovely old FASCO will be a full-sized 62"bow; a paragon of performance and beauty.

Here's what Todd is referring to; one of several ideas we kicked around in terms of possible directions to go with his prototype, with some black leather and phenolic accents to dress up that gray Actionwood riser.

If you think MY Hunter-Flight shoots 163fps, at 9gpp, you're insane! That's 76er speed, and I'd actually expect this piece of junk under construction to be near that speed!

Joe

Kinda like this...a little bit smoother in the lines than the proto was, and just a bit more of an eye-catcher.

Of course I hesitated to even mention Jason's test, knowing the pain it would cause you. Heheh. I expected some squawking, but numbers don't lie.

Helll think I've got a 35# 48" that I built for Dad take those with 380grs. Least now I don't have to track down a Hunter Flight

Now for a really classic look, here's what Todd should be building in that form--a real wood riser; something like cocobolo with maple pinstripe lams...and of course turquoise 3M fiberglass on the limbs!

Egad's! Its a turquois tooth pick! Least this one will run LMAO

Frisky I've never gotten mad at you, literally ever, about your comments about my skills or any other bowyers. I'm not now, but blatant lies is another thing. You and I have never talked.

Back to the broken bow. Interested is seeing how you remove all but the orginal riser. Then of course seeing the mating of the new limbs with it.

Yes, I'm glad you asked!

I happen to know that Todd is gone for a week or so, on some silly motorcycle trip to South Carolina. So even though I know squat about bowyering, I'll act like I do until he gets back...and then I'll step back in the bushews and watch him work on the old FASCO.

First off, Todd must have been sniffing too much epoxy when he said that the FASCO's grip was the "...only thing this bow has going for it." The nerve!! He had already posted about how, even with a half-broken limb, it was right in the mix with his fastest bows. It was always a very fast bow, and especially for back in the 60's--in fact Skookum told me it was the second fastest one that Mullaney ever tested back then. But--I'll forgive Todd for that cruel remark, since I still need a lot from him, LOL.

Now let's get down to M60's question: How are we going to get these new, even faster limbs on it? As you can see, the bow isn't a very good fit in Todd's form. I told him all he needed to do was take a chisel and gouge the heck out of his form so the riser could drop down into it. I won't repeat his response to this suggestion; but anyway we won't be doing that...

My thinking is that we can make the bold move of running the FASCO riser through the band saw, making it into two pieces that match the curve of Todd's form (i.e. along the yellow line). That will give us a curve on the upper (belly) piece that fits his form nicely...

Then, he can lay up the limbs, with the core being a single piece of tapered rock maple, just the way Harold Groves would've done it. Glue in a limb is just dead weight, to my way of thinking...and if that's right, it may be why Actionwood limb cores always seem so doggy to me; the darn things are half glue!

We're going to do a wee bit of cosmetic work on the belly side of the riser as well, just to get the curves the way we want them. So at the end of this step, we'll have the new limbs bonded to the belly half of the riser. Even at this stage of the work, I'm quite sure it would out-perform any of Frisky's bows. But there's one last thing to do...

...which of course is to reunite the back half of the riser with the front. I'm not sure this second glue-up operation will be accomplished; that will be Todd's problem--as I said, I'm not the bowyer, I'm the PITA client. He may have to whittle a custom gluing jig for all I know.

But, I'm optimistic that this could work. The Horne bows are built in similar fashion, with the limb cores running through the middle of the riser...and they are fast as all get-out!

As with the belly side, there will be a bit of cosmetic work needed to blend the back piece of the riser into the new limbs. By this point, Todd will probably be disgusted enough to just mail it back to me, and I will finish it with my own rasp.

I actually think it will be a fine-looking riser, with all that great tigerwood and a center lam of rock maple with black glass on either side of the maple. So--in theory--we will have combined great looks with great performance, and made the world's best bow--the Scherrinsky Phoenix. That's my plan, anyway; all I need Todd to do is follow it slavishly.

People- Don't listen to Maddog! He got mad at me and is still mad at me! Why do you think they call him Maddog? All the bowyers think they're special. They all think their bow is the best! Then I come along, with the true best bows, and they blow gaskets. Shumkinski is the worst, and he can't build a bow for squat! My hackberry bow is gonna beat anything he ever made.

Joe

Joe, you're forgetting that Todd's natural abilities are now being enhanced by my creative suggestions. This moves him into a whole new category, LOL.

By the way, I must give credit where credit is due: two years ago, a midnight text from none other than Joe Frisk was what tipped me off to this FASCO! I saw his alert at daybreak...and since the sun rises in Maine first, I was able to snap it up while the rest of America was still asleep.

Frisky is on record as telling me that this particular bow is his favorite one-piece riser ever--so pay no attention to any future criticisms he might offer; it will still be a thing of speed and beauty.

Yes, I knew a good bow when I saw it, but Fred messed up on the limbs. That's why it broke. If Harry or Mart had made that bow, it would never have broken.

Joe

Actually Frisky, I didn't think I was special until you named Maddog among that group of bowyers for whom I have such high regard. It's hard to stay humble getting that sort of esteem.

No, I'm pretty sure it broke because I braced it too high. The tips on the original were fully 5-1/2" ahead of the deepest point of the grip. It wanted a brace down around 7", but for some reason I decided to try it at 8"...which put it under a ton of brace tension; it took about all my strength just to string it that high. After about ten shots, I noticed that the glass was starting to rearrange itself...my bad.

I'm confessing to this blunder on the off-chance that it might save someone else from doing the same. Luckily, I have Todd on board with trying to bring it back to life.

That makes sense cutting the riser but there is no extra material to compensate for the saw kerf. Personally I would need a couple belts of an alcoholic beverage to have the nerve to wack that riser.

No, the center maple/glass lam should refill the saw kerf quite nicely I think. If Todd chooses to do it this way, I should add!

This project reminds me of some advice my automotively-saavy late brother-in- law gave me.

I had been relating a long list of mechanical issues with my Ford Ranger. He listened patiently then suggested that I jack up the radiator cap and slide in everything else underneath... then drop the cap back in place!

I see while the cat's away the mice will play LMAO

I'll look at that idea Kerry. But the form shot your working with is before I dropped the form even more. That form comes right down on the old nail holes. My only other concern is the stress that will run through it. Might pop that part of the riser off. It would though be the best way to preserve most of the riser. Building a new bow string for the 62"XSR before I take it to its new owner in the morning. I'll have a look at the idea. But you need to quit counting your chickens before they are hatched, it ain't built yet LOL

Well Friski I don't know who the fellow was that tested the Kodiak and the Hunter Flight. That ole Kodiak did not beat the Snail by all that much, just looking at the numbers. The slowest reading I have gotten off of this new bow is 179FPS@10gpps. That's a lot of whop coming out of 38# and pretty much puts the other two at the back of the bus.

Sorry crookedstix. It ain't going to work. Wish it would. Problem lies in that it won't make the 20" I need to make the fadeout mark. It will change the whole dynamic of the limb. But I'll still see what I can do.

Decided today in all fairness while I was building strings to put a Dacron rope on the bow along with a set of Kerry Hardy Kustom Drag Chutes and re-clock the bow. Wish I could post one of those shooting videos. Damn thing was longbow quiet. Far cry from anything Dad or I have built in a recurve. She shook out at this. 10strand B-50, silencers at 1/3rd down the string, same 380gr four fletched carbons, 7.5" brace. 167-172fps. IMHO that's still some good punch coming out of a bow under 40#

Looks like even after chocking the crap out of it, its still spanking the Holy Snail! LMAO

It's good to have an honest man at the chronograph! And good to see the differences that things like string materials and silencers can make in terms of speed.

Now just think--your second prototype can have the carbon weave on the limbs, low-stretch string, minimal silencers, and be back up flirting with 190 fps.

Maybe you need to give the FASCO one of those Harry Drake/Harold Groves riser extender shims. My 1968 Spitfire gains about 8" more between the true fadeouts because of those shims. Okay I'll shut up with the bright ideas now! Do what you need to; I'll be brave.

I don't do power lams or tip wedges! So your just going to have to suck it up butter cup! LOL

If this one had an .030 carbon-uni lam on the back. it would have been 40+ pounds with even lighter limb mass weight. With just the fast flight string would probably be knocking the door at 200fps@10gpp over that at 9gpp. Chocked down should make 180's.

But I'll save the carbon for the other bow design. Putting my Dads out house window theory to a static limb might give those Border and Uukaha boys a run for their money. "If" I decide to build it. I like this new bow a lot, wish I'd come up with it back in the 90's when I was building full time. The other design I have will beat this one. But been chasing speed all my life and have done a pretty good job of it. But at some point in time you just have to say WTF for. I like this one needs some tweaking here and there. But not much

I do want to thank you Kerry and your leather underwear for getting me out of my "carbon" box. It's going to be fun if the bow comes out and spanks ole Harry at his own game

Hi folks!

I’m the guy that tested the 41 pound Drake Hunter flight and 45-ish pound 1962 Kodiak magnum.

As was mentioned, outdoor lighting definitely affects chronograph readings plus a myriad of other things I suspect like battery power and who knows what else. I tend to try to do comparisons on the same day during the same time of day.

Those measurements were all drawn to 28 inches. With the finger release and Dacron on strings. I cannot remember what the string count was or whether or not they had silencers. I would imagine I would try to control for those variables. Can’t remember how many gpp it was But I remember adding a little bit of weight to the tips of the Kodiak magnum arrows.

As it works out, I stumbled on this thread today because I did a search for FireDrake as I just bought one at the Baltimore Bowman shoot this past weekend! :-) 66 inch, 36 pound. It has the riser fade out and recurve limb power laminations. I think about a 1964…?

Anyway, out of curiosity, later today I’m going to put it through the chronograph and compare it to my Uukha VX-1000 super curve limbs that are about the same draw weight. I’m not going to bother trying to pull it back 28” (like Frisky, I’m getting old and weak). I’ll use my draw length of 26 1/2 inches. I think I have 12 strand Dacron strings that will fit on both bows.

I included a pic. Note the lovely turquoise glass Frisky!

Hi folks!

I’m the guy that tested the 41 pound Drake Hunter flight and 45-ish pound 1962 Kodiak magnum.

As was mentioned, outdoor lighting definitely affects chronograph readings plus a myriad of other things I suspect like battery power and who knows what else. I tend to try to do comparisons on the same day during the same time of day.

Those measurements were all drawn to 28 inches. With the finger release and Dacron on strings. I cannot remember what the string count was or whether or not they had silencers. I would imagine I would try to control for those variables. Can’t remember how many gpp it was But I remember adding a little bit of weight to the tips of the Kodiak magnum arrows.

As it works out, I stumbled on this thread today because I did a search for FireDrake as I just bought one at the Baltimore Bowman shoot this past weekend! :-) 66 inch, 36 pound. It has the riser fade out and recurve limb power laminations. I think about a 1964…?

Anyway, out of curiosity, later today I’m going to put it through the chronograph and compare it to my Uukha VX-1000 super curve limbs that are about the same draw weight. I’m not going to bother trying to pull it back 28” (like Frisky, I’m getting old and weak). I’ll use my draw length of 26 1/2 inches. I think I have 12 strand Dacron strings that will fit on both bows.

I included a pic. Note the lovely turquoise glass Frisky!

That's actually sky blue glass, same as mine. It just looks turquoise due to yellowing of the finish.

Joe

Sky blue. Roger that.

White on the belly.

I did an informal set of chronograph tests today to compare the speed of my new Firedrake to other bows I have of the same weight, using the same arrows and similar Dacron 12 strand strings. Thought you might be interested.

Sovereign Lady mercury, 62 inch, 35 pounds was the slowest.

Fasco 750, 66 inch, 36 pounds averaged just 1 foot per second faster Then the Lady Mercury.

Bear Kodiak Deluxe 60 inch 35 pounds averaged 4 feet per second faster than the Fasco.

Drake, Firedrake averaged 7 feet per second faster than the bear Kodiak Delux.

Uukha VX 1000 super curve limbs on 23 inch Hoyt EXcel riser was only 3 feet per second faster than the Drake!

I’ve chronoed a lot of vintage bows and this lot did not include one of the fastest bows I’ve shot which was the 63 inch 1961 Kodiak Special. That is a significantly fast bow and could possibly beat the Drake. I’ve got a 30 pounder and a 40 pound 61 KS so maybe I will chrono them and split the difference to see how close it comes to the 35 pound Drake.

All very interesting and nothing more than just a bunch of fun. :-) The pic shows the bows in order from slowest to fastest

And just because they’re pretty…

The chronograph thing is fun but when you start comparing what I came up with a few years ago with what you are coming up with today using your draw/shooting style, draw length differences and who knows what kind of weather and lighting conditions and all the other variables that affect bow speed, the comparisons are really impossible to make. That’s why I mixed a bunch of bows in today with the test of my Firedrake so you folks could take a look at how it compares to other bows.

I think my arrows are at about nine or 10 grand per pound but I don’t really know. I could get them to 10 grains per pound to compare them to the speeds of the Hunterflight and Kodiak mag however it still will not quite be the same and I would not trust those old speed ratings I came up with in 2016. I would need to retest the Hunter flight and the Kodiak mag today under the same conditions to feel confident that I was actually comparing apples to apples.

I’m also very interested in this thread Todd because this summer I’d like to build a version of the 1961, 63 inch Kodiak Special. But I’m thinking about making some tweaks to it like you have done here with Kerry’s Fasco. Likely I will post a whole separate thread on that as I’m always looking for guidance from people who have gone before. Would love to pick your brain Todd if you ever felt so inclined to share some info you’ve gained From your bow building!

Thanks for sharing what you did here Todd and everybody else too! Big fun!

BTW how is Carrie’s goncalvo alves FASCO rebuild bow coming...?

Jason

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