Hey guys, new to the leatherwall. Spend a lot of time over on the Bowsite.

I'm in the middle of switching over to a longbow. Was going to be hunting with it this fall but thought I would do bear and turkey this spring with my compound. HOWEVER....I've been having so much fun shooting my longbow I haven't been able to pick up the compound. I think I have myself talked into hunting bear and turkey with it in a couple months. I'm shooting almost daily. I need to be confident enough with it to make the switch. Here is my question, and I know this will vary for everyone but looking to see what you all find acceptable. What kind of groups do you guys get with 3 arrows 20 yards? Whats your opinion of a "good" group that you would feel comfortable hunting with? I have a bear hunt in Sask in June, first trip up there so its a big deal to me. I want to make sure I'm on par if I take that bow up there. The thought of taking my compound just isn't doing it for me. Thanks!

How big are the vitals on a Bear and how much of that area is exposed to allow you to hit it? Can you keep all 3 arrows in a group that size or smaller at 20 yards? That's your answer.

Same as any other aimal or any other shooting situation.

Shooting at a live critter is totally different than grouping arrows on a target. If you hunt with your stick, you won't have the crutch of sights and a trigger at crunch time.

Regardless, if you want to hunt with your longbow, do it. When you get an opportunity, if the shot feels good, take it. If it doesn't, don't.

I recommend practicing on smaller game if possible before hunting big game. Turkeys would be a good prelude to your bear hunt. Good luck.

"What kind of groups do you guys get with 3 arrows 20 yards? Whats your opinion of a "good" group that you would feel comfortable hunting with? "

Pictured is a group from 20 yards and i will post it to answer your questions from my perspective.

If you want to go for Bear hunt, I would shoot at bear target to get used to the anatomy of it. You can train shooting at it broadside or quartering away to understand your limitations. "Grouping" is just a tool to measure your consistency. Who cares if you can group in 3" outside the killing zone?

Being able to hit what you're looking at is the basis of shooting any weapon. The closer you can get to the center of the target is usually a good thing. Mediocrity is not a goal, so you have to judge for yourself whether you're good enough or not. And, no matter how good you shoot, you can always do better by developing solid, repeatable form. If you build that, then you won't have to worry about it.

First shot is the shot that counts. Turkey's are a 10-12 yard shot. Not very dificult.

Bear hunts over bait (?) can be in that 12-15 yard range also. Groups don't count, it's the first arrow.

Bowmania

Good luck and welcome.

Although true it is the first arrow that counts, grouping arrows does measure "repeatability" in one's form. I believe that is necessary to make the first shot count. When the moment of truth arrives, you shouldn't even have to think about it..it should just happen, and be successful through your training.

In law enforcement, we spent hundreds of hours on the range for that exact reason.

My first goal would be 3 arrows in a 6" circle at 20 yards each and every shot from every angle and position. Then build on that.

The key question is "what kind of group can you shoot at 20y under pressure" shooting relaxed at home can lead you into a false sense of security.

Once you start shooting good groups, use your imagination to add some pressure and see if you can keep it together, something simple like someone watch you shoot can give you some indication, lot of other ways also like stretching out the distance to 30y even if you only intend to hunt at 20y.

I would say consistent sub-five-inch groups at 20 yards will get the job done. As stated already,the first shot at game is what matters. Try this, sting your bow and shoot five arrows. I always do this before hunting. Next, wait an hour or so and shoot one arrow, preferably at a 3D target. Judge if you are ready by that shot.

Put a 3D target out near where you park your vehicle, on the way out to work pick up your bow and shoot 1 cold shot at the target, put the bow back in the house and leave. Move the target around daily so that you never shoot the same shot twice, change distance and angles. Groups show consistency but it's the one shot that counts, shoot your groups in the evening when you get back.

Groups prove consistency, consistency translates to relative accuracy.

I don't shoot groups! The goal is to put ONE arrow where you want it first shot....everytime!

I'm not the greatest shot. I have always heard it's not good to shoot groups but one thing I like to do is try to hit the nock of the first arrow I shot into the target. Kind of helps to concentrate on a particular spot.

Take some shots, take a look at your worst arrow. Now decide if your ready to use that shot on an animal.

I haven't the first clue why anyone would say that it wasn't good to shoot groups.

It is good to shoot groups, but which shot in the group is the best one? Likely it gets better as it goes, which does not much for performing one time cold under maximum pressure. Groups will help you get to that point, but you have to be able to stand and deliver. Your brain will do best what it does most of the time, and there most likely won't be a second or third shot or however many it takes for you to get hot.

True, fdp..but this is the Leatherwall and it defies convention. Groups show consistency, and the first arrow will always be better if you're good at shooting groups. Luck should be a deciding factor.

The great thing about the internet is if the opinion you are reading or looking at doesn't agree with yours it is easy enough to look around and find one that does.

I agree that shooting groups is a very good tool to learn consistency and focus. But I do not shoot groups at dots on the target. Paint the whole target black, then pick a spot on it to hit. Then if you can hit the same spot great.

In my case I put 1 or 2 arrows into 1 spot, then find a new spot. Being able to group for target archery is great, but being able to pick a random spot it better and harder to do. Also as other have said, change the angle of your shots so you learn how to shoot a stickbow at different angles.

Good luck and shoot strait!

In the end, only you can decide if you’re confident in your self. I know that’s not much help but it is what it is. Good luck to you and welcome to the fun side of archery!!

If you are going to shoot groups, you don't have to stand in one spot and shoot at the same angle, from the same distance on every shot. All you have to do, even if you are shooting at an indoor 300 target is move and change angles. You are still shooting groups, but every shot is different. It works even better for me, and a number of really successful bowhunters I know, then standing in front of a target and picking a random spot, from the same distance, and the same angle.

One of the absolute most difficult things to do in shooting a bow is understanding the difference that angles make, and how your POA has to change to accommodate those angles.

First, keep 3 shots in a standard size paper plate ( 8") at 20 yards (or 15 yards). . Aboutsize of kill zones ( 8 ring) on deer size 3d targets ( close enough).

After being able to do that at 20 yards, put a small paper plate (5-6" diameter). If you can put three in a small plate ( especially the first arrow), you should have all the accuracy for your hunting.

After that, cut the larger plate in quarters and hit that. Then quarter the small plate and hit that. Then, aim for the 3 "points" on the quatered plates at 20 yards.

Cheap targets. Good fun.

One of the targets my muzzle loading club would use is a 50 yard target cut in half. Scoring was X, 10,9,8,7,6,5 (outer ring), then "0" outside the 5-ring.

The X, was there, but only half of it.

You had to take 5 shots, highest score wins. A miss on the straight cut side of the target was a "O". Half round ball had to be "in" to get the higher value ring ( to make equal playing field guys shooting .32 caliber to .58+ caliber). I used either a .45 or .50 caliber flintlock.

Try that with archery. Make your own X-10-9-8-7-6-5 scoring rings, and then cut the target right in half. Go ahead, go for the "X" ring. All shots count.

Got to have some fun practicing.

Shooting groups come from taking Rick Welches shooting school. He frowns on it and says only shoot one arrow like it is the only shot you're going to get. Then move and shoot one arrow from a different distance.

6" groups at 20 yds, 5", 3" at 30 - that is crazy talk. Bull-oney.

If you could keep most of your shots in a 10" group you could win your state indoor championship in the longbow class. I won a bunch of them doing no about that.

Now there are moments when I could put one arrow in a dixie cup. A hunting shot with deep focus can be uncannily accurate.

I say if you can keep most of your shots on a paper plate (with no dot in the middle) at 15 or 20 yards, you are good to go hunting at those distances. - lbg

Groups can tell you a lot about what your doing but that first arrow will tell you more. Just my opinion.

Guys -

The "we dont need no stinkin' groups" fallacy in these threads is that if you can't shoot consistent groups at a given distance, any of the one shot and move bullshit is going to be little more than an exercise in futility.

To the OP, when I was hunting, most of my arrows in a 6" group at 20 yards was the break point to know I was ready. Oddly enough that's about the size of the 4 ring on the NFAA target, Put 2 and 2 together.

Viper out.

Thanks guys. Lots of good stuff. As I re read my question and saw some of the answers I realized it was kind of stupid and I asked the wrong thing. I know what the vitals are and what accuracy is needed so I worded it wrong. However I still did get the answer I was looking for. I should have asked...."what kind of groups do you guys shoot at 20 yards?"

When I shot my compound at 20 yards.....a "miss" would be off by 2". Being used to groups like that I was trying to figure out...how good can I be and what is everyone else shooting that they feel confident enough to hunt with. Currently I can shoot about a 8" group at 20 with 4-5 arrows but if I shoot 6 arrows.....one of them will be a "miss" and when I miss with my longbow I'm not even on the paper. Those arrows are the ones that scare me! That sort of thing never happened with my compound and usually a "miss" was still a vital hit. Ive got to eliminate that oddball shot i throw out there.

Amazing what 5 yards will do though....at 15 yards I can shoot 5 arrows in a 5" group pretty consistently. Still long way to go but its getting better and better. Thanks for the input.

The one thing I make sure of is make sure the animal is not the first shot you have taken before the hunt. Morning or Evening hunts I shoot before leaving. Morning hunts I have a target right outside my garage door and I shoot 20 shots or so before leaving for the woods.

Viper is spot on, if you wont or can't shoot groups, you're just in denial. You don't need groups to Bowhunt but they do help you figure if your Form is both consistent and accurate and goes a long way to building confidence.

I would suggest mixing it up, one day shooting groups and one day random one arrow shots. Some days I leave my bow in the doorway and pick it up every few hours to do a cold shot, other days I'm working on Groups, another distance estimation and shot sequence. Mixing it up on different days keeps it interesting and helps you stay focused and helps identify weak areas in your shooting.

Like I said in previous post the hardest thing to train for is shooting pressure shots, many a time I've shot awesome in the back yard and when it counts things have gone wrong, it takes a lot of work to be mentally strong, being able to mix it up just helps make you a confident Archer.

MI state record for trad is something like 280 out of 300, so most shots inside 3". I don't know what State you are talking about.

I average 250 so 99% inside 7" at 20 yards.

I think variety is good. Sometimes I shoot groups, sometimes I pick different spots, and sometimes I shoot a single arrow from different distances and angles. It's all good.

I will say this, we are a good bunch of "debaters" haha, but it keeps things spicy enough to be interesting. If we all agreed on everything, it would get boring.

I am sorry but I hate the folks who say if ya cant keep them all in an 8" circle you should not hunt!! BS!! Shawn

I think you didn't get the point correctly. Is not "if you can't shoot in 8" circle you better don't hunt". It is "if you are far off 4" from your intended aiming point you better work harder. If you aim at the tip of the lungs and you are 4" off of it the wrong side, you might be in a painful situation for both of you - animal and you.

Groups are a way to get your confidence up. When you have 90% of the shots in the safe zone (it's a kill) from the point I aimed at you will feel much better than having just 50% of your shots there. The hunters I shot and train with are actually starting to guesstimate the recovery distance based on where the arrow landed when they are close to the season. Pushing too much maybe? I don't think so, because it forces them to shoot at their best in "safe environment".

I got tired of busting up nocks, so I don't often shoot groups any longer.

Still though, they are a definite good gauge for how well you are shooting.

Just shoot 6 arrows one at a time, and pull the arrow after each shot. Measure your group of holes afterward. Same thing without arrow wreckage taking place. 8^)

Rick

Also, if you want to get better at 20. Practice more at 30. It make 20 easier.

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