I read this In the 1991 fall TB magazine. It is an excerpt from a letter Mr Hill wrote to Austin Bean in 1959. He is expressing his opinion on states adopting a min draw weight and arrow weights. “I noticed that many states have a required bow weight of 45# and arrows weight of at least 450 grains. This I feel is extremely important and if we could ask for that along 40# minimum bow weight and arrow head (3 times as long as wide) . There would be 75% less cripples. A 450 grain arrow out of a 40# bow should go through any deer in California. Even if it fits ribs or shoulder blade it should go deep enough to hit the vitals “

That was true in 1959 and it still true today.

I shot grizzly El Grande heads for several years an awsum head but your bow best be tuned properly & yes they go thru deer like butter

He was a practical man.

I think some minimums might be a good idea....maybe.Thing is that 3 to 1 rule would put an end to many widely used broadheads.Many women and kids shoot bows less than 40Lbs.Hill also wrote that "barbed" broadheads were better in that they would often catch on brush and be pulled out.Also because he never saw one come back out the way they went in.Here in NY barbed heads are illegal.

What was Howards ideal minimum requirements.

I have to disagree with Mr Hill on the broadheads. I think penetration would be negligible with a shorter head. Their are many penetration tests out there that defy the consensus in regards to shorter vs 3 to 1 heads.

Are you saying that 75% of all bowhunting wounding losses come from inadequate bow weight and/or broadhead used? Where does that number come from?

While bow weight and broadhead are import in cleanly killing an animal, accuracy is even more important as well as good judgement in when to shoot and when not to shoot.

Elderly OCR,

"I believe' what he meant was the lighter bow could be shot more accurately by some hunters because they would have better control of the shot. Thus reducing poorly made shots on deer. He knew that not everyone one could not shoot heavy bows accurately, even though he could. Which holds true today just as it did then. People wanting to shoot like Howard Hill should not look at it how much weight he shot with his bows, but his accuracy. Just my opinion. DANNY

“I am unclear as to the cripple link. What was causing cripples?”

I believe Reb dropped a word or two from the quote, or maybe Howard did it himself....

I’m going to reach a very different conclusion than Danny did; I think Hill was advocating for a #40 minimum, and thinking #45 would be even better. And the 3:1 proportions would lead to superior penetration. That’s 3” length per inch of width, so a 2” wide head should really be 6” long.... So, Spike is looking at it backwards.

Pretty sure his point was that most cripples are lost due to poor penetration and weak blood trails, since TRACKING is a lost art, and most bowhunters are SOL without a fair amount of blood on the ground.

I don't think tracking is a lost art I think folks just don't have respect for the animals that they once did & in the old days at the end of that blood or tracks trail was food

I don't think tracking is a lost art I think folks just don't have respect for the animals that they once did & in the old days at the end of that blood or tracks trail was food

Gf, potato patato

Even though I look up to Howard's beliefs & practices, I don't 100% agree with him on everything.

The 40# minimum draw weight, and 45# being even better I agree with. I hated it when Texas dropped the minimum.

The 45# / 450gr / 10gpp ratio I agree with somewhat, but have shown myself many times, that somewhere between 9 & 10 gpp works a little better.

The 3:1 ratio broadhead I "completely disagree" with. I'm not knocking a 3:1, I know they work quite well, but I have near 1:1's, that at the same grain weight, on the same arrow, and from the same bow will out penetrate every 3:1 I have.

Rick

The problem with putting numbers on things is that they don't mean all that much if everyone is using a wide variety of bows. I personally know that a 38 pound at 26.5" draw will put a Hill broad head on a cedar arrow clear through a large Iowa deer. My wife personally knows it for every deer that she has hit, but in her case the heads were mostly Eskimos and a couple of original Grizzlies. I have seen bows a few pounds under Hill's minimum of 40 pounds shoot the same arrow through a chronograph faster than an ASL that was ten pounds heavier. I have also seen a rich guy that got terrible penetration on two bucks in one season with a 60 pound Blacktail recurve with 750 grain arrows. Even the incredible performance of a Blacktail could not overcome his failings. Over the years especially back in the 60s, I saw people get many more bad hits being over bowed than under bowed. I do like three to one broad heads, even though i know that the good ole Eskimo is just as good when it comes to whitetails.

I believe the reason for the out penetration could be due to less friction on a shorter head. I have to laugh every time I hear 3:1 ratio and how it is “THEE” broadhead to use. Rick, out of curiosity what are the short heads you have tested?

Many of us have our own experience, and many here have a lot of experience with many broadheads. If we don't understand what works after all this time, we sure haven't paid much attention. Some of us have killed deer very easily with 40'ish pound bows, and guys who even post here have wives that shoot mid 30's and kill deer every year. So what Howard Hill said was also bent on what he used and what his company sold. He was a good salesman as well as a good archer.

I killed a deer with one of his heads and it worked great. I killed a lot more with Bear Razorheads and like the Hill, always had two holes and many pass through shots with bows in the 40 to 45 pound range. People who want higher minimum weights, don't really care about those who can't pull those weights. Worse yet, they really don't have a good grasp of just how lethal they can be. Once the testosterone starts to abate, one can think more clearly and take an honest look at the power of lighter bows.

Dean is spot on and has the experience to back it up. Not positive what hh was saying as quoted in the original post, but i thought it was an endorsement for lighter weight bows.

When Howard Hill wrote about suggested broadhead width he included 35 to 40 pound bows. He was not referring to a 35 to 40 pound Robertson takedown or a Black Widow, he was talking self bows or bamboo bows. I notice that the reference to the 45 pound minimum, Hill suggested 40 with a three to one broad head. If a 40 lemon wood bow had the stuff to satisfy Hill, a modern glass backed bow with a modern string would provide what Hill expected with a few pounds and even a couple of inches to spare. As far as penetration, enough is enough, but those Hunter's Heads have a magical way of getting buried and lost beyond the deer that just got shot. I sharpen mine with a file Musato style. I believe that different shaped heads with different metals may need different sharpening procedures. Hill sharpened his with a file and serrations. Perhaps if he used Eskimos, he may have preferred a different technique.

Spike - if you think 3:1 vs 1:3 is a “potayto/potahto” difference... then you Math even worse than you Spell.

And JMO, we Mere Mortals need to take Rick B’s experience with a BLOCK o’ salt.

No doubt Hill was speaking to the performance of the bows that he was familiar with, so the comments are only only as relevant as the equipment is similar. I don’t think 3:1 is critical, but that’s what he was selling then, and he wasn’t in it as a non-profit think tank.

And apparently enough people disagreed with him to keep Ace & Zwickey afloat....

Hill's wife was quite a bowhunter in her own rite, how heavy a bow did she use? bvd

LOL Matt. Just a block of salt?

8^)

Rick

I do know one thing, a Hunter's Head that is so filed down that it may not be legal in all states, will kill a deer very quickly. I put the word out if anyone is hunting in Mikey's switch grass and happens to find my arrow, I would like to have it back.

"LOL"

Rick, what are you shooting that is 1-1?

I said "near" 1:1, but my Bishop 175's are 1.125 X 1.125, so they are exactly 1:1.

Rick

Rick is that the Helix type head or the three blade?

Brad, it's a two blade right single bevel.

Rick

I was wrong, they aren't exactly 1:1.

1.25"L X 1.125"W

Rick

One other ASPECT ( :p) of blade design, by the way....

The steeper the blade angle, the more THUMP delivered to the animal on impact, sayeth Physics 101....

So a longer, slimmer head may give you a better chance of a “whawhuzzat?” shot reaction instead of a Mach III escape run, which would reduce crippling losses as well.

Rick, have you shot that head in the blue barrel ?

The zephyr head's were pretty wide and short also and seemed to be liked by many ,

[[[ Tihbow: "Rick, have you shot that head in the blue barrel ?

The zephyr head's were pretty wide and short also and seemed to be liked by many. ]]]

Yes I have. The only thing to out penetrate it was a 966gr arrow from a 98# bow.

Nothing else penetrated even as well when shot from the same bow, and on the same arrow.

Yes, those Zephyr heads worked very well. Even the real wide Zephyr Sasquatch heads did an awesome job.

Rick

in the last 10 year's iv mostly shot abowyer boneheads (a short wide head) and zwickey no mercy not 3 to 1 but a long head & my experience is that the zwickey penetrates better & the abowyer cuts a larger hole both are single bevel. shot from the same bows & within +- 5 grains of each other fellas I kill a lot of deer & if ya put it in the lungs well you know.

“So a longer, slimmer head may give you a better chance of a “whawhuzzat?” shot reaction instead of a Mach III escape run, which would reduce crippling losses as well.”

GF, if either type broadhead is put where it is supposed to be put, it is irrelevant.

I suppose a argument can be made that the animal felt the wider head more the the narrow head and takes off running instantly, thus gaining more ground, but in my own hunting experience on the animal that did take off at the impact and were hit well the run was a quick “death run” with a easy blood trail.

Hill tested arrows in wind, I have read over and over how it is all in the tuning and no well tuned arrow wind planes. Not all wind blows steady or in straight lines. I have had the wide Magnus heads, after years of thinking they were what worked for everything, do a monster side step on me. The conditions were unique, but i tune and test shoot all of my arrows, and found that with a gusting quartering tail wind along a steep bank that my arrows could do a big side step. The arrow that missed the very large buck and the next one because I couldn't believe the first one. I waited for a similar gust and tried a Hill, no side step. Large wide and/or round broad heads like a Deadhead. I have witnessed several episodes of the broad head not tracking at all on the line of arrow travel. In a case of an elk the arrow skipped off of a would be quartering away hit in the rib cage. In a case on a whitetail deer the arrow did a violent whip on the angled hit and did not penetrate. On a perfect hit everything works, on a not perfect hit, in rough conditions with gusting swirling winds, a deer or elk that moves and gives a less than favorable hit angle, or maybe the shot was off it mark and caught a hip or shoulder, in any of those cases a broad head that was not as affected by conditions, hit angles or misplaced shots will have its advantages. What kills a plastic bucket will not always behave the same on a live animal.

Interesting that you brought up heads skipping off of ribs... there’s a thread on bowsite about an arrow “bouncing off” of a deer and a few guys have opined that it just ain’t possible with a 2-blade or 3-blade COC.... but I once had a 7-08 bullet ricochet off of a rib on a quarter-away shot on a typical WT doe, so I’m prepared to believe that some people actually do win the lottery, no matter the odds. Angle is critical, and if an arrow is still oscillating and should happen to be flexing with point and nock both “away” from the animal, then the odds for that unique set of circumstances just went way up....

@Ken W - full agreement, but if a deer is going to bleed kinda slowly, I’d rather that it MOVE as slowly as possible. Standing there looking puzzled ‘til it tips over would be just fine.

Ironically, if it’s not going to bleed AT ALL, I’d rather have it hauling butt, because the harder the run, the easier the tracking....

iv had two instances one with a compound the deer was quartering away hard my shot looked perfect I waited an hour or so & started tracking & could not believe the deer wasn't dead I eventually got the deer the 125 grain thunderhead had gone up the side of the ribs slicing open a hole 6" long then out between the biscuit & shoulder I was shooting a 80# compound & 2317 shafts. the second I was shooting a 56# habu vipercahn 2216 & 150 grain abowyer bonehead the deer was almost straight away & the shot was perfect except the broadhead deflected off the rib bone & went straight up the backstrap to the fletching never recovered this deer and in both cases (possibly) with a hill type head the results (may) have been different on the second deer if the abowyer had been horizontal when it hit it probably wouldn't have deflected unfortunately ya can't get every one it happens

Can’t win ‘em all, so you gotta play the percentages!

In a 2010 article in TBM, a guy wrote about bouncing a stone head off from a deer's ribs. He also wrote that he was not very good at knapping at that time. bvd

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