Had to take a break from building the bow but I finally have it done. Other than a pair of superflex cores its as close as I can come to building one of Dads bows complete with a B-50 Dacron string LOL. Its 48&1/2#@28", 54&1/2#@30" Its a bit much in draw weight for me to properly chronograph. But I have a volunteer who is going to shoot the bow

So Crookedstix, you have that prestigious field of honor ready? My Dads dime store kaleidoscope as it was called is ready to go up against all those thoroughbreds!

Beautiful bow and congrats on the "re-create". Hope to see the numbers soon.

-Bones

Very nice. I'm looking forward to seeing the chrono. results as well.

Irregardless of the speed it's a pretty darn impressive underatking for you to reproduce that bow. The design that your dad had coem up with that has so much much of the limb devoted to the curve is impressive as well.

Nice! Great work!

Thats a fine looking bow.

Nice homage

Nicely done Todd. I wouldn't care if it was faster or slower than any bow since someone always will challenge that. The fact that you replicated your dad's bow is more important to me. A bow like that will always have a story from the get-go.

Yes Todd--the Field of Glory awaits the arrival of the Scherrinsky Legacy, or whatever you decide to call it.

To give folks some background, this bow has been brewing in Todd for several years, ever since the time Frisky was bragging about how fast his Drake was. Well, maybe that happened more than one time..anyway, Todd posted that he thought his dad's design could give it a run for its money--a suggestion which evoked scornful disbelief from The Legend, believe it or not. So Todd has been biding his time, waiting for the chance to see how it stacks up against the other speed bows of his dad's era.

Naturally, he took note of some of my posts about casting comparisons, and rightly concluded that I was as honest as the mid-winter day is long. If anyone could give his bow a fair test, it was me, he concluded. So we started talking it over, and this bow is the result.

Currently on my wall are some of the fastest models from the 60's. I'll be shooting Todd's bow for distance against the following bows: a SABO Hunter, Howatt Monterey and Hunter, Browning Safari, Tice & Watts Spartan Hunter, Groves Spitfire, Red Wing Hunter, and Shakespeare Ocala. What's more, I have detailed records from a 50# Drake, which routinely equaled or exceeded bows that were even ten pounds heavier, when I tested it last winter--and which was much, much faster than Frisky's doggy old Hunter-Flight, I'm quite certain.

I'll be posting all of the pertinent parameters from the different days of testing--wind, weather, arrows used, strings, brace heights, draw weights, etc.; and offering my own interpretation of the data...but will also welcome other opinions. Every effort will be made to do the best apples-to-apples testing that we can, with big enough sample sizes to make the data valid. Hopefully when the dust settles, we'll have a good idea of now that Scherrinsky design stacked up against the best of its era.

Have been very much looking forward to this. I think I finally have a string that will hold its brace tension at brace height. Its 3&3/4" short of NTN!

Be in the mail Monday!

Excellent ! Looking forward to the results! Nice bow Todd, I'm sure your father would be proud.

That is one pretty bow!

Thats a gorgeous bow..... congrats!!!

Nice! What's the length?

It's a 60". I used this design to build my T/D in 1988. I know every body has there opinions on the best bow length. But have always felt myself for a good all round bow a 60" is hard to beat. With good riser mass she can do 3D's but its still short enough to make a very effective hunting bow. They have enough limb also to handle most draw lengths.

I have to agree with that about 60" bows being the sweet spot...there's 8 of them on the wall here!

I use to do a lot of 3D shooting. Even managed to win an IBO World Championship trophy with one of my longbows. But I use to have a box full of 3D wins from my 60" from the local shoots.

I really don't care who builds it. And again its just my opinion. But a well built 60" is a tough SOB to beat as an all around bow.

So how many of those 60"er I have to beat? LMAO. Kerry again I can't thank you enough. Not sure how many of them this bow will handle. But we have Frisky to thank for me building it. Other wise this bow would have been forever just a local Legend!

I'll compare your bow to these seven, at least. But there's a few 62's and 58's you'll be up against as well...

This will be good, and thank both of you for including the wall. Crookedstix, that Safari II has a rather abrupt curve. Being that I have never shot one, does that affect the cast, and felt shock at all?

-Bones

LOL. I see a couple I'm worried about. The Spitfire's and the Tice and Watts, maybe the Ocala. Love that Pearson Mustang. Its just hard telling by a picture. Nice drag chutes, so how big are those pomp pomps LMAO

Dry Bones could not think of a better place to do this dance. Can only imagine the amount of knowledge on this site.

I just managed to get into here and will be replacing my HD in the iMac on Tuesday. I thought I'd add a few comments about this bogus undertaking. First off, I've seen Crookedstix and Pdiddly shoot their fastest bows and wasn't impressed. My Drake and Bear are faster than their fastest bows. If the bow shown here performs as well as it looks, it might as well have stayed on the wall, hahahaha!! It reminds me of a Herters kit bow my old buddy Johan finished in the mid 70s, hahahah!!! That old pile of junk couldn't outshoot my 76er! This one might well be a tad faster. I enjoy that word tad! HOW DARE ANYONE CHALLENGE MY DRAKE! My Grail can blow the socks off any bow on Crookedstix's wall of shame! It blew the snakeskins off of Skookum's bogus Mojo, hahahah!!!! This is gonna be a real laugher! I'm sure glad my computer is letting me post! I can't wait for the results to come in, but they'll have no real meaning, as my Grail and Bear TD are better bows than any being tested here.

The Legend

Dry Bones, I think my camera makes the curves look sharper than they are in that Safari; the limb profile is actually almost identical to a Howatt Hunter--except the Browning actually has a few degrees more deflex. No issues with hand shock at all.

Now, if there was one of those nasty little Hunter-Flites on this wall, then we could talk about hand shock. I had one for the briefest of periods, but after a disappointing audition, it was dismissed as an ill-tempered dwarf, and shipped it off to The Island of Misfit Toys.

Oldbowyer and croodedstix thanks for posting and the story, and I'm also looking forward to the testing. If the Legend can't even get penetration from 8 yards, or hit the "spot" I would disregard his statements. 0legend.

Where did the Monterey go!?

Hah, that's a 62" bow--as is the Hunter, etc. etc....

There's a few other dogs in this race...we can't make things too easy on Todd! Most of these are 62" bows, although there's a 58" RWH and a 63" SABO tossed into the mix. Plus, I'll be shooting from the same line in the same field as last year, and I have photos of where the Drake was landing them...so altogether there's 15 bows in the mix, plus the Scherrinsky.

Damn Crooked starting to feel picked on now LMAO. Kind of like that old joke about how tough Texans are. Me and my 15 buddies just kicked the crap out of one! LMAO

Well Frisky. Like I said this is all thanks to you. But its more about my Dads work against real hunting bows and where it will fair. Just trying to put him in the books sort of speak. Your Hunter Flight and your Bear (no disrespect to the Bear shooters I have them also) Could not even get off the porch to hunt with this crowd. But I'm sure Crookedstix would welcome them too. I mean after all I'm putting my butt on the line. You ain't got a hair on yours.

My Dad would have never lowered himself to building statics or flight bows, Frisky. Don't know about your snail but the Fire Drake is both. And the description I have of the one Kerry was shooting had even more mods than a normal one. Will my bow beat that Fire Drake. Probably not, it'll pound your snail though.

But yeah I DARE TO CHALLENGE THE DRAKE. Once this is done its the kids turn. LMAO

Well, I'm sure your dad made one heck of a bow. However, that doesn't mean it rubbed off on the son. We'll have to wait and see. Look at Skookum. He learned the art from Mart Mathew, yet his bows are inferior to the beautiful Mathew-made Grail!

The Legend

I remember Kerry’s flight test of the 62 inch Drake (Firedrake right?) And was super impressed!

Having said that I once owned a 63 inch SABO and it was at least as fast as my fastest bow at the time Through the Chrono with the same arrow at my draw. That was a Dave Paxton, Talon Swift 1959/60 Kodiak replica.

My money is on the SABO or possibly the Drake. Of course I have no idea about Oldbow’s dad’s replica!

This will be interesting and if nothing else, Entertaining to read Frisky’s posts!

J.

Jason, that Drake was a 66" bow, and with a larger riser than most Firedrakes. I'm still not sure if it was made by Drake, or by FASCO after they bought him out...but either way, it can sure chuck an arrow.

As for the SABO, I just got that one back in December and have only begun testing it. Early results are definitely promising...and whatever it may be in terms of speed, it's certainly easy on the eyes (see photo). I think that Lyle Shannon may have gone on to make even faster bows when he had his Black Eagle archery shop; a model called the Striker. I haven't been able to get my hands on one of those yet.

As I recall, your own testing revealed the Hunter-Flight to be a rather ordinary performer..yet somehow its legend has become greatly inflated. How could this have happened? We'll probably never know... ;-)

Please don't take this as a criticism folks but wouldn't the results be more definitive if shot over a Chrono as opposed to across a field?

No. Why would you think that?

Well, there is the problem of accurate repetition of the angle of departure. Air movement over distance and height can vary from moment to moment. Air density can vary daily or hourly.

Like I said, not trying to be critical, just thinking about things that could skew results.

Those are all sources of random error, rather than systemic error (aka bias). Random error tends to be self-correcting; all it takes is sufficiently large sample sizes. Since I'm shooting identically-equipped bows on the same day, minutes apart, on days with virtually no wind.

Plus, with this system I have zero measurement error; I can measure the flight right to the inch if I want! Who knows what's going on inside that chrono, or how accurate or consistent it is? How do you calibrate it after you bump it once?

I'm rightly suspicious of all machines...which is why I outlawed them long ago, here in New Bowmania. Well, except for my computer, my bicycle, and the refrigerator that holds the Royal Beer Supply. ;-)

Well, heck mel, forward to the testing then. I for one think that with a large enough sample you will get accurate results and look forward to seeing them.

However, I will continue with my chrono since it requires a mere ten or twelve feet rather than two or three hundred yards. OTOH, I love to launch arrows as far as possible when I'm in a place that allows it. Usually in a mountain meadow or park where I can stand next to the car to shoot and then measure with a lazer rangefinder from impact back to the car. But, of course, there's that dang technology attachment of mine again! :^/

Nice looking bow!

This is going to be interesting, I'm pulling for ya Todd, quite the epic challenge!

I'm getting all of the challengers limbered up--limbs flexed, strings stretched, and nocking points and string puffs in the right places. Tonight I shot the SABO against the '63 Howatt Hunter, using four different types of arrows. The Howatt had about a 1# heavier draw wt., and about a 2 yd. advantage in flight distances...,in other words, probably a draw.

This was only a few arrows with each bow; I had to wait until sundown for the breeze to die down, and was racing to get up there and shoot before it was pitch dark.

I noticed that the nocking points are a bit low on both bows' strings; I'll fix that before Todd's bow shows up. Plus, I'll slip some anabolic steroids into the bowstring wax, just for that little edge. If it's good enough for Lance Armstrong, it's good enough for my bows!

LMAO. Well Brother Kerry she is in the mail. Should be there Friday. I explained to her today that its going to be alright and to get her tail out from between her legs and quit piddling on the floor!

Well Joe you might be right. Never been accused of being the sharpest tool in the shed. About the only real complement my Dad gave me was that I was very analytical. I study stuff trying to figure out what works what does not and why. Guess I did get that from him. I have a couple bows that I have built pound for pound that will beat this 60"er. But they don't fit in Kerry's criteria. I honestly think Pop may have missed the boat on some things. Thinking with some tweaking there is a whole lot more punch in this design. But its not what Dad would have built and that is what this is all about

Well, the sad thing is, the Grail is still the winner. It's as fast as my Bear, and the two of them are the two fastest and best shooting recurves of all-time. Nobody can prove me wrong!

Joe

Incidentally, I took a closer look at that SABO tonight while I was adjusting its nocking point...and discovered that it has a sneaky little riser shim on it that extends the total length between fades to about 28 inches. So that's three very fast bows I know of--Drakes, Groves, and SABO's--that all made use of that little technique to extend the distance between fades, and shorten the working limbs. Now I need to figure out who came up with it first...and my money is on Harry Drake.

There are no tip wedges in the SABO; there are also no tip overlays of any kind. The limb cores are two maple lams--one that tapers, and one that keeps a uniform thickness; exactly the same as the Shakespeare Kaibab and Ocala.

Are we looking at a power lam there?

Oooh Man that's gorgeous :-) JF

Yes, some call it a power lam LC; it extends the riser about 1-1/2" up into the limbs at the fadeouts.

The power lambs will shorten your working limb length. Concentrating more energy in a smaller area. As long as its not stacking it won't loose its stored energy. I suppose the theory might be on that, that it will deliver more energy. I know my Dad had problems with "rock" or vertical instability in some of his designs. A bowyer friend of mine explained it to me that the base of the limbs was over riding the tips from brace tension. My Dad always used very fast tapers. His solution was to "shorten" the riser. That allowed the tips to balance out. It might have been interesting if he had went to slower tapers.

What ever Frisky. No guts, no glory. Like I said ya ain't got a hair on your backside to put those bows on the Field of Glory. I welcome you to prove me wrong.

Fast tapers=more tip action."whip ended" seem to cast a light arrows best.Its interesting that power lams were used in vintage bows when 10 years ago we thought they were a new thing.I made a glass longbow with all fast tapers years ago and it was a dog and shocky (but it was not lightweight and I never tried light arrows)

This bow is right on the edge. I'm sure it can go to a slower taper. It has .005/1 total in it. Dad even dropped down to .006/1 in his shortest recurve

Power lams and tip wedges is a new thing to me but obviously someone brought them back. Going to try and get a better understanding of them next few months. They go against every thing I was taught

;) everything is new again ;) I remember reverse tapers in longbows ;)

Todd's bow showed up in the mail today! I wasted no time in comparing it to some of the bows on my wall, and get this: it lines up almost exactly with the Tice & Watts in terms of limb curvature. When I hold those two bows together at the nocks the limbs line up almost exactly, all the way to the fades. When I line them up at the pivot points in the grip, their nocks are exactly the same distance forward...and both bows have a two "double-tapered" lams. I'm tempted to go out and buy a micrometer, because the tapers also look to be just about identical.

This is all fascinating to me, because Tice & Watts were NASA engineers using the supercomputers at work to design their limbs in the late 60's...whereas Todd's dad was designing his limbs almost a decade EARLIER, relying on insight and experience. Can't wait to see how they compare! I'll be starting a new thread tomorrow on the various flight tests ahead for the Scherrinsky bow, where I can post the data as it becomes available.

Let the games begin!

Evidently, the old man scrapped his designs and copied a Tice and Watts when he got his hands on one. That would explain the design. Doesn't matter. Drake had them all beat! My Bear TD has a grip that's the same shape as the one on my Drake!

Joe

Here's a quick 'n' dirty look at how the Scherrinsky design compares to the Tice & Watts (top) and the 1968 Groves Spitfire (bottom). Those are some serious hooks on all three of these bows.

Well Frisky maybe it was the other way around Brother. You see that old recurve I have is 60 years old. Its the base limb for this one. Seems to me that was before Kennedy, NASA, Tice and Watts and supercomputers. So all the evidence would point that Tice and Watts got ahold of a Scherrinsky. Guess we will see if they learned anything from a master bowyer or if it was just junk in junk out like most computer programmer's. I've already seen the "possible" down fall of the design.

I also think you are really grasping at straws. From a bowyer to a.....Legend. What the hell does a matching grip have to do with a damn thing on a bows performance? You put that into your computer?

Re-read and check your work Frisk.Probably just early onset dementia.Adjust your meds.

Remember what I told you about the outhouse window Kerry? Look at the very bases. LOL But yeah that T&W is something

Oldbowyer, that is a true beauty.

I'm just not convinced the Scherrinski has what it takes to compete with the T & W and the Groves, let alone a Drake. I'm kind of seeing more of a Herters kit bow. All I can tell ya is old Johan, my buddy back in the mid 70s, had his Herters trounced by my 76er, hahahah!!! I hope this bow can do a little better than that! We'll just have to wait and see.

Joe

Im on pin and needles! :^)

Me too Longcruise. As I mentioned earlier I don't think it can take the Fire Drake. Far as I'm concerned its not a hunting bow at 66" long. Where as most of the bows Kerry shoots are hunting length. A longer bow will always have an advantage over shorter bows. Even poor ones. I remember the Drake winning the competition last time but it was not much over the Tice&Watts.

My last name is spelled with a "Y" on the end Friski

Hmmm...crookedstix quote got by everyone who lives in the south but not by me who knows him well...

"...rightly concluded that I was as honest as the mid-winter day is long."

Which it is not...haha!!

Enjoying the first results.

As for Frisky's degrading comments Kerry and I tried to get Frisky to bring out the Holy Fail and the Dogmaster (he did not own the Contraption at the time) onto a freshly cut Minnesota cornfield and show us his stuff but he was chicken!!

Kerry and I have been e-mailing quiet a bit. I mentioned that when I seen it. Got a pretty good chuckle out of it

Not exactly getting pounded but it ain't the star of the show either LOL

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