I was doing some experimenting over the weekend, checking arrow velocity with different setups. Using a 725gr arrow, I was getting about 148 to 150 fps with a 45lb Damon Howatt Hunter (drawn 30"). Now, I have no doubt that my heavy arrow going 150 fps can easily drive a broadhead to the other side of a deer - but, that arrow was in no hurry to get down-range!

So I'm looking for opinions here - for the sake of a reasonable arrow trajectory for hunting, what is the low-end of velocity that is acceptable? At what velocity should you either decrease arrow mass or increase bow draw weight to obtain a more reasonable arrow speed? Again, this is not for purposes of terminal performance, this is for having a reasonable arrow trajectory that is not a significant handicap for good, repeatable accuracy.

It's really up to you, how you shoot/aim, and what you're used to.

I shoot instinctive, and as long as I keep my arrows in the 9-11 grains per pound range, which is what I'm used to, I can switch from bow to bow, arrow to arrow without missing a beat.

Arrows heavier than that cause me to lose accuracy because range estimation, whether done consciously or subconsciously, becomes increasingly difficult with distance due to their trajectory.

Don't know nothing specific about velocity numbers, never shot through a chrono.

Yes why 725 grains? Have you tried an arrow that is 10 grains per pound of bow?

Too slow is when it starts affecting desired accuracy at any distance you may wish to shoot.

"So I'm looking for opinions here - for the sake of a reasonable arrow trajectory for hunting, what is the low-end of velocity that is acceptable?"

If the animal is still there when the 725 gr arrow is arriving, what others are saying is worthless. On this site are posts made by hunters killing hogs with ~390gr arrows from #45 bows and they are in the high 170s fps if not more. Arrow selection is personal and environment counts too.

My question is about minimum arrow velocity,not about arrow mass.

Yes, I was shooting a 725 gr arrow, but I was shooting several arrows that day ranging from 455gr, 555gr, 625gr, and 725 gr. Just to see the impact on velocity. My 455gr arrow went about 185 fps, my 555gr arrow went about 170 fps, I think my 525gr arrow was around 160fps, something like that.

Now, having said that, bow weight and arrow mass being a secondary consideration, what arrow VELOCITY is considered the rock-bottom that should be acceptable? At what lower-end velocity do you say, "wow, I either need to get a lighter arrow, or a heavier bow!"

150 feet per second is 102.3 miles per hour. Do you think that is slow?

I'm certainly no expert, but the difference between a 30 yard shot at 200 ft/sec (0.45 seconds) and one at 150 ft/sec (0.60 seconds) is only 0.15 seconds.

There may be other issues that other LWers come up with, but time to the target doesn't seem like one.

I guessing aiming will be the biggest issue. As to "why" who cares.

Slow? I don't know, I'm looking for YOUR opinion, I already have one.

Last year, my hunting bow shot a 620gr arrow around 175 fps. Compared to 175, 150 seems slow to me, but that might be because I was shooting my other rig all year and I was used to 175 fps.

I have buddies that shoot light carbons in the 190 to 200 range and they think my arrows are big slow logs.....

How far do you want to be able to shoot accurately? At 15 yards and closer you probably need little compensation for shooting such a heavy arrow out of your moderate bow draw weight. At distances much farther, you are going to have to start lobbing your arrows and that does not make for good accuracy.

"Slow? I don't know, I'm looking for YOUR opinion, I already have one."

Some bowyers and hunters had other opinion that might go against what some hunters today are thinking. I will make a copy/paste of their opinion here. The info is from the "Traditional Bowyers of America" by Dan Bertalan.

- Scorpion Longbows : 530gr arrow, #62.5 DW for the tester and 188fps

- Monarch Longbows: 520gr arrow, #62 DW for the tester and 182 fps

- Kramer Longbows: 520gr arrow, #68.5 DW for the tester and 184 fps

- Robertson Stykbows: 520 gr arrow, #70 DW for the tester and 195 fps

- Howard Hill archery: 520 gr arrow, #62 DW for tester and 176 fps

- Mountainman Longbows: 525 gr arrow, #69 DW for the tester and 186 fps

- Don McCann Custom Archery: 550gr arrow, #80 DW for the tester and 191 fps

- Cascade Mountain Archery: 530gr arrow, #61 DW for the tester and 186 fps

Don McCann was shooting a 6.78gpp arrow, Robertson a 7.48gpp arrow, Kramer a 7.59 gpp and Mountainman a 7.60 gpp arrow.

You have their opinion about speed - some were very speed oriented as it shows in the text.

Guys like to use physics to say heavier arrows penetrate better but they forget one minor detail, that only works if both arrows travel the same speed or are at least very close. 725 grains is Not going to penetrate better than 4, 5, or 600 in flesh. Rick showed his study, osb showed video of his tests also, jack howard had his friend Jim easton make him identical arrows with the only difference being weight for his study, fred bear did a study also as have tons of others. All shoes that 9gpp penetrated the best.

Whatever speed that you can accurately deliver your broadhead to at your maximum accurate distance. Personal preference.

Theres no such thing as too slow. Other than too slow is when it costs you accuracy and/or penetration. Your 455gn will outpen your 725 on flesh.

In my opinion, which is what you asked for :-) anything below about 170. The only reason being that most of my bows shoot 180ish and if go much below 170 there is a noticible difference in drop. I notice at 3d matches that my bow is one of the flatter shooting ones, now i have no idea of the velocity of others bows, but on farther shots in tunnels i seem to be in the minority when it comet to hitting the target and staying out of the trees overhead. I do know that according to the internet my bows are really slow, but at matches it doesn't seem to be the case haha

I believe there are quite a few bows out there pushing 10gpp at that velocity range. I think a lot of guys over estimate their draw length and arrow speed. But hey having a long draw length and a super fast arrow is pretty cool.

I hunt with a bow in that range with a 400 grain arrow and have not had trouble with penetration on whitetails. Not saying that more weight and speed wouldn't be a good thing, but I only shoot out to a bit over 30yds at most 3d shoots and have the trajectory pretty well ironed out. For hunting my shots are generally 15 and in with 20 being a long shot for me.

For me all this is smoke. All I ever did was see how an arrow flies with a BH and how far I wanted to shoot out of a bow and that's it.

What else is there the result dead animal or bird.

Effectiveness of speed (or lack there of) is directly related to how close you want, or need to get to your intended target.

Slow works just as good as fast "IF" you are close enough, you just need to know the limitations of both you, and your equipment, and you're good to go.

Outside of that, it's just personal preference.

Rick

Rayman Cat, there is no room for common sense here. )

150 fps isn't slow for a car or baseball but yes it's very slow for a bow or bullet George.

George, "common sense" is what we inherited from our predecessors because they did not die using it before they reproduced. Since hunting with bow and arrow is not an activity that was passed down from generation to generation to all the people on the planet, it is not part of the "common sense" all people share as database.

Once upon a time spears worked, I reckon they where still slower than your arrow. And you would be shooting state of art speeds at one time.

I beefed up my arrow weight for a bear hunt... 750 grains out of my 50# bow... it really affected my max range because if I was off only a tiny bit - I was off a BUNCH by the time that slow arrow arrived. Upon return - same bow... throwing 500g arrows like lasers. Max range increased as well as general accuracy... mostly because a tiny bit of range miscalculation doesn't result in a way low/high shot.

Also - whatcha hunting? In the majority of hunting scenarios (bull frogs excluded) it kinda makes sense to shorten the time between release and impact. The deer/pigs in Texas don't wait all day for the arrow to get there before they explode.

RJH1, thank you for your response - you get an "A+" for actually addressing the assignment.

No, I'm not looking for a lecture on why I'm an idiot for even asking the question... sheesh!

Remember, THE QUESTION IS NOT ABOUT TERMINAL PERFORMANCE - that is a separate issue. The question is, at what velocity do you say, "Dang! I either need to get lighter arrows or start shooting a heavier bow! I ain't lovin' this rainbow trajectory!" I guess this is really more of a shooting question, not so much a hunting question, because I practice at distances I would never shoot an animal - out to 80 yards.

Considering that a deer is a bag of water with a few tinker toy sticks in it, considering the knobby bits that you don't want to hit any way. So that leaves us with accuracy, blood loss and timing, remember those buggers can see, hear, smell and move. How much power does it a take to blow through the ball joint and still kill the deer where you can find it? A lot more than a 750 grain arrow going 150 fps. On the other hand once again this year, there was a buck running around with a carbon arrow in the base of its neck with virtually no penetration. Mechanical broadhead not living up to its guaranteed miracle? Some heads do more damage on non-optimal hits than others, some heads leave a better blood trail on perfect double lung hits. I have shot long skinny heads through ribs with out breaking the rib, not a lot of impact, or the rib would have snapped. I know, I should have been charged with using a file sharpened head that would not even shave your gramma's back hairs, but i have not had a deer go more 60 yards after the hit in years. My arrows tend to run 9 to 10 grains per pound without me planning anything and they still zip straight through deer with my 26" draw and medium weight longbows. Oh little side note. a couple of years back, I tested a couple of bows with an archery shop chrony and a Hooter Shooter. Four things of interest. My average arrow speed was higher with me shooting than what the Hooter got. My arrows flew better with me shooting than what the Hooter delivered. although my hand shot arrows were all faster than the Hooter at the same draw, some of my shots were as much as 6 fps faster than others. One of my own made bows 57.5@26 &60@27, shot faster than a Robertson Purist 51@26 or my Schulz Legend 64@26 with the same arrow. The reverse JD Berry Morningstar 53@26 looses nothing in the speed department, it shot the same arrow the same speed as my lefty 52@26 Robertson when shooting by hand. Not all bows get optimal performance out of shooting machines, could be a product of the arrow making too much arrow shelf contact. I noticed the same thing with my home made shooting duber years ago. It liked my target bows and hated my longbows. I believe it has to do with the spring in the bow arm and the energy in the release. I have noticed quite often that people that shoot extra heavy arrows, that may have a softer release than they think, also have a lot of opinions on how much other archers should limit their hunting shot distance. Half of the deer that my wife has shot arrows through were beyond that common under 20 yard recommendation, 38@26 with 430 grain cedar arrows. Maybe her arrow maker and broad head selector and sharpener should get some credit.

Common sense would tell you that common sense will work with anything....like not picking up poisonous snakes, or trying to beat the blinking RR lights, or anything else that would be common knowledge to thinking folks. It comes from actually knowing what works versus hearing what others talk about but never tried. Try a 700 grain arrow at 150 feet per second into your car door and then get back to us.

Common sense and telling the truth are two dying traits these days. I agree with Rick Barbee on this one.

All my setups are from the mid 180s to high 190s and that’s how I like it. I want the most speed I can get without going too light on arrow wt. Just remember, that’s me. You and everybody else that shoots a bow may want something different and that’s their choice.

MP

"Try a 700 grain arrow at 150 feet per second into your car door and then get back to us."

If the cars is moving, I doubt I can hit it. I said way above the single thing that makes an arrow slow is if it reaches the intended target or not. It doesn't matter if the arrow will crush the bones if the deer is in the next county when the arrow arrives at the destination. In some environments the animals are more wary than others. Common sense will tell someone to see what works for his style and hunting environment not to see what works for others and try to match.

O.K. My opinion. 150 is not too slow but it is slow. Too slow for me, too slow for that bow. 450 to 500 grains is the optimum for it and will drive through any whitetail. 10 to 11 GPP has been proven by Easton and folks such as Fred Bear, for ever. More recently by Rick Barbee. Then again they were not hunting car doors. That might be a different story. I never shot one, but pretty sure they don't jump the string. I have shot a truck load of deer and hogs + a couple of Bears. Both bears were pass throughs with a 44 pound Howatt Super D. >>>>-----> Ken

If sense was common everyone would have it. Just look at some of the warning labels they have to put on things.

How many of you actually have a chrono and know your arrow speeds? I have a 27" draw length, shoot around 10 gp# of draw weight, out of 45-50# bows. I don't get anywhere near 180fps. I have checked my chrono against another and got the same numbers.

I shot an 1816 that was going about 165 fps completely through a junked and dumped Dodge pickup door. Shooting through a car door is not a viable test of anything.

Used to enjoy shooting a set of short 26.5 inch 1816's with nibs and real short feathers out of a 48lb 52-inch recurve hunting bow 'cause they shot real flat. My first aluminums given to me by an instructor from some old ones he had. Whew doggies, they shot so flat I had to get used to them. Now shoot heavy tipped carbons that are long enough to hang my laundry from them. Don't know how fast those carbons are but even with heavy inserts and points, they are just fast enough to be comfortable. Seems like what's comfortable and matches adequately to several of my bows with different but similar draw weights is what I like to shoot.

Another way to look at it, if your base common aim is 20 yards with ten grains per pound with a bow sight, how much higher on the target does an 8.5 gpp arrow hit and how much lower does a 12 gpp arrow hit. You may be surprised that it is not as much as you may think. Now if you have a 40 yard sight pin that is sighted in for a 10 gpp arrow, some differences that deserve attention will show up at 40 yards. One can do what ever they want, sometimes the arc of the arrow is just a matter of personal personal perspective.

It’s NOT about a number; it’s 100% about whether you can hit what you’re shooting at.

As far as whether you should go up in bow weight to get more speed, the only question is whether you CAN.

I tend to agree that there is no downside to hunting with the heaviest bow that you can shoot to 90%-95% of the best of your ability, so the question is...

Let’s say that you can group 4” wide with your “slow” bow, but your groups are about a foot tall. And let’s say with your faster, heavier bow, you shoot 7” circles.

JMO, the rainbow trajectory is going to cause you to have more poor hits even when the targets never move.

OTOH, if your lateral dispersion goes Bats when you go up 5 pounds, go to a lighter arrow. If in doubt, shoot scored rounds of 3D and see what the official tally says.

Personally, I’d not care to hunt with an arrow under 400 for deer or 450 for Elk, but I’ll go with whatever is reasonably fast and reasonably quiet. The New Gal seems real happy at 540, which is about dead nuts 9.0 GPP.

Probably won’t get a definitive answer, just analogys.

Think about how much game has been killed with arrows a lot slower than that. You have plenty there for any animal that walks the North American continent.

DDave

Yup, so long as he doesn’t miss ;)

X2 GF...that would be my concern. At that speed there is not any margin for error.

I put a right at 625 gr.carbon with a Simmons Tree Shark thru a huge does with a 47# Damon Howatt Super Diablo,shot distance was just under 20 yds and velocity was 147 fps. Arrow ended up stuck in ground 3-4 inches.

Maybe one way to look at this is to ask another question: "What speed do I shoot best at?" For me, a fast, flat-shooting bow is easier to shoot accurately...and when you're shooting with confidence, your accuracy gets even better. When I go to Colorado each fall, I need to know that I can make a 35-40 yard shot...and for me, that's so much easier to do with a faster arrow.

The 150 fps does a fine job on whitetail for me. I'm liking the car door stuff.

For me it's about 170fps give or take a couple, I killed a turkey with an arrow going about 150 and felt like I needed to keep my shots at 15yds and in which is what I wait for with turkeys anyway. Optimal speed is mid 170's for my low anchor point and split finger shooting style. I used to shoot faster in the 180's and I was great at longer shots and horrible at close shots, slowed down the arrow and got a lot better at close and mid range distances and worse at longer takes but I feel it's a good compromise to be able to shoot better at hunting ranges!

Bentstick54: "Whatever speed that you can accurately deliver your broadhead to at your maximum accurate distance. Personal preference. "

That says it best.

If you're really good at ranging and aiming-at-distance it doesn't matter so much. If you stick with 'instinctive', trajectory is more important.

2 bears x 2

Only you know what's too slow (for you). What may bother you could be just right for someone else.

The OP qualified his question to how slow is too slow for "reasonable trajectory for hunting" so the penetration debate really doesn't apply to this thread. So, the question is how far do you want to shoot? 120 fps will shoot reasonably flat to 10 or 12 yards.

I'm guessing that we could all agree that a 4 lb arrow shot from a 45 lb bow would be too heavy..... Wait, this is the Leatherwall. Let me rephrase: I'm guessing that most of us could agree...

I shoot heavy arrows out of my self bows and probally am under 150 fps. It doesn't matter much out to 15 yards but things get real ugly past 20 yards.

Actually its only a 1/10 pound arrow, yahooty

(7000 grains per pound)

Thanks to those that addressed my original question....

To clarify, instead of '...reasonable trajectory for hunting', let's say for the sake of argument I'm a Jack Howard wannabe and I feel comfortable shooting at calm animals out to 50 or 60 yards. No, I would not take that shot, but I do practice out to those distances, so I still have to make that shot throughout the summer months (and not lose my arrows in the trees behind our targets at our range).

I get a kick out of some of you guy's! Several of you have blamed missing the shot on the arrow being too heavy, and too slow. Do you think it might be, Because you didn't aim high enough? 99.9% of the time a miss is because of OPERATOR ERROR, not because of the fps or arrow weight.

Bob

"To clarify, instead of '...reasonable trajectory for hunting', let's say for the sake of argument I'm a Jack Howard wannabe and I feel comfortable shooting at calm animals out to 50 or 60 yards."

Whatever speed that keeps my aiming arrow below the point I want to hit. Based on my way of shooting, whatever is in 170 fps with split fingers and around 8.5-9 gpp arrow will do. But I don't say no for the rig shooting the same with 190 fps.

I tried heavy arrows with heavy points and didn't see what all the buz is about.

The thing I noticed most was the trajectory that did fall off while trying to shoot targets.

If I was close to the animal all good but if a further shot then had to compensate and raise higher so I found it non practical for me to go with heavy weight arrows and points.

Ok. I will play. I think your setup is too slow.

"Several of you have blamed missing the shot on the arrow being too heavy, and too slow. Do you think it might be, Because you didn't aim high enough? 99.9% of the time a miss is because of OPERATOR ERROR, not because of the fps or arrow weight."

There are many archers using for indoor competitions (20 yards / 18m) low poundage bows with real long and heavy arrows to get the point on down to 20 yards and they are deadly accurate. I think some of the set-ups are very close to 120 fps - some even less. The speed or heavy arrow question is not having something to do with just the tools or the skills but with the hunted animal too. Would someone use a setup like that to shoot squirrels at 20 yards? He may use it, but I doubt its efficiency. At 20 yards from a moose, I see no reason why it wouldn't work. I think it is a balance between archer's skills, target type and comfort level. And this will vary from person to person. There are 50 shades of grey, not black and white.

Without going into any detail LOL:

I've cleanly killed, and quickly recovered 2 deer with 600+ grain arrows traveling right at 100 fps velocity.

The arrow went in the on side, and poked out the off side on the first, and doubled lunged with no exit wound on the second.

BUT, I was close. Very close. 5 yards on the first, and about 8 yards on the second.

I can honestly say, 10 yards with that particular setup would be the max distance I would want to try it. Anything much beyond 10 yards, and a clean kill with a quick recovery would be very iffy even with an accurately placed shot.

So, back to my point. Speed only increases the distance of which you can adequately do the job, and only then "if" you can accurately shoot the longer distances.

150 fps with a 725gr arrow will most definitely adequately do the job at 20 yards, or less, and I personally would prefer the less side of that option.

Rick

For me low 170s is my cut off. Vertical accuracy suffers a lot after that.

Draven, that's a good point.

For years, I shot a damon howatt hunter, 47 lb, with a 570gr arrow, I think I was going in the mid 160s. At the 80 yard target (standard Field Round), I always had to put the point of the arrow about 5 feet above the target butt. I could make the shot, but not conducive to accuracy, I had to take aim, then carefully raise my bow, and release (and hope for the best).

With my new bow, which I've been shooting a 455gr arrow about 185 fps, I don't have to aim so high, at 80 maybe I'm putting the point of the arrow right at the top of the target butt. The flatter trajectory really helps with the longer shots, that's for sure....

So how about this?

Your arrow is Too Slow IF: In order to hit your target, you have to elevate your arrow to the point where it prevents your dominant eye from having an unobstructed view of the target.

I’m not sure it’s adequate, but at least you can check it without a chronograph: hit full draw, settle in, then instead of releasing you just close your non-dominant eye and see if your arrow covers your chosen “spot”, however you have defined it. Ought to work for everybody but Frank Addington.

LOL

Warp 3 for me Scotty

Really, I have no number for fps just if its not a total lob shot

I shoot ASL's with about 10 gpp

so not fast by any means- as long as the arrow hits where I want and not a falling brick I'm happy

kinda what yoou are comfortable with in trajectory and accuracy out west you might like a little lighter arrow due to distances

No reason to shoot more than a 500-grain arrow.

I gave a guy a 48 pound longbow, at his draw, and set of cedar blunt arrows to get him started. He turned on with it, a rabbit and squirrel expert. Someone else gave him a bundle of old chundo shafts, the spine was close, but the weights were all over the place. Being who he is, he came to me and asked what he had to do. We spited and weighed all of those 60 shafts and put them into 6 arrow groups and marked them all. Chundo is heavy stuff, out of that string follow Big 5 at his 27.5" they are not very quick, but he does most of his dirt shooting practice at 30 yards, he knows the arc of those arrows. He must have his eye, secondary positions, or whatever zeroed in, for his 20 to 35 yard ranges that he tends to kill game at. He hunts deer in open country creek bottoms and hillside terraces, he missed his first deer in 7 years this year, but he got it with the second shot, it was further than he thought, the first first arrow going just under the deer. He does not trophy hunt, antlers mean nothing to him. If someone is shooting a crawl and has their whole system set up to be point on at 15 yards, taking a 35 yard shot would be a very foreign thing to do. On the other hand if someone lives out in the open country and archery to them is taking long shots at squirrels, rabbits and pheasants on the ground the arc of a long flying arrow is just part of the game and making an adjustment for a slower flying arrow not a life changing event. They are just a bit closer to their point on.

I'm not a scientist. I just play one on TV.

The OP question , "how slow is too slow", seems directed as "how slow is hard to shoot accurately?" The key to answering that question is to remember that deceleration and deflection of a missile are exponential. The longer the arrow is in flight, the effects of gravity and wind are exponentially greater. An arrow in flight for 2 seconds drops 4 times as much as an arrow in flight for 1 seconds..in a VACUUM. In reality, we put turkey feathers on the rear ends of our arrows so at 20 yards they are not going anywhere close to as fast as we think. Add exponential effects of air resistance and deflection and it becomes obvious that the longer an arrow is in the air, it goes exponentially more off the initial vector. Not that you cant compensate for those effects, but your compensatory adjustments, by necessity, must be exponential rather than linear. That's why 50 yards is a challenging but not difficult shot with a recurve on a 3D course, but a 200 yard shot is impossible with many recurves shooting 10 GPP...the arrow simply wont get there, no matter where you aim.

When you can throw and arrow by hand faster than the bow can. Anything else is OK.

" In reality, we put turkey feathers on the rear ends of our arrows so at 20 yards they are not going anywhere close to as fast as we think. "

This is true. I found out based on my testing that an arrow 9 or 11 gpp will slow down around 16-17 fps at 20 yards. What leaves the bow at 150 fps is 133-134 fps at the 20 yards target.

145 TO 150 Fps self bow 15 yards, and in with 450 gr arrow. 165 fps with 450 gr arrow out of recurve bow 20 yds. and in. Works for me.

How slow is when you can out run the arrow, had one once and took an arch to get it there.

If you are fooling the deer and the arrow is getting into them in and through a vital area with a good hit and adequate penetration before they duck, flinch or step aside . . . its all good.

A slower shooting bow narrows your margin of error.

If you're experiencing too many trajectory-related misses, that's too slow.

I stand by that regardless of your shooting style - gap, string walking, instinctive. Judging distance to target is hard enough, however you shoot.

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