That's 120 to many for me any more. Most that I managed to shoot was 80 and that's along time ago. Shot with a guy that used 110 pound longbows and was a excellent shot. Had to watch shooting with him, he had a knack for being able to shoot under a limb that would "catch" your arrow. Had to climb more than one tree.
I used to work out by pulling two 64 at my draw Schulz bows at the same time. Holding both in one hand and pulling both strings with the other. I could do a number of reps left hand and right hand. Funny thing when I tried to up that to a 64 and 75 pound bow, i could draw them once and that was it, a dozen or more pulls at 128 total to just one at 139. Today, just the thought of trying that, hurts. i am still curious what my max draw is, i shot my old 90 pounder earlier this year about 40 or 50 shots, yep, that hurt too.
I think the only way it can happen like that is because he's pulling all the way and doesn't stop for any anchor. He releases as his finger tips pass his lips. I've watched slow motion of his release and in some frames, you can see him move his hand forward upon release.
I'd love to see anyone's release with this style in slow motion.
I like the form videos that show fingers flopping forward like wet noodles and then in hind sight the hand goes back to the shoulder. If you watch Hill videos in slow moving there are variations as well. sometimes a bit short and the draw hand jerks back pretty hard and other times a longer draw and no backwards motion. That is one thing a longbow is quite good at, forgiving draw length variations. They get a bit less efficient with long draws, (static hysteresis) and more efficient with shorter draws, of course that is assuming the draw is in the pocket of the sweet spot of the bow. As an example, my wife has two bows of the same draw weight, a Hill and a hybrid. At her standard draw the hybrid is 3 fps faster, at a longer draw of about 1/4" to 1/2" the hybrid is 6 fps faster, but at a 1/2" shorter draw the Hill longbow is faster than the hybrid. The performance pocket of the hybrid is very limited from coming into its own to being dead in the water, while the Hill has a more even rollout over a wider span. The performance span of the short little hybrid is centered about an inch longer than my wife's draw length. I got three shots, finger released, can't pinch tab, with 448 grain 1816s, 42@ 28" 176, 174, 176 fps at an area archery shop with the hybrid drawing the bow to just a bit under 28". At 25.5" draw it falls off very dramatically to around the low 150s.
The first time I saw that video, and yes, I paid the premium price for it years and years ago, I could not believe his release. I said to myself, "What the hell was that?"
I practiced that style and got to the point that I could hit a pop can pretty much every time at twenty yards and under. Anything further was a bonus.
There is no way in hell I would attempt a shot at a deer with that style. I still have to draw. anchor, aim, and release. Usually, I'm pointing the bow at the deer and use a push pull to achieve anchor. That swing draw style may work for birds in flight, but the forest deer would pick it off in a heart beat.
I think some of the archers who claim it is the only way are fooling themselves. I don't buy it.
What elderly said. I don't think I could to that (wave my fingers around and touch my shoulder) if I tried....so unnatural. It looks forced, as an afterthought.
I'd love to see John Schulz shoot that style at 30 yards and maybe even 40 yards. Shooting coins in flight at less than 20 feet doesn't make for marksmanship to me. All of those accuracy flicks only shoot at very close distances.
Now, I'm not talking about that Col. who shoots three under with self bows out to a hundred yards. I can't think of his name as I'm bad with names, but you know who I'm referring to. He has several videos out and he's a machine with a bow and arrow. But, he ain't using no hill style either. :)
Here’s 2 pictures of John shooting about 21 years apart. The top picture my wife took in 2013 at the TAS Trad Bowhunter World Championship and the bottom picture John’s son Dave took at the Great Lakes Longbow Invitational around 1994.
I didn’t know my wife took the top picture until later and that’s when I noticed John’s form hasn’t changed. In 2013, at age 81, John still had the same solid form and release.
Foxbo. I've shot with John and even at 84 he still shoots that good. The system works if you commit to it, and really learn it. I'm proof of it as well.
Howdy Ole Nate! I ain't never seen such shooting accuracy with a bow and that style. Please tell him to make a video! For that matter, you make one too. I'd be first in line to purchase it! Not saying it can not be done. I've just never witnessed it. Without sights, or some point of aim method, I've never seen anyone shoot with accuracy past 25 or 30 yards. I'm not talking about one arrow. I'm referring to a group of at least three arrows.
Sounds to me like Foxy doesn't understand some things and has a bur stuck his pants. At 42 yards the top of my point ferrule is just under the deer's chest line, I suppose that doesn't count because of the instant aiming reference, but the shot was about a one second tempo from start of the draw to release and the deer died with a nasty gouge across the back of his heart. But then there are the two pheasants that i shot this year, just no other way that works as well. One was super fast and short and the other was crazy long and lucky. Stick to your whatever, your opinion will not be relevant to Hill style shooters.
Ed, I don’t think Nate is going to run out and make a video but here’s one of Nate’s customers shooting at 33 yards. Grab some popcorn, this guy made a few other good videos.
Hey Darren, I'm not referring to 20 or 30 yards with one shot. I'm referring to 20 to 30 yards with at least three arrows, not just one lucky shot. And, I'd love to see that style used in a hunting video. Can't remember ever seeing it in that application. OK, I'm waiting...
"Ed, I don’t think Nate is going to run out and make a video but here’s one of Nate’s customers shooting at 33 yards."
I don't think so either, but, here's what I'm talking about. I want to see a simple video of Nate, or anyone else who is a master of the hill style, shoot a three shot group at 20, 30, and 40 yards.
I want to see accuracy at real hunting distances. I am not interested in balloons at over a hundred yards. Let me see a real shooter at 20, 30, and 40 yards.
With this style of shooting, as you bring your bow arm up, and come to anchor you should be on target. It’s another way of shooting the longbow, if you practice it you’ll see. Merry Christmas, Darren
Ed, you old goat. Anytime you want to shoot with me, come on out. I'll prove it to you. Even on a recovering new hip. Ha ha. This photo from two weeks ago, roving, three shot group. 74 paces, and my paces aren't short because I'm 6'2".
Well I can attest to watching his video in VHS when it came out and just wore that tape out watching it. I think the key to this style of shooting is the bottom finger or ring finger or trigger finger as I call it. Most of the pressure of the string is on the bottom finger. Snap the finger off or back to start the release of the string. I'll say another thing here too, light bows make for a hard release or a harder to do release than a heavy draw weight bow. This is one of the reason back in the 80's I started to develop the muscle groups to handle heavy bows, you just get a super clean release. Also on moving targets I found that my hand didn't stay on my face or at anchor as well as it did on stationary targets. That is just form and follow through if you ask me.
As for shooting at distance and multiple arrows I don't see why anyone can't do it ESPECIALLY Mr. Schulz. Think about this, think of all the arrows you have shot in your lifetime and then think of all the arrows he has shot in his lifetime. Think of any shot you have done and then shots he has done. You think you can muster up and match what he has done then make a video and let us all judge for ourselves by posting it so we can watch it. As for me I'm sticking with at least some of the time with being able to Hittem like Howard Hill just by watching the original Hittin'em Like Howard Hill.
74 paces? Did you use the hill style, or point of aim? :)
I want to see some one shoot the hill style, three arrows each at 20, 30 and 40 yards for a group. I want to see an archer shoot those arrows at a 3D target and count the kill hits. I do not believe it can be done each and every shot. I'm an old man. I've been hunting with the bow and arrow since 1968. There is no magic to the arrow except that of the archer. I've made some pretty long range shots in my time, but it does not equal professionalism on every shot.
My point is that it seems to me you are doubting for some reason Schulz credentials, and the skill of folks shooting a Hill style longbow etc. in general. I was just trying to justify and explain the technique of shooting a longbow like Hill and Schulz as I see it and practice it. What I have found through the years what has worked for me and how I learned to do it. That's pretty much it.
Professionalism doesn't come from shooting an arrow either. It comes from making a living at something and succeed in doing so.
"Ed, you old goat. Anytime you want to shoot with me, come on out."
Well, ole Nate, the invitation extends to you, ole boy! I own fifty aces here and I'd love to have you here to shoot and enjoy each others company. I'm an eastern boy and don't know squat about the west.
As I do all my deer hunting from a trerstand I've watched Howard shoot the croc in the tembo movie 50 plus times. As this is as close as you will see him shooting from a tree stand. I noticed his swing is very short and his arm is already forward when he starts the draw.
My point is that it seems to me you are doubting for some reason Schulz credentials, and the skill of folks shooting a Hill style longbow etc. in general
That's correct. All I ask is to come to me and shoot a three shot group at 20, 30 and 40 yards.
I am not interested in history. Just come and shoot the groups.
Ed, shooting at the clump by the lower arrow, which was the first shot. Schulz didn't teach me to shoot groups, he stressed the first shot. Groups are for targets. Ed, how many deer or rabbits let you shoot a group on them? First shot roving is a good indicator of hunting shot skill, imho
Broke 2 arrows resulting from using the first arrow as a target while stump shooting today. One at 35 yds and the other 45. That’s as close as I come to shooting groups. And no, that does NOT happen all the time :) But then again, I’m not a target archer...
I don’t think anything anyone can post will suffice, as you have your thoughts, but Rémy is exceptional, not “lucky”.
That is interesting dean about the hybrid and being in the pocket . Got me wondering about my short drawing a hybrid although I have complete confidence in my set up. I will check it out.
Tinbow, that NAT really picks up steam with anything over 26", the limb tips give a little motion at 26" and that is where the bow's power picks up very quickly. When my wife in full strength form she draws 26&1/4" to 26&1/2". However, she is more fluid and coordinated with her longbow and shooting more of a Hill form versus the reaching for the long draw form that she always tries with a pistol grip bow. She seems to be more consistent with the straighter gripped longbow and settling at 26". Not saying one is right and the other is wrong, it depends on which one she can repeat most consistently. She had a couple of health issues that robbed her of her shooting time this year, so her strength for most of the bow season was suffering.
Not that I always shoot at game at that range, ;) but knowing the flat angle of those arrows at that distance, the arrows were pretty much all in the gold, and that'd kill any deer where I'm from, so really, none of the arrows were off the mark.
I shoot quick with no point of aim or gap although I am aware of my arrow tip. I don't consciously use it to aim with
When the arrow gets closer, I notice it more. You know, when I was a kid, i watched farmers. theater day I saw two farmers who were obviously out standing in their field. I said to my farmer buddy, "Wait for it, one of them is going topping at something and then other will point at something else. Let's guess what they are pointing at." Farmer friend said, "there is no way that you can know that." And sure as anything, the one farmer pointed at something across the field that they were out standing in, the theater pointed at something across the road at some cows, who were also out standing in their particular field. Mikey said, "That's too easy, they were pointing at air planes that were flying around kinda low." He didn't need to go out and look down their arms to see that. Just think how much easier it is to know where an arrow, that is right under your eye, is going to end up.
I’ve said it before some folks get Howard’s teaching some don’t Like John,Nate,Darren,Dean and many others have said it’s s system of shooting that goes with the ASL,if you get it you’ll enjoy it,but IT IS NOT A TARGET OR TOURNAMENT STYLE OF SHOOTING THE LONGBOW,,it’s a hunting method or technique It’s not for everybody What I have done and like to do is educate myself on a given subject before I disown it or dislike it or hell bad mouth it to others that enjoy it Ignorance is bliss
Now Foxy,,my friend Darren organizes,promotes and basicly busts his butt on an outstanding traditional archery competition that includes,America in 4 sections,among many other country’s Traditional Bowhunter World Championship Now I’m no target archer,I but I shoot Howard Hills system of shooting,,,I’m a hunter But I notice we’re both on the east coast,,and not that far away ; ) Maybe Darren will chime in and post next years place and date for this event in the northeast or southeast and we can meet up and loose some arrows That way we can meet new friends have some fun,you can see what we all mean about shooting the ASL in this form or system and then develop an opinion either way based on facts and real life experiences It’s be a lot if fun And if you want for the sake of aurgument,,,I’ll shoot you for points and fun and the glory of internet bragging rights : 0
I shoot strickly instinctive to bout 30yrds and after that split vision Hill style ASL’s only,,,,hell I’ll bring one of Nates fine sticks to use,,woods arrows Just throwing it out there proof is in the pudding
It is more like "If I can't do it, others can't do it too no matter what they are saying. And if they are doing it better than me, they are not doing it right" kind of debate.
Focus on what you can do and let the others to deal with what they can or not do.
",,,,hell I’ll bring one of Nates fine sticks to use,,woods arrows Just throwing it out there proof is in the pudding"
Hey mountain man, Nate built me a bow and I received it in Nov of 2006, so I kind of know a bit about what you're talking about. I would love to shoot with you and anyone else as in my area there are no trad shooters at all. I've never seen another trad shooter in my life around here. I've seen compound guys and crossbow guys, but no trad guys at all. That's just the way it is.
I can shoot the hill style and am able to hit pop cans within a reasonable distance. I just never trusted it for hunting, especially deer. I do not have the confidence to loose an arrow at an animal with that style. I'm too much engrained with the "feel" of instinctive shooting. I have to draw, aim, and release, and sometimes holding at anchor longer than other times.
I understand the deal with a fast hill style one arrow for game. I'd love to see it deployed on a 3D target at hunting distances as I have never witnessed it.
You are most welcome at my home at anytime and we can shoot any style or target you want. Sandbaggers welcome too! :)
Fox,I could suggest aiming the way Jerry Hill explains in his little book about Howard Hill's aiming method. When Jerry did his filming for 'you asked for it', he aimed a bit on the stationary shots. To be honest, I aimed a bit when testing which arrows would be best out of my Sunset Hill. These are my test arrows, which vary from 450 grains to 600 grains, in various spines and point weights. The shots were from about 25 yards, sitting and I used the exact same secondary aiming point for every shot, they all flew right and were repeated good groups with no clear winner. Aiming can be done with a longbow, I guess it could be used as an as needs basis if one wants.
Hey dean, that's the only way it works for me. I have to aim and hold a bit. I can shoot the swing draw and hit pop cans, but I don't trust it enough to use it on animals. I admire the shooters who can, but I am not one of them. If I could witness it, then maybe I could believe in it enough to try it.:)
Once secondary vision has been part of one's training it is very difficult to not use it. It can be more or less fluid, either way that takes dedicated practice. For myself, it becomes so automatic that I sometimes wonder I aimed or shot instinctive. At 40 yards I may look like l am taking a fast fluid instinctive shot, but it is not.
I'm so engrained in my regular style of drawing, anchoring, aiming and releasing, that I don't trust any other style. That's it in a nutshell.
I'm almost 65 and I've been doing this since the late sixties. I have to draw and get a "feel" before I release. Nothing is hurried. The hill style does not work for me. I shoot those style bows, but I don't pretend that I'm an ace hill style shooter when I know that it doesn't work for me.
I've seen all the videos and none of them shoot further than twenty feet. I don't buy it and I don't believe it either. So, I guess I'm now an outcast in the hill style community for speaking the truth as I know it. I've read about how great it is, but I've never witnessed it. So to me it does not exist.
I also have a copy of Howard hunting in Africa and I did not witness him using the hill style in that flick. It was clear that he would draw, anchor, aim, and release the arrow. At least that's how I saw it.
OK, the hill style to me is a bunch of bullcrap. I don't buy it, but I don't blame others for claiming it is a great way to shoot. Each to his own. It does not work for me, at least I don't trust it. Sorry guys, but that's just me.
Well this went down hill quickly so i’ll just shoot my longbows like I do and would love some 1 on 1 shooting lessens from Sunset Hill, John Shultz, Jerry Hill, Gary Sentman, Ron LaClair or Steve Turey. Not sure they can correct 50+ years of bad habits but it would be fun anyway and i’ll bbq and provide the scotch.
It’s not for everybody If your confident in that style then you shouldn’t hunt with it It does take time and patients to get confident in the true swing draw style and in my opinion it’s something that has to be practiced regularly to be proficient I’ve been lucky to take many different animals with said style My favorite is spruce grouse and squirrels,,,I think I herd someone say once in the subject,,”Ya can’t be afraid to miss” I shoot 3D on occasion,,I have a lot of fun and I’m usually the only ASL shooter let alone from a back quiver with wood arrows swing draw It’s definitely the hard way and a lot of guys don’t give it there all or enough time to really understand it It is s system it’s more then just the bow
I am so sorry that I may have come across as a basher of the hill style here. Really, I did not know that it was so guarded. I've played around with the style for a period of years, but I've never ever proclaimed that I did not trust it before. I do not trust it as a sighting method for big game. That is my problem, not anyone else's. Do I really want to see a hill shooter shoot at a 3d target at 20, 30, 40yds? Absolutely! Just give me the date and time and we will be in business. I will not have faith in the hill system unless I see it for myself.
Those Foxer, you have watched the videos of Howard Hill shooting. Howard Hill shooting a bow, would be witnessing the Howard Hill style. Many of the shots are slowed down quite a bit, so a slight sinking into anchor will look like a fairly definite hold. When you see Howard shoot, you see the bow come up, take a bit of a down and right hook while the draw is completed in a straight back finish to the draw, the anchor sinks hard and the arrow is gone. That is Hill style as shown by Hill. What to you is 'hill style' or 'hill system'? As far as aiming, John Schulz went into deep explanation about form that reduces the elevation of the ratio from the arrow to the target. He also talked of aiming in terms of arrow tip , knuckle, whatever you will in line of the target and the single most important thing is 'boring a hole through it'. Not a mechanical explanation, but still inferring the pieces and parts Hill's explanation of 'imaginary' secondary point of aim. John thought that Hill was more of a 'conditioned' instinctive shooter when he shot with him as he did not go in to lessons of aiming with them, even though the detailed explanation is in the Hill book and other articles. It could also be that Hill's lessons were specifically tailored to what the Schulz boys needed. If you think about it a detailed explanation as Hill gave is pretty much what the onboard computers can do with the same sight picture over time. The eyes see what the eyes see, the on board computer does not request permission or require a button to be pushed to operate. Not all people have the hand eye coordination to consistently have a repeatable one second tempo complete shot.
Foxy Ed ol' boy. I still like you... Even if you're in a black hole out there and have never seen a longbowman shoot in the Hill style. Can't hold that against you, but just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It does. I went out today for the last day of deer season...first three arrows to warm up, into a 12mph breeze. Shot first arrow, it flipped sideways so I tried to hit the fletch. 77 long paces. About 7" vertical spread between high and low arrows. Not bad for a system that I refer as shooting by conditioned instinct as John Schulz calls it. When you want to see some shooting, you head out west. We'll go long range desert stumping. :)
B0atbuilder-I’d love to take you up on the shooting and bbq. Comradary was a big thing in the traditional archers way of life. I have shot many arrows with John Schulz and his family. I’ve listened to him tell many stories about Howard Hill. When it comes to shooting form I will speak for myself.
I grew up shooting a heavy bow of 75#’s plus. I memorized everything Howard Hill said in writing. Never met Howard Hill personally. I can tell you there is a very fine line between shooting proper Hill style and slinging arrows by snap shooting. I call it half draw creep release. I have seen some of this unorthodox form even with the late Hill in his movies.
If one can draw the bow keeping a good strong bow arm out front, come back, touch his release (preferably with the thumb behind the jaw bone) and release “almost” instantly. In this area is where the fine line is drawn.
When I moved south from Alaska I began to shoot more 3D targets and less hunting and shooting stumps through the woods over the year for practice. I found myself trying to hold at full draw longer for more precise shooting. I began to notice some pain showing up particularly in my shoulders. When I used the touch release a heavy bow was no problem. Holding a heavy bow at full draw began to develop various problems. I won’t go into detail.
As for John Schulz he was a good speaker, devoted archer and followed the Hill style as best he could in detail. When the smoke cleared in John’s case what you see is what you got. Moosejaw Gary Sentman
Fox, I bet if you watch the Schulz and Hill videos, what John says is every bit as important as what he shows. Then go out with a quiver load of wood arrows and shoot at a large target that is shoulder height in the middle, just go out and then slowly and repeatedly pound that target, 'swing draw, (bow hand comes up slightly faster than the drawing hand) anchor deep (middle finger somewhere easy around the corner of the mouth with the thumb coming behind the jaw bone), release' Swing draw, anchor deep, release. Get to a state of ZEN, just do it, calmness and the whole thing will start to click. My favorite quote from Hill "too much thinking can be bad for concentration"
If you were behind Nates arrows looking down them I think you'd see that his second and third arrows didn't miss the first by more than 2 or 3 inches. At that angle even a close miss is gonna travel some before it hits the ground.
Arvid Danielson saw HH shoot. He later became one of the top tournament shots and beat HH's tournaments scores as well as making the Olympic team and was also an accomplished trick shot. I asked Arvid what he thought HH could do on the 300 round and he said maybe 260 with his longbow. Now that is very good with a trad. bow, but that level of performance equates to about 6-8" groups at 20 yds.
When I shot with Arvid, that was about what he did in his backyard shooting in sort of a hybrid tournament/hunting style with a 40# hunting bow. Arvid doesn't practice too much anymore because of health issues. He did shoot back to back 300s on the the 300 round with a full out tournament recurve.
target target who cares. Now one arrow under pressure that's a real test. How many apples and figs did Howard Hill shoot off of peoples heads without one death? I tried a couple of years ago. I took a gallon milk jug and painted a face on it with magic markers. I thought it looked just like the turkey that I was intending, but others thought it looked more like a well hated woman in our community. Another one of those Bob Ross 'happy accident' moments, I guess. Since the guys said I drew a face, I put an apple on top from my apple tree. That poor milk jug took a beating that day, I can hit a small apple 3 out of 7 tries from 18 yards. Howard Hill visualized animals on the targets when he shot. I took a shot at a rabbit the other day that was sitting there minding his own business. Thinking back to that milk jug, I visualized an apple on his head, thinking that would give me a 4 out 7 chance to eat a grilled rabbit. At about 34 yards, I would have hit an apple on that rabbits head.
Foxbo, I can't shoot the Hill style either. I keep trying and maybe one day it will work for me. I have been trying to shoot this method off and on since the early 1980's so time is running out. :) One of my friends and I used to rabbit and squirrel hunt a lot and he shot this quick fluid style and was better on small game than I have ever been even though I think I could have out shot him on targets nearly every time. I have taken a lot of game over the years with a bow but I think if I could have mastered the Hill style of shooting, I would have taken more. JMHO
It’s been a while since I’ve watched this old boy. Notice how similar some of his form is to Howard’s. Of course since he isn’t shooting groups at 30 yds, so you really can’t call him a good shot either...;)
When I got rid of my training bows, light draw Pearson Pony d/r flat limbs. The two girls that got two of them, learned how to shoot a fluid and well controlled Hill style faster than any man that I ever taught. I gave out a dozen arrow with them, they wanted six target points and six with HTMS for shooting at soccer balls. Shooting at a bouncing soccer ball was archery for them.
That sounded a bit short David. Sorry about that. But it is true, most are well aware. Think about the last movie you saw. That wasn’t real either. Movies are meant to entertain. Howard was a great entertainer as well.
I just got back online since over a month and a half ago. I love the hill style bows and I love the hill style. I can shoot the hill style but I do not trust it on big game. I have to draw, anchor, aim, and release. That's just the way it is with me. I have all respect for shooters like Nate Steen who can shoot the hill style. I can do it too, but I don't trust it on big game. I have to have more of a method of aiming and shooting. Each to his own. God bless....Ed.
Ed, most people try to rush Hill style development and miss the fine points, try to add complications or think it should be something that can be done in 50 or less shots.
Howard Hill drew to anchor, aimed and released. He just did it quickly. You have to shoot how you shoot best. You don't get points for how well you imitate someone else, especially if you can't hit that way.
You can practice in your own way and learn to shoot quickly when needed. Most shots aren't that hurried, but it's handy when hunting pheasants and rabbits...and sometimes squirrels.
I see it way too often, that people immediately go to that grip and rip it speed when thinking that are doing what Hill would do. "Howard would actually have us count, 1,,2,,3,,4,,5,,shoot" that is not grip and rip fast. Nothing wrong with taking Hill's advice, we do not need to reinvent every wheel, but with any refined technique, you need to find where you fit in it.
Game Warden Joe says that a chiropractor can sign the 'poor cripple needs a crossbow' permit. A bit stiff and achy in the and shoulder blades today. I wonder if a crossbow can be shot Hill style. I also wonder what would get stiff and achy cocking and lugging a crossbow around. I have not been shooting, I have been lifting weights, doing the laundry and all kinds of other unnatural stuff, my wife fell on ice and broke her arm. Maybe we both need crossbows, this keeping in shape to shoot longbows is hard. Perhaps Foxer would be best served with a more static weapon like a compound with a draw lock. i am told those are just about as good as a crossbow.
You won't see anyone shooting bare bow the HH way in the Lancaster bare bow finals or even just instinctively. It's a losing proposition if you want ultimate accuracy. Just the FACTS. Yes, it is the perfect method for some types of hunting and it may be the perfect method for YOU...
Another stiff static target shooting method with limitations, I really, don't know why string crawlers don't use bow sights. It seems like a long ways to go just to have something to lay on a target. Even though I am a Hill style shooter, it would offend me in anyway if you chose to shoot with a bow sight on a fine tuned high grade takedown. I completely understand that some people do not have the time and energy it takes to do things the Hill way, but really three sight pins is a lot easier to set up and use than three fixed crawl positions.
Howard Hill's William Tell shots were not legit? So the 'Straight As An arrow' film is a lie? What's next, these were all shot with a shotgun? Sounds like CNN.
RC, string walking is not the hill style of shooting. Three under is not hill style shooting, at least not the way I've learned it. I agree it is more accurate, but it does not fit in with the snap shooting style of the hill style. You know that, right?
The more I read this site, the more I think I'm crazy. :_)
I can look at the target, and use the swing draw, bringing my bow hand up, as I finish the draw and release as I come upon target. It works for fun for me but for big game, I have to use a sort of push/pull, anchor, aim, anchor, and release. That's just the way it is with me. Sorry. Fred Bear's method has worked for me for a very long time.
And, one more thing that will make the hill style shooters crazy. :) That "book" of John Schulz, titled "Hitting'em like Howard Hill", it ain't no book. It's a brochure at best with only 45 pages with the same wording as the video. :) I like it for entertainment, but it ain't the gospel of archery. So Howard was the only one to teach him., big deal...
...I drew my second arrow from the quiver and made the shot at 65 yards. If that's the case, it was pure luck.
OK, I'm sure there are archers much better than myself on this site. However, If you think you can consistently engage game targets at anything past 25 yards with no sights, then you are exceptional. The word is "consistently". 25 yards is a long ways in the tree covered woods during Autumn in the eastern woods. I guess though, yards are the same everywhere.
There are always exceptional people, but I have not been witness of it concerning traditional archery
Ed, I think you may have a mistaken notion of how Howard Hill aimed and shot, or perhaps others have a mistaken notion how Howard Hill was a grip and rip it shooter. Jerry Hill's book which is even a smaller 'pamphlet' as you put it. Describes the more mechanical aspects. The problem here is that Ed knows what is not what Howard Hill would do or teach, he simply does not understand what Howard Hill actually did and taught. Or perhaps the work it takes to develop the skills is frightening in some way, that would explain the childish lashing out on a thread that is not about him and his way. Every time there is any kind of discussion concerning Howard Hill's shooting or John Schulz's teaching, you winey babies come jumping out of the wood work. This forum is hard to take? This forum is loaded with pathetic egoistical babies. Bye Bye
Some of us seem to possess more kinesthetic awareness than others (Howard was a gifted athlete, something that carried over into archery). Personally, for me it is a challenge but I use the method taught by John because it is the best for the variety of situations encountered in the field. Were I a target archer I'd be doing something different.
Do any of you guys have a theory why everyone who received personal instruction from Hill seem to have different styles of shooting? Just something I always wondered about
I think Hill told people what they wanted to hear in the case of the majority of his admirers/followers. I think for his personal one on one training, it was more in depth. However, we're all individuals and we cannot physically copy every aspect of his form "as a clone". Even devout followers will each have a little different adjustment of his specific form to their physical abilities.
One thing to remember. Of all the people in the world that were Hill's students, pupils, family, friends, etc...his wife knew of no one that she could "trust" who would convey his method, in detail, as well as John Schulz. That says a lot to me. So then you're left with sorting out the "instruction" of others, how much is actual Hill teaching and how much is their imagination. Do the research well enough and you find out who's who.
Greg..... in my opinion (and ya' know what folks say about those)actually they don't have a different way of shooting as much as they have a different way of describing the process.
I PERSONALLY think that the 2 best descriptions of Howard Hills method of shooting are the description that Hill gives in Unthing the Hard Way, and the description that Bob Wesley gives in his book.
The John Schulz video does do a good job of discussing the form/alignment, grip and so on. but other than that, he really doesn't give much in depth instruction on the actual process of aiming.
And yes, I have very deep respect for John Schulz.
For what it is worth I have studied Howard for years. Conversed with people who have “learned” from him those who have wrote books and shared what they say he said. I try and be very middle of the road and I have only completed my personal knowledge as to the complete shooting process recently. It is time that we come together so that future generations continue this knowledge. Whether it be shooting like Howard Hill did or the bow building. I do not want the knowledge to be lost. Howard did things for a reason. Please know that no matter how close people say he was to them that all masters keep some secrets to themselves.
One thing that I see when viewing the Hill films. His shooting did not change from target to game. Many of us copiers, seems to have one form for thumping a hill side, another form for trying to get a score on a foam target and yet another for trying to hit a deer. Many hunters get themselves all bound up when shooting at a deer, especially from tree stands. I know that my best form is when I am trying to hit a dry milkweed pod from about 45 yards and there is a reason for that casual Hill like rhythm and perfection. I do not think there is much of a chance that i will hit it, but if I do it will be fun. Imagine how a nervous buck changes everything right from the initial shot preparation, stance and shot timing. That is the point where many tend to jump into something completely different from casual Hill-like shot precesses. I am guilty of the same. I can thump a broad head arrow into a clay bank and tag my finger lightly with the head every shot, but often I do not tag the head on my finger when shooting at game. I am always left wondering how short that draw really was. I think I tend to bow into the shot more at game at times. Other times I am charged up and I tend to draw to far, especially when shooting at pheasants and rabbits. Experience is a good teacher. When I had a pocket full of doe tags from a farmer wanting to rid of his excess numbers of deer, The first deer, usually a buck, was a careful goose necking chicken shot that I took with great care, but later when the yearling does had put on some weight and temps were getting colder, my shot turned more into a heads up power shot.
"However, we're all individuals and we cannot physically copy every aspect of his form "as a clone"." - In my opinion this plays out most prominently in the anchor. For my hand and head I simply cannot comfortably anchor like most. My anchor tends to be a bit lower. But it works. No, I'm not a Hill, nor a Schulz, but it works.
"I can thump a broad head arrow into a clay bank and tag my finger lightly with the head every shot, but often I do not tag the head on my finger when shooting at game." - This is my "clicker" and it works wonders in maintaining a consistent draw. When I'm shooting field points, or blunts and the like it ain't there but when shooting the Hill broadheads I've come to love, that back of the head just touching my finger is the perfect draw stop.
I try to tag the head every shot, sometimes I don't. I decided to shorten my draw one day so I cut a half inch off of my arrows for my 89 pound bow, I just wanted to not need to stretch to reach the 27" draw. I was given advice from the master that I may be over drawing. The first shot i took at a deer with the shorter arrows, the new Jerry Hill head bit into my finger and I pulled the arrow right off the string. I felt it go and held, while the arrow fell between the bow and the string. I did that once again this past season with a 145 Ribtec on a 27"bop cedar shooting at a pheasant. I wonder if I am expecting too much, consistency, I believe Hill had some draw length variances as well. I tend to draw a quarter inch long right handed and a quarter inch short left handed, something to work on.
I learned how to shoot a longbow by watching Shultz's instructional video in the late 80's. Was fortunate to meet and shoot with him a bit and to this day I still shoot the Hill method. I have also guided 100's of trad shooters/hunters over the past 24 years. The bottom line is the majority of trad shooters cannot shoot worth a damn at live animals. Doesn't matter if its the Hill method, Asbell's method, Fred Bears, 3 under, split, clicker, gap, point of aim, etc etc etc. Whitetail out of a tree stand not included....but even then (in my experience). Im not saying there aren't great shots out there, but I haven't experienced many and I have been around those that are. Shooting targets, stumps, clumps, discs, and whatever else is great practice but no comparison to the real thing. But those shooting sessions are in preparation for the real thing. The pressure shooting an animal is when all of our practice subconsciously kicks in. I find for myself that the Hill method best suites those situations and takes the least amount of conscious thought under pressure. I am not including shooting pigs/whitetail at feeders, or watching a whitetail walking toward my tree stand. Heat of the moment, split second decision making. BUT, there is no right or wrong way. Its what works for you. Us trad guys are so damn opinionated, and feel the need to thrash those that aren't like us (kinda like liberals). Having a shoot out, or videoing our shots to prove a point is pointless. Show us your trophy rooms, and the results of your shooting prowess might be best if you MUST prove your point. Otherwise have fun watching that arrow fly regardless of your shooting method...
"Yup, nothing beats 3 fingers under string walking and using the arrow point as a front sight." It's pretty good, but I'll improve it and then beat the improvement with even better methods.
"Having a shoot out, or videoing our shots to prove a point is pointless. Show us your trophy rooms, and the results of your shooting prowess might be best if you MUST prove your point."
Bowhunting may indeed be the ultimate test. Many methods will fall apart under real world bowhunting conditions. E.g., a ten step shot sequence. Good luck with that when a big bull elk is charging right in. People miss an elk at 6 yards?. What happened???
foxbo, there are some who can shoot really good groups instinctively and even with a swing draw, but the question is just how consistently can they do it. You sure don't see top tournament scores being shot this way. In recent years aiming with the fixed crawl and string walking is easily proven to be more accurate in tournaments.
However, for bowhunting....one can't deny instinctive shooting can work very well esp. at close range and certainly it's the go to method for running or flying game.
Like the politician that wouldn't know which end of a bb gun to put on his shoulder said "If you guys would just give in, you could all be killing deer with crossbows, then you wouldn't lose all of those deer every year that you hit." Who slipped him money, I wonder. Maybe he was right, my wife has a seriously broken arm and my shoulder is kind of stiff today, snowblower accident, we both now qualify to use crossbows. Just think of all of the deer that she won't be losing every year. We never lost a deer that she hit before, but with a crossbow they will die way betterest than ever before. A game warden offered a pass so we could use a four wheeler on public land. Just think we won't have to get tired walking, we won't wear ourselves down with all of that practicing. A crossbow and a four wheeler fixes everything.
Who doesn’t love a man wearing a safari suit with a small moustache ...
I don’t really care how he does it ...
Doesn’t work for everyone. Nor should it ...
Plenty of other fine methods... and a good string walker is a dang fine thing to watch ... as is an archer toting a Longbow and shootit well instinctively .,,
People should shoot their bows in the most accurate way it works for them ...
One of my joys since I was a kid has been airguns. I recently took the largest deer ever taken with an airgun (to the best of my knowledge) during rifle season. Don't want them in bow season, but ya' for me it was about equal in fun to taking the same deer with my recurve.
Ben, well said. There's a lot of mystique about Howard Hill's accuracy. I'm going to believe what Arvid Danielson told me and if true, on paper, the better fixed crawl/string walkers are more accurate. Trick shooting - different story. HH did about as good as anyone could have during those times. Right man at the right time...
Years back the rabbits were destroying our garden. I fenced around it. The peas would pop up, the next morning they were completely gone. The next night I went out with my BB gun gave it two pumps. Three rabbits did hail mary leaps over my chicken wire. I was mad one stopped in the backyard two doors down, maybe 75 yards and stopped. I wanted him to running, i aimed with the glow in the dark sights about a foot above it and shot. Two pumps, the rabbit died. I felt awful, I thought about what to do while I sat in the dark by my grill. Early summer rabbit tastes okay on the grill. But I have never tried to grow peas in my garden again, and everything that they liked to eat is now elevated. Never fails an online discussion about John Schulz cannot be had without the descenders that cannot do it or do not understand it jumping all over the place. I still do not know why three and four pin bow sights are not in common use with recurve shooters, I have not seen a compound without one in years.
Of course, I am kidding around. I may need to find my wife a left hand longbow, not sure how durable she will be shooting right handed. It seems that she has gone to a non dominant eye situation like me. She is mostly left handed with other things. I will say that her Hill longbow form is smooth, she got all of the power her bow had to give and was deadly accurate out to ranges most bowhunters fear. She had bad blood pressure last summer, we hunted a mile from the car, by the third week of deer season, she could not tolerate her blood pressure meds, she had normal blood pressure without it. Work and effort is a good thing. Hill style shooting takes work and effort. What gets me is if a 66 year old woman can be good at it, why is it so difficult for young studly guys with a pants load of testosterone. They must be missing something in the training or the effort.
The more I shoot the longbow, the more I realize how wise were the teachings John Schulz, personally to me. Be fluid, shoot as fluidly as possible, don't let anything in thought or action disrupt being fluid. No thought of anchor, no thought of form, no checklist, no hat brim to rub the string...nothing to disrupt the concentration on the target and a fluid shot. It trumps any small variances or nuances in form, because by its design a straight end longbow shooting wood arrows is forgiving of such things. His instructions to me were for shooting the longbow well enough to take game in the field under the varying conditions that may come up when one is hunting on their feet, stillhunting and stalking and not setting up a sniper situation. He differentiated between shooting at close bales for form and shooting to hit game in the field. The form shooting thoughts get left at the bales.
I watch a lot of hunting videos. Most are shooting compound bows. It’s such a different approach. They need the game still. They need time to align the sights. With high let-off they draw early and wait to release. It looks so unnatural, so out of place in the woods. Yeah, it can be made to work (obviously), but my what a strange way to hunt.
Fluid and natural is very difficult for folks to envision these days. Particularly, as was mentioned, with most of the video's and hunting shows promoting a style of shooting that is quite different.
There is a tendency in todays world to over think most processes, and shooting a bow is one of these things.
It's all about what is the most natural and fun for you and allowing you to achieve the level of accuracy that you want to achieve under the conditions that you shoot.
I'd argue aiming, in fact, is very natural. Strange to me is to expect to be successful swing arming the bow up like Schultz did. Yes, you can be successful that way but wow good luck in using that method in a hunting blind a well as many other situations esp. when calling game in and they are on full alert. Sure, wait for them to look the other way. Good luck with that. I can't recall many elk or deer looking backward when I called them in.
Shot this bull from a tight blind. Wouldn't have happened trying to swing arm the bow and shoot thru the window slot. Hunting blinds are one of the biggest aids to hunting close that man has invented.
I wonder how many HH/Schulz proponents book a hunt and find out the outfitter uses blinds with the hunter just realizing he can't use the swing arm method until he actually is in the blind!
Good luck with stalking antelope (to give one example of an alternative) or even calling them in...Conider also tree stands, ladder stands, tripods, etc. are also often a "no go" for swing arm proponents (depending on their construction, branches in the way, etc.).
No problem for the stalker...assuming your game will look directly away from you...
A blind should be a non-issue with any shooting method. Everybody has to raise the bow to shooting position (whatever that is) Hill and Schulz just did it a different way, sort of.
As for aiming, aiming is natural. The way some folks do it isn't natural or fluid. Hill was an aimer, and described the process.
Thre are different ways to aim, everyone has to make the decision of what method is the most natural, the easiest to duplicate, and causes the least amount of stress for that individual. Aiming is easy. It's the other stuff that's tough.
fop, have you hunted out of pop up blinds? I've never been in one where I felt I could use a swing drawn. Won't say it's impossible, but the two don't mix well at all.
Justin, thx.; bow is a River's Edge Arroyo recurve 54"/52 lbs.
David...we were making blinds that are the equivalent of the pop blinds in the late '70's and early '80's out of canvas and pvc pipe so yes. I was also a distributor rep for several of the early makers, and played with them a lot.
I really didn't say anything about using a swing draw in a pop up blind. I'm pretty confident that most folks are (Howard and John included) fairly capable of adapting to what is required to get their bow into shooting position.
I can understand David's position on longbow shooting Hill style, he does not understand anything about it. He must think that we are all limited robots that cannot adapt to variations.
Let's just admit it, we are fools for trying to be proficient at something that takes so much effort. The compounds and and now the new super crossbows are superior in every way, even superior to David's goofy ways. I really don't care how anyone shoots or what they shoot. Some folks like to stoke up their egos and put people down a strutting contest, it all is really is rather pointless. The game warden made the suggestion again, if my wife goes to crossbows, I am too. I am more musician than bow shooter, I played the Bach 1006 suite and the Chaconne last night at gathering of classical musician, music professors and students. I would miss the intellectual contact with my musical friends if my hands gave out.
Swing arm is simply a way to teach form to concentrate on a target and get your bow on a target and is not used in all situations as comments above seem to point to. It's a safe way to teach everyone to shoot showing you should swing up on the target and not down from the sky. Hill, Shultz, Pearson etc, all shot game from blinds and anyone who thinks they didn't because they could use the swing arm method as they taught is being completely unrealistic. I as so many use swing arm and yet shoot from a popup blind w/ no issues. As I watch shooters of these two styles no matter where I go the time one spends lifting up and holding out their bow and concentrating on a target, drawing back and shooting always seems to be inline as one spends concentrating on their target and swinging their arm up, drawing and shooting. The arrows seems to get there the same time from start to finish.
In my experience the swing arm method (never called it that, but I suppose it's a valid description of the method taught by Schulz) is most conducive to hunting as you can make the shot under nearly any circumstance. But, you've got to be able to read game like an open Dick and Jane book and perhaps this is an instinct some simply have not developed (or do not possess).
As far as being able to shoot with swing draw out of a blind, obviously it depends on how much room there is. Yes, you can adapt to the situation and end up with a push pull or a very abbreviated movement. But now you are no longer using swing draw as Schultz, Asbell, etc. teach.
Logically, swinging the bow arm up from low to shooting position or modifying that somewhat is a movement game will spot unless they are looking away, esp. at the close ranges trad. bowhunters prefer. Why would anyone want to handicap themselves with such a movement? It is also a recipe for failure when say, more than one deer is in front on you.
Certainly in calling, game is usually on high alert as they move toward to or near you. Consider also, most who argue for this method are not just swinging their bow arm up, they are usually (not always) doing upper and lower body movements, lowering and leaning into the shot so to speak.Why reduce your odds of success with such a movement?
The reason is because the people who teach this method feel it important to help them time their shot and is part and parcel of the method's biomechanics.
There is no other reason to do this much movement. True? Now the question should really be whether the swing arm movement is necessary to shoot trad. bows well. Don't we already know the answer to this?
More and more trad. bowhunters are leaving the swing arm method for reasons that go far beyond the issue of spooking game with unnecessary movement. But that is another topic...Good shooting to all.
"Let's just admit it, we are fools for trying to be proficient at something that takes so much effort." Well many people want trad. archery to be hard. You can call my methods "goofy" but you don't know anything about them really. What's goofy to me is swinging your bow arm up from the hip and squatting down to shoot as the high priests teach. But, there is room for all...Good shooting.
