So I shoot my bow 'instinctive', that is, I more or less just focus on a spot, with the tip of my arrow in the periphery of my vision. Basically, I learned to aim by reading Fred Bear's Archer's Bible when I was 14. For the most part, I am not aware of the tip of my arrow as I'm aiming, I'm just focusing on the center of the target - or, so I thought....

In October our club had a Halloween shoot....it was at night, and the targets were illuminated. So, I could see the target clearly, but I could not see my bow or arrow! Result? Terrible shooting... without my arrow as a reference point, I often could not hit the target butt, let alone the target. I'm sure the darkness and the inability to see the surrounding area affected my depth perception too (almost all of my arrows were very low). Ended up losing 3 arrows that night....

So the lesson I learned is, my brain mainly focuses on the spot I want to hit, but I'm also using input from my bow, arrow point, AND the surrounding terrain....whether I'm consciously aware of it or not... interesting....

Good post, was true with me back when I shot that way and lighter colored arrows helped me too. The arrow helps you point.

The brain naturally uses what's available in the sight picture, even if you're not always aware of it. Could just be the shooting situation was so unfamiliar it affected your confidence and Form.

A good example is when training with people they like to put the face, dot etc in the middle of the boss, when I move the face or dot away from center of the boss and ask them to shoot, sometimes all kinds of crazy things happen with their groups. Part of being a good shot is about pushing past your comfort zone to make accurate shots in any scenario.

Point well taken. In my mind, my arrow plays no part in my aim. I perceive myself as looking only at the spot I want to hit. That may or not be true. I need to try a night shoot with only an illuminated target and me being in the dark unable to see my bow or arrow. Very interesting indeed.

No, you don't shoot instinctive.

Someone like Koby Briant, who is really good at hitting baskets from just about anywhere - I'm sure he just focuses on whatever he focuses on and puts the ball where he wants. Muscle memory gained from lots and lots of practice, plus what is no doubt some innate talent that most people do not have. Instinctive? I'll let the hand-wringers debate that one....it's just semantics to me. Call it the "Unconscious muscle-memory spot-focus" method perhaps.... may be a better description but a but wordy....

It would be interesting though, to see if Koby could hit those baskets if all he could see is the basket but could not see the ball, his hands/arms, or the surrounding area. Would he still be able to make those shots? Or would he miss the backboard? Would be an interesting experiment....

You are not an instinctive shooter. Very few people actually can do it, takes immense last second concentration.

It seems to me the "instinctive shooting" is a term used to cover a variety of different subconcious aiming methods, as opposed to conscious aiming methods, like gap shooting or using sights. None are actually instinctive, because they're all learned, but that doesn't really matter. Point is, some will call what you do instinctive, others will not. Does it really matter? If you want to learn to shoot in total darkness, you can do it just by practice -- I did, but I'm not sure what I gained by doing that.

I've been shooting for a few months. I was wondering how much my subconscious was using the arrow tip even though I'm not "looking" at it. The target is in focus, the arrow isn't.

So when practicing 300 rounds, I've mixed in some arrows that are an inch shorter. I have three at normal length and two shorts. When shooting, I just grab the next arrow and shoot, without looking to see if it was the normal or short arrow.

I couldn't tell the difference. I certainly use the blurry arrow shaft to tell if I'm left or right and I assume I'm using the slope of the shaft to visualize the shot.

I was shooting in the back yard this evening after sunset. The target was lit with a flashlight but as it got darker and I couldn't see the arrow to even get the slope info, my shots were several inches high and low. Practice was over.....

I still wouldn't call it instinctive as I need that left right and arrow slope sight picture. Since I'm not using the tip to gap, I wouldn't call it gapping either.......I guess I'm just shooting. ;-)

Jim

Many who thought they did not reference the arrow have been enlightened when the lights went out.

Our brains have a marvelous capacity for registering what we see, directly and in our peripheral and utlizing that information--- if we don't interfere.

I believe I'm better at being a "use the tip of the arrow hard aimer kind of guy" because it is not in my nature to let go of that control. We are all wired differently.

The dark thing is dumb. You have to have depth perception just like a ball thrower. Instinctive shooters do shoot at a variety of distances, generally short distances.

I have been shooting blind bale quite a bit lately - eyes closed at about 5 yards. I continually am amazed at around 2 inch groups with 6 arrows, always at the same general area of the bale.

That is why I'm not a fan of black arrows. I mentioned that on another forum and it didn't go over well. Apparently admitting I use the arrow a little bit somewhere in my aiming makes me a lesser archer. I use mostly for left and right. What I was referring to at the time was that I had switched to the Grizzlystick TDT shafts after I had problems twice with Easton shafts breaking on deer hits. These Grizzlystiks are excellent shafts, super tough, straight, tapered, thin, and hit consistently well with broad heads. The only down side is that being thin and black can make them invisible in the last moments of legal shooting light. Taking it a step farther...just putting some white on the point and of the shaft doesn't help as much as you would think. I'm actually using the front 1/3 of the shaft to aim. I really don't see the end of the shaft that much. The grizzly sticks are pretty glossy so they are better to aim with than flat black but not as easy to see as woodgrain would be. Tedd

I never did understand the 'dark' theory, unless you are an owl.

Well, I've seen the pitch dark shooting scenario demonstrated, and I have participated it it quite a number of times.

Trust me when I say - It can be done, and done quite easily "IF" you know how.

Rick

Kobe Bryant hits less than 50% of the shots he takes from the field.

For newbies I tell them about secondary aiming after I trick them into it by having the red rubber ball kind of laying at a reference point. This is for split finger Hill style shooting. When they start to get it, I assure them that things will get automatic and more instinctive over time. I think it helps them to have a starting point as to just what things look like, rather than have them have doubts and go fishing for accuracy. Like I said, in most cases the auto pilot takes over and it is more instinctive at 20 yards and under. Even on long shots for me, i would say the secondary gets me in the ball park and the instinctive autopilot refines the shot.

Being a cornfed boy I can instinctively hit my mouth dead center every time with a spoon.My accuracy goes up when I'm hungry or ice cream is involved.>>>>>>-------------->

I call it proper sight picture.

Well Sam, I do not claim to be an expert ice cream eater. Putting a little hair around it doesn't help much, I get as much ice cream in my beard as I do my mouth. My dog isn't much better with my ice cream cones. The little hog thinks she has to bite it on her side of the cone.

The dark theory has been around since I started shooting over 50 years ago. It always has been a stupid theory but somehow those who do not have the mental ability to shoot "instinctively" always seem to bring it up. When one actually thinks about it, it is really a dumb thought.." let's take away the ability to have depth perception and that will prove you are using a sight, and at all distances". What great science.

Like many have stated over the years.." Instinctive shooting takes a unique mental calmness at the very center. Only a few archers can do it well."

When I first started, guys I knew would paint the front inch of their arrows white for low-light shooting. They knew the deer would be moving at dusk - 'the witching hour' - and planned accordingly.

Quite a few years back I was having this discussion with the young lad working in the archery shop. He was interested in how I shot with no sights. We went in the back where the archery range was and he turned out all the lights but the ones above the targets. There was a paper target with a flying pheasant at 20 yards.I told him I was shooting at it and pulled back and drilled it.

That young lad won a bunch of state and national championships and a couple years later won a Gold medal in the Olympics, his name was Rod White. He told me that was one of the best shots he's ever seen.lol

I'm not really understanding the debate on "instinctive" shooting. I think it's safe to say we are all archers here be it target, hunting or both. If your arrow goes where you want it on a consistent basis and your form is good what does it matter what your brain uses to get it there? I've never really worried if I was "instinctive". I shoot a recurve, no sights, gap past 30 yards. People should figure out what works for them and do it and not worry about what others might label them. Just my humble opinion. If I'm missing something, maybe someone here could enlighten me.

When I shoot, if my eye's pick up the arrow point, I may as well re-draw. Shooting in the dark for me is not much different than shooting in the light is what I found as long as I can see the spot I want to hit. But, if I pick up that arrow point, I'm done.

Most of my shooting is done at night. I have a light at my target. I really don't notice much difference from shooting in the daytime. I use all different aiming styles too

For depth perception to work and for eye dominance to be relevant, there has to be somehow more than one single point involved.

Chazz

I love the debate on what is instinctive and what is not.... might as well argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin..... (the answer is 11 by the way...).

How good are you at hitting that point when is light outside?

How good are you at approximating the distance to the target in the dark?

How confident are you when you take each shot?

Without an answer to these 3 questions "instinctive" aiming is nothing but "random" aiming.

It's easy. Look at what you want to hit and then shoot.

Don't reference the arrow. It's a very simple concept and I don't understand why people have such trouble accepting it.

People like to rip on Asbell but he writes about it better than anyone.

I never hear anyone say it like it really is- at least for me. Example:I bet most guys shoot somewhere around 18-26yds 90% of the time. When I walk on to a range (marked) or pick a target roving (unmarked) reasonably close to these distances, I too feel like I have simply raised the bow, concentrated on a spot, and released. It doesn't seem as though I am seeing the arrow tip. Like ingrained, repetitive, rote memory /movement right? So, now I decide to do something out of my wheelhouse. Shoot some 555yard shots, marked or otherwise. Guess what. Bow arm comes up, and the first thing I am aware of is the arrow tip. It looks like a cannon barrel with the far off target secondary, somewhat out of focus. I am consciously ranging and establishing necessary perceived elevation. It may be fleeting but it is apparent. The arrow tip means everything at this point. Now, I focus on a spot on the far off target. Only after using the arrowpoint as a distinct reference in relation to the target. And, I guarantee you this happens on every shot regardless of distance, it just isn't perceived cuz in our comfort zone we have loosed thousands and thousands of arrows.

Hahaaa. fifty-five yard shots. I guess what I am saying, is for me if I broke it down, it would be more like a two phase process. 1. Establish range elevation using arrow point height relative to target. Arrowpoint is the focus. 2. Concentrate on the target, pick a hair, etc. Now I don't seem to be aware of the arrow any longer. All eyes on the prize.

Cobra, I'd agree with you...if you were right.

Using the method I described, which is how I shoot (unconscious muscle-memory spot-focus), I shoot Field Archery all summer - standard Field and Hunter courses, 14 targets, farthest shot is 80 yards. Best score I ever got for a Hunter round (14 targets, 4 arrows each) was in the upper 190s, but my typical scores would be in the 150s to 170s depending on the day. Ok shooting I think, but my friends that use more refined aiming methods (gap shooting mostly) can usually break 200 and a bad day is in the 170s to 180s. At 80 yards, I do use the tip of the arrow to aim like it is a sight - why? Because at that distance the tip of the arrow is above the target and I can't focus on what I can't see..... I've been shooting a recurve since 1980 (age 14) and I acknowledge that there a plenty of people that are simply better shots than I am and can do things that I cannot.... When I score all four arrows at 80, 70, 60, and 50, that's cause for celebration, because I don't do that very often......but, I rarely miss the entire target butt at 80 yards these days....

Ok, question for those that linked depth perception to instinctive shooting. If you don't have depth perception, can you be an accurate, consistent instinctive shooter?

I ask this because i have very little vision in my r eye and shoot left handed because of that. I never could shoot a basketball or see a 3d movie or puzzle out the hidden deal in op art. I have no way of knowing how folks with depth perception visually perceive the shot. I have adapted by using the tip of the arrow as an aiming point, but sometimes try to shoot instinctively ( after many years of trying instinctive i had only gotten so good and needed to begin using hard aiming to improve). Interested in your thoughts.

I shoot with my left eye closed...tracking problems when looking out the corners of my eyes. I shoot “instinctively” (ie. no conscious aiming)

For those “Instinctives” who think their brain isn’t referencing the arrow when you’re shooting, try taping the bottom half of your glasses so the arrow isn’t in your view at full draw.

IMO a good a shooter who's using "instinctive aiming" needs one thing: time (to accumulate experience). I was reading lately a research about how our brain is very good at picking up patterns - visual / auditory, thinking, movement.

Based on this, when I "feed" the brain with info from all three "sources" during an activity in a consistent and repeatable manner my brain will pick the pattern and exploit it.

PS An instinctive shooter needs a very repeatable shooting sequence ( I don't care how it looks like) to be capable to start collecting the benefits of his work. Without this everything is worthless IMO.

The term "instinctive" is an unfortunate word but it's hard to find a better one. The problem is it leads some to think aiming is not involved in instinctive shooting. OK, if you want to think that, go ahead. But it's wrong. Does a baseball pitcher aim, when only looking at the batter? If not, I pity the pitcher. And the batter.

I read that Howard Hill was once asked if he sees the arrow point while shooting. He replied, "Of course I do! How else could I hit where I'm aiming?"

And to answer to you Therifleman, I don't think is necessary to have a very good vision to be a very good instinctive shooter.

You could just shoot at noise? lol >>>>>-------->

If you trained for that, yes. "Instinctive" shooting for me is not about using or not the tip of the arrow, but about placing through form the arrow on the right path toward the target. And this requires time. I would really like to know how many years took to Rick Welch to get at that level. He was not spring chicken when he started to won.

I guess that's why Howard Hill didn't shoot at night!

If you trained for that, yes. "Instinctive" shooting for me is not about using or not the tip of the arrow, but about placing through form the arrow on the right path toward the target. And this requires time. I would really like to know how many years took to Rick Welch to get at that level. He was not spring chicken when he started to win.

I do have issues at say 40 yard shots. It is then that the point of the arrow really comes into view. I have to not see it to hit the mark. It makes me loose focus on the spot I want to hit.

Scotty shooting 3-pointers, Jethro shooting stumps, or Ozzie throwing the ball to 1st while falling away, the human mind is an amazing thing. We don't have to consciously focus on things for our eye to see them and add them into the amazing calculation that it sends to our muscles.

It always baffles me when folks fail to give credit to how amazing our minds are. You don't have to consciously look at the arrow point for the eye to see it. Your eye is taking in all kind of data and sending it to the brain when you shoot.

Above, muscle memory is argues as a, if not the, key for good "instinctive shooting." I argue that muscle memory helps, but is not as much a factor as the eye seeing and taking in the surroundings.

Is muscle memory part of intuition or instincts? Here is the definition of intuition: the subliminal processing of information that is too complex for rational thought. Perhaps, that explains why some do not think they see the arrow point. It's too complex for rational thought.

Do you shoot intuitively or instinctively? Oh, never mind.

It is a matter of acknowledgement. Your eyes see what your eyes see, you have no control over that. How much one uses consciously or unconsciously, is where the differences come in. NEVER STARE AT THE POINT OF THE ARROW, it is like staring directly at the sun for your hunting accuracy. How does one know what their point on distance is if they do not acknowledge the arrow? if you see two old Dutch farmers 'outstanding in their field'. if one farmer points at something, you can at a glance without even thinking about, have a pretty good idea what is pointing at. You are not looking down his arm and finger, you can plainly see where it is pointing. Just like when you are teaching someone to shoot, they pull up the bow and you can tell instantly that they are going to hit the garage. It may have a a lot of 'feel' in it after a while, but it starts out with the eyes.

Based on his own words, yes.

Too early in the day for popcorn.

Oh CRAP! There's that guy that always brings up Howard Hill in the middle of an "instinctive" shooting debate.

"Do you shoot intuitively or instinctively? Oh, never mind."

If you get the itch to shoot the bow every time you see a deer, it is instinctive shooting.

If you get the itch to kill the deer with a bow and arrow every time you see a deer it is intuitive shooting.

It's hand-eye coordination. Take out half of the equation and what do you have? Crap.

Didnt someone at one time on this here leatherwall talk about shooting the flame off of a candle in a dark space/room? Or did I read it somewhere else? Or am I Crazy? I'd say that's instinctive Nybubba

"Itch" lol, Ishi?

I took three shots at a candle in a black room once. You can see the frame of your bow and your arrow in candle light, It does help to focus, but the bow and arrow are still visible. We tried it with a lighted sight pin in a match box with just a tiny pin hole in it. The very good shot that said he could hit it, didn't even come close. When just a little bit light came into the building he clipped the little match box. Some people if they think about the arrow will look at the arrow, that is a no-no. The brain does a lot of things without direct thought, it is not magic, the brain uses our God given senses whether we want to or not. If you want to call that instinctive, it is as good a term as any.

The funny part is this: how much someone is staying at full draw says nothing about his aiming method.

Based on his own explanation he is not, and I believe him. And btw, an instinctive shooter “aims” as well.

I shoot just like you but the dark doesn't bother me.,

Yes, he just doesn’t think about it. If I ask you how you hit the target you will say: “I don’t think. I just look, draw and shoot”. And is not what I asked. From “shooting at something” to “hit something you shoot at” is a long learning process that is as instinctive as the hair is part of the frog’s description.

PS Shooting in the dark at lights and missing is not the proof that without seing the arrow you can’t shoot. It’s the proof that you didn’t trained to hit lights in the dark when perception is different in a subtle way.

Would have to have the instinctive mind meld to link with Welch and find out.

I went out to check my trail cam set up by my target in my back yard [trying to find the culprit of trash can invasions] and thought I'd shoot my recurve in the dark. I was more centered twords the bulls eye than normal. There was enough outside artificial light to barely see my point of aim.

His system is simple: through consecutive good hits on the target you program your bow hand for different distances and you hold at full draw two seconds because this is the time he found out is necessary for the body to stabilize the bow hand under the heavy weight bow.

Correction.... barely enough light to see my target.

Just remember...lights or no lights, most do not have the mental ability (calmness and concentration) to shoot well "instinctively"... even at normal short yardage hunting distances. Therefore, using a sighting reference is the best way to go for those archers. The sight aid concept should be supported, it is best for most hunters.

"Just remember...lights or no lights, most do not have the mental ability (calmness and concentration) to shoot well "instinctively"... even at normal short yardage hunting distances."

This is simplified to the bones, close to call some mentally challenged because they don't have "mental abilities". Mental ability has nothing to do with it. Knowledge on how to train to get it done is another thing. There are no "instinctive aiming coaches" and the few very good instinctive aimers found their own training method through trial and error during long years of experimenting.

Like I stated, most cannot shoot instinctively. And, apparently comprehend a few others have the ability.

this is an interesting parallel to archery. my father was nc state skeet champion for several years & he considered his shooting style instinctive. he did not stand rigid & move mechanically. he stood relaxed gun at side & used a twisting rate of swing method to establish lead you always pulled the trigger as the barrel passed the bird & the amount of lead was-is not thought about the instinctive rate of swing establishing the nessary lead to bust the bird. at bullrun shooting center in Manassas va when I was 19 years old out of 60 shooters I had the third highest average useing this method.unfortunately I gave it up because of the expense to compete at that level I just couldn't afford to shoot 2-3 rounds 2-3 times a week. point is my father & myself shot skeet at a competitive level without ever thinking about lead. this could be compared to conchesly vs subconsciously archery shooting

They can, but not at a competitive level. The extra mile aka theorizing and creating a system comes in two circumstances: when your life depends on the way you shoot - war arts - or when you want to win a competition. It would be interesting to know the thinking of the guy who invented stringwalking when his pairs were mostly gaping or using point on.

No one shoots a bow instinctively. Instinct is inborn. Breathing is instinctive, crying is instinctive. Walking is not, shooting is not, these things must be learned. Just like aiming, just like gapping, just like string walking, just like all the rest of it.

twostrings...i agree with that, but once someone has learned or is taught, does ot not then become instinctive with time and practice?

another scenario is your in a dove field & a bird comes out of know where & you just react without thought & usually kill that bird heck sometimes the shotgun may not even touch your shoulder it just looked right & bam ...now 5 minutes later you watch a bird come all the way across the field slowly raise the gun aim think & miss 50% of the time...function without thought useing memorized mechanics. vs conchesly aiming & thinking

They don't become "instinctive" they are mostly conditioned response/behavior, falling on the "reflex" side. You know how to do it, you will do the way you were taught but you need practice to maintain it.

Breathing is not instinctive, breathing, heartbeat, digestion and your endocrine system are all functions of the autonomic nervous system. Development of any skill through well planned repetitive and successful training does not make task peformance instinctive either, it becomes ingrained, a learned behavior. Humans posses few if any innate behaviors which were replaced by the ability to learn, (for most but not all evidently) and reason (there again) as well as self awareness. What you all argue incessantly over is in fact like it or not a learned skill, nobody here is using "The Force", and the Universe does not revolve around the Earth, which I hear is not flat. Imagine that...And if you can, that is why you gave up instinctual behavior.

He is not a declared Coach from what I know. He is sharing his experience with the instinctive archers who want to improve. I did not heard about a school of him where the beginner is learning instinctive archery.

Draven... Reflex a term used to describe instinctive in the Websters dictionary.

Luckily science is above dictionary. If 500 years ago there were dictionaries, they would have stated: Earth - the center of the universe.

You didn't even know he is an instinctive shooter. Enjoy your 500 topic from now on.

Draven... Dictionaries or otherwise known as word books describe words with meanings, not philosophies or opinions. Respectfully

You see a deer: your learnt behavior (learned reflex) will help you draw the bow without taking your eyes from the deer. Your instinct will tell you to not move. A subtle difference.

You see a deer: your learnt behavior (learnt reflex) will help you draw the bow without taking your eyes from the deer. Your instinct will tell you to not move. A subtle difference.

"We've just about been convinced you can't compete as an instinctive shooter. All the hard aiming gurus on here say so.

I'd love to hear what they say regarding Rick Welch."

Don't believe what others are saying. Rick Welch did this by creating a system and using it. PS I blame Papa Bear for this "instinctive shooters can't compete" way before the new wave of target shooters decided to use the same words.

He said how he is "aiming". His system is based on the relation between bow hand elevation and the distance to the target developed through practice. His "aiming" stopped when the bow hand stopped. He is not changing that elevation once he is at full draw - something done by the archers that are using a more conscious aiming system. The arrow, bow hand, trees, target, sun shadows etc are in his cone of vision but he is looking just to the point he wants to hit. If someone doesn't believe him, please use a brain machine and check if is true or not.

[[[ "If someone doesn't believe him, please use a brain machine and check if is true or not." ]]]

And there we have it.

Some people are honest about how they shoot, and some are not.

We can draw all the conclusions we base on observation we want to, BUT there's ZERO way of knowing for sure either way without hard, irrefutable physical evidence.

Why do we care?

Rick

"Why do we care?"

Most of the time to justify why are we different. And sometime just to make a 500 replies topic.

i cannot hunt today. I am going to blow leaves out of my gutters. should I aim the leaf blower using an 'imaginary aiming point' instinctive, gap or the 'the best' system. It had sights on it, but they got snagged and broke off.

It's cause and effect, when you see leaves moving it's because you are in the right place regardless of how you got there.

Impossible to talk about anything shooting methods here on the wall unless you first do a search on the topic and you will find about 100 or so topics on each and every one.

One member said he was tired of shooting method threads and the next thing I see is one he started! Go figure.

Everyone should know about all of them by now.

I very much enjoy shooting method topics as long as they are civil.

Some folks have a knack for describing/explaining how they shoot, and some don't.

Some shooting methods are easily explained, and some aren't.

I do not "discredit" the instinctive method. If you do it I have only one problem with it.

That problem is - The more someone tries to explain it, the less instinctive it sounds to me.

Rick

The way I understand instinctive that you do not use any references, just look at what you want to hit and shoot.

Some years ago I watched a program where Jim Dougherty was interviewing Fred Bear. They ended the program by shooting at a deer 3D target at about 15 yards. Jim shot first & hit the target well. Then Fred shot. Missed the target. Right over the back. He took another shot & hit it. Just saying.......

I will type it again. The human eye, the individual left eye or right eye, does not have, never did never will, have a distance focal control. The focal length is so short that anything beyond just a very short distance is in focus for the normal eye. We do not have telescopic or microscopic vision. That does not mean that some don't have vision problems. Really enjoy it when people claim that one needs to hold a bow back for half a moon phase to be able to hit anything and claim that they are purely instinctive and only see the target. It must just take that long for the instincts to kick in. Our eyes may be limited, but they are very fast, it does not take more than an millisecond for our eyes to tell our brain and for our brain to decide if we are on target or not. One can shoot very fast integrate an aim into the draw sequence and still be able to decide if we are on target or not. Of course, many believe that we should never aim until well after anchor is established, they must also think that humans are incapable of doing anything more than one step at a time. Directions for walking and chewing gum at the same from many archery experts would go something like this. 1. Bite down on gum. 2. Begin lifting foot by tightening the hip flexor muscle for the chosen leg. 3. Add more flexor muscle force and apply just enough thigh support to allow the knee to bend. Do not look at the foot. 4. Proper thigh tension will keep your foot on target. 5. Release tooth pressure on gum by relaxing the jaw muscle. etc.

Rick, the single thing "instinctive" is this:

who shots instinctive is not thinking about what he does but is behaving almost as though it were controlled by some "outside" force.

How he gets the arrow where he wants using this "outside" force is a very complex and long term learning process. Trying to write down the learning process from "not knowing what you are doing" to "not thinking about what you are doing" will debunk this mythical "outside" force.

Dean & Draven, good posts.

I know one thing. I'm not going to take the sights or scopes off my rifles & throw them away!

Who shoots not who shots.

I recently bought a henry 45-70. My son bought a Marlin 45-70. They told him that it needs a shot gun scope because of the recoil. Recoil? It is like catching a cannon ball with your shoulder. One gun guy shot that scoped 45-70 Marlin, he was a 'gun guy' his term, he knew everything. One shot, Cody said, "Your gonna want to put some ice on that." Before our very eyes, the 'gun guy' grew a Pinokkio nose out from the middle of his eye brows. It looked like half a thumb sticking out of his head. He left, then we relighted the scope, he knocked it off about a foot at on hundred yards with his face. I am not putting a scope on mine. My game warden friend lifted one off of a guy that shot a deer out of pickup window with a 45-70 with a scope. Then escorted him to the hospital for a bad case of scope eye, he needed stitches.

“Long term” for me implies being capable to hit targets from 5 to 80 yards more than randomly. YMMV.

For those who think there is something magical about "instinctive" shooting, do a little research on a guy named Lucky McDaniel. He was probably the BEST instinctive shooter and teachers that ever lived. He pretty much proved there is nothing magical, and all it takes is the proper training method. And the method he used for teaching works just as effectively for shooting a bow as it does for shooting a gun.

Maybe look him up.

Instinctive is not thinking, just looking.

I'm with you Draven about the shot experience . I'm not affected during practice , stumping , shooting 3rd whatever . But when shooting most animal's I go blank , outside the box for a split second . Pretty weird but natural as can be. I look at it like a great white coming up from the bottom dialed in on a seal, his eyes roll back white film over his eye. He's gonna get bit whether head or tail or right in the middle . Instinctive natural shooters are like white quail, rare (one in 12,000) luckily the quail blends well with his brood. I shoot simular to the Hill style and practice from the way vipers book explains for form/ follow thru.

We all know instinctive is the improper term. Still...no reference qsssighting involved.

Do you mean "BAH"? LOL

If you read the full definition of instinctive you'll see that one of the definitions given is, instinctive is an act that is done below the concious level or subconsciously. Theres enough definitions to fit anyone's agenda so why argue. Personally my shooting style is dimmeldorf, lol.

If an "instinctive shooter" doesn't see their hand when it is in front of him, I say turn in your drivers license, because you can't see the yellow line or on-coming traffic or the kid on a bicycle riding the shoulder.

Can someone shoot without concentrating on anything but the target. Sure. It's learned behavior that your subconscious picks up through lots & lots of practice.

I drive instinctive, I think of the town that I want to get to and car just goes there, but my driving form is very good.

man...and to think...winter is just starting. :(

One has to learn to concentrate on a single spot, not a yellow line on a road. I realize most do not have the ability to concentrate that much. Best for most to use a sight or other reference. Leave 'instinctive" shooting to the few of us with the necessary discipline, dedication, and skills. Nothing wrong with sights.

Aaaand again:

For those who think there is something magical about "instinctive" shooting, do a little research on a guy named Lucky McDaniel. He was probably the BEST instinctive shooter and teacher that ever lived. He pretty much proved there is nothing magical, and all it takes is the proper training method. And the method he used for teaching works just as effectively for shooting a bow as it does for shooting a gun.

Maybe look him up.

fdp...I looked up Lucky McDaniel and there's a book you can buy through amazon where Lucky explains in detail his...

"Instinctive Shooting System of Muscle Coordination with Hand/Eye Control"

and the title says it all for me as it's pretty much what all we instinctors have been saying right along.

For any of us here to attempt to confirm, deny or define how the minds of others process sensory information is a fools errand but I do have a couple anaologies that may help so first?...

Let's take a look at "Golf"

The golfer is hundreds of yards away from the hole and with each swing of the several strokes it takes to sink the ball?...the target the golfer is looking at and fixated on isn't the hole...it's the ball...which their head and eyes are supposed to remain fixated on where the only means of directing left/right trajectory is via a predetermined and prefixed body angle/position (aka: "Body/Target Alignment") and now?...(thanks to gobs of driving range practice)...the golfer intuitively swings and strikes the ball with a smooth, fluid motion and finishes off wih a chip shot from beyond the apron instinctively using "just enough swing" to get the ball to and into the coffee cup sized hole 20-30yds away...he didn't gap anything....the position was always in motion and never "Held" while anything "Floated"...because the golfer knew that the game was not one of precision yet precision was the end result of well modulated power and control and all discipline was well spent on the chipping, putting and driving ranges buying all that skill the golfer just exercised.

Then again?...some folks can attend an entire concert yet walk out barely being able to hum the tune of the lead violinist while others?...have the entire symphony still playing in their head.

I made up an acronym for ^^THIS^^ years ago that I called...

"Neil M."

Not everybody is like

Me. ;)

Jinkster, you are missing something very important from what you said. This eye and hand coordination is 0 without the proper action of the muscles and skeleton that are actually caring out the intention. We are not born knowing how to shoot. It is something that has to be learnt through gesture. And gesture is educated and exercised. I use gesture to not use a very feather-ruffling-word like "form". The real problem a lot have with this "instinctive" shooting is this wrong image created by some: your form is result of this "concentration on the spot". If you want to know if you have it in you start shooting using instinctive aiming at 30 yards, not at 5 yards. THIS will force you to refine your "gesture" in same time with your mental.

“Best for most to use a sight or other reference. Leave 'instinctive" shooting to the few of us with the necessary discipline, dedication, and skills. Nothing wrong with sights.”

The Few, the Proud....

Gimme a freakin’ BREAK!

Good thing I always wear boots, ‘cuz the BS in here is gettin’ MIGHTY DEEP.

If you want to learn how to shoot on auto-pilot, read Guitar Zero and The Talent Code. It’s no different than any other motor skill: if you repeat a motion often enough, the neuromuscular circuit that controls it becomes a permanent feature of your anatomy. If you repeat it consciously and precisely, the circuit grows out faster, stronger and more precise than if you just go through the motions over and over.

If you want to learn (quickly) how to shoot without a conscious process, GET CONSCIENTIOUS about your process. Put a peep on your string and practice drawing & anchoring until you can draw and anchor with your eyes closed and have the perp end up right in front of your eyeball. Check the positioning of your bowhand by lining up your entire arrow with your target and let yourself settle into that exact position until you can aim, close your eyes, wait a moment and still hit your mark with your eyes closed.

I’m here to tell ya, Breth’ren, the more I practice aiming carefully, the less I seem to need to do it.

And as for shooting in the dark...

Just so you know... Your peripheral vision, being mostly/all black & white, is much more light-sensitive than your color vision, so in poor light you see BETTER where you are NOT looking than where you think you ARE looking. And I say “think” you are looking, because, truth be told, our sharpest vision is all in color, so in low light, you’re actually BLIND “right where you’re looking”.

And the up-shot of THAT is that in low light, you can see your arrow MUCH better than you can see whatever “spot” you may think you’re “burning a hole” through...

Just sayin’....

Jinks, my point is that "instinctive" shooting isn't magical like some folks try to make it sound. It's just another method of doing the same thing. I used to get all caught up in the "instinctive" debates as well. Then I realized that Jim Ploen had the best definition of "instinctive". He says if you aren't using a sight, you're shooting instinctively.

People can't "unsee" something that is out in front of their face. And the fact is that trying to "ubsee" something makes the process much more difficult. Now, do they reference what they see? Well that's a different thing and only the individual can tell for sure.

And FWIW...

40 minutes after sunset on a cloudy evening with a good number of leaves still up. Could just make out the shot-out part of the target, although not clearly.

This group is under an inch wide. One flyer took it out to probably 5/8”, C2C.

From THIRTY yards.

I think all of these stubborn 'don't see the arrow instinctive shooters' are string crawlers with tape on bow sights when no one is looking. No one can answer what I have seen with beginners numerous times. They can learn to execute Hill form in slow motion with with a light bow very quickly if they are trying hard, but still beat the crap out of my garage, missing my 4' by 5' targets. I give them a minor secondary aiming aid, the arrows find the the target, then I kick the red ball away and they still hit the target without looking at the arrow. They remember the degree of displacement. We eventually back up to 25 yards and the first arrow goes low, the second arrow goes high, the third starts things getting closer. A few day later it is no longer any kind of an issue. i have seen self taught guys that came from the compound ranks determined to call themselves instinctive that can barely hit my target at 20 yards after months of trying. Often their form is good enough, but they shoot all over the place. Out comes the red ball and in a few shots things come together. Why not use an aiming system when starting out to develop the hand/eye coordination with a bit of structured experience? it gets to a stage of automatic response soon enough anyway. For those that are really uncoordinated I have taped on a bracket sight for them and simply tell them the target is going be somewhere in the bracket, that works about the same. When they start hitting, I take off the bracket sight, and they continue to hit. It is just a piece of plastic covered copper wire bent in an oval loop with the two end tangs bent for conveniently tapping it to a bow. Lots of folks just need a starting point.

If shooting "instinctive" is the Holy Grail, why did the GREAT Howard Hill shoot gap?

"you start shooting using instinctive aiming at 30 yards, not at 5 yards. THIS will force you to refine your "gesture" in same time with your mental." Yep......

Elderly are you a kneeler? lol

Shooting instinctive is not the Holy Grail, and is not what most are capable of. It is more the exception and only a few dedicated individuals do it well..

“Sure , everyone can play in the NHL, NFL or NBA if they just practice enough.”

If we’re talking about bow hunting, we’re talking about hitting a pumpkin at about 50 feet. Not big-league professional performance. More like making the freshman team. Second string.

“Sure , everyone can play in the NHL, NFL or NBA if they just practice enough.”

If we’re talking about bow hunting, we’re talking about hitting a pumpkin at about 50 feet. Not big-league professional performance. More like making the freshman team. Second string.

Lots of people try very hard to play in the NHL,NFL or NBA, and never make it. That is what semi pro teams are for. Not everyone can do it.

What is the symbolism of the professional athletic team organizations' ? None of those sports have anything to do with archery or shooting sports...at all.

Basically, we have some folks professing to have some Innate Gift, the likes of which we peons can only dream, and it’s a Crock.

Just because I/you/we don’t understand something doesn’t make it Magic. And just because you don’t remember learning a skill doesn’t mean you were born with it.

We all possess varying gifts when it comes to Athleticism, but there’s no reason at all that an average person can’t learn to group onto a pie plate at 50 feet without having to check their aim, and it needn’t take years upon years of diligence to get there. You certainly CAN waste many years’ worth of time, effort and frustration if you insist upon doing it the hard way, but Stupid is as Stupid does, I guess.

I suppose there are some who would try to learn to shoot a rifle with wobbly iron sights, but most of us would have that fixed before we wasted our time.

I'm guessing that Howard Hill killed more game then all of us put together. He shot & taught GAP.

"Hunting The Hard Way" by Howard Hill. Chapter 5

"Most folks don't have freshman second team capabilities either. No matter how much they practice."

That's because they're practicing WRONG. Two wrongs don't make right, and 2,000 wrongs just makes you tired & ornery.

On those days that I'm not feeling particularly magical or gifted?...I string walk...using a small 4-6" gap at the target...lollypopping...

but even then finish the shot off instinctively! LOL! ;)

Not that I think he’s right, but Gladwell claims you need 10000 hours to master any skill. Might not be 10000 hours but learning shoot “instinctively” well does take considerable time and commitment. I’ve been shooting trad for 3-4 years now and I sure don’t cosider myself world class...but I can group on a pie plate out to 30 yds. :) Was able to do that in a few weeks with a compund and all the gizmos.

John Schulz stated that Howard Hill did not get into how to aim with him and his brother. Secondary aiming was not part of the lessons. However, John states in his video about aiming that anchoring at the corner of the mouth cuts the angle of the arrow tip to the target and that tilting the head and canting the bow cuts that angle even more. When talking about boring a hole through it, 'if you use the knuckle point of the arrow, whatever you would use the single most important thing is to bore a hole through it, try to black out everything else, look right at that spot and you will hit it most of the time'. From all of those fragments, I would say that John acknowledged seeing things in his visual field, but believes that hard focused visual control is the main ingredient to taking a hunting shot. When I talked on the phone to John about the Legend that he had just sent me, one of the first things that came up when saying that it was the fastest Hill style bow that I had ever shot, "do you know what your point on distance is?" You need to acknowledge your arrow to know what your point on distance is.

Rntlee -

Try Guitar Zero and The Talent Code. They'll set you straight.

It is cold here so last night we were playing around with stuff. I put two cresent tabs of Glow-on paint on the my rear rifle sight and then covered the front bead with Glow-on Pink. I have difficulties seeing the rear sight and shooting into a sunset makes it hard to make out the brass bead when pointing at a brown abject. The little flat tooth pick that I used, glowed in the dark. So we covered the two basement windows hung my pillow target up and tried to see what we could co. Not so good. Then I turned on the lights, put a tiny glob on top of my arrow and dried it with a blow drier. Turned off the lights, all I could see was the glowing tip of the tooth pick and that glowing little dot on my arrow. One half inch low, second shot clipped it and it jumped off of the target broken just at the edge of the glowy tip. We put the glowy tooth pick tip back on the target. The glowy bit came off my arrow so I tried the shot with out it and missed by six inches. I must most definitely use my arrow to aim.

I shoot instintive, It only took a couple hundred thousand shots aiming to get there.

I learned from Paul Brunner VHS and will always hold him in regard because he was the only one I had to learn from.

I liked his style and killed a nice buck the same year I watched his tape and also was successful on a Cow Elk.

I killed grouse and shot that way until I learned three under and aiming.

You can shoot a great controlled shot the way Paul taught on his tape and also watched October whitetails with Barry Wensel. Barry would hold as long as he needed to and I watched him shoot running deer.

Was some cool days back then. Appreciate Brunner to this day.

You can still get one of Brunners instinctive archery tapes here;Amazon.com: Shooting Instinctively [VHS]: Paul Brunner: Movies & TV https://www.amazon.com/Shooting-Instinctively-VHS-Paul- Brunner/dp/6304874081

Really good stuff from "Too short".

I would shoot like Lars Anderson with my duo shooter bows, but all of that jumping around hurts my back. Even shooting without acknowledging the arrow requires consistencies in how one shoots. For most of us that are not super human, a consistent repeatable draw and anchor is the basic key to consistent accuracy, no matter if we admit to seeing the arrow or not. An instinctive aimer has to visually have very good eye control. An instinctive aimer cannot look at a bird flying over head and shoot a tight group on the ground. However, I demonstrated shooting a softball sized group at about 20 yards this summer by not looking at the target at all. i kept my focus on the right eye of the young fellow that that was standing in front of me and about 1 foot to the left, shooting right handed. He asked if I did that by feel. I assured him that i carefully aimed every arrow. I could see the position of the arrow to the target in my peripheral vision. Yet when I am out stump shooting or shooting fast at small game, it sure feels like instinctive.

I'll have to remember that one dean next chance I shoot with some buds. Different for sure and sounds fun

I have enjoyed people fighting like hell over what is and what is not instinctive, the dividing lines are not as clear as some would like to think.

Yeah for sure. About as clear as mud. Senice that's what it was called when I started ,I'm personally sticking with it . Lol wouldn't think it needs to be worded differently just because . .. I'm afraid were loosing lots of things in America just because someone wants to be recognized as the person who got it changed.

So long as many of the archery organizations require that an index finger touch the arrows nock and my refusal to anchor any higher than hooking the back of my jawbone?...I will continue to practice the art of instinctive shooting which IMNSHO?....is not a method of aiming as much as it is..."A Shooting Style"...and it's a style of shooting which requires that the right hand knows what the left hand is doing while the minds eye aligns them both with the intended target prior to loosing the string.

In all other scenarios?...I will string walk because gapping at 20yds finds my arrows point soundly in the dirt about 15 yds in front of my feet.

That's good definition jinkster . A art as well as a style of shooting . Wonder if that's how the Chinese taught it.there some of the oldest at it with the bow.

So here’s the question....

When I put 4 arrows in a row right down the middle of the target at 30 yards, in very low light, using dull-finished grey carbons (mostly), was I shooting gap or “instinctive”?

GF...only The Shadow knows! LOL!

LOL.... That was just EVIL!

When I found Brunners video back in 1994 there was no one shooting trad stuff in my area that I knew off anyway.

I watched and imitated him as much as I could. I shot split-finger and although eventually, I learned that my shot seemed to be better if I held a second or so, I slowly began seeing the arrow.

I did not begin to have the knowledge I picked up later on but enjoyed shooting more like Brunner than I did Asbell.

I went to the BW shop before they moved into Nixa and looked around and watched Beck shoot.

Soon after that I went to the new Nixa shop and shot some with the guys there trained by Asbell.

There was one guy there that worked for BW who was an ex-Mo Trooper and enjoyed dealing with him.

I ended up with two BW Bows and killed several deer with them.

Brunner mentions he was trained by Shulz in the segment about plucking the release and said Shulz "would hold a broadhead to the back of his hand" to keep him from plucking.

All very interesting and Brunner used to post here some and think he went by the 8th dwarf?

Great quote from Brunner.

"From: 8th Dwarf Date: 25-May-02

The major fallacy with gap shooting, in my mind, is that it takes the shooter's eye...and concentration...away from the spot he/she has picked on the animal. That, to me, is fatal...but not to the animal. Shoot many times. Teach your brain and eye arrow trajectory. Know the size of things in the field (woods). Don't shoot on your lawn or in a bare field. Shoot in the woods and become familiar with the size of everything....stumps, leaves, twigs, shrubs, etc. It teaches your mind ranges without thinking about them.

When I shoot at an animal, I NEVER think of range. I think of the spot I want to hit. My brain figures out the size of the animal in relation to what is around it and then it factors in arrow trajectory and the arrow is released. All this happens in a couple of thousandths of a second, without any conscious thought on my part. That is true instinctive shooting.

You develop this over time with lots of shooting. Once you have it in your brain, it is never lost.

Too Short"

Paul probably did not mechanically gap in his experienced years. 'Teach your brain and eye arrow trajectory.' What do you suppose his eyes saw? I like Byron Fergusson's philosophy, 'Become The Arrow'. It leaves room for conditioned automatic response.

Here is an interesting thing to try. Get someone to video you from a repeatable position and stand right in front of a shoulder high target and blind bale shoot, Eyes closed for the entire process for every shot, shoot a few of them. Then compare yourself from shot to shot. Next: Back away from a shoulder high target, or at least one that you can shoot with fairly flat horizontal form, get at 20 yards back a little more is better. Have some one video your shooting from the same position, shoot a bunch of arrows, eyes open. Then compare everything in your form, head position, after shot reactions, draw length, the whole bit. I don't care how you aim, but the visuals of distance can have an affect on form. It helps to identify those changes.

Paul Brunner is one of the best.

Many "instinctive" shooters are subconsciously using the arrow to help with the aiming process. Nothing wrong with doing so if you shoot well.

Then they are not instinctive shooters, which is fine.

Then they are not instinctive shooters, which is fine.

Missouribreaks, what do you think it will be the element that will characterize the "instinctive" aiming if is not the arrow - position in the sight window and flight path?

How can you be so sure about what is happening in your subconscious to be so categorical with your "They are not instinctive shooters"

“Many ‘instinctive’ shooters are subconsciously using the arrow to help with the aiming process. Nothing wrong with doing so if you shoot well.”

“Then they are not instinctive shooters...”

So you’re saying that some people are fooling themselves by using a subconscious cue, but you know for certain that you are NOT using a subconscious method because.....

Pay no mind to that man behind the curtain.....

Wow I'm not even sending a dog to this fight!!!!!!!

Like its been reported who cares.LOL

You shoot the way you do and don't impose what you think. Simply because who cares the ones who want to argue I guess. LOL

Now however if you use the arrow to point or any other method other than hand to eye then you are using sites and your not using the instinctive method I don't believe.

True nothing wrong with doing it however it's not true instinctive though.LOL

I guess I sent in Ol yeller after all. LOL

I'm pretty new to the Wall but thoroughly enjoy the entertaining debate on "instinctive". I guess if you close your eyes and shoot your bow you could 100% guarantee your brain is not referencing anything in your vision and using it to "aim". Other than that I don't see how it's possible. Our brains pick up things and make adjustments in nano seconds. We might think we are only "burning a hole" in the target but our brains are sub- consciously doing lots of other things real quick like perhaps seeing the tip of the arrow or shaft. In my opinion it's all good as long as the arrow gets where we want it to go.

@Supernaut -

The only reason I care about this debate is that it does a terrible disservice to tell a newcomer that it is desirable/preferable/somehow-morally-superior to LEARN to shoot a bow by pretending to have mastered it already.

Just a word to the wise: It is a HUGE MISTAKE to try to learn a skill from someone who doesn’t actually understand how they learned it in the first place. The only bigger mistake I can think of is trying to learn a skill from someone who believes that he was somehow Born With A Gift and who will accept HIS failure to teach you anything as a natural consequence of your NOT having been so gifted.

If you buy into that crap and find yourself struggling, there are really only two likely outcomes: either you settle for being a lousy shot and end up wounding animals due entirely to ineptitude, or you give it up entirely, in which case you may or may not become a critic of old-school archery. I know this will come as a shock, but some people actually WILL fault their equipment, rather than their preparation.

Who knew, right???

You can learn to shoot barebow relatively quickly, enjoyably and well, or you can struggle for years. Pretty much your choice!

Most cannot do it, leave it to those who can.

The archery dictionary is different from a normal dictionary. Don't believe it look em up. Instinct--brace--bracer--braced-- tab-- riser---compound--- traditional--split vision--anchor--butt--bare bow--freestyle--pile- fistmele--loose We are all in the same sport just speaking a different language. Words can mean different things in different settings. It is all good. Have fun with it. >>>----> Ken

The old thread I posted up was of the same nature as this one. Wayyyyyyyyyy back almost 20 years ago was the same thing we still see today. I tried to post a thread a few days ago to unify and put to rest this thing about instinctive and had a nuclear reaction. It is time we laid it to rest and realize that instinctive is a legit way to describe the method and let it flow down the river.>>>>---------> sammo,,peace

One last comment for you Sam, next time you go out and dare to try split finger shooting, DON'T LOOK AT YOUR ARROW. You know you want to, but don't do it.

Gooood one Rick,,,lol dean,,split is better for one thing,keeping your fingers apart.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>------------------->sammmmmmmmmooooooooo

You guys you need a bow sight.

Using a sight or other sighting reference will go a long way in solving many shooting problems. May even help many cases of target panic, which is largely mental.

"which is largely mental.' So i take it that you have met Sam.

I do not know Sam, but much of target panic is mental. What else can "panic" be????

Sometimes just a small change in attitude can correct a block, I seen that just last week with my wife.

I am known by many and feared by few! lol >>>>>>---------- >.../sammo

This is a good thread, Hopefully it will keep a style of shooting from going the way of the dinosaurs (Instinct)

Way oversold! ...but I'll in favor of democracy...

I don't have enough time on earth left to spend it reading this whole thread.

I did have a young man come to my house with a new bow and grossly overspined arrows and he wanted to learn to shoot. After putting on a feather rest, velcro side plate and making him a new thinner string we started shooting my correctly spined arrows in the backyard.

I taught him some form basics and we started out at 15 yards. I taught him to shoot 3 under and explained that there is a gap between the point of the arrow and the target at any range. This was a simple explanation of a gap system and he easily caught on to this. By the second visit, he could group all of the arrows into a NFAA face at 20 yards.

My point is why would I want to teach a newby a system of instinctive aiming that people say "very few can master", "takes years of practice to get good"?

Gap is not better, just easier to learn.

I'm not sure what I am I concentrate on where I want to hit but my eyes-mind is aware of the arrow & where it needs to be to make the shot & my form makes the biggest difference in shot consistency from day to day. I am almost 100% confident that the majority that claim to be pure instinctive with no reference to the arrow whatsoever would shoot considerably larger groups if shooting at a lighted target in the pitch black dark. but honestly as long as your happy with your accuracy & not wounding animals if ya hunt then to each his own

There is no such thing as instinctive shooting. Nor is there memory in your muscles. It's learned referencing and well documented in early manufacturing. These were studies on how people could perform on an assembly line and how long it took to train people to perform a task. Every archery book out there instructs a beginner to start shooting at very close distance and move back from there, so in fact it is learning the reference points. Remember 80% of our world comes in thru your eyesight, so everything about shooting a bow has a reference point to make that work.

At age 16, 49 yrs ago, I and began with a fairly conscious "gap method" and after couple years was killing squirrels, carp and deer. Around '70 went to compounds shot with fingers, no peep and at 1st one pin then 3, but no range finders and usually holding high/low w/ pins w/o conscious distance estimation. Returned to trad archery 20 years ago and followed G. Fred's "instinctive" approach. I honestly dont think I am as consistent as I was at age 16 to 18 using gaps. Also, after getting trifocals few years back and missing several deer one season had to slide glasses down to burn a hole in the spot. Inability to clearly pick a spot, i.e. visual acuity, sure messed w/ my accuracy. I dont care at all what it's called I just wanna shoot the best I can bc I hate missing deer.

It is rare that it is so dark in the wild that one can not aim. We shot the other night after dark. The moon gave more than enough light to shoot from any angle.

Very few people have the mental concentration to shoot with the so called instinctive method. I would advise most to use a sight or reference method. Best to leave instinctive to those with the discipline, desire and ability.

When I go to my country place to shoot I shoot pure instinctive. I instinctively shoot from so far back that i can use my point as a reference on the target. i could, but when I shoot instinctive, I instinctively don't use the point on the target. Messquietly you are so wrong, there most definitely is memory in your muscles. After a lazy spell, I walked straight up a long ice and snow covered slope the other day. You ever wake up screaming because a calf muscle just twisted sideways like a baseball?? That muscle remembered what it did and wanted to remind me to never do that to it again. Oh yes, if someone is pure instinctive they should practice shooting at any distance from 20 to 80 yards, they can do that, because it's instinctive and distances don't matter.

My style of shooting is called mediocre

my comments were based on science, your muscle does not possess memory, your brain has memory. Also why would you practice shooting at 20-80 yards if you rely strictly on instinct. Instinct would suggest that you can pick it up without practice and just do it instinctively.

Instinctive has always had a different meaning to me, since it was just a division to shoot in, like divisions now at events. I probably shoot mostly gap with some purely "point and hope" for the really short targets. At night, can't judge distance worth a flip, so I too would loose some arrows on those coon shoots too.

My take on it is to just shoot old arrows at the night time shoots.

206 posts that prove nothing to anyone. Some can, some can't, some claim it can't be done, others cry foul. So post number 207 will also be inconclusive. I know what I can do whether anyone else can do it or not, and I still use the term instinctive because it was coined before anyone here was born. So there...put that in your smoke and pipe it. ;)

Many cannot shoot instinctively, hence the false belief nobody can. Lots of twisted and misinformation by those who are unable, nothing new here.

Instinctive is just a word everyone likes to argue over. Point and shoot, sub conscious, peripheral vision, split vision, focus on a spot, whatever, you can probably come up with 100s of words to describe the way some of us shoot, but it’s not worth getting your panties in a bind over terminology. I would rather just shoot than argue over words!

Lol, everyone ignores the definition of instinctive that is when you do something subconciously.

Whatever it is, obviously very few are capable.

Whatever it is, obviously very few are capable.

There is no reason to take any of this very serious. As Miss quiet points out, and I believe him to be exactly correct, if instinctive shooting was purely instinctive, there would never be a need to start up close. I like starting out at point on and work in, the closer to the target the more the automatic response kicks in, but I still acknowledge the arrow by squeezing it into positional towards the end of my draw, Hill style. Beyond 45 yards I aim like a surveyor, with about a half second hold, I am not good enough to shoot completely fluid beyond 45 yards.

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