Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Hickory staves

Messages posted to thread:
Timberking 17-Oct-18
Bassman 17-Oct-18
woodshavins 17-Oct-18
Stoner 17-Oct-18
Stoner 17-Oct-18
PEARL DRUMS 17-Oct-18
Eric Krewson 17-Oct-18
George Tsoukalas 17-Oct-18
Zbone 17-Oct-18
Timberking 17-Oct-18
Eric Krewson 18-Oct-18
Zbone 18-Oct-18
Zbone 18-Oct-18
Zbone 18-Oct-18
Zbone 18-Oct-18
BowAholic 18-Oct-18
Jeff Durnell 18-Oct-18
Jeff Durnell 18-Oct-18
dean 18-Oct-18
Zbone 18-Oct-18
From: Timberking
Date: 17-Oct-18




Ok, so I’m trying to learn how to build self bows. I live in Northern Minnesota and most of what I have available is White Birch, some Elm, Ash and HHB but I have none seasoned. Where/who is the best place to buy a stave of Hickory for a beginner from?

From: Bassman Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 17-Oct-18




Ebay, or you can buy a board ,and make a board bow from Lowes ,or your local lumber yard.If you have hh, elm, ash you can build one green. Build a form the shape you want the bow to be.Ax ,and rasp a green stave about 85 % down so that it will bend to the shape of the form.Straighten it with clamps, and line the tips up with the riser, and take the twists out. Let it dry on its own in your basement. When dry take it off the form ,and start the tiller process. I do this a lot with clean saplings. I make mostly pyramad bows 62,64,66,68 inches long ,and tapered 1 and 3/4 to 2 inches at the fades to one half inch at the tips.

From: woodshavins
Date: 17-Oct-18




If Pine Hollow Longbows is still in business, Mike Yancey can set you up. Otherwise, You might try eBay? Remember to get the hickory good and dry before you start stressing it! Good luck to you. BTW: The HHB and Elm in your area is (imo) superior to hickory (in most cases).

From: Stoner
Date: 17-Oct-18




I was in Michigan when I first started making selfbows. I didn't even know what Osage was. Built my first out of birch and killed a deer 60 yards from where I felled the tree. I had no one to refer to other than the skool of had knocks. I am though a firm believer of the Traditional Bowyers Bible book series (also this website). So I know how you feel in the north country. All that said, I have Oklahoma and Michigan Osage seasoned. It is yours, just pay shipping. John

From: Stoner
Date: 17-Oct-18




Forgot to mention I don't have hickory ….YET!! John

From: PEARL DRUMS
Date: 17-Oct-18




I'd take John up on the oasage staves, nothing beats osage in the long run. Very kind of you, John.

From: Eric Krewson
Date: 17-Oct-18




For me hickory is hickory, most of the time I don't know the species and cut what is available, I have never made a bow from shagbark that I know of. I think most of my hickory has been mockernut or pignut, I couldn't tell any difference in performance between the two.

From: George Tsoukalas
Date: 17-Oct-18




Take a peak at my site. Jawge http://traditionalarchery101.com

From: Zbone
Date: 17-Oct-18




I’m pretty familiar with hickories, I have all three species in my 1 acre yard, yes my yard, the house was built in 1978 amungst a hardwood grove, and the hulls are a real pain to clean up…

Here’s is a little crash course on identification...Bitternut or as we call them here – Pignut, have smoothest bark and unmistakable thin skin hulls and are the smallest leaf (about one foot but usually with 7 leaflets)… Shellbark are the largest (one to two feet, also usually with 7 leaflets)… Shagbark Hickory leaves tend to have 5 leaflets and the size ranges from one foot to 15 inches.

For me, Shag and Shell are hard to identify in winter and have to count the leaflets in summer… 5 leaflets – Shagbark,,, 7 leaflets – Shellbark…

Most in my yard are Shagbarks...

From: Timberking
Date: 17-Oct-18




Thanks for all the replies guys. Stoner, I sent you a PM. I’ve been trying the green wood thing but with Birch. It’s been a struggle to find a tree with grain straight enough that it won’t run out the side when I split it. Not sure if I’m doing something wrong but damn near EVERY one I split it runs out the side and ruins my plans for the stave. Most of my attempts have been with White Birch.

From: Eric Krewson
Date: 18-Oct-18




If you have trouble getting stave length wood spline straight billets. I have made a lot more billet bows than stave bows.

From: Zbone
Date: 18-Oct-18




Elderly OCR - As said, my Dad always called them Pignut, he once worked at a saw mill, but the following straight from our Department of Natural Resources web page, they don't list Pignut:

" Bitternut Hickory Carya cordiformis A deciduous tree from the Walnut Family (Juglandaceae)

BITTERNUT HICKORY Zone: 3-7 Growth Rate: Medium Mature Spread: 35' Mature Height: 70' Shape: Slender Sunlight: Full sun except in youth Soil Type: Deep and moist, from poorly drained to well drained treeBitternut Hickory,found throughout all of Ohio, is a common Hickory that has bitter nuts usually too ill-fit for human consumption, as its name implies. It is unlike Shagbark and Shellbark Hickories in more ways than this, in that its leaflets are more lance-shaped, its fruits have four-winged husks and are thin-shelled, its bark is sinewy when young with criss-crossing ridges at maturity, its small winter buds are yellow and valvate, and its twigs are slender and rapidly growing.

Bitternut Hickory grows to 60 feet tall by 25 feet wide when found in the open, with a crown of ascending branches and a lower canopy of pendulous branches. As a member of the Walnut Family, it is related to other Hickories and the Walnuts.

Planting Requirements - Bitternut Hickory prefers deep, moist soils that range from poorly drained to well-drained, but is often found in drier conditions. Its alternative common name of Swamp Hickory implies that it can be a companion to Shellbark Hickory, which strongly prefers bottomland sites. It tolerates shade in its youth, but needs full sun at maturity and is adaptable to acidic, neutral, or alkaline pH soils. It is found in zones 4 to 9.

Potential Problems - Bitternut Hickory has cleaner foliage in late summer as compared to other hickories; that is, its leaflets tend not to be as riddled by chewing insects. It has virtually no disease or pest problems and is rapidly growing. As with all Hickories, it is constantly raining debris from its fruit crop from late summer throughout autumn, making fall cleanup in urban areas more challenging.

Identifying Features - Bitternut Hickory Leaf

Leaves of Bitternut Hickory are alternate and pinnately compound, up to one foot long, and usually display seven narrow leaflets (ranging from five to eleven), with fine serrations on their margins.

Spring and summer leaf color is medium green to dark green, while fall color is often green to chartruese, but sometimes a brilliant golden-yellow in excellent seasons.

Flower

Male and female flowers of Bitternut Hickory occur on the same tree and thus this and other hickories are termed monoecious. Three-branched staminate (male) catkins droop from the previous year's twig growth, while pistillate (female) flowering spikes occur at the terminus of the current season's growth. Flowering occurs in mid-spring.

Fruit

The fruits of Bitternut Hickory are composed of a bitter innermost kernel, surrounded by a hard bony shell with four ribs, surrounded by a thin outer husk that splits into four quarters when ripe. The fruits are distinct in that they have four easily visible ribs on the outer portion of the husk.

Twig

The single most distinctive feature of Bitternut Hickory from mid summer until early spring is its sulfur-yellow buds. They are termed valvate, because they are composed of pairs of scales (like the bills of a duck), rather than multiple scales overlapping around the bud. The terminal is the longest and most flattened, and appears to be two miniature leaves.

Bark

The light gray bark of Bitternut Hickory is the smoothest of the Hickories, and has a sinewy, muscled, sometimes twisted character. With age, it develops interlacing ridges and shallow furrows that may cause it to be mistakenly identified as an ash (which also has compound leaves, but they are opposite, rather than alternate). Bitternut Hickory never develops the peeling character of Shagbark or Shellbark Hickories. "

From: Zbone
Date: 18-Oct-18




Here's the other two:

"Shagbark Hickory Carya ovata A deciduous tree from the Walnut Family (Juglandaceae)

SHAGBARK HICKORY Zone: 4-8 Growth Rate: Medium Mature Spread: 40' Mature Height: 100' Shape:Oblong crown Sunlight: Full to partial sun Soil Type: deep, moist, rich, well drained under sunny conditions Shagbark HickoryShagbark Hickory a slow-growing but potentially massive tree located in all of Ohio, is frequently found in dry uplands or moist valleys in association with other hickories and oaks. Its cut timber is prized for making tool handles, athletic equipment, furniture, construction timbers, and firewood. Its "green" wood (or sometimes seasoned but freshly-wetted wood chips) is also sought after for the smoking of meats, especially pork meats. Its sweet and large nuts are relished by squirrels. The most distinctive feature of this tree is its shaggy bark, which peels in long, wide, thick strips from the trunk and branches, giving it the alternative common name of Scalybark Hickory. Its bold- textured, jagged branch structure and thick twigs give it a striking appearance in winter.

A native to most of the Eastern United States, Shagbark Hickory is a climax forest tree in well-drained, moist to dry woodland soils. It grows to 100 feet tall by 40 feet wide when found in the open. As a member of the Walnut Family, it is related to the Walnuts, as well as other Hickories (there are three types, namely the Pecans, the Shagbarks, and the Pignuts).

Planting Requirements - Shagbark Hickory prefers deep, moist, rich, well-drained soils under sunny conditions, but is often found in the dry upland soils of woods or fields because of its superior drought tolerance. It tolerates the shade of nearby trees when young, when its branching is upright and spindly and it first develops its deep taproot system. It is found in zones 4 to 8.

Potential Problems - Shagbark Hickory is virtually disease and pest free, although many insects nibble at its foliage throughout the summer. However, it sends down a constant rain of leaflets, rachises, dead twigs, immature fruits, outer husks, and debris from squirrel feeding from mid-summer until late autumn, presenting a constant clean-up chore and mowing hazard when it is found in urban areas.

Identifying Features - Shagbark Hickory Leaf

The large leaves of Shagbark Hickory are alternate, pinnately compound, up to fifteen inches long, and almost always have five wide leaflets (rarely seven or nine), with fine serrations on the leaflet margins.

The terminal leaflet is always the largest. Spring and summer leaf color is medium green to dark yellow-green, while fall color is often a faded green to chartruese. However, in excellent autumns, the leaf color changes to a brilliant golden-yellow or yellow-brown.

Flower [no image]

Male and female flowers of Shagbark Hickory occur on the same tree (and thus this species, like all Hickories, is monoecious). The three-branched staminate (male) catkins droop from the previous year's twig growth, while pistillate (female) flowering spikes occur at the terminus of the current season's growth. Flowering occurs in mid-spring.

Fruit

The fruits of Shagbark Hickory are composed of an innermost sweet kernel, surrounded by a hard bony shell with four subtle ribs, surrounded by a thick outer husk that splits open into four quarters when ripe. The nuts are relished by squirrels. Litter from the slow-rotting husks and shells may persist for several years.

Twig

The stout twigs of Shagbark Hickory are reddish-brown or gray by the first winter, and have terminal and lateral buds that are larger than most other trees. The first-year twigs are often more narrow than the terminal bud , but this is not always true. Horsechestnut and Shellbark Hickory are two trees that have even larger buds and thicker twigs.

Bark

The young gray bark of Shagbark Hickory is smooth and striated (having shallow vertical grooves of a different color, as shown at lower left), but soon develops wide buckling ridges that begin to separate from the underlying bark. With age, the long ridges separate and become peeling at one or both ends, forming long curly strips or plates, giving rise to the common name. This easily identifiable "shagbark" character is usually much more loose than the bark of its close relative, Shellbark Hickory.

-------

Shellbark Hickory Carya laciniosa A deciduous tree from the Walnut Family (Juglandaceae)

SHELLBARK HICKORY Zone: 5-8 Growth Rate: Medium Mature Spread: 40' Mature Height: 80' Shape: Narrow, oblong crown Sunlight: Full to partial sun Soil Type: Moist to occasionally wet, rich

Shellbark Hickory, a slow-growing but potentially massive tree scattered throughout Ohio, is often found in moist bottomlands where Shagbark Hickory usually does not grow. Like other hickories, its heavy, dense, strong, yet elastic wood is sought after for making tool handles, athletic equipment, furniture, construction timbers, and firewood, and its wood chips are utilized in the smoking of meats. Its sweet, huge nuts are relished by squirrels and give it an alternative common name of King Nut Hickory, due to their being the largest of the hickories.

A native to the Midwestern United States and stretching into portions of the southern, eastern, and Great Plains states, Shellbark Hickory is a climax forest tree in moist soils, particularly along flood plains and bottomland areas. It grows to 80 feet tall by 40 feet wide when found in the open. As a member of the Walnut Family, it is related to other Hickories and the Walnuts.

Planting Requirements - Shellbark Hickory prefers deep, moist to occasionally wet, rich soils under sunny conditions, such as are found in bottomlands, flatlands that do not drain quickly, and floodplains. It tolerates shade in its youth, when it is stretching for sunlight beneath the canopy of taller trees, and develops its deep taproot system. Like other Hickories, it is very tolerant of summer drought, even though it prefers moist conditions. It is found in zones 5 to 8.

Potential Problems - Shellbark Hickory is virtually disease- and pest-free, although its leaflets become frayed by late summer due to minor pest feeding. However, it sends down a constant rain of leaflets, rachises, dead twigs, immature fruits, husks, and debris from squirrel feeding from mid- summer until late autumn, presenting a constant clean-up chore and mowing hazard when it is found in urban areas.

Identifying Features - Shellbark Hickory Leaf

Leaves of Shellbark Hickory are alternate and pinnately compound, one to two feet long, and almost always display seven wide leaflets (rarely five or nine), with fine serrations on their margins.

Spring and summer leaf color is medium green to dark yellow- green, while fall color is often faded green to chartruese, but sometimes a brilliant golden-yellow to yellow-brown in excellent seasons.

Twig

The stout twigs of Shellbark Hickory are orange-brown by the first winter and have terminal and lateral buds that are larger than most other trees, except possibly Horsechestnut. The first-year twigs are often the same width as compared to the terminal bud (as shown at upper) but this is not always true. Shellbark Hickory has the largest leaf scars on its twigs as compared to any other Hickory.

New Growth

Shellbark Hickory usually emerges with bronzed leaves (pinkish in color) in spring, and the base of the new growth may have reflexed winter bud scales that hang on for one or more years. These traits are especially evident on young saplings. Male and female flowers of Shellbark Hickory occur on the same tree and thus this and other Hickories are monoecious. Three- branched staminate (male) catkins droop from the previous year's twig growth, while pistillate (female) flowering spikes occur at the terminus of the current season's growth. Flowering occurs in mid-spring.

Fruit

The fruits of Shellbark Hickory (the largest of the hickories) are composed of an inner sweet kernel, surrounded by a hard bony shell with four to six ribs, surrounded by a thick outer elongated husk that splits into four quarters when ripe. The nuts are relished by squirrels, and the large fruits make quite a thud when they fall to the ground intact.

Bark

The gray bark of Shellbark Hickory has flat ridges and shallow furrows when young and looks exactly like that of Shagbark Hickory at this stage. Most trees do not develop the peeling character of Shagbark Hickory, and their mature bark barely shows signs of this trait, having scaly ridges and moderate furrows instead. However, some Shellbark Hickories have exfoliating mature bark that mimics or even exceeds the shaggy character of their more common cousin."

From: Zbone
Date: 18-Oct-18




According to the DNR website, yeah, they don't list Pignut... They're giving the biological names... Guess my Dad has been wrong all these years, but I ain't gonna tell him...8^)

From: Zbone
Date: 18-Oct-18




Yep same slang name, yet 2 different scientific names, 2 different species... I just Googled:

" Pignut hickory

Carya glabra, the pignut hickory, is a common, but not abundant species of hickory in the oak-hickory forest association in the Eastern United States and Canada. Other common names are pignut, sweet pignut, coast pignut hickory, smoothbark hickory, swamp hickory, and broom hickory. Scientific name: Carya glabra

Bitternut hickory

Carya cordiformis, the bitternut hickory, also called bitternut or swamp hickory, is a large pecan hickory with commercial stands located mostly north of the other pecan hickories. Bitternut hickory is cut and sold in mixture with the true hickories. Scientific name: Carya cordiformis"

Pictures show just 5 leaves on Pignut, Scientific name: Carya glabra... Yep we the Bitternut here, I've counted the leaves.. Didn't realize there were that many species of hickorys, only thought there were 3... Interesting...

From: BowAholic
Date: 18-Oct-18




the latest edition of Trees of Arkansas has 9 different species of hickories listed...which includes pecan. Pignut makes a great bow.

From: Jeff Durnell Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 18-Oct-18




Pignut, bitternut, and mockernut are different smoothbark species. I don't worry too much about discerning between them. When I can cut a real nice smoothbark hickory, I jump on it. I've used shagbark too, it's just usually harder to see imperfections through the bark.

From: Jeff Durnell Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 18-Oct-18




Yep, good info there. That's where I went.

From: dean
Date: 18-Oct-18




Someone sent me a pignut stave years ago, he said it was true pignut, not butternut or shagbark. It has a nearly perfect grain. I turned into a flat limb, It has gone through a bit of rework over the years. I have shot rabbits, geese, pheasant and three deer with it. It is well over 60 pounds and shoots 50-55 cedars about the same speed of a 50 to 55 pound Hill longbow. I am going to reduce its poundage this winter down to 55 pounds or so.

From: Zbone
Date: 18-Oct-18




Well this thread turned into an education...8^)





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