Recently had a 62" 43# at my 27" draw Toelke Super D delivered by Dan & Jerrod. Shoots my full length GT Warrior 700s with a 175 gr Valkyrie broad head like a laser. I'm very comfortable and accurate with the set up. Total Weight 380 gr. I have not checked the speed but i'm guessing 170 fps, generating approximately 24.38 foot pound of KE.

My question is, is it enough to a pass through the rib cage of a big whitetail, say 275 pound animal.

With my peak draw weight under 50# and a 27" draw, I have learned it ain't possible for me to get through a shoulder, so why not go for accuracy. If it's enough.

http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/TF/lw/thread2.cfm?threadid=240174&category=88#4474480

Hope it works.

Heck yeah its big enough. Say you only get 8 inches penetration and it runs off with the arrow flopping and cutting the heck out of everything it comes in contact with ? Avoid that shoulder though.

Yes, I kill big bodied deer every year with a 400 grain arrow at 170 fps.

Wait a minute. A 275lb whitetail, in Texas. Who's kidding who?

lol

I havent shot a deer with it yet but i shoot 43#@30 on a custon 555 grain arrow 21% foc and 31 ft pds of energy

43 pounds was enough for this guy. 500 grain arrow.

Thanks for the input everyone.

Bill, I gotta travel 10 hours east of central Texas to fertile grounds near the Mississippi River for 275# whitetail. Deer in my home area of central Texas are about half that size.

I killed a big 6 point last week with 40 lbs. penetrated to the off shoulder.

I don't know how many times we have to go over this. It's been discussed here hundreds of times. A 40# bow will shoot as fast as a 60# bow given matching gpp arrows, so the question isn't about bow weight, it's about the arrow and the arrow flight.

“With my peak draw weight under 50# and a 27" draw, I have learned it ain't possible for me to get through a shoulder, so why not go for accuracy. If it's enough.”

I’m not sure that I agree with the “ain’t possible” part of that statement.

I’m never sure how other people judge their own draw length, which can make comparisons challenging. Nor am I certain as to your definition of “through a shoulder”, so maybe we’re talking about different things altogether.

But at my sub-28” DL and shooting lower #50s, I at least know that I was able to zip a Thunderhead 125 through the meaty part of the shoulder, stitch right through the heart and not have it stop until it ran up against the humerus on the off side. Not square into it, but the head was tight to the bone as if it had had to move off the line of penetration. Placed another inch off of the bone, it likely would have exited.

Now I prefer COCs and lighter, better-tuned arrows (which is what I’d guess you have there), so....

I think you’re covered!

Actually the question asked is this: Is 380gr arrow shot from a #43@27" enough to kill a deer or not? Answers will be just 3: No, Yes and Maybe.

I would use a heavier arrow, but yes 40-45# bows were the norm for large Wisconsin whitetails before compounds came out. Arrow weight very important.

Killing a 275 lb.white tail is the question with a 43lbs. at 27 inch draw bow with a light 380 gr arrow. Keep your shots as close as you can.

People have taken Moose with that weight, so yeah you'll blow through a deer, as long as your arrows are tuned. DANNY

A 380 grain arrow from a 43# bow equals 8.8 gpp, just shy of 9 gpp.

That is just fine in my book.

Yes it will be fine, you'll be surprised the penetration you get. Just use a coc head thats sharp.

If tuning is perfect and a well placed arrow at short range (under 20 yards on a calm day, under 10 on a windy day) you should have no issues. However, not much room for error in any of the above.

So, in my experience of taking 8 or so of what I would call “big” body bucks with bows ranging from 36-45 pounds, I would say it’s not so much the bow weight but the setup. For me with your gear at 0-25 yards I’d feel comfortable. All those bucks and a lot more does were taken with arrows in the 9-10 GPP range, with a few “experimental” arrows in the 11-14GPP range mixed in.

As I said above, yes it will work. That being said, I have to ask, have you tried 600 spine arrows? They are a little heavier, so you could easily get a 440 grain arrow. I shoot them in lots of bows in that draw weight and less I have a 27" draw and obtain perfect arrow flight. I shoot bullet holes in paper when tuned. I would expect better penetration with the added weight, and arrow trajectory should be plenty flat to 20 yards.

Thanks for the wisdom everyone. To respond to a few comments.

1. I asked is it enough because I watched a 165" 275 pound whitetail run off with my 515 grain arrow (shot from an RD 47# at my 27" draw bow) stuck in his shoulder. He was killed by a compound hunter 3 weeks later. Big deer wasn't even limping.

2. I did try 600 spine, but need to replace the cat whiskers with small puffs to make it work. Might do that.

3. George, My wife said that if I'm asking the question you will have to go over more than once. She has learned this from experience. The woman has a 170 IQ. Very hard to argue with the gal, but I use it to my advantage.

Best to all! Tom

Good, heavier 600 spine will be better IMHO. Be confident when your shot opportunity comes, shot placement is improved if you do as you do when practicing, in other words, don't over think it. Range it, pick a small spot, point it, pull to anchor, and release! I want to see the photo of you with your deer!

Good thread Tom! I always enjoy hearing about others' setups and results. Especially those that parallel mine ( low 40s). Best of luck!

Yes.

Yes

My father was mentored by two older gentlemen in the late 60's and early 70's. They were brothers. They killed over 100 whitails between them using longbows under. 40 lbs. and cedar arrows.

What do the cat whiskers have to do with it?

They added a bit more weight to the string slowing it down over the smaller puffs thus allowing a bit heavier spine to be used.

Catwhiskers are heavier than acrylic yarn or other silencers, JR. So they slow the string slightly

I don’t think so. Get the arrow weight close to 450 grains. That’s been the magic number for me.

Darn. You guys split hairs.

“They added a bit more weight to the string slowing it down over the smaller puffs thus allowing a bit heavier spine to be used.”

That’s a poorly constructed sentence, but it make sense in context... The bow can be tuned with stiffer arrows if the string is lightened by going to puffs...

And of course you can add point weight... because you don’t need any more speed than you need. Doesn’t take a very quick bow to shoot flat out to 50 feet!

You would be surprised how easy it is to tune a close arrow with just silencer materials. That being said I don’t know the answer to your question but to guess like most folks do I’m sure it will do just fine. Even a big deer hit where you are supposed to hit them is no challenge for a tuned arrow and a sharp head. If you have hogs shoot one and see what it does. Hogs are a lot tougher than deer and I bet you a cheeseburger your setup would pass through all but the biggest

If you want consisten passthroughs, a 380 grain arrow is not going to get it, not from a 43# bow. No way, no how.

Increase arrows weight, rule of thumb is 10 to 12 gpp. A D will probably need 11 or 12. I shoot a 41lb Widow at 10 gpp and have zero issues. Iowa has big bodied deer.

Just in case we mis-read the question, No, you will not make a big enough hole with that set up to pass you job.

Don't have anything to do with bow weight it has to do with arrow placement and the sharpness of the broad head.

You can kill the animal with a field point or a sharpened pencil in the lungs so with that said your set up is more than enough.

No you can,t kill a deer consistently with a field point. I may be the only one on here who has shot a live deer in the rib cage with a field point. Back in my compound days I was shooting a 50# bow with heavy 2117 eastons and 125-grain snuffers. I dropped a nice 8pt. at 15 feet from a tree stand that was 10 feet high. I spined the deer, and he was thrashing around so I shot and missed twice with broadheads. I climbed down and took the last arrow out of my quiver, you guessed it a field tipped 2117 arrow and shot the deer in the rib cage at something like 10 feet. That arrow bounced off a rib, I pulled an arrow out of the ground and quickly wiped some of the dirt off the broadhead, that arrow completely penetrated that deer's rib cage. So no a field tip does not work!

A field point bounced off? I stuck a 2117 through 1/2 plywood without a point on it out of my compound at about that distance. Had to be something else going on there.

May have been 1/4 inch I can’t really recal

Isn't that about 8.8 grains per pound?

Nope, nothing else going on. I said nothing about shooting at plywood. Broadhead, pass through, field point bounced off buck's rib at 10 feet. This was a live deer I was attempting to dispatch. I was surprised as well. Do I think it is possible to shoot through a deer's ribcage if you hit in between the ribs, probably. I am just saying it would not be a given by any measure.

Who here almost always get passthroughs with a 380 grain arrow? Come on, get real.

Killed Bambi clean last Tuesday with a 43@28 Warf and a 28 1/2 CE Heritage and 175 Zwickey at 22 yards..dead in seconds and passed through but she broke my precious shaft on a tree hanging out at the first lunge,,,

Would advise you to but have killed other beasts like Elk with less than 50.

I know where there's a lady that has killed about 20 bears, and countless deer with a 38lb. bow. However, she understands animal anatomy, and know when to shoot, and where to hit them.

Follow up. So I hunted last Tuesday night with the 62" 43# at my 27" draw Toelke Super D and 380 grain arrow tipped with a scary sharp Valkyrie 3 blade broadhead. Shot this 175 pound boar at 8 yards with a hard quartering away shot. Hog pile up after 60 yard sprint. The sow he a was with walked back in a few minutes later and I drilled her with slight quartering away shot in the arm pit. Only got 2" of penetration. A mere flesh wound.

My final determination is that the light set up is enough for whitetail if the shot is really accurate, but not much room for error.

Another 100 grs. of arrow weight would not hurt. Momentum.JMO.

I guess I’d like to know more about that shot on the sow…

I haven’t shot at anything live with a #40-ish bow, but so many deer have been taken cleanly with bows in that range that I’m really not worried about it...

The sow was about 150 pounds. Hogs have that "plate" or thick layer of fat & cartilage cover the shoulder and back a few inches. I think I hit the back portion of the plate. Pretty confident it would have of been a heart shot on a whitetail.

The good news is that the Toelke Super D puts the arrow right where I'm aiming. I replaced the cat-whiskers with puffs and got my GT Traditionals with 225gr up front flying really well. Total arrow weight 500gr. Definitely slower, but almost point on at 20 yards. I like that for hunting.

Now shoot that 380 gr arrow, and the 500 gr arrow into a target to see which penetrates the target better,and that will be your answer.

Robert I did exactly that recently (406 and 490 grain arrows) out of a 40# longbow and the lighter arrow penetrated a bit better so i threw them in my quiver. Now this was in no way a thorough accurate test and I don't claim the results were 100 percent conclusive, but they did support Rick Barbees closer to 9 gpp findings. I happened to accidentally put one of the 406 grain arrows tipped w a stinger two blade through my barn siding and the arrow went 15 yards beyond ( again, not scientific or representative of actual tissue, but a confidence booster). I know i have to shoot through the rib cage and can't contact heavy bone w my rig. Do you think you can get to the point of diminishing returns when increasing arrow weight? Not arguing, just curious.

Responding to your October 4th reply. The problem as you described, "the deer ran off with my arrow stuck in the shoulder.". It wasn't that the bow wasn't enough, it was your shot's impact/placement on the deer. If the deer was a quartering away shot, it wasn't a square in shot as it would be on a broadside deer, is the problem. No one knows at what rotation a broahead will enter the deer caused by the spin of the arrow, is why you don't want to hit a quartering away deer in the shoulder. Two examples: 1) If the broadhead entered the deer parallel to its shoulder blade it could easily slide along the outside of it till it hits the forward spine of the shoulder blade, equals no chest penetration. 2) If the broadhead enters parallel to the ground (perpendicular to the shoulder blade) only one edge would come in contact with the shoulder blade and will only slice along the side of the shoulder blade till it hits the spine of the shoulder blade, no chest penetration. Even on a completely broadside shot, the forward part of the shoulder blade is the thickest part of that bone because if its spine (it forms a T), and extremely difficult to penetrate if at all. The rearward edge is thinner and can be penetrate with enough energy on a "square" broadside shot. As the arrow is flying it only needs to be off a fraction of an inch right or left on a quartering shot. If its impact point is going to be at the back "edge" of the shoulder blade (not where you may have aimed), that is going to dictate as to whether you go into the chest, along the outside of the shoulder blade, or actually cut up though the middle of the bone itself. Two out of the three possibilities are not good. The shoulder is not some place you want to hit with an arrow and that is what you described. So it sounds more an issue of arrow impact/placement and not if the bow produces enough energy to kill a large deer. DANNY

It is not the shoulder hit that i question.I have seen it more than once were you get only 2 inches of penetration hitting hard shoulder bone no matter how strong the bow is. If your first pig was a rib shot at 8 yds. with out hitting any spine that is the one i question.If it hit spine then that is different. As for arrow weight any time i have ever shot heavier vs lighter arrows for penetration tests which in your case would be 406 vs 490 mass and momentum has always won out,for me any how.Yours test showed the opposite, so we can agree to disagree and still be friends.Good shooting and good hunting.Good shooting and hunting Tomas De Gato.I like that name.

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