We have eye/hand coordination and that allows us to point something. We point a Bow at a target using the bow hand and the arrow.
We make consistency by the triangle and a system called form.
The eye and the rear anchor point are two references of the initial pointing of the arrow with the front hand and the arrow all aimed (pointed) at the center of the target.
If you concentrate on alignment, your chances of hitting the center go up in percentage.
The burning a hole crowd say they do it all by instinct which is incorrect. They are putting all the things together and using references to aim at something by Pointing.
Aspirin buster shoot behind his back. One girl shoots with her feet at exibitions. exhibitions. Why is it so important to try n prove we dunno how we shoot. I have a friend who can point a laser at a target in the dark, on a moonless night and hit the spot or come close.
Clearly stated, you are just pointing using a reference point system no matter what you call it.
Most who do not use all the references including the arrow to aim is usually shooting at targets at very close ranges.
That is why those like string walkers are able to be more consistent at ranges further away than those not taking advantage of all the reference points available to them.
That is why you never see Hole burners on the podiums.
You only see them shooting at things within spitting distances compared to those using every reference point.
"Here's something I find interesting. If you focus (BAH) on the exact center of a door knob, how long does it take before other object near the door knob start coming into your peripheral vision? For me it's about a second. I think your subconscious becomes bored looking at one spot.
I was explaining this to a group of archers and during a break one came up to me and said my point was interesting. He had been watching a show on training fighter pilots. In one segment they had all the pilots in a classroom with a sheet of paper and a pencil. The instructions were to put the pencil in the center of the paper and all the lights would be turned off and a laser dot would appear in the front of the room. They were to follow the movement of the dot with their pencil. After a couple of minutes, the lights came on papers were collected. All the papers had lines that were at least a half inch to 2 inches away from the center, but the dot had never moved!!!
Think of that and the quiet eye link mentioned. "You don’t look in the right place at the right time." That's your peripheral vision pulling in things to shoot instead of what you want to hit. I really can't find a good reason to burn a hole."
Seriously, taking down some of the so-called "methods" and explaining why they are not applicable is part of the Archery education process and helps what is actually happening in the process.
Generally when guys on here start speaking from grand latitudes, i cannot take them serious or just totally ignore them. john Schulz and Howard Hill referred to it as concentration and eye control. it takes practice, some folks are too ADD to do it and must do other things, so what? If you have a burning hole problem, you have a problem.
I acquire my target/the spot I intend to hit, before I ever start my draw.
My eyes maintain that acquisition through the entire process of bringing everything else into alignment with it, and continues until I see the arrow strike, and even a moment after.
With one exception to Ricks definition, you use your reference points of the Bow and anchors to point it at that spot and you want to hit and aim only after you have reached your draw and anchors. It is physically impossible to aim until you are at full draw.
Rick B: "Burning a hole to me, equates to the following: I acquire my target/the spot I intend to hit, before I ever start my draw.
My eyes maintain that acquisition through the entire process of bringing everything else into alignment with it, and continues until I see the arrow strike, and even a moment after.
"I pick a spot" then draw and aim". That is the truth.
You cannot aim before you reach alignment and anchors as some have said they do, you must reach draw and anchors to point or aim.
THAT is the truth and everyone should understand it?
NOT to be misunderstood with aligning the arrow with the target as some do as they draw the Bow. If they shoot before reaching anchors, consistency will be impossible for accuracy. They need to allow themselves to reach anchor and alignment to aim and complete the shot.
"you cannot aim before you reach alignment.... ". Tell that to an American Indian riding a horse and shooting a bow. They had some different styles too. Like drawing to their chest with extreme cant on the bow.
Yes, focused on the spot/target and reached alignment, then I aimed. I picked a spot and immersed myself into aiming at the spot and made it my whole world finding the center of the center."
You can burn a hole without snap shooting. If i put all focus on the the spot to hit and then anchor and hold, my mind and eye will automatically set the windage and elevation correctly or damn near anyway. I can make that hold last 1 second or until im worn out but i do have a minimum time required which is 1 sec, 2 is better for me though. If i could be consistently accurate snap shooting i would shoot that way. Ive never had a more rewarding and frustrating way to shoot at the same time than with snap shooting and Im envious of those who can do it well.
"Seriously, taking down some of the so-called "methods" and explaining why they are not applicable is part of the Archery education process and helps what is actually happening in the process."
Sam, I would like to get an answer to this question: what was the context when the "burn a hole" was said? Without that context and understanding the circumstances, "burn a hole" is just everybody's guess vs everybody's guess.
I would offer up a challenge to all the Hole burners that shoot quickly and claim to aim before they ever draw the Bow to shoot at stuff past 20 yards and see what happens?
These trick shooters and even some of the famous ones are shooting at stuff like aspirins at spitting distances.
The truth is that this method is largely limited by one's eyesight and smaller objects just cannot be tracked at a longer distance.
There is more to this method of shooting at moving targets and mostly a timing thing with the object and the arrows lack of significant trajectory up close.
Knowing the arrow's trajectory is the challenge for those who just shoot really quickly because they are "Roughly pointing" at something without a precisely aimed shot.
My main goal in this thread was to point out that you cannot aim with any sort of precision without reaching full alignment and using all the reference points you have at your disposal to actually shoot and hit something with consistency in aiming after you reach full draw.
The whole premise that "Burning a Hole" before you aim somehow translates into aiming before you reach anchor is simply not true.
The only thing you have done is seen the mark you want to hit and decided to focus on it with some concentration and then when you reach alignment you can then point at it using the Bow as your reference point.
Conclusion; There simply is no aiming before you even draw a Bow and Arrow, you are simply using the Bow hand and alignment to point at something you have focused your attention upon hitting with an arrow you are gonna shoot at it!
"The whole premise that "Burning a Hole" before you aim somehow translates into aiming before you reach anchor is simply not true."
This statement is wrong based on my experience. There is a relation between the distance to the target and the bow hand elevation IF you don't use sights, no matter the aiming method. If you start thinking at full draw what the distance is and where to put the tip of the arrow for that distance you are in big trouble. To not say that it contradicts a proved method used not by HH but all the war archery since the bow was considered good enough in warfare.
Sam, I did a test or "reverse engineering" for "intuitive" shooting. I used this framework: the bow hand has to be in just one place to put the arrow on the correct path toward the target when using same form and same arrow and bow combo. I observed that to shoot the 11 ring on a bear size target at 30 yards I need to have the bow hand right below the bear's belly. I did the test and using split vision aiming as position check if I say myself "bear 30 yards below belly" the bow hand stops there and the arrow is in the x or 10 ring every time. It confirmed to me that what I was doing using intuition can be replicated using conscious mind. HH in his "hunting the hard way" described this but he never let it know as aiming training.
Like I have always maintained, the majority of hunters cannot concentrate enough to shoot with the so called "instinctive" method. Because they do not have the abilities, they believe nobody else can either. Not every ball player makes it to the big leagues, but a few do.
I agree with Rick Barbee's explanation, only because it's what I've done for years...decades.
Be it archery, golf, baseball, hockey...whatever. You hit what you're looking (focusing) at. The pitcher hits the glove (target), the hockey player "picks a knot" in the net (target) the golfer focuses on his contact point (target).
In golf...my buddy was topping irons badly last summer. I asked what was he looking at? He said, the ball. He was looking down at the top of the ball, hitting thin, bladed shots. The brain hits what the eyes are looking at. He asked what I looked at. I told him the blade of grass directly in front of the ball. AND, I HAD to SEE the club hit that blade. Thay way, the iron gathers the ball first, on it's way into the divot...clean, solid strike. IF I pull my head, and DON'T "see the strike", it ends badly...lol. Everybody I've shown that to does the same...it works.
That same visual concentration works for ME in my archery.
That's what the "acquiring target" archer has in his mind, not what I think. I say in other words "impossible" is the word used by someone who can't think out of his own experience. I say you are wrong and we agree to disagree.
A couple of questions to satisfy my curiosity.When a deer,rabbit,or pheasant jumps. Do your eyes follow it? Do you ever take your eyes off it? That is the way I treat any target and what Rick B stated. Call it aiming,focus,concentration, looking,or burning a hole. Your eyes are on the target. How else would your brain tell you which way to face where to put your feet, Where to point/aim the arrow? I read every post on this subject. Nearly every one is saying the same things with different words. Preconceived opinions and pride will not let folks accept what others say. Conscious or subconscious,mussel memory,or what ever you still have to see the target to engage. One way or another you have to make allowance for different distance with any thing but a laser. The exception being always shoot at the same distance like most of the trick/exhibition shots.Shoot straight.It matters not how you explain it.>>--> Ken
PS At full draw it happens the fine tuning of the aiming, not the aiming. A Strignwalker is just holding the arrow where he wants to hit, he is not counting the strands at full draw.
Just for a little gayety, having nothing to do with sexual preference - just for laughs.
Here's how good buring a hole works. You burn a hole in the chest cavity of a deer and release. You're arrow his the deer in the hams!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The deer was running at full tilt at 15 yards. YOu had to burn a hole three feet in front of the deer to hit the spot.
Yes, Craig always pick a spot yes! You just have to draw the bow and aim at it AFTERWARDS, and NOT BEFORE.
You cannot aim first, you can pick a spot and draw your Bow, then aim at that spot!
In that succession and no aiming before by burning holes.
You get TP and all other kinds of problems trying to aim before you draw the Bow.
Some of you have misunderstood what I have said in the beginning and that is that,,YOU CANNOT AIM A BOW UNTIL YOU DRAW IT!Gone hunting.>>>>>>>>>>>-------------------------->
O.K. This has been fun and I love to watch him shoot. Watched him several times. When he tosses something he never takes his eye of it. Probably should not be called aiming though. I very often aim a bow without drawing it. Sometimes with out even an arrow. Sometimes I use an arrow not connected to the string. You can hold it for ever to check your form in the mirror from ever angle. I shoulder and aim long guns with out firing. I aim handguns without cocking. Sometimes draw and aim sometimes just point from the hip (for close target fast practice" then maybe a dry firing practice. I believe you would call it ---practice acquiring target quickly. Never is a word used too loosely. Never say never. Hope every one has a great season. Take care. >>>>------> Ken
Sam Dunham: Let's take a closer look at Bowmania's quote you copied and pasted here...
"Quote from Bowmania; "Here's something I find interesting. If you focus (BAH) on the exact center of a door knob, how long does it take before other object near the door knob start coming into your peripheral vision? For me it's about a second. I think your subconscious becomes bored looking at one spot."
Now the fundamental flaw I see is his claim of...
"I think your subconscious becomes bored looking at one spot."
Because for me?...it's not my subconscious that's burning that hole...it's my conscious mind that does that because it keeps my conscious mind from being distracted with conscious thoughts and meanwhile?...
My subconscious is very busy multi-tasking away as it executes my well practiced and deeply ingrained shoy...instinctively.
Now I'm a gapper when shooting full length arrows off my 38# Covert Hunter and 34# Spig 650 Club BB rig 3under/tab but?...when I shoot my 28 1/2" maples off my 45# Hawk R/D Longbow abd do so shooting split finger/glove?...if I were to mfocus on the tip of my arrow?...it's point would be backdropped by dirt about 15yds in front of my feet and in that scenario?...
I burn a hole and my rig is tuned to hit where I look but admittedly?...I'm not inclined to shoot that rig much over 20yds but have shot it out too 30yds and on a good day?...can keep 3 shot groups on a paper plate....most times. ;)
Sam: "Hey, Jinks, do you aim before you draw the Bow?"
Good question...the answer required thought and while I wouldn't term it as "Aiming"?...I do take a moment to visualize my shot prior to drawing and at that point if I have aimed anything?...I guess I could say..."I Aim My Body"...and if I had to describe that?...I believe it's my shoulders and hips that wind up falling into alignment with my visual lock of burning that hole and moreover?...
I really don't use nor do I even like the term BAH...I think folks feel it's a cool buzz term but it often gets abused.
Jinks, be careful there. Saying that your form and shooting sequence is the result of your brain activity positioning the arrow in the most efficient way to hit the target - aka aiming with your body - will make you a clown.
Naaaaaaaaa, Draven you assume things that are not there. Yes, Understand what you are saying Bill.
You are mentally focused on hitting something with your Bow.
I can do that, just saying people who say they aim first, then draw the Bow are singing the song, "It's magic, never believe it's not so!" lol...back is killing me today,,dang!
No, I don't assume a thing. You deny the intention to sent the arrow into something the reason that stays behind the form and aiming method. When intention was formed in your brain, the aiming started. At full draw you are fine tuning if needed.
I believe I was misunderstood. I don't shoot without aiming. If I do I miss. I do aim without shooting. Words have meaning. Webster: Aim-- To point a weapon at a target. To direct toward a specified target. The ability to hit a target, as his aim was off. A clear intent or purpose. Soooo unless you don't point your bow toward the target. YOU ARE AIMING. I didn't make up the word. It is all good no hard feelings call it anything you like. Have fun and have a great season. >>>>-----> Ken
I would like to add something to this conversation. To burn a hole is a misnomer. To focus on a spot on the target as Rick stated is correct. Rifle, pistol,shotgun,or bow you have to aquire a/the target, the spot you want to hit. If you don't do that you are just shooting projectiles at something down range. Like shooting at the whole deer not a spot on the deer. Once you aquire the target, you line up and settle in for the shot, reaching full draw/anchor with the bow string, and aligning the bow hand/arm to the target. Now the question is what are you defining as hitting what you are aiming at. The precise pencil point, a dime, a nickle, a quarter, or a silver dollar point being each of these targets are getting larger. Is close (inch or two off) an exact hit when we are talking a live animal or a miss when we are talking an 11 ring on a 3D target. The more precise you are with a repeatable anchor, your alignment to the target with your bow hand/arm, and what your brain has learned about where to place your bow hand at a given distance in relationship to the target, the more precise you shot is going to be (what ever your definition of precise is). If you are shooting a deer if you don't hit the "exact" spot you are aiming/focusing at but are an inch off, is that a miss? What distance are we talking 5yds, 20yds, 40yds. What are we really defining here as hitting what our target is? DANNY
I don't know who started this myth that BAH is synonymous with shooting for center body mass but for me BAH is all about picking a spot...a very tiny spot...the smaller the better meanwhile?...all this talk about burning holes got me all excited again so I drug out my Hawk and 3 maples...2 fletched/1 bare and after a couple ends to loosen up and reacquaint myself?...
This last one here is just because I figured you folks would get a kick out of seeing what a well seasoned American Leathers Full Shot Glove looks like. :)
Good shooting as always Jinkster and you are fast at aiming :^) ie. Pointing a weapon at a target. See definition. Not a gapper though. How are you feeling? Good to see you flinging arrows and very well at that. >>>----> Ken
Folks get their egos all pumped up and think they are Pentecostal preachers, talking down to the wayward congregation, from the podium that they proudly are perched on.
You bet, and you aimed after you drew the Bow, or during, or before?
Short drawing City and TP jitter a comin on amen Dean?
You bet Ken, you da man! Do you even have to aim, maybe you just direct that arrow where you want it to go?
Guess I will go shoot a few arrows and take a picture Jinks, just compare my aimed arrows to you Burned in ones? Hey glad you are feeling better and nice of Ken to ask you.
Chris, hope you learned something here that will keep you from bad habits but if you are gifted with magical powers to aim even before you shoot? I say go for it!
By the way, at my age, I am lucky to have learned from some of the best archers in the world.
Count myself very fortunate and blessed to know what I do and hope to keep learning. Sammo >>>>-------->
Eye hand coordination is simply what the eye is focused on, the hand will point at.
If your concentration is intense "burning a hole" everything around the spot you're focused on will become blurry and fade so the focus point becomes more clear.
Shooting demonstrations is something I did for years. Part of which was shooting targets in the air. Intense concentration on the object is the only way to make consistent hits. There's no time for checking string alinement.
I have made shots on running game when I'm "Locked on" everything seems to slow down...almost in slow motion. NOTHING is clear except the spot focused on. If you ever experience this you will understand and never have to have it explained to you again.
Everbody knows that if you just look at where you're going when you walk, you'll never get there. If you want to actually get where you want to be you have to aim your feet for each step, you have to see them, like gappers see the arrow. Penguins have a hard time seeing their feet when they walk, they just look where they are going. That's why so many of them wind up in Antarctica.
Yes and that is why we look first and do so riding a motorcycle through a curve.
We ride through them do not become distracted off the line.
Exactly why we look at a spot and focus on it, then draw the Bow and using alignment as Rick said, we aim or point the Bow directly at the spot we want to hit.
The Human brain is an amazing computer to enable us to use eye/hand coordination with our brain giving the impulses to make all the things happen to finally line up and point a Bow at something.
Hey Bob, been a good thread and lots of great posts, thank you all and hunting is calling me to the woods,,good luck no matter what your opinion is,,all archers and Bowhunter fraternity.
I don't see the issue. "Burning a hole into it" means what we call today "tunnel vision". If practiced enough the hand will automatically point where the eye has clear focus, subconsously with peripherial vision "aim" it. One aspect I think get's lost, is that you are not just looking at the spot, but "boring through it" to the other side. Just as in martial arts, teaching someone not to punch the board, but "punch through it".
I don't know about all of this. When i bore a hole, my secondary vision gets clearer. If my eyes are jumping around my secondary aim is jumping all around. My secondary aim is always there, it is most often automatic and it is fast. Perhaps, The mind is playing tricks on those that cannot complete a shot when doing it, or even for those than can complete a shot when boring a hole with their eyeballs. All of the action is in the last six inches of draw for me, I am not changing anything.
2. I do not care if my hips are aligned with target. If they are it is easier for me, and if not then I twist until my bow arm shoulder aligns with target.
3. I look at a small point on the target and keep my eyes there
4. Bow arms starts moving up
5. In the same time but faster string arm starts moving back towards anchor
6. Once I reach anchor points, 3 under middle finger at mouth corner - cock feather touching nose - thumb nickle under cheek bone
7. My eyes on target all the time. The brain helps bow arm into final position. I do not look at arrow tip.
8. I release arrow while looking at the same target spot, holding bow arm steady
No aiming using reference points takes place. I can hit a 9 inches plate up to 40 yards most times.
Probably doesn't have anything to do with your OP, (maybe it does--I don't know) but I'm curious. In your LEO training, when shooting a pistol, were you trained to keep your focus on the mark and see your sights in the periphery, or were you taught to keep your sights in focus and keep the mark in your periphery?
I liked discussing this method of burning holes but it gets people all torn up and mad. Then I get complaints filed on me because I questioned the method for discussion and it becomes a problem.
My discussing this is so others can see what is really happening, not to get a tribal thing going.
The "burning a hole" thing seems to just be focused concentration on something you are going to shoot at.
The discussion of archery sequence is actually something that everybody already has and may not be aware of the concept.
At the baseline, awareness of how we really shoot offers up some discussion that may actually help us all improve.
For those who do not like the topic? No need to think you are being personally challenged to defend the way you shoot.
If you are happy calling your method the hokey pokey or some other name, it is not a reason to become tribal defending it.
This is the OP. This is just a breakdown of the method. We all "point" and focus on spot to hit something pointing at it. Nothing to become defensive about.
Just an opening to discuss the method of burning a hole so others can speak to their experience. Nothing degrading or insulting, yet others have taken offense.
"We have eye/hand coordination and that allows us to point something. We point a Bow at a target using the bow hand and the arrow. We make consistency by the triangle and a system called form.
The eye and the rear anchor point are two references of the initial pointing of the arrow with the front hand and the arrow all aimed (pointed) at the center of the target.
If you concentrate on alignment, your chances of hitting the center go up in percentage.
The burning a hole crowd say they do it all by instinct which is incorrect. They are putting all the things together and using references to aim at something by Pointing."
Sam, Probably doesn't have anything to do with your OP, (maybe it does- -I don't know) but I'm curious. In your LEO training, when shooting a pistol, were you trained to keep your focus on the mark and see your sights in the periphery, or were you taught to keep your sights in focus and keep the mark in your periphery?
Hey Jim, we had the focus on the front sight and the Target was blurred.
In archery when I aim, The focus ins the center of the target. I shoot split vision and am aware of the arrow and how it relates to the target in my periphery. My main focus is the target.
If I shoot with sights on a rifle or compound, my primary focus is on the front sight or sight pins and the target is secondary.
I think the difference is that I am not using a sight per say and my focus is on the target.
If I was stringwalking using the arrow tip would be my front sight and I would likely be squeenching my non dominant eye so it could focus on the arrow tip and not the target.
If you focus both eyes at the target you will get two arrow tips. If you focus your eyes on the arrow tip, you get two targets. If you focus both eyes at the butt of the cute girl at the Quick Trip, your wife will burn a hole through the back of your head. Every one sees the arrow, especially those with high anchors and three under shooters. Playing games with your eyes should not mess you up and it won't make you go blind. I do know this, I do not have a dominant eye, when I look at my arrow point directly and, as example, I am shooting left handed and I am curious about my draw length and look at my arrow, my right eye can see the arrow from its angle better and it takes over the shot, I will shoot a little high and to the right about the same amount as if I were to place the target between the arrow point that each eye sees. In simpler terms, I would end up with seeing the left eye arrow to the right of the secondary which lines to the target and the right eye seeing the arrow tip a bit down and to the left of the secondary. It is possible to horribly mechanical with a secondary aim, but that is not going work so good when taking off position shots or shots that need to be taken fairly fast. Over 50 years of following what Hill wrote, for me, when shooting at Hill tempo, acknowledgement of the secondary gets me in the ball park and that bored hole closes the deal. If I miss, I can remember what needs to change with my aim, provided I did everything else correctly in the process. I still maintain that everyone sees the arrow, the only way you cannot see the arrow is if you are shooting in pitch black darkness.
We once did testing in shooting in such dark conditions that the arrow could not be seen, shooting at a pin prick in match box with a lighted sight pin in it. It started when a good shooter declared that if he just a spec of light to shoot in the dark that he could shoot as tight of groups that i had just shot with a 296 on a PAA target with my target bow. That quonset only had one light source, the front door, covered it with tightly taped cardboard. He sprayed arrows all over the target wall. None of did any better. Add a tunnel of light over the shoulder from a flashlight with the big single battery that was pretty on its last leg, gave enough of a light tunnel that we could all shoot fairly tight at the pin prick of light. The difference? Just enough light to see the arrow and still dark enough for the shooter's eyes to not be distracted. Now if I could fix my focus as firmly at a target as I can on certain other things that get me in trouble, maybe I could be a purely instinctive shooter.
Dean, I shoot with both eyes open with a Bow and the arrow is in the periphery. I do not see two arrows and not two targets, I see only the spot I am aiming at.
If you have two working eyes you see two arrows. Point your finger at something, I bet you have two fingers as well. No one has that narrow of tunnel vision. It is physically impossible, you are only paying attention to the one arrow, but the other one is there. some have said that Howard Hill aimed with his left eye, that is not possible either, because the angle of separation is too great if sighting with the left eye and shooting right handed. I don't buy the Hill head position argument at all, my head position is very similar and it puts the left eye arrow 15 feet below and right of the mark at 30 yards. Whether shooting left hand or right hand, for me, it is a matter of which arrow image that I acknowledge. I may be ambidextrous, but other than that, i shoot much the same as any other Hill style shooter. Too warm and windy here today to hunt and i have been in left hand mode for a month so I worked on right hand shooting today, it took me a few arrows to get things together. I finished up shooting alternate left hand and then right hand sets. It is very important, for me, that my left hand tempo and form is the same as my right hand tempo and form.
dean: "If you have two working eyes you see two arrows. Point your finger at something, I bet you have two fingers as well. No one has that narrow of tunnel vision. It is physically impossible..."
Nothing mental for me dean. My vision has a dominant eye which is the right eye and I shoot with both eyes open without a sight. If I put a sight on my Bow I will almost close my left one as I aim.
Same thing with guns unless I am shooting CQB I just shoot over the top of the pistol for quick hits like I do a Bow.
If I am qualifying with a pistol as I do once a year for CC, I use the sights and slightly close the left eye.
Good morning Gentlemen...and as I sit here reading with my first cup of coffee?...I can't help but chuckle as I realize that for both Sam & dean to offer up the responses they did in the last volley of postings?....it required them to...
"Think About It"
which in turn means that when they are actually doing it (and not just talking about it)?...that these things they do...in their purist form...originally came too them both....
"INSTINCTIVELY"
Sams mind knew that when he shot without a sight?...that both eyes need to be open and his mind knew that long before his eyes ever read anything on the internet because the internet did not yet exist when Sams mind already knew this.
I do occasionally "burn holes" though, in my underwear after eating a massive bean burrito with green sauce and my favorite thing to splat on my food, Louisiana hot sauce. Boooom!
Sam, you continue to insist reference points are being used by those that "burn a hole', concentrate, or call it what you wish, but respectfully, reference points are not being used. Compare it to throwing a baseball. Bottom line is, when you "aim" a baseball, you miss.
Jinx I am being objective. Under 30 yards most would call what I do instinctive, but yet, I know where my arrow was in relation to the shot, so I call it automatic. Over 30 yards, at least left handed, I need to get a bit more mechanical, just a bit. My point being, the one eye does not go blind when secondary aiming, it is still functioning. That is why some people shoot better 3 under, it takes away the confusion by getting the arrow up, even though some three under guys claim they see no arrow. Hill always said the secondary point of aim was 'imaginary'. I also went on to explain that one can not get to mechanical or fundamental, when hunting like a target shooter. For myself, if I so much as quickly glance directly at the arrow, I will end with a secondary image of an arrow on each side of my 'imaginary' aiming point. In other words, my focus splits the difference and if I am shooting left handed, I tend to hit left, and if I am shooting right handed, I tend to hit right. That mental snapshot of the position of things when i release lets me know that i just screwed up. Sam just likes to argue, so he is being stubborn. Funny thing, the good ole 58" and 60" basic instinctively shot recurves killed deer in the 60s and they are still doing it today. Some people are better off not knowing exactly what they are doing to finite details. While others are more OCD and want to have a complete grasp of every detail. Neither is wrong.
dean...both eyes must be open for purposes of depth perception and so the mind can triangulate distance...here's a little test....
1. Sitting at your kitchen table place a dime far enough away that you'd have to lean forward a bit to touch it then?...
2. sit back and close your eyes and then?...
3. open just one eye a reach out an touch that dime with your index finger as quickly as you can.
did you accurately touch the dime dead center quickly or?...fall short?
I have a low anchor so even when I do shoot my CH and BB rig 3under?...my arrow point is still a good 3' below my target at 20yds so I pay the point little attention other than making sure the front of my arrow is aliogned with the rear of my arrow and both are in line with the spot but this adresses "The Windage" plane only while elevation is addressed in a more intuitive fashion.
Jumping in here a little late, but Rick Barbee (towards the top) explains my exact method of aiming. I actually call it pre- aiming, since I'm already focused on my target and then bring the bow into the picture. And yes I am aware of the arrow in my peripheral vision, but I do not intentionally look at it. I let my secondary (peripheral) vision and subconscious let me know that I am not about to send an arrow off on a dangerous flight path.
We have eye/hand coordination and that allows us to point something. We point a Bow at a target using the bow hand and the arrow. We make consistency by the triangle and a system called form.
The eye and the rear anchor point are two references of the initial pointing of the arrow with the front hand and the arrow all aimed (pointed) at the center of the target.
If you concentrate on alignment, your chances of hitting the center go up in percentage.
The burning a hole crowd say they do it all by instinct which is incorrect. They are putting all the things together and using references to aim at something by Pointing.
By the way, 10 inch groups at 15 yards are very bad and unacceptable for hunting anything except scattering rats. Horrible shooting and bad results. If you are advertising, which you are, that is a very bad way to do it.
So in essence, Burning a hole to aim is fine. Burning a hole as a method of form to shoot a Bow is bad.
You see the spot, then use a structured sequence to get to the aiming segment in the sequence, then you can burn a hole.I just say, "I focus on the spot and then find the center of that spot and then hit that!"
Like Byron Ferguson says, "The center of an aspirin is the same size as the center of a beach ball, you aim at the center of the center".
NOT about instinctive shooting at all but to those who associate it with Instinctive, seem to be those who argue that burning a hole is their method of shooting! Burning a hole is an aiming method, not a shooting method! Bingo, gotchya!
Are you arguing with yourself Sam? Or just trying to figure it out for yourself/ You lost me with yourself double speak logic, so i will leave this and go back to my real stuff.
How it REALLY was way back when... I'm always seeing these heavy Vs light, penetration, FOC, KE topics popping up all the time and usually end up as warmly debated or sometimes real flame thrower material. Well...I have been shooting a competition recurve and hunting with a recurve since the mid 50,s, yea, that's a really long time so I have a pretty good idea what works and what was used and discussed back in the "golden years" of now called trad archery. Back then most everybody hunting with either cedar, glass or soft, bendy Easton aluminum's. Most used metal shafts as PO cedar was fast falling by the wayside and some used the heavy glass shafts. Most fletched there own and not many did the fancy arrows you see nowadays, just glue on some 5" feathers and go shoot. Most archers were NFAA target archers who hunted, not the other way around. Most in my neck of the woods used sights and bow quivers on recurves. Back quivers were seldom seen. H Hill made pretty cool poor quality archery shorts seen between movies at the local theatre, he was no icon, just a guy who could shoot well and did in a lot of exotic critters. NOBODY talked about how close they got to a deer or elk, most talked about how long the shot was with pride, remember, these guys were most all target shooters and COULD make the long shots and did, sure, some animals were lost but that was part of archery period. Most people have no idea how well many archers could shoot then they would roll on the ground cracking up over this "point blank stuff" so popular today. Funny nobody discussed penetration problems and most hunted with rather fat arrows two bladed broadheads and 45 to 55 lb bows, nobody I ran into thought it took over 55 lbs to kill anything in this country, tree stands? Never heard of them, Camo? never saw any unless somebody had some old USMC camo's they used. FOC, KE? never heard of that tech stuff, just go stick an arrow in the critter with a sharp broadhead and it's yours shortly. Longbows? never saw anybody hunt with them, only time anybody saw one was at an HH film short or an Erol Flynn Robin Hood movie, guess they were around but never saw anyone shoot or hunt with one, why would they want to when you could get a good Pearson or Bear recurve at K Mart pretty cheap. I could go on forever on this old stuff but this is enough for now. Just use a sharp point, shoot well and don't worry about the slide rule stuff, critters are no tougher now than they were then"...warf Bob Gordon
Oh yeh, well Border bows are wobble bows and I can't help you guys are arrow blind. My point on is 54 yards with 540 grain arrows out of my 55 pound 'sunset', if I get a shot at a 54 yard sleeping buck I am pulling a Hill and lobbing a long one tomorrow.
Good luck dean, love them Sunset Hills,,so good and in fairness since Jinks is posting up on those things, would not trade a Sunset Hill or a Mitchel or a Good Morningstar for a truck load of those super curves,,,admittedly, I am biased. lol
In the end, it is really just what you want to do and if you enjoy it, that is what matters. Ethically I go, legally I am.
