I see the Tab vs, Glove threads all the time. If you want the cleanest release, use a Tab. I personally do not use one. I like a glove for hunting, right there, ready, hooks the string with no fumbling. Target and 3D all the time, would use a Tab.

Risers? I have used and shot most of the 17's, to short for me to shoot stable. I have a 28- inch draw. The 19-inch risers are a good compromise if you need a 60-inch bow? That is the only advantage over a 21. I do not like short limbs and prefer a 21-inch riser. I like a longer Bow and shoot longs. This is a 66-inch Recurve and I can shoot it sitting down by raising to my knees or from a hunting seat. I think the Black Bear riser is the best there is for everything. It is a middle of the road Riser with a 17-degree angle and deflexed handle section.

Bow length is very subjective. If you shoot a shorty, you will give up stability and speed, overall performance in ILF setups.

I like Hill style Longbows and the new breed of longbows that are out with a D shape basic very quiet smooth thump at release.

Java Man has one out that is like the Century 21 70 inch Bow that Calvin Smock won the Eagle Eye with and everything else in his path over the years. The design is fluid, very stable and reasonably fast. For me though, I like the stability of a Hill D shape but prefer a semi pistol grip on my Longbows.

I personally think people are hung up on the Hill straight grip and like the locator type grip. I see no issue if they are used to the Hill grip but think the repeatability of a locator type grip is superior.

I know there is a following of a 60 Bow and very much like the Bear Bows that everyone likes but just like a longer Bow. Good Sunday to everyone and to the Creator for this day.

A tab doesn't provide a cleaner release in and of itself. Although it MIGHT make it easier for folks who don't understand what a release is, and have no one to show them, to execute it. So a person needs to use what they feel comfortable with.

There is no advantage in the stability of the Hill style bow contrary to the beleife of amny. If the Hill style bow were more stable when shot quickly and out of position, it would be even more stable when shot slowly and deliberately as in a target environment. That doesn't happen. There's too much hocus pocus foolishness around the "Hill" style bow and shooting it.

I too prefer a pitol grip or semi pistol grip on a ll bows, or a at least a more rounded grip, so that the bow can naturlly find it's way in to the draw/force line in my hand. I personally beleive that Howard Hill placed the ridge of the grip on his personal bows in the correct line with the string and limbs so that when he picked up the bow, it was in the proper place. But that's another subject.

The Bear Black Bear in one of my all time favorite risers. I don't use it for ILF/WARF naymore, but that doesn't cancel any of it's positive attributes.

Torsional stability is an attribute of the Hill style limb design.

Sam -

99.9% of people here don't understand what torsional stability is and fewer shoot well enough to exploit it. IOWs apply enough torque and no amount of TS is going to save the shot.

What you're said was true when recurves were in their infancy, in the 1950's +/-, but not any more. Even $90 entry level ILF limbs have as much functional TS as a stacked Hill limb.

fdp -

Yes, a tab does inherently provide a cleaner release, but like torsional stability, most trad types don't shoot well enough to exploit the difference. It's just Physics.

Viper out.

Viper...that opinion on the tab is not a definite. The fact is that people can, and do drag one finger or the other, pluck the string, etc. using a tab just as often as they do with a glove. As I stated, each person should you use what is the most comfortable to them.

Could be that torsional stability is an attribute of the limb design. But the fact reamins that if the torsional stability is superior while being shot in one style and method, that same torsional stability would exist, and be superior, when being shot in another style and method. And no, Howard's shots don't prove that is superior when consider that there have been a number of archers over the years who have shot other types of bows that were as agood, or better shots then Howard. The Wilhelms. and Stacy Groscup to just name some. I'm a fan of Hill bows as well. And I am infact planning out a an all natural materials bow based on dimensions of one of Haowards actual bows. But some of the supposed advantage of the Hill style bow is bunk.

There is no magic in the Hill style, and I don't buy that they are any more stable than other designs. Now I'm speaking of my experience, not something I heard...so I can only speak to that experience and it may vary from yours.

A Hill bow can be shot accurately with a loose grip and target form. Been there done that. I also shot my old lemonwood..string follow bow that way with good success. And I shoot deflex/reflex bows the same way. So we can talk all day about Hill style bows and their simplicity or difficulty, torsional stability, yada..yada, but it doesn't make them into anything but another bow. By the way, I like them as well, I just don't see a distinct degree of difficulty with them, nor any other anomaly.

I will put up a picture of my Ufinish Hill with a recurve type grip. I did a slow sloping grip to tun the lifeline a little deeper for the center point pivot.

The TS on the hill keeps the limbs stable in the Horizontal plane. The string may twist a dab in the nocks but not much in my experience.

To test this; draw a Hill and twist it sideways, then do the same with a recurve to see the difference.

A loose hand as George describes is the cure for torque, which the Hill Bow design is very easy to do, to have, to inflict since it is so lite and many grip it too much.

A recurve must be shot with a loose grip too, in my opinion, and if a person has the correct grip down pat, will transfer to all Bows no matter the make.

fdp -

It's not an opinion, it's a fact. I'm not talking about shooter error, I'm talking about the mechanics of the tab vs. a glove on human fingers. Like I tried to say, whether that difference can be realized depends on the skill of the shooter and the demands on his shooting.

Sam -

You're absolutely right, again. The disparity comes in when we compare the TS of a stacked Hill limb (which is substantial) to a modern laminated recurve limb. First comparison would be with a force transducer measuring the amount of torque required to elicit a certain amount of deflection and second, would be how much of a difference would that make to the shot in A. a shooting machine and B. human hands.

As much as it pains me to say it, there is something magical about the feel of a Hill long bow during the shot cycle. The draw is smooth and the thump on shock is, well, reassuring. As far as were the arrows go, may be another story and that's where the TS comes in. Any bowyer can put TS through the roof, but doing so while maintaining performance is what gets tricky. Happily, the newer stuff has that.

BTW - I prefer a locator grip on my Hills. A fuller pistol might be more comfy, but just doesn't seem right ;^)

Viper out.

I like a locator on my Hills because; I do not want to have one type of Bow that is grip specific!

I like the gradual slope to maintain the feel across the board, which translates into shooting all my Bows with the same repeatable grip.

I shoot them all the same way, loosely gripped, only index and thumb wrapped around, and with the other Bow hand fingers loose or tucked under.

I want virtually the same feel.

The so-called "Hill Mindset" is to grip it like a "Suitcase handle, with the pinky and ring finger exerting some pressure, and with the heel down".

I may shoot heel down but with an even tension throughout the lifeline on the edge down.

I want to shoot on the inside of the lifeline on every Bow. More hand into the handle on any Bow will have torque inputs.

A simple question? Not that I disagree with most of what is said and maybe it makes no difference shooting. Why can I grab any of my bows by the recurve,custom and otherwise,and twist them substantially. You can grab the string and push the tips back and forth a considerable amount. Not so with the hill bows. Isn't that what torsion stability is? The lighter the draw weight the more you can move them,like when you correct a twisted limb. When you see how much they move it will make you think about a relaxed hand and not torquing them when you shoot. >>>----> Ken

Sam...I've got some pictures of Dick Palmers bows. He prefers a different type of grip on his ASL's as well. I can't get the pictures to load, but I would be more than happy to email them to you if you PM me your email.

FDP, have two 7 lakes ufinish bows. Had them made with a 2.25 handle section and have good long grips on the one I have done. Mike will build it how you want it for enough material to work a grip like you want.

I agree 2bears on the TS and the Hill Bow, or any hill design.

Sam I am at the stage where I can only get good repeatable form on a Hill Style bow if it has a very mild locater. As I am reshaping some of mine now I would be most interested in that Dick Palmer grip you were referring to, please post a pic !

Well Shaftcaster, I can't get a dang picture to load this evening. Same deal as Sam though, PM me your email and I'll send them to you.

If I shoot a tab I get more arm slap with the string, shooting with an old sloppy neet leather glove, less slap... I shoot a glove.

I intentionally torque my bows to bring the string inline with the arrow so it is driving it to the target and not into the bow. The arrow doesn't give a sh*t what you do to the bow, it wants to go in a straight line to the target :)

Complete BS Hal!

Sam...what Hal says isn't B.S.. An arrow travels in a STRAIGHT line to where ever it's pointed. Determined by line that runs from the string, through the arrow. What he is describing is shooting in the draw/force line of the bow. Most really good archers do that. They may not torque the bow, they may instead keep the grip loose, so that as the bow is drawn, it rotates slightly to maintain the draw/force line. Archers start having trouble when they don't let the bow do that. THAT is what "torqueing" a shot means.

Arrows only bend because they are receiving a sudden burst of energy from the string, and the string is rolling off our fingers. As soon as they go through the first bend. Even as they are bending, they are traveling in the draw/force line of the bow. They have no choice. They don't get pushed left, and they don't get pushed right, unless they are wildly over, or under spined. If they did either of those things, they would be traveling at an angle that is getting ever further away from the target as the arrow travels away from the bow. That doesn't happen

And the spine of the arrow has exactly -0- to do with the arrow starting out on the proper rotation. The rotation of the arrow is a product of air flowing over the feathers as it moves forward. As I've stated before, the vast majority of the time that an archer gets "arrow slap" is because he is torquing the bow into the arrow.

A proper line means that you are shooting in the draw force line of the bow. Proper gripis whatever proper grip is on a bow. Particularly on bows with wooden riser. There is more hand work done on a wooden riser than on any other part of the bow. ANd simply because every bowyer is different, and every hand is different, the spot where you think you should hold the bow may, or may not be lined up correctly to put your hand in the proper postion. That's why for eons archers have stated to hold the bow with a loose grip. If you don't, the bow can't do what it needs to do.

Bob Wesley who is a dedicated longbow guy, teaches students in his class to shoot the same way. He puts a dot on their bowhand, and a dot on the bow. When the 2 are aligned, the student is shooting in the draw /force line.

The stiffest arrow that you can shoot from any bow, is also going to be the most accurate, and the fastest. Simply because the arrow settles in to the draw force line quicker then an arrow that has to go through 2 or 3 additioanal oscillations as it heads to the target.

A bow is nothing more than a tool. And the way that it works, and applies energy to an arrow is amaxingly simple.

Archers over complicate it.

Liquid Tension... I threw out all the crap you guys believe out the window after I had lunch with Jim Ploen :)

FDP, Excellent, educational, article. I read every thing I can get my hands on and that is the best in sometime. I need to commit it to memory. Thanks. >>>----> Ken

World class archers shoot tabs almost exclusively. Has to be something to it.That being said i like a glove.It is just more comfy for me ,and i shoot it the same as a tab.Will never be a world class shooter so that is my choice.

Aligning The Arrow With "Jimmer, The Old Pro"

"The stiffest arrow that you can shoot from any bow, is also going to be the most accurate, and the fastest. Simply because the arrow settles in to the draw force line quicker then an arrow that has to go through 2 or 3 additioanal oscillations as it heads to the target."fdp quote

Complete and total untruth! What is so amazing id that people here actually are buying it!

The most "accurate arrow", is the one with the proper deflection to match the Bow!

I cannot believe that fdp is trying to convince everyone to shoot arrows that are too stiff out of their Bows!

So are we to believe that there should only be on arrow spine?

The knowledge base of some is spun up in their heads from somewhere other than truth.

So I am thinking Hal and fdp are shooting 2219's in everything? lol

Those of us who want a slightly weak arrow bareshafted so it will be very exact when we glue up feathers are just wasting our time.

Forget tuning, just buy a 2219 for our 40 pound bows. lol

Shall we start a thread about understanding deflection? Think we need one.

If your arrows are too lightly or heavily spined for your bow, the “archer's paradox” movements will be extreme, resulting in poor arrow flight and loss of accuracy.

The stiffest arrow that works with your bow. Not the stiffest arrow possible. If you shoot a shaft with O flex with a high or low nocking point it will try to flip end for end. If you have two shafts close to ideal for the bow the stiffest one will quit flexing quicker and be more accurate. Spine and rotation are two entirely different things. TOO stiff is bad, the same as TOO weak. FDP wrote a very informative article. I don't believe he meant the stiffest arrow possible but the stiffest that tunes right. We are all pretty much on the same page except for semantics. We all benefit from discussion but not from accusations. It is all good my friends. >>>----> ken

No "semantics", only truth!

No need to go there Ken. I know there are buddies here that defend each other but to say that an arrow that is on the stiff side is the best option only applies to Bows that are very closely cit to center shot.

Stiff arrows shot from a Bow that has a past center shot adjustment can usually take a stick on rest or shelf that will take a stiffer arrow.

Bows like the Hill that are cut outward of center simply are not in the stiffer arrow category like those that can be adjusted to have the arrow just a little outboard of the string.

On Bows like a hill, a stiff arrow can be shot by leaning the bow wayyyy over in a radical cant and have the arrow shoot high and inline but straight entry into an animal with a broadhead is not gonna happen unless we are at crossbow horizontal position.

The arrow will actually NEED TO MAKE THE PROPER S PATH past the riser on bows cut outward of centershot if held anywhere close to vertically!

That is a fact, and arrows that are on the stiff side will NOT have a straight flight and NOT have a good straight entry into an Animal and that Stiff reaction (shooting to the left) will impede penetration!

On a Bow cut past centershot, the horizontal arrow adjust will allow for a broader range of arrows spines to have good flight due to the linear position of the arrow with the dynamic power stroke of the string on the back of the arrow being more even along the entire length of the arrow.

That linear position will bring the arrows nodes closer together and limit the amount it bends and the inputs of paradox.

Saying that a stiffer arrow will have a good flight in a Bow cut outward of centershot is Bologna!

I just hate to see the most knowledgeable folks on here at odds with one another. Especially to the point of calling each other a liar. We all learn from you guys and each other. The subject ran from spine,to torsional stability, to tabs. It gets confusing. Sadly some quit the discussion and even worse leave the wall. I have Howard Hill bows, recurves cut past center,and Turkish Horse bows with no shelf or sight window. A shaft TOO STIFF will try to fly sideways and needs a lot of feather to drag it back in line. A shaft TOO WEAK will continue to flex longer. Both will cut penetration drastically compared to a shaft that hits exactly point on. Especially at close range. I have a pretty good handle on tuning different bows. When it comes to limb pad angles,warfing,or machining for ILF fittings.I don't have a clue. I hope that don't mean I am stupid,but just uninformed. The goal should be good flight, point on impact,where we are looking. When I achieve that,I don't care what the spine is,except to get more shafts like them. Shoot straight. >>>----> Ken

Jeff Durnell built me a beautiful selfbow which I used to take a whitetail with one of the most devastating shots I have made on an animal. Upon receiving the bow and shooting it the arrows hit way left as the bow was 7/16ths out from center and the arrows were too stiff, which from now on we will call Sam's Law :)

Then there was a disturbance in the force, I had lunch with Jim Ploen. 3rd person in history to shoot a perfect score indoors in competition in the 60's and 2 time indoor world champion. Once shot a perfect 300 in competition using a nail as a rest to prove a point.

We were in a restaurant in Iowa City and he brought his demo bow right in with him :) Jim told to me many things about archery and a bow that went against common belief. He proceeded to show and explain deeper truths about archery that most don't even know exist. Needless to say I bought his lunch.

Upon returning home, I got the selfbow out with the same overspined arrows, made the adjustment in the grip and the arrows flew straight and right to the mark, I was amazed. Coaching JOAD kids and when they are struggling (with everything else seemingly good) I go right to the grip and make sure that they are holding the bow in such a way the string is driving the arrow to the target and not left or right. This is important in bows cut past center, as well. How /where you place your hand in the grip determines string alignment/direction and regardless of the degree of center shot, or lack thereof, for optimum arrow flight and efficiency the string should be driving the arrow in a straight line to its intended mark.

I have told the story on here a few times that a friend was having a bad season, so I stopped by and looked at his setup. He had rasped the grip a little to much on the left side and by doing so rolled the string to the right. When he shot the string was driving the arrow to the right side of the riser!! Quick fix was to put the hand much deeper into the grip which straightened the arrow flight right up. 3 days later made a good shot on a nice buck which is now hanging on his wall.

I stand behind what I say and know it is truth as I have experienced it first hand and shared to me by a legend named Jim Ploen.

Oh... and this why the stiffest arrow you can shoot is the most accurate, when you understand how the draw force line works and are within it, you are not bending the arrow around the bow, therefore the flex of the shaft is negated to a large degree. I think many shooting Hill Style Bows are naturally in the draw force line and why they are able to shooting many different spined arrows out of the same bow. I have heard many old timers say they prefer their longbows 1/4 to 5/16 out from center, now I know why.

I do not mean anyone is "stupid" here 2bears. I am just discussing different points of view as they relate to facts and not BS. I know about limb angles on warfs but that is not my only interest, especially tuning a Bow for good flight and clean penetration on animals.

Anytime there is some disagreement does not mean people should get butthurt. lol

Told this theory to a local guy who won the NFAA Indoors, who turned Pro after -- the importance to hand/grip placement and its effect on the shot. He smiled and said he can paper tune his compound, get perfect bullet holes, then be off ever so slightly in the grip and start getting tears. String deflection/alignment related to hand/grip position... the draw force line. Jim Ploen is an absolute genius.

Told this theory to Lee of Little Crow Bows at the big Iowa Trad gathering, he thought "yeah right" A year later I called him to see if he was coming to the Iowa Trad gathering... he said, guess who I have been hanging with, I said Jim Ploen, he laughed and said how did you know. I said you both are up in Minnesota by Minneapolis, it was your destiny. I then asked him if he now understood the draw force line. He said yes and sometimes it is the slightest adjustment in the grip to achieve it. Says it makes a bow much more forgiving to shoot.

sorry Sam, it is real and it exists

I have used both, glove and tab and on rare occasion bare fingers or a brown "jersy glove" LOL

Those rare occasion's were/when I forgot or lost my glove or tab. Of course I may be the only hunter to have committed this cardinal sin. LOL

This said, to me, the biggest difference between a glove or tab is nothing technical, just a personal preference.

I enjoyed my glove in fact I started with one, then moved to a hair tab and never looked back.

That glove and tab were in my camper in my "deer gear box" until some low life broke into my camper a few years back and stole my box. I had things in the box from back in the late 60's and early 70's. Some sentimental some just ? I sure do miss that old box, every time I looked into it I recalled a lot of great memories.

The only thing I might add regarding a glove or tab is, the best shooters of a bow I have ever seen (witnessed) either used a tab or a release. This includes Olympic Gold Medalist's, World Title, Gold Medalist, or a few State Champion's. Traditional Bow or Compound.

* this excludes Byron Ferguson

Hal quote,,

LOL, Where is Jim Ploen? He was a great one! I think someone said he shot a 300 off a Bolt?

Nothing but respect for Mr. Ploen

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