Last two or three Mondays I started threads that were related to improvement in form. I could probably do that for a whole year, but hunting season is close. Real close for me 8/15. I'll probably get frustrated way before that. This is one that goes against conventional beliefs, plus I'm betting most never thought of this..

Doesn't make sense to push a debate free button, because I feel the LW is a debate. If you don't like this regimented/form orientated shooting, you don't need to comment.

There's probably other alignments in archery (DUH!), but I'm referring to the drawing arm and bow. If you think about it there's two planes concerned. Left and right plus up and down.

I think the left and right plane is sometimes over looked because it's pretty simple – your elbow should be in line with the arrow. There's a simple explanation for that. When you're in that alignment your at full draw AND you're not holding the full poundage of the bow. The weight is 'relaxing' on the joints of the shoulders/arms. Bone on bone contact. It's more or less being held in place by the muscles.

This is one of the reasons why collapsing happens so often. If you stop in this position, you have to start up your muscles again to get your fingers off the sting. Rick McKinney mentions two ways to get your fingers off the string – drive by, continual movement and stopping at alignment and reengaging the muscles to get off the string. He says the latter is more difficult, but more accurate if performed correctly.

The up and down plane is something I think that may go against conventional belief. At least it goes against what I believed for years. What I was taught. I always thought that the elbow should be in the same plane as the arrow in a 90 degree circle. It KIND OF makes sense, because when you release, you'd think you want to impart energy to the nock in that 90 degree plane. This would make sense if your fingers were as wide as the nock.

The proper positioning of the elbow is a little up from the arrow. There's something called a draw force line. With a proper grip it starts at a spot an inch left of your thumb knuckle (the thumb knuckle nearest the palm) and inch down from the web of your hand between your thumb and first finger. Your elbow should be in line with that spot.

Think about the draw force line. The line is 90 degrees from your elbow to that spot. It's the most efficient way to get in between the string and the bow for bone on bone contact.

Bowmania

The rotational draw as explained by both Blackmon and Arne Moe is the best method to bring the bowstring to the rear.

They have videos on youtube.

Your back should do most of the work and if done correctly is far superior to any other method to prevent shoulder injury from long- term use.

Would like to ask George Stout to embed them if he see's this.

There is no debate, only constructive discussions.

I wasted my time for years debating instinctive shooting and was finally convinced that it is real.

Ask me how I was convinced and I will tell you I bought a motorcycle.

Ask me how that convinced me and I will tell you this one thing;

"Where you are looking is where the motorcycle will go!"

"Bone on bone" for me makes sense just when the ligaments / tendons / sinews (whatever you want to name them) are doing the work under contraction and extension, NOT THE MUSCLES. Based on my experience if I don't want to collapse at full draw I don't use my muscles, I use my sinews to hold the bow. The entire alignment or plans or whatever is result of the above concept that can be accepted or not.

What !

"I don't use my muscles, I use my sinews to hold the bow.

Easy Phil, think first and you will get it. Wrist and elbow for example are kept in line not using biceps

I'm sorry you've lost me.

Muscles align the bones. https://youtu.be/6c8_-96h6BY

Some people you don't argue with. Send them to google and let them argue over there.

"Skeletal muscles only pull in one direction. For this reason they always come in pairs. When one muscle in a pair contracts, to bend a joint for example, its counterpart then contracts and pulls in the opposite direction to straighten the joint out again. Without this arrangement you wouldn't be able to straighten your legs when you walk or bend your fingers to grip something. When your biceps muscle in your upper arm contracts, it pulls your lower arm in towards your shoulder. However, when it relaxes, your biceps cannot push your arm back out. To do this, your triceps muscle, on the underside of your upper arm, contracts and straightens your arm out. If your triceps muscle wasn't there, your arm would stay drawn in permanently."

I think a shorten verson of that is muscles only do one thing and that's contract. They can't even extend. But that's opinion and not much bearing on our discussion.

Maybe you don't get this if you push the no debate button?

I was asked in a PM to show in a video what I tried to explain. I'm technically challenged so I'd need someone to hold my phone to take the video. AND then how to get it on my computer and then I've never post a vid on here... You get the idea. Maybe I could post it from my phone and then I'd end up hating it more than I do now. PHONES ARE FOR TALKING.

Not that my time is valuable, but it takes some time to write these up. More so, that I probably have ADD and get bored easily.

The request is very valid though. KSL in his book explains everything with an incorrect photo and a correct photo.

Soooo, take a look at the cover of Fred Asbel's book "Instinctive Shooting" or the advanced book. Elbow is directly in line with the arrow.

For a correct photo of what I'm describing look at Rick McKinney on the cover of his book. If you go to 3 Rivers and search books they come up almost side by side.

Again technically challenged or I'd cut and paste them.

Bowmania

Bowmania.

I completely agree with your original post only I would use different language because of my background.

I think we agree. I once argued the validity of Instinctive being a real thing.

That was a waste of time also.

Bone on bone and Instinctive shooting is real! lol

I bought a motorcycle and realized that the machine will go where you are looking. If you fixate on one point, that is where you will end up.

A good day here on the LW, like every day!

We are ready for the fall to come and this is the training grounds intellectually.

Draven, I apologize to you on my google post. It was uncalled for. That said when someone points out a mistake, sometimes research is a good idea before responding.

I'm as guilty as the rest on making mistakes, only mine are due to tequila.

Phil would you correct my post to your language?

Sam, I hate motorcycles!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've got two friends that aren't here because of them. Everyone knows my opinion on aiming, so I suspect if they gapped their cycles they'd still be here.

Bowmania

Bowmania, what you're describing in your OP is refereed to in Orthopaedic Biomechanics as joint Congruence. Joint Congruence occurs when the sum of the forces acting across a joint do not produce a bending moment around the axis of the joint. It becomes a little complicated because all the forces generated by individual muscle activity aren't equal, but, produce a zero net rotational effect. This anomaly is caused by joints having motion in more than one plane but the bulk of the range of motion is in a single plane, commonly referred to as the dominant plane of motion..

So Bowmania, what you described in your original post is the vital importance of having skeletal congruency of joints in the dominant plane of motion so as not to produce a rotational moment around the joint ... with this I 100% agree .... sorry about the language, but it was my day job before I retired

You want to see how good your alignment/form is? Put a sight on. It will instantly show your flaws.

KLR 650 single piston adventure bike. I like healthy debate, it is something like learning from others and sifting fat out of my Sketti meat.

I have learned much here and that is the meat left after the drain of fat.

The eyes and hands work together and that translates into the cone of the shot.

The smaller the cone, the closer to center the arrow will strike.

Well, thanks Phil, but I feel a little like Penny when Sheldon explains something to her!!!

Bowmania

My original post is just form, plain and simple. Let's try to bring this around to a teaching moment.

A picture of yourself in the Rick McKinney position, it's pretty simple learning tool for the up and down plane.

THe l and r plane is not so simple. It's easies viewed from above and behind the archer. Then you can see if the elbow is aligned with the center of the riser at the grip.

What does all this mean to getting the arrow in the center of the target? Well, let's assume we have proper up and down aligment and we add bone on bone contact (the l and r) here's a little drill on when to release.

I'll explain it with the thought of not releaseing. When at the proper alignment described above start to expand as far as you can. You have to release sometime between 'proper alignment' and before 'total expansion'.

How far is that? Well it's probably different with everyone, but I don't really think it's mearsurable. The reason being is that it's an internal feeling. If you were watching the elbow, it would move parallel to the face of the target. Defining the 'J' described by the movement of the elbow during the draw from beginning to end.

IF your familiar with the use of the clicker. They say it takes 2mm to get the clicker to go off. If you're watching that end, movement is more pronounced than at the elbow end. Sooooooo, if 2mm is good, 4mm is probably bad. That's not very far. AND that's good, because the smaller it is the sooner you can dump that friggin' arrow and relax.

Once you know the distance (alingment to over expansion) another drill to get off the string is at alignment count to 5. The closer you get to 5 your odds increase for a poor shot. I'd say one is not good either.

Bowmania

People are responsible not the object, I have raced and driven hundreds of thousand of miles on motorcycles in the last 55 years and never had a motorcycle attack me.

It usually is someone not paying attention or the cyclist driving erratically, in other words weaving in and out of traffic, if you are traveling with the flow of traffic and not following too close you won't have a problem.

Sam, you are correct, do not look at the object that you want to miss, look at where you want to go. Sam, if your new to motorcycling PM me if you have any riding questions.

Now that I got off the subject....Ha!Ha!

My elbow and forearm is in line with the arrow vertically, but I have no way of telling if it is in line horzontally, but I do notice when I start shooting bad I either open or close my stance and that is probably what alighns me horizontally without realizing.

I haven't thought about the horizontal alighnment, I will have to pay more attention on that, Thanks Bowmania

This may help visualize what Bowmania is describing. ... remember ... the axis around which the motion takes place is orthogonaly perpendicular to the plane of motion

I shoot with the same sequence and draw that Jimmy Blackmon and Arne teaches. I got into the one string in 1995 and learned from the only thing I had at the time. A video called Instinctive shooting that was done by Paul Brunner.

I killed Deer and Elk and Grouse and everything else I could legally take with my Quillian Patriot Recurve.

Do I shoot better now? I did well shooting the way Brunner taught me then.

I believe Jimmy who was taught by Rod Jenkins, who was taught by Len Cardinale is the best way for me.

It has saved my shoulders and three under shrunk my gaps making it easier and more precise.

The rotational draw is very much worth learning and shooting a reasonable weight for your shoulders will keep your body from injury.

The drawing arm should be relaxed and just a hook and pulley system.

The thing I would do if I were going back in time would be to go to a Blackmon/Jenkins class and learn it the best, from the best.

LOL. Sam we've got a clinic on the books. December 8-9 at Lancaster Archery! Registration to open soon!

Be the best money ever spent on getting better with a bow! Take care Jimmy.

Bowmania, I think your original post has about got it, especially about the vertical alignment of elbow being not to the arrow but the middle of the grip on the bow. The elbow will thus be above the plane of the arrow.

The pressure of the various fingers on the string also affects the elevation of the elbow, but lets save that until after hunting season. For now let the elbow go where it wishes to.

Just pick a spot and urge your subconscious to hit it. Good hunting! - lbg

Here's some simple thoughts I can work with.

First lesson I ever had when a young man with a new Bear bow was how to stand. Another words, consistently. Was taught about the release and picking a small spot a whole lot later. Seems like the instructor thought it was important to start with such things as "This is how you hold your bow and this is how you stand".

Use an arrow on the ground to help with line up. Especially when I haven't shot for a while. Whatever my stance is, good or bad, my goal is to get it consistent. Not too worried about my flying elbow when I first start up again, or how slick my release is, but I do powder up my tab pretty good to get it slick. Just holding and standing.

Balance is part of the benefit to working on a consistent stance, as it can help with those weird shooting positions too. Like those where you hang your big toe on a stake at 3-D and 2-D's. However, a fellow can lean over and practice those too after they get down their holding and standing pretty good.

Here's some simple thoughts I can work with.

First lesson I ever had when a young man with a new Bear bow was how to stand. Another words, consistently. Was taught about the release and picking a small spot a whole lot later. Seems like the instructor thought it was important to start with such things as "This is how you hold your bow and this is how you stand".

Use an arrow on the ground to help with line up. Especially when I haven't shot for a while. Whatever my stance is, good or bad, my goal is to get it consistent. Not too worried about my flying elbow when I first start up again, or how slick my release is, but I do powder up my tab pretty good to get it slick. Just holding and standing.

Balance is part of the benefit to working on a consistent stance, as it can help with those weird shooting positions too. Like those where you hang your big toe on a stake at 3-D and 2-D's. However, a fellow can lean over and practice those too after they get down their holding and standing pretty good.

Jimmy has the real idea. It's exactly as he describes, but I have little tip that may make it easier for some to understand.

Sorry, but you'll have to wait for next Mon or Tuesday's tip.

Bowmania

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