I have a bow that is 50#'s at 28". I like leaving my arrows long, and have some 31" 2016's on hand that I've been using with this bow without an issue.

I decided to finally strip the fletching off of one and bare shaft to see where I'm at for tune.

With the 145 grain points I've been using, I'm getting a right impact with tail left. This should be a weak spine correct?

What I can't comprehend, is that if I reduce point weight to stiffen the spine, the right impact gets worse. Only when I go the other direction and increase tip weight, do I get decent flight.

With a 200 grain point, I can get a center impact at 20 yards, but at 30 I'm starting to plane right again.

I'm not sure which direction to go here. 3rivers spine calculator indicates that these arrows should have been weak which is what I was banking on. But finding that I need to run 200+ grains of tip weight to get decent arrow flight has me a bit confused.

What are your thoughts? I never really had much of a problem using the 145's on fletched shafts.

Thanks.

Forgot to add that my actual draw length is in the 27.5" neighborhood.

(To those that remember be claiming a 29" draw in my Cascade thread, I believe that was over expanded. I've also changed my anchor as I've started to learn how to gap. This has shortened my draw).

Hey Kiev, anything in life can be as complicated as you want it to be.Ive been shooting aluminum arrows for over 50 years and I find it real easy,I guess because I’m old school. First off you’ve got plenty of spine with your setup ,I would cut the arrows to 28 3/4” put on a good 5” fletch,use your 145 grain points and broad heads.After a bit of practice you’ll be busting nocks,then go kill whatever you want.

Are you shooting right handed?

Yes to right handed. I'd like to keep these as long as possible since it helps with the gapping.

Northstickhunter X2: thats what I would Do

but I don't gap

Hummm! You have been using them with no issues and then you went and played with something that wasn’t broke and bare shaft tested. Go figure?

You have not indicated how deep the shelf is cut, If your 1/8"less than center you should be right on with a 125gr. point@31", however if your center cut or past center your weak. I would first check to see that you dominate eye is directly over the arrow and the point is pointed at the vertical line you want to hit. There is certainly something going on here.

Bob

The bow looks to be about 1/8" or so before center, and I have a pretty thick side plate on it.

I do know that my anchor is below my eye line, since that is why I moved my anchor to begin with. On this particular bow, my fletched shafts land slightly left of my point on, and the bare shafts are landing to the right.

Up to this point, I've been able to deal with the slight left impact on the fletched shafts.

On my 45# recurve that is cut 1/8" past center, my fletched shafts land with my point on, but my bare shafts do the same thing, landing far right.

I did just experiment with a piece of tape on my riser and some sharpie marks to determine my gap distance and that worked as well as using the arrow tip, so if cutting these down will help, I'm all for it. That just seems to contradict what I'm seeing with the bare shafts.

I'm absolutely not trying to discount anything that anyone is saying, I just want to be sure when I start cutting shafts and don't want to go the wrong way.

Thanks for all of the help.

Examine the tuning protocol shown here:

http://www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html

Click on "download printable version"

Note that tuning is dependent upon COMPARING point of impact between bare and fletched, not on what one arrow is doing.

None the less, it appears that you are getting a "false weak" indication. That is when an arrow is actually dynamically too stiff upon launch, the nock end of the arrow whacks the riser when it passes by, so for a RH shooter, the nock end is driven left, the end pivots to right, and a "weak" indication is seen.

What is happening with your point weight changes would seem to support this in your case. Tables and charts, and spine caluculators are just starting points. The real world, actual RESULTS are what matters.

In addition to all the the above, if your is actually cut 1/8" before center, then that is a factor.

What Jinm said! If I remember correctly, fletching will have an effect that will "stiffen" the shaft slightly.

I just remeasured including my full strike plate width this time, and got 5/16" before center. Looking at a dynamic spine calculator, that's actually in the ball park with a 200 grain point. Go figure.

175 should be better though, but it still impacts right of where the 200 grain does.

What Bender said.

Putting elevation marks on the bow is illegal for competition and a bad idea for anything else. Your visual focus should not be on the bow but on the target or the arrow tip.

I would not cut the shafts as your eye and mind are used to the sight picture with them long.

I would try some 125 grain points for a while. And I would try lengthening your draw back part way to where it was.

In summary, I think your are chasing too many variables. Your set up should tune with 125 grain points and a full draw. Make it so. - lbg

If

5/16" before center, yup, you were too stiff and getting a false weak. When done right bare shafts don't lie. Trust them.

I believe he said he wanted to leave his arrows long. Maybe another spine?

P.S.-- cutting down one arrow a very small amount at a time will serve to verify your results. My experience is that " false" weaks or "false" stiffs are usually a misinterpretation of other factors such as arrow spine or form. I always come back to Occam's razor when tuning-- in short, the simplest answer is usually correct--- disregard charts and what others believe about your set up and go by to what your bow is telling you. Again, without good form bareshafting will be at best an exercise in frustration.

The first thing I would do is remove the strikeplate and replace it with a piece of masking tape and see what happens. You shouldn't be that far out of spine to get the false readings your getting, something else is amiss.

Bob

Well the first thing I see Clydebow asked.

Second is that you can only tune as well as you can shoot. That's important!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If gapping changed your draw length, you didn't learn to gap. Solve that problem and your arrows will tune much easier. How do you do that? - simple ask you coach.

Bet your coach will tell you this. You're colapsing. Since you didn't know the gap, you had to take the extra time to set the gap, it made your draw shorter.

The proper sequence is anchor, alignment, aim (set the gap) expand (squeeze the trigger). That's a whole 'nother story. You have to pull your fingers off the string - pull, pull harder, you can't pull too hard. RJ

I'm only betting because I can't see your shot. If that's wrong, the best advise is Benders.

Bob above is also on to something. If you can get the arrow to do the opposite you're half way there. I'd do the opposite of Bob though. I'd tap a stick match to the strike plate. Maybe half a stick match.

In any event impacts betweena fletched and bare will give you the least amount of false readings.

Bowmania

Bowmania is clever - quicker to add thickness, and you can get back to where you started faster still, with nothing lost in translation.

Q for the Senseis: Would twisting up the brace height help with the issue that Bender addressed?

GF - that was the tequila in me talking. LOL.

Here's my opinion on twisting. Do the impacts and get them as close as you can. That might be enough. I shoot a lot of bare shaft and if I notice a little nock kick, I'm then put in or take out twists.

I think twisting is for fine tuning not big issues.

Bowmania

With regards to my change in draw length:

I always anchored at the corner of my mouth which put the string to the right of my eye. This caused my arrows to shoot left of where I put the point. All I did was move from the corner of my eye to the tip of my eye tooth, which in turn put the string in front of my pupil. I don't think my draw actually changed 1.5", because I think when I initially measured 29", it was over-expanded on a low poundage bow. I was probably closer to 28, and shortened up to 27.5 with the eye tooth anchor.

With regards to my strike plate:

I originally had a leather plate from a bear rug rest kit, and had the same results. The leather was peeling so I stuck on a furniture pad which I know is probably too thick with this bow. I'm inclined to peel that off and put something thinner on anyway.

Changes in brace height don't seem to do much.

When I say that my bare shafts impact right, that is compared to the fletched shafts.

Thanks.

SUCCESS!

My hat is off to Steve (Northstickhunter). I ended up trimming 1.5" off of these and with a 100 grain point, they are flying like lasers, no question about it.

This is after putting some tape on as a strike plate as well.

Thanks to all who chipped in with advice. I truly appreciate it.

The soft side of a Velcro strip makes a good plate or rest.

Yup! I didn't think you had a false weak. In tuning-- it is what it is.

Northstickhunter pretty much summed up my experience and my practice.

Tin arrows are easy to tune if you start out with a sensible static spine.

Shinkers,,,,when you start tuning, always consider the spine of the arrow you are using, and the centershot measurement of the bow.

2016's spine at 59lbs at 28".. Leaving them 31" long lowers the dynamic spine by 15lbs. or 5lbs. per inch. That made them dynamically 45lbs. The side plate being built out 5/16" from center INCREASED the dynamic spine by nearly 25lbs.. 5lbs. more or less for every 1/16". So, that made the dynamic spine close to 70lbs..

You took off the sidepalte you said and moved the arrows hard up against the sight window. So, you DECREASED the spine by the amount you removed from the sight window. Then, you cut 1/2" off the arrows, which INCREASED the spine by 5'ish pounds. That being the case, unless you cut the arrows AFTER you removed the sideplate and shot a series of arrows, you really haven't determined what worked.

That being said, when you are tuning arrows, hold the bow vertical, and make sure the arrow is lined up from the nock on the string, through the length of the shaft to the pint, to the target. It shold be one straight line from back to front. If you have to hold the point off one way or the other, then it's wrong. I say that because you said the bareshafts were impacting to the RIGHT of the fletched. However, in removing the sidepalte you moved the point of the rro FURTHER to the right in relation to the string.

Aluminum arrows are very spine tolerant. But, if I were you I wouldn't cut anymore of them for a while. Not until you get some type of reliable shooting sequnce and system worked out.

Shinkers, change in anchor can change draw length. But without a change there, alignment governs draw length. YOu state, " it was over-expanded on a low poundage bow." Once you have proper alignment you probably expand 2mm to getyour fingers off the string. So maybe 3 mm is over-expanded. I don't know what an mm is, but it's not very big.

My point is alignment with a light bow is the same as a heavy.

Changing the brace height is for fine tuning. Once you have your impacts to the best of your ability, then watch the flight of a bare shaft. If you have a little kick, it's time for brace hight change. Nock right stiff, put 'em in and nock left take 'em out, if your right handed. I have never used more than 5 turns or unturns.

Are you a hunter? Because I'd like to know what your going to shoot for a broadhead, if your tuned with a 100 grain field point. That really limits your choices and most are not good.

A word of caution, if you ever switch to carbon. When you cut carbon cut a 1/4 inch at a time. Cut an inch and a half and you'll be throwing away arrows or shooting 400 grain tips. Which in my opinion as a hunter is better than 100 grain tips.

Bowmania

Maybe I missed it. Did anyone suggest changing one variable at a time and working slowly?

id Start with the side plate. Find a thinner one and make sure it is t springing the arrow out at release.

Okay, I had the chair pad strike plate on there since my leather one was peeling and I wanted to see if a really thick side plate would get me any sort of change in arrow flight since point weight wasn't doing it.

The chair pad was not really feasible since it is so thick that the arrow is barely on the shelf. It needed to go anyway, and I was just trying to get some sort of change to see if I was going in the right direction. That's why I put the tape on, even though it's actually weakening my spine.

I know that these arrows still flew poorly with the leather plate, so there's no question that cutting them down 1.5" is what did it.

As far as making small changes at a time, I've been doing that for a while trying to figure this mess out before asking on here. My impression was that my shafts were too long and so I cut one to where I thought it should be and I got lucky that it flies well with 100 grain point.

Bowmania, I don't hunt with a bow. I only shoot because it's fun to shoot. That said, if I did want to hunt, these flew fine out to 30 yards with 125 grains which would give me some options. I could also trim the shafts down a bit more to run a heavier point, though I'd need to relearn the gap.

I have no plans to use carbon.

Thanks.

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