I carried on from Bob Gordon of St. Maries Idaho when he had a floater piece of plague blind him in one eye. He started warf conversions 25 years or so ago to ILF and was the innovator of the short riser ILF stuff in many ways.

He cut down a PSE riser to 17 inches and made a jig to have it welded back.

David Sosa and John Magera kind of re-thought the adjustment slot in DAS out from the old Hoyt Medallion capture system and it became DAS.

Warf originated from Bobs 90 pound Boxer dog and the character with the wrinkled forehead on Star Trek.

Warf is an ILF conversion and Quarf was a bolt down with Quinn limbs and God rest Peggy and David Quinn in heaven.

I talked to them both and they were both the nicest people, not to mention the high-quality limbs and bows David made.

We do not care what they are called but that is the original history and nomenclature and it honors them all when used correctly.

double, sorry~!

Deleted the thread with the most information? OK, will start over because it is relevant to history.

Bob Gordan is the father of the warf conversion to ILF and to bolt downs also.

Bob was a pro shooter for Hoyt years ago and would show and shoot and win.

Bob was also a hunter and one thing about Bob few know is that he uses a pin sight to hunt with.

Another thing about him is his prowess with a 45-70 and his collection of long rifles he shoots in competitions across the states.

Bob also made and designed his own small mouth fishing boars and is an avid fisherman.

He used steel plates and would glue them in with JB weld and after relieving the pocket floor an 8th inch would insert a jig into the JB he poured into the dovetail section and would slide that in to form the dovetails.

David Sosa of DAS kinetics had a lot of help from Bob in his riser designs. Bob actually cut down a 25 inch PSE ILF riser and made a jig to hold it when a pro welder put it back together.

David was loaned that riser when he began his designs.

David and Peggy Quinn are both passed away now but they were the owner's operators of Quinn archery. They made great limbs and they were used a lot on bolt downs for years.

Their limbs lost 8 pounds on a BB riser and made a terrific shooter.

More if there is interest?

Thanks for the history Sam, didn’t realize Bob Gordon knew David. Mr. Bob did my Black Bear.

Very informative.

I'd like more. Very interesting and important history that shows how we got here now.

Many have never heard of a warfbow and this is proof by my efforts to get an article published in a Trad magazine.

I have so far had no takers when I ask for a chance to publish the history with my knowledge base.

I am continually amazed by being put off by those who seem to think that all wood bows are the grail.

ILF is just an attachment system for Bow limbs, a takedown system that is simple and reliable.

A backpack bow, a traveling bow, a Bow that can be used with multiple sets of limbs in up to 5 lengths.

A Bow that you can make yourself at minimal cost and have the performance of the top performers and surpasses many.

Bear Black bear Hoyt Rambo Hoyt Spectra Hoyt Pro Vantage Hoyt TD 3 Proline

Some of the most popular risers for conversion or bolt downs.

The BB gains 4-6 on limbs for 25's. Hoyts gain nothing. Proline gains 8-10 pounds.

ILF, an acronym for international limb fitting that was introduced by Hoyt many years ago.

Original was HDC, Hoyt Dovetail system.

Olympic limbs are used and in recent years, Longbow limbs by many custom makers are available.

Numerous limb makers around the World from basic to advanced in shorts, mediums and longs are available.

Tiller adjustable for weight and tuning up to 8% or more in wound in and wound out range.

Some say 5 turns out and in, is the adjustment range.

FF material is usually the norm for performance.

Usually, 21-inch risers are the norm for warf risers.

Conversion plates can be had online.

Some conversions are done by adding 8th-inch plates and then milling the dovetails and some are milled in existing floors.

RECYCLING old compound risers to make the conversions.

A 3/8's limb bushing is used on the 5-16'sx18 NC limb bolts which is a standard in the industry, even today.

Bushings can be made from stainless or brass tubing.

3/8's outer, 5/16's inner and usually 43 thousand walls.

DT's are 7/16's wide, 1/4 deep and a 45 or even a 65-degree cutter can be used.

The proper dims put the primary pressure on the fitting radius and not the limb bolts.

ILF limb slots should have proper built-in clearance to ensure this fit.

From limb bolt center to the radius or back of the dovetail should be 2.100.

More deflex in the handle section makes for a forgiving bow.

Less would work OK with LB limbs but on recurve bows, the standard of keeping the curves behind the hand grip makes the best shooting bow.

In recurve bows, forgiveness only costs a few feet per second and is preferred by most.

Proline risers from a Typhoon compound make a jet bow with fast recurve limbs and is a 15 or so degree riser angle.

Some depending on how they measure will come up with different angles of the pockets.

I recommend measuring pocket angles by going up the center of the grip and on butcher paper or cardboard.

Measure with a protractor off the top and bottom angles where the lines cross.

The best all-around riser for 28-29 inch draws in the BB.

Long draw shooters benefit from the Rambo/Spectra because of less preload and aahhhhhhhhhhhhh that grip is good!

So you want to do your own?

Simple, can you cut out a 1/8th piece of aluminum or steel and make it fit your pocket nice and tight?

Can you drill a 3/8's hole where the limb bolts go? If you want to test your ability? You will be able to drill a 5/16's hole for the limb bolt and have it fit for proper location.

You need a set of dial calipers.

You need a mill file and a hacksaw and vise.

You need a drill and some JB weld.

A dremel tool and a burr on the end.

Can you make a facsimile of a dovetail that slides in an ILF dovetail?

All there is to it! Can you find a piece of aluminum and file and fit by sliding it in and testing for fit?

Once you get your jig made, you can relieve the pocket floors by removing 1/8th inch deep and inch back from the bottom of the riser floor and say, 5/8's or so wide and even more will not hurt.

Make the relief cut smooth and level but not absolute because you are gonna do this;

Glue in your plate after you have hacksawed a dovetail slot and angled the bottoms 45 or so degrees in the slot. This is 7/16's wide and a nice half round on the radius. You can magic marker the slot and pop in a limb to see where it is hitting. Witness marks.

The plate was fit, then you marked it down 2.100 to the radius for proper fit and then after getting proper center and marking your lines you hacksawed it out, and cut on the inside of the lines to ensure you could file fit the slot.

You bevel the bottom edges to allow for fitting angle and adjustment.

Confused? OK, just get your plate fit in the pocket. Then mark and drill your limb bolt hole, then mark centerline and put a mark 2.100 down from the center of the LB hole to the proposed end of the dovetail. (radius to be)

Then you would divide the 0.437 by 2 and mark the outer lines to cut to. So, 0.215 from centerline for the slot cuts. Then you file in the lines for a nice straight proper fit and angle the slot after you have made a nice half round radius to the end of the slot with a 3/8's mill file.

Again, check with witness marks sharpie coat by sliding in the ILF limb fittings on your limbs.

Now with all that done, glue in your plate with JB but first you have removes all the paint from the pocket floors for good adhesion.

You have relieved the first inch of the pocket floor to a 1/8th- inch depth, or a little more? more will not hurt because JB will form the bottom of your dovetail because you made a jig to form the dovetail.

After the plate has dried and making sure not to over goob it and have glue run into your relief cuts, you can then goob up your jig and get ready to goob in some JB weld into the dovetail area to form your new ILF dovetail.

So,,,,,,you goob up the dovetail base you have formed and slide int your jig, get it in straight and let it set up 24 hours, checking to make sure it has not shifted (your jig) and let it dry.

Pop it out and use an inverted diamond Dremel attachment to clean up the bottom of the dovetail if needed?

Now that you have a dovetail, you can pop in the limb and see the detent witness marks and make an entry half round with a chainsaw file at the bottom of the riser pocket to allow a raceway entry for the limb detents. Once the end of the raceway is witmnessed, you can do a 28 drill bit and do a small holding detent mark where the detent stops and will hold in your limbs.

Make your limb bolt bishings per the dims in the earlier post and you have a dovetail warf conversion you just did yourself,.

Good info. Thanks Sam.

More coming, mark this thread.

I have a bunch of ILF risers in different lengths, a bunch of limbs and now 4 or 5 warfed risers. I'm amazed that the warfs with the right set of limbs will perform with the best custom made bow out there on any given day........just cool stuff.

They will! some look down on a warf but they are as good as any other and better than many depending on your shooting goals.

Have killed most of my animals from Elk down with a warfed BB riser.

I am out of the game these days and no time for warfing others risers. The thin plates on ebay are the way to go for the easiest method to do your own.

I think 26 bucks shipped these days?

I know I made Hawkeye some sales but not my intentions to sell plates but Hawkeye and the Mann plates for PSE risers etc. all transform them into a really good riser.

Why not? I mean it makes it easy and you can just bondo int the spacers or make some with old clothespins and use a belt sander on some pretty exotic wood to make them pleasing. I make them from fiberglass resin in rtv molds and sand them down to fit on a belt.

I have done hundreds glued in with bondo and if you get all the paint off the pocket walls they will stay in forever.

Like I said, I am off to new things like hunting shooting and riding a dirt bike on Colorado mountain roads this year and will pass this on.

More on history;

Maybe John Magera can reply on this?

I have heard on good authority that when David Sosa was working on his riser development that; John had some input on the R&R of the old Hoyt TD attachment system.

Sosa ended up elongating the old system and made it adjustable to 10% of the ILF range of tiller and the result was the DAS attachment system.

You know that is the beauty of having a TD riser. You can actually convert in half hour to be tiller adjustable by locating and slotting with a chainsaw file.

I just drill with a 3/16's drill and elongate the hole 150 thousand each way. I then tap the top of the hole with a 1/4x20 tap and screw in a DAS caption screw and pad the bottom with some rubber. All you need then is a limb bolt bushing and some ILF limbs and you have a DAS riser.

And the interest level is low. I will be around if anyone needs any info, just PM me.

Sorry Sam. Just now seeing this. I haven't read the whole thing, but I can tell you this much...

David contacted five of us guys to provide input and to test the prototypes for his short hunting riser. Bob and I were two of the five.

Although I always liked Earl Hoyt's thumbscrew takedown system (I still have and use a factory camo 20" Hoyt TD riser), David's insistence that he use that system was a point of disagreement between him and me. He thought that system would be more readily adopted by traditional bowhunters, and that it would be quieter than an ILF attachment. Although I could see his points, I felt the ILF system would be better for his business. We continued to disagree on this until he got ugly toward me, and I finally just stopped communicating with him.

Eventually (and I don't know if it was 3-Rivers insistence or what) the DAS riser featured the ILF system. I felt that if it had from the beginning, David would have had a lot more luck and probably would still be in business.

Of course, Bob Gordon deserves all the credit in the world for making the idea of a short ILF hunting riser accepted in the traditional world.

Having said that, his was just a newer generation of Earl Hoyt's still outstanding idea of featuring 3 riser lengths for his TD limbs. So this short "ILF" hunting riser really is nothing new. One could say it's over 40 years old now.

I enjoyed shooting the prototype DAS but ultimately wanted to go back to a lighter riser, and once the wood ILF hunting risers came out, I went that direction with no regrets.

I still enjoy tinkering with these things and just the other day converted a set of Trad Tech Carbon/Wood limbs to my now very old camo TD-2 20" riser. With a couple sets of TD-2 brass limb bushings that I covet like gold, it only takes a few minutes to swap bushings and then deepen the limb fork with a chainsaw file.

Hope that helps.

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