Is there a minimum distance recommended when bare shaft tuning? Living in town, I typically shoot in my basement which is about 12 yards.

That's enough to start with.

Thanks for feedback. Figured I would get out where I could stretch it a bit once I had an arrow or two that looks promising

Bare shaft tuning I found has a couple methods that people employ. Some look at nock orientation in the target as in nock right/left and nock up/down for spine and nock point determination. Another method also called bare shaft planing compares arrows of equal components one set fletched and the other not fletched. Where the arrows group in the target determines spine and nock point position. The ACS website has a good write up of the latter method. Ask Bowmania. He’s recommended this site many times. I use the latter method starting closer as in 12-15 yards and then farther out as I get closer to finding the best arrow/tune for my bow.

If you have any doubt about the correct spine, start real close so you don't damage your arrows. I've snapped cedars in half when they struck the target at too much of an angle...

A dozen yards is a good start, then just keep backing up until you're sure that the scatter is due to a limitation in your shooting ability, rather than an error in spine tolerance.

I can't get much more than 15 yards in the back yard here, but I got dialed in well enough that I was shooting just fine to a bit over 20. Then I tried 30 and started seeing some pretty crazy stuff from time to time, but I'm hoping that after 15 yards of relatively settled flight to get trued up, I shouldn't see anything weird happeningafter that...

Still want to get it to bare-shaft perfection at 30, though...

Be especially careful if doing wood shafts, start 10 yards or less, don't want to break them.

As for nock angle vs. nock placement, be a bit leery of that unless you know your target medium isn't "steering" the arrow upon impact.

Very good advice. Distance will show small errors that up close won't. When both are grouping TOGETHER at 12 yards continue to back up. You want them to do the same at 20. The pros shoot at 50 with no problem. Personally my skill won't detect much past 20 or so yards. >>>----> Ken

Good info, thank you.

You have to save Bareshaft for those relaxed/good days, a poor release can have you chasing your tail.

Start close get good groups and move back and keep tweaking till you reach your desired distance. Normal split or 3 under 20-25y is good enough, more target oriented setups can be shot even further, for me it's 30-35 yards.

Just cold days can throw my release off, I only ever Bareshaft in Spring/Summer.

You can throw in some paper testing and use even shorter distances where space is a constraint.

There is only one bare shaft method and that is bare shaft planing (due to the force of the air on the side of the shaft). Looking at nock orientation in the target is not bare shaft tuning. Actually, it's a waste of time and worse - can be very misleading.

Like Limbwalker said. Get you one of these.

Will do. Yeah, I can already see that I might drive myself dingy messing with this stuff??

Not if you simply read "the directions" that longbeauxman posted above.

The primary reason people get frustrated with bare shaft tuning is they never read the dang directions in the first place.

Limbwalker times 2. I've tried to discourage people from trying to tune by nock orientation for years.

I am shooting a BW PA, 60" AMO 46# at 28". My draw length is 27.25. SBD 8 strand string. I've been playing with 175 gr field points with only the 16 gr insert that comes with the arrows. Is this an unrealistic point weight for this setup? I'm planning the order an arrow test kit but I don't want to start cutting arrows for the 175 gr tip if it isn't a good choice.

Thanks for any info

KenBeck has a great video on You Tube.

Thanks. I'll take a look at them

There’s lots of ways to do it. My preferred method is to get a little room to watch the arrow flight. See which way the nock comes out. once I get them flying straight I shoot with fletched arrows and fine tune to get them grouping together if needed. Usually the second step isn’t needed. At any rate if you have good lighting I think 12 yards would get you in the ballpark using this method.

John -

One of the points we have to disagree. If separation and nock kick out don't agree at 20 yards, I don't trust the data and it's usually due to user error. They rarely disagree. Kinda because what cause one, causes the other.

fdp -

and you're still wrong.

Viper out.

No Viper....I'm not. Not for the majority of people that are on here. Nock orientation in the target is completely unreliable. As the target medium has too much affect on the position the nock ends up in.

And nock kick is something that most people can't actually see, and if they do, they aren't seeing at the right time, they are seeing it too far down range.

Now, I would agree that for someone who has above average ability, and understands what to look for and where in nock kick, it can be beneficial. But fact is, that most folks aren't good at reading what it is telling them.

fdp -

Oh, I see, it's the target media that makes the nock kick-out unreliable? Gotcha, then why aren't all the arrows in the target at odd angles? I mean, a lot of people here post pictures of their favorite groups, most look pretty parallel - or are you saying there should never be a nock kick-out because the target will straighten the arrows? Fact is, if the media where that directional, all the arrows would be in the same direction, regardless of the direction of impact. And yes, that can happen, but it's pretty rare - and I've bare shafted into Block targets, Spyders (stuffed and layered - not sure of exact names), excelsior most other stuff out there and can usually see the kick-out.

Can't see a nock kick-out? If that where true, that that guys shouldn't be playing with pointy sticks. We're not talking about a 1/8" or even a 1/4" kick-out, that's statistical error, happily, it's usually way more than that. At 10 yards (where we recommend starting) the separation usually isn't all that great, and all you have to work with is the kick-out. I'll guarantee you, given a shooter of reasonable skill, if I see a right kick-out at 10 yards, at 20 the arrow is going well off to the left.

So, above average in skill and knowledge? I don't believe that either. This just isn't that difficult. If your bare shafts are grouping somewhere, near the fletched ones or not, you're shooting well enough to tune. If the bare shafts are all over the place, then maybe tuning isn't your biggest concern. Not getting the difficulty in reading the data either. If the the bare shafts are off center (or off from the fletched arrows) in one direction, the nock should be pointing in the opposite direction. That part is pretty easy. It only gets tricky when you have to know when to disregard the data. IE. when are disagreements between separation and kick-out acceptable and when not (is it the media or the shooter). That might take a little experience. Most good coaches have figured that out.

What do I believe? That a lot of people buy into the "don't trust nock kick-out" because some one told then that and it stuck. I'll let you figure out why. Those are usually the same people who tell you not to paper tune a trad bow. The fact is that nock kick-out is real, and it's the exact same thing that we use regardless of how we tune.

You can get false readings from anything, and with a little practice and experience, most folks can weed those out.

Viper out.

Some good vids on utube by 70 and 90 meter shooters showing how group tuning works the best for them, and how they group tighter and closer to 10 ring using this method.Not that hard to learn and works well even at 20 yds.The heading read group tuning versus bare shaft tuning.Just what i have learned from the vids, and it is not me speaking,it is guys who tune there bows razor edge for olympic style shooting.

Bass -

Not sure what videos you're looking at, but every Olympic shooter I've worked with or discussed this with starts with bare shaft tuning and then tweaks the tune by group size and walk back tuning. But, ya gotta start somewhere. Most good Olympic shooters, end up with a slightly stiff tune and closer to center than possible with most "trad" equipment for best groups. Also remember, that form is rarely an issue at that level. Things show up at 70M (76 yards), that you'll never see at 20.

And BTW - 90M hasn't been used in Olympic archery in more than a few decades and has pretty much being/has been phased out in FITA as well.

Viper out.

Just did not make it up.He compared bare shaft tuning to group tuning.In any case it worked for me.I did not question you on any of the above just telling you what i saw on a vid, and it works for me.He is very good teacher maybe he could not teach you new things about shooting but he sure helped me,so did Arnie Moe,Jim Blackmon.Rod Jenkins and others.

Bass -

I appreciate that, but there's a catch with group tuning. One problem that you have to be shooting pretty darn consistent groups, preferably at distance to make a determination.

A good Olympic shooter averaging 3" at 20 yards might be able to see the difference 1/2" or even 1/4" in group size. A "regular" decent trad guy shooting 6" groups at 20, will through a few 4" groups and a few 8-9" groups during a session. And still, you're never quite sure what changed the groups size. Sure, if you established a baseline with a few dozen groups, then made one change and threw a few dozen more groups you might get an idea - or you might be more confused.

Here's an idea:

1. Get arrows based a knowledgeable source.

2. Bare shaft starting at 10 yards and work your way back as far as you are conformable. Yeah, this part assumes you can accurately interpret the data.

3. Make small tweaks and evaluate group size over time. Still those "tweaks" can't or shouldn't be random. The bare shafts should give you a clue. If they don't or you can't read them, maybe you should leave well enough alone. Like I said, if your groups vary by 2" from end to end, you're going to have a hard time making a call AND if you do see a drastic difference by making a tweak, they you had to pretty darn far off.

Look, there's no rule that says you have to bare shaft tune or tune at all. Some people like to tinker and some want to rule out as many variables as they can. It's like the guys who say they can't shoot with a sight. There's a world of difference between can't and won't.

For those happy with what they're doing, this thread is irrelevant, for those at a point where they are shooting well and want to get better ... then thinking has to change.

Viper out.

This guy was shooting back in increments,40 50,60,70 80 and 90 meters.Showing horizontal spread ,and vertical string of the arrow groups.Can not remember his name.He showed were group tuning rendered tighter groups, and closer to the x ring consistently in his shooting.I have no problem with either way group tuning or bare shaft tuning they work for me,and i can do it quickly.End result my bare shaft is in the group with my fletched arrows,and my broadheads shoot with my field points,and will shave arrows,and shoot straight nocks.I am not a teacher like you, but i am a good student.

Bass -

Let me make it a little clearer.

1. If your bare shafts are to the right of your fletched ones and have a left nock kick out, what do you do?

2. If you are shooting a group and you want to make it smaller, what do you do?

See the problem? #1 has a definite answer, #2 is an open question. I don't like making random changes hoping for the best.

Sorry, just saying "group tuning" really doesn't mean anything by itself. As I said, you have to start somewhere. Starting with bare shafts = fletched arrows gives you a baseline.

Not really sure what we're debating.

Viper out.

I can understand why Ken Beck refers to his bare shaft arrow as his "coach". I have been shooting a couple of bare shafted Easton Axis Traditional 500s with two of the same fletched. With a 175 grain field point, the fletched arrows are grouping together with the bare shafts. When shooting the bare shafts, I get immediate feedback as to when I am doing something wrong in my form. If I do my part, all arrows are together.

Yep am shooting fletched 3 shot groups ,and 1 bare shaft with quills left on with each group.So i am shooting 4 groups three with feathers, and 1 with quilled bare shaft,and you do get immediate feed back with wrong form.Call it group tuning quill tuning bare shaft tuning or what ever name you want,and it works just fine.Hope this may help Viper understand it may be termonology that we are debating nothing else.

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