I will likely be cutting way back on bow building in a few months to do some other things. I thought I would share a technique I use. I am not saying it is the only right technique, just saying it works for me and I like it. I feel it takes all the guess work out and the need to use experience and judgement. It gives the bowyer something objective to work with.

I build a lot of bows all different lengths, draw weights and styles. From 150# English longbows to 18# 54" recurve and everything in-between. Nothing is more disappointing than coming in light on a bow.

The best way I have found to avoid this is to go to the long string much earlier. A bowyer will normally start removing wood from the belly of the bow and flexing it on the ground to see how strong it is, once he feels it is getting close he will usually either brace the bow or put it on the long string to make a few adjustments before bracing. There are a few potential problems here I will get into later.

In my method I still floor tiller but I stop floor Tillering when the bow is just barely flexing. I want to be 100% certain that all parts of the limb are still too strong when I put it on the long string. More times than I can count when using the floor tiller to brace method I have ended up with one little portion of one limb already bending to its max and I end up Tillering the entire bow to match that one spot.

Once I get it on the long string I pull right from the begaining to full target weight. Make sure the long string is just barely long enough to put on the bow. I like to get just a very slight flex out of the fades and inner limb early on so I am watching that area closely. You can use a gizmo, or your eyeball or a very short straight edge (4' to 6") long to check the bend in both limbs white it is at full target weight, which might only be 10" or 12" pull at this point. I make a mark on the stiff spots scrape it off and go back to the long string. I never think of myself as removing weight from the bow, I am only thinking about perfecting the tiller and weight removal is a natural bi product of that.

Each time you scrape wood off the bow the draw length will increase some. It might be hard to read how much but it is increasing each time. Now here is something I just discovered a few years ago and it has made my life a lot easier. When a bow is on the long string ( not too long) it will read the same weight on your tiller tree as it will when you brace it. So there is no need to guess about when to brace it. If I am going for a 28" draw I brace the bow when I hit 24" on the long string, sometimes 23" but no more than 24".

Inbetween all these trips to the tiller tree we are also monitoring the condition of the wood to make sure it is not taking set. If it is starting to take set the first thing I always ask myself is the wood dry enough to make a bow. If the answer is yes and the tiller is even the only other alternative is to lower my draw weight expectation. I use a sytem I developed called the mass priniciple, it tells me how much the mass weight of the bow should be when finished. If I fall below this figure by too much I know I didn't allow enough wood in the design and again I would have to lower my draw weight expectation.

The process is a bit tedious but it actually goes pretty fast becaus eyou are not thinking about things and guessing. You are always moving forward.

Thank You badger. That makes really good sense.

Thanks Badger. Take care, >>>----> Ken

Thanks Steve, great info! I'll be using it! Wyatt

good stuff Steve! thanks.

Great stuff Steve ... thanks and a question if I may ...

Lets say you're making a laminated bow and you want a bow of a specific draw weight. How do you establish/calculate the starting thickness of your raw timber laminations. Is it trial and error based on experience or do you have a formulae.

Phil, in some cases where the draw weight, length, wood type etc are slightly outside the norm I start off with what I call a sacrificial bow that is partially based on experience and partially based on my bow mass principle. I calculate what the mass weight of the bow should be and use a starting width that is pretty typical for that particular design. I always leave extra on the belly lam as I trim that up while Tillering. I assume you were referring mainly to English Longbows and warbows, In most cases the first bow will make the weight but if not it will get me close enough that the next bow will be right on.

Thanks Steve .. makes perfect sense. Could I ask you to explain how you calculate your mass weight of a bow

My current project is a bit out the norm. It's bow inspired by an archeological tomb find in Hubei China from sometime between 770BC to 220AD

Send me the length, profile and draw weight you are looking at as well as the wood you plan on using. If it is horn and sinew then it would be in a different ballpark all together.

Steve, that's how I've been making bows for 20 years. I trust what I see on the tillering tree a lot more than I do when pushing against the floor, and more info is available on the tree. When going straight to the tillering tree with the long string, both limbs are bent at the same time, and if drawing the string from the proper place, dynamic balance can be achieved earlier, which can help the bow take less set.

I only use the long string to get the limbs bending far enough to get the bow braced because the long string doesn't flex the outer limbs like a proper length string does.

You two (Jeff and Badger)need to get together and write a book

Great advice Badger thanks for sharing!

Jeff, how do you know when it is ready for brace height? I do just as you described but I use the 23" sometimes 24" marker for my brace, gives me plenty of room for final adjustments. I also tend to leave my outer limbs stiff on most types of bows. I use a nail in my tiller tree at 16". This is where I hook the string while marking it for adjustments to be made.

badger has gone over this with me on a one on one basis.great,great teacher, and a really sharing guy.Can not say enough good things about him as a bowyer and a man.

Jeff, to an experienced person building a bow that he is very familiar with simply saying I brace it as soon as it is bending enough to brace is fine. But if someone is always making different styles and draw weights or hasn't made many bows knowing when it is bending enough is a problem. What I am describing above is a way to know exactly when it is bending enough using a real number. Every trip to the tree the bow is being pulled to full draw weight, whatever that might be say 50#. So I say when you are pulling on it 50# and it goes down to 23" you are ready to brace the bow, it is bending enough and it won't be too strong. A lot of bows are damaged by bracing too soon.

Thanks for posting this Steve. Always find these threads very interesting and informative. Did you ever think about doing a self bow video? From Stave to Bow? Could you post a picture of a basic self bow design. With all dimensions That would work for Osage and Hickory? Something basic with no shelf cut in.

A great bit of information here. I agree with Bassman. Although I've never had a one on one with Badger he is very sharing of his knowledge. It takes years and years of practical application to gain this sort of knowledge and here Badger shares it in a few paragraphs. Definitely looking forward to trying this method on my current build. Thanks Badger.

Steve, it's possible we're doing the same thing, but I don't watch how far I'm drawing it with the long string on. Early on, I watch how far the limb tips are moving. I'll explain below.

Another thing about the experience/inexperience thing is... folks can get into trouble if they use the long string too far into the tillering process because of the outer limb thing mentioned above. I've seen it many times. With the long string, they go for nice gentle arcs in the whole limbs, and then when a string is used that braces it to the correct height, the string angle and tension on the tips is different, and the outer limbs instantly get weaker.

Also, the long string doesn't usually give an accurate draw weight. Put a long string on a finished bow and scale it. It will register a different weight, sometimes several pounds... how much different is proportionate to the actual draw weight, and it's design too I suppose. Point is, I don't trust weight readings with the long string on. For ballpark early in the tillering? yes. Drawn farther down the tree, when I could/should be using a proper length string and know exactly what weight I'm dealing with? nope.

So, I advocate that until they're more familiar with it, at least, that they put it away once the bow can be braced to a low brace height. The bow won't be 'damaged' if it's first tillered adequately, and balanced, beyond what's needed to get it braced.

The reason I didn't give specific 'draw length numbers' like your 23-24" to indicate when to brace with a shorter string is, that number can/should vary considerably depending on bow design, how much longer the string is than the bow, and more.

So, rather than give specific draw length numbers, I figure, regardless of design, if the limbs tips are moving 7-8" behind the handle at the target draw weight, it can be braced to a low 3-4" without straining it beyond the length or weight it's already been trained to... i.e. without 'damage'. I continue on tillering and balancing until the tips are about 10" behind the handle and then go to full brace and reassess from there.

I don't advocate pulling to full draw weight with every trip to the tree because flaws in the tiller can reveal themselves before it's drawn that far.

Instead, I draw until a flaw is revealed, never past it, and never past full draw weight. Address the flaw, exercise the limbs 30-40 times, check again at the previous draw length, and only proceed to draw it another inch if the correction registered.

I don't go to 24" but I long string 10" looking for target weight plus 5# or so. Then I string it. Puts the stone a 10# over target weight. Thanks for sharing. Always good to have a plan. Jawge

Jeff, intuitively you would think the weight is not accurate because the bow is braced but in fact it is surprisingly accurate. I started doing it like this about 3 years ago with every style shape and weight you can imagine and I find that if the long string is hanging down less than 6" with a scale sitting on it it will in fact read very close to the same thing on the tiller tree as if it were braced. I do it to every single bow. As for the tiller being off, I think that has something to do with where someone is taking the readings to make changes. For most of my tillering I have the bow sitting at 16" of draw or more when I make my marks to remove wood. I leave the outer 10" pretty stiff as said above and I never have a problem with it. At 24" on the long string it will mean I am bracing the bow at about 12# over target finished weight.

Tip movement doesn't really say much about a bow because it is all relative to string angle. A short long string will produce string angles when drawn very similar to a braced bow.

I was very specific about the long string being just long enough to get on the bow, this can vary by about an inch or so and still produce very similar results. One of the first things I noticed when I got into bow making was how all directions given lacked specifics. Truth is we can work with hard numbers here and be very specific and it works fine, taking the guess work out.

Not intuitive, bud. Actual. I've weighed them both ways and they're different. Yep, with the string just barely long enough to get it on the tips. I just checked an osage bow and it was 5 lbs different. But like I said, the main reason I won't use it too far into the tillering is because it doesn't flex the limbs properly.

Tip movement tells me enough. It tells me when I can brace it without straining it more than it was strained on the tree.

Jeff, tip movement tells you nothing, how hard are you pulling on it to get that tip movement? How long is your long string when are getting the right tip movement. Without the other two parameters it tells you noting. I still say simply reading the poundage at the draw length is the most accurate assessment of where you are at any given time. Think of yourself trying to tell a new guy when to brace a bow. You would have to give him 3 parameters to base on just like I am doing. Simply pulling it to a specific draw length is by far the easiest and most accurate. Funny you got 5#, I do it all the time on ever single bow and I seldom am off more than 2# or 3#. I also have no problems getting desired tiller shape. Actually the way you are describing is most likely putting your string right near the 23" or 24" mark anyway. So if you are bracing when it is still about 10# heavy you are really not talking much if any difference, just a different way of reading it.

I think the point is that I am not trying to say this method is better than some one else's method. I am simply saying it gives parameters that are easy to follow and they will be consistent regardless of design. These are the same methods I use to produce the record setting English longbows last year and the record setting American longbows before this, so please don't tell me it doesn't work. If I am only building 1 bow a week I feel like I am semi retired from bow making. I get plenty of practice at trying things out before I talk about them. Very few of the books I have seen are specific about a lot of things that give bow makers a little trouble. All I am attempting to do here is be specific.

And before you say something about flightbows being different, the winning bows were not built as flight bows, they were simply built as good solid bows that could be used everyday.

Badger at what point does the back set and heat come into play with your process of building???

No set rule Bassman it has a lot to do with how straight the stave is. I much prefer to work with a straight as possible limb so I will usually take the kinks out of it pretty early on in the bending process. The hickory bow I am working on now was at 15" on the tiller tree and I decided to go ahead and heat it up and straighten it out. If a stave is perfect I might take it almost to brace before I heat it up and reflex it. The longer I wait the less likely it is I will have to heat it another round, the bow I did today I am pretty certain will require another round of heat. I just wanted it straight so I could see it better.

Thanks again badger,you have once again made it clear to me.My method was to get the bow down enough so it would bend on a form with heat then take the kinks and twists out of it and line the tips up with with the handle,take it off the form put it on a long string and then tiller.But it is just a hard knocks way for me.Then when i finished tillering it i would heat it one more time.

Thanks! I have used your method on my last two bows and they have come out as a couple of my best so far - and not under weight!

good

Badger, being specific is fine. I'm not saying the method you described doesn't work. I'm saying, respectfully, you're off on a few things, as worded, and maybe it would behoove folks to understand why.

You said, "Tip movement tells you nothing." "How long is the string?" "How hard are you pulling?"

I believe I covered all of that above.

I said my aim with the long string is to get the tips several inches behind the handle, tillered and balanced at no more than target draw weight. When I'm close to that, it tells me a TON of info, and is a dang good start to any bow. I couldn't care LESS how far down the wall the long string comes. I only watch it for left/right, for limb balance.

We can't escape the fact that there are several factors/parameters one must pay attention to and coordinate in order to consistently make good bows, and I've found... the sooner in the process, the better.

You think watching the draw length with the long string gives easy to follow parameters that are consistent regardless of design? Let's say one bow has 1" of string follow and the next one's tips are 3" in front of the handle? As the bowyer pulls them both to the same spots on the tree, one is always being draw 4" less than the other relative to the actual draw length... and that means what in regard to the perceived weight? A difference between the two bows of 12-15 lbs? That's consistent?

Easy, yes(initially). Consistent, no.

Jeff, my aim in this thread was not to talk about tiller specifically. It was about giving a bowyer a method for knowing where he was at at all times while building a bow regardless of bow style or weight.

And yes it doesn't matter how much the tips are moving if you are trying to figure out where you are on draw weight, I will say it again, it doesn't matter. The most accurate way to to determne how far along you are on a bow is to simply read the draw weight on your tiller tree just as if the bow were braced regardless of tip position behind the back or not.

Jeff something all spings have in common is that they build at different rates, bows actually build at a very low rate, draw weight increases primarily because as the string angle changes we give up leverage. So I will say it again, ignore the tip movement when assessing current draw weight just read what the tiller stick is telling you.

I am kind of surprised that after all these years you have been building bows that you think the amount of tip movement affects draw weight??? Puzzles me.

Pat, even in your case I don't mind being badgered as long as you are being specific and actually making points. In your case you put it more on a personal level and started going in circles. I enjoy seeing someone pick a theory apart. If it falls apart it falls apart. If you would have stayed on track I would have had no problem with you. In this particular case it is something I do every day and have for some time now. I discovered it late in my own bow building journey and it has made my life a lot easier and improved the quality of my bows.

Pat, I don't dislike you and very often you make very good arguments. You bring up things worthy of being addressed and I actually respect your intellect. But I have also noticed that once you get on a personal level your arguments tend to be aimed more at discrediting someone than actually arriving at some kind of answer.

Badgering the badger isn't my intent ;^) Believe it or not, I'm trying to help.

Steve, as usual, you twisted my words and missed my point... that tells me you either just want to argue, or don't want to admit I'm right :^)

Where the tips are matters if you want to judge by the same parameters AND maintain consistency. Let me explain. And hey, try to be objective now.

I don't think I worded this paragraph adequate for you to understand last time, so I'm going to try to fix it...

You think watching the draw length with the long string gives easy to follow parameters that are consistent regardless of design? I don't. Here's why.

Let's say one bow has 1" of string follow and the next one's tips are 3" in front of the handle? This means that one bow has 4" farther to go to reach brace height, and the archer's draw length. No big deal, happens all the time. But as long as the long string is used and both bows' strings are drawn to the same spot on the tree/stick (your 24" for instance), one will be 4" 'behind' the other. It only 'catches up', and they can only be accurately compared by the same parameters... i.e. while drawn the same distance on the tree, AFTER they're braced. Is it a big deal throughout the construction of these bows? Possibly not.

But my point is, testing the draw weights of both of those bows at 24"(or ANYwhere) with a long string isn't testing them by the same parameters, doesn't mean the same thing regarding their draw weights, and we shouldn't tell folks it does.

If the weights are showing the same in the above bows at your 24" with the long string, and they're then braced, the one with the tips 4" farther forward is going to be drawn 4" more and be much heavier in draw weight than the other bow. To me, that's an inconsistent method when designs differ.

I hope it made more sense that time.

Jeff, I suggest we start over. I respect you as a person and I respect you as a bowyer. My thing in this thread as I stated in my opening paragraph was not suggesting it was the only way or the best way but it was my way. I do it every day. Ijust went out and did some quickie tests on a bow with 2" reflex. A finsihed bow. I put on a long string that sat at 13" pull with the scale resting on it and then I pulled it to 28". The bow read 33#. Now I went and put a short long string on it and tested it again. Now it was reading 36#. Now I braced the bow and tested it again and it is reading 35# as it should be. The tip movement in each case was drastically different yet the weight only varied by a small amount. I would almost bet that you and I are bracing the bows at about the same time but making the decision when to brace on different parameters. As I said earlier, this is something I do daily, I am working n a 50# hickory right now that I might turn into a 70# because the numbers are telling me it will easily handle it. I used to be big on speed, I gave that up a few years ago. Now I like good performance and reliability but more importantly I am looking for repeat ability. This means that anyone can repeat it by following certain steps without have to rely on experience or make judgement calls.

Pat, this wasn't a thread about discussing a technique or a theory, I was simply sharing a technique I use. If I didn't use it every single day I wouldn't be so defensive about it. But I do use it daily and I am successful with it. I didn't even talk about for the first year or two I was using it. Now I am starting to think it is really a time saver and a worthwhile technique to employ.

If I were to try and sum it up in one sentence I would have to say. " I think it is the most accurate way to assess the draw weight on a bow that hasn't been braced yet" Simple as that. If you have a more accurate way please point it out and I will happily switch.

Why do you have to use the word ARGUMENT,it is a discussion between two very accomplished bowyers.Do not bring personalities into this discussion.Both are speaking of the way they make there bows with excellent results.Both have an opinion, and i do not think as a starting bow maker you could go wrong with either.It helps alot of us when we apply there techniques,and then we decide for ourselves which one suits us best.If a man is willing to share that kind of knowledge with us we should listen and learn.In the end i know it will make us better bow makers.Experience is the best teacher i believe that.

JUst your opinion

I missed nothing you just like to stir the pot even badger knows that 2 bears and many others.You are called the troller even by hatfield and others, and if it is an argument as you say let them go at it ,and you keep your nose out of it,but you will not,and everybody knows it.

I tried to avoid saying anything and just read and learn but: Badger has years of experience has built some unbelievable performing bows. He is also a big hearted and very helpful man. The very title: "SHARING A METHOD I USE" should say it all. He is sharing if you want to partake and profit from it fine, pay attention as I have. He didn't say USE MY METHOD. If you don't like his Method start your own thread and present yours. I like to read and learn and occasionally I am able to help someone with less experience.Frankly the ARGUMENTS are childish,boring,and very tiring. It is Badgers thread and I was enjoying it. I thanked him earlier for SHARING.Just let it be. >>>----> Ken

X2 Ken. Very well said.

Gallly Kens riled . Did not know that was possible. Steve is pretty good. I know I'm chasing him! Arvin

X3 Ken ..the clue is in the title!

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