Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Addington: advice for target panic

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AspirinBuster 09-Jun-18
twostrings 09-Jun-18
Bowmania 09-Jun-18
Glynn 09-Jun-18
BACKYARD 09-Jun-18
Longcruise 09-Jun-18
Mountain Man 09-Jun-18
Phil 09-Jun-18
limbwalker 09-Jun-18
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AspirinBuster 09-Jun-18
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limbwalker 09-Jun-18
fdp 09-Jun-18
SHOOTALOT 09-Jun-18
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Longcruise 09-Jun-18
Flash 09-Jun-18
Draven 09-Jun-18
Dan Jones 09-Jun-18
Babysaph 09-Jun-18
Draven 09-Jun-18
Draven 09-Jun-18
Draven 09-Jun-18
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AspirinBuster 17-Jun-18
From: AspirinBuster
Date: 09-Jun-18




A friend texted me at 6:45am this morning sending photos from an archery tournament. I believe it’s called “the great archery challenge” or similar named event. Anyway, he sent a handful of photos with the last one of him in a chair saying he was resting after a challenging day of target panic.

I am always amused when I see people trying to get rid of it with devices, etc. Some even attend clinics to get over it.

Here’s the bottom line on target panic. Does it begin in your stance? No. Your brand of bow? No. The way you draw your bow or aim? No. Target panic begins in the mind. It’s a mental issue. Trying to deal with it in any other way in my opinion is temporary. It tends to come back when you don’t deal with it at the source.

I’m of the firm opinion target panic begins in the mind and dealing with it anywhere else is a bandaid and doesn’t solve it.

Here’s an article that I wrote years ago, it’s helped lots of people and I hope it helps you if target panic has been an issue for you.

http://www.bowhunting.net/artman/publish/Frank_Adding ton_41/Target_Panic_No_time_for_it.shtml

I hope my article helps you. I’ll be busy for a week or so but will check back next week to read comments and answer any questions.

God bless you my friends.

Frank

From: twostrings
Date: 09-Jun-18




http://www.bowhunting.net/artman/publish/Frank_Addington_41/Target_Panic_No_time_for_it.shtml

Had to take out a space.

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 09-Jun-18




Frank, I agree with a lot of what you say and actually use NLP. I'm wondering your opinion on the following.

I agree that TP is a brain problem, duh. And it starts there with the pressure put there to do well.

I somewhat disagree that it begins with your stance, draw or aim. I believe that some froms of shooting are more prone to TP than others. By that I mean, in particular, parts of a sequence that require two things to be done at the same time. Your brain has a conscious, which can think of one thing at a time; a subconscious, that can think of many; and a selfimpage. Two things at one time is throwing a curve to the conscious every time.

YOu mention aim. I think aiming is THE major contributor to TP. Most people I see with TP can shoot a good shot if they have their eyes closed.

I was at a Rod Jenkins class where half the class had TP. They got it in around a year after someone changed their style of shooting.

One other thing I disagree with is changing form. Here's how I work with TP. I watch the person shoot. THen I have a talk. I start with them NOT having TP (NLP) and now having it with the current form. SOMETHING happened between then and now. I don't know what it is (it's mental) and you don't know what it is or you could cure it yourself. But here's what I see. Then I change things - put your little finger and ring finger on the front of the riser or take them off. I could change something on Brady and not affect his shot. Doesn't matter what it is we're working on the brain.

Here's the important part. "That last shot you took was your last shot with TP. Your new form that you're going to work on doesn't have TP." Then it's on to the blank bail that takes away aiming.

The reason I mention Brady is becasue you mentioned 'high end' shooters. Your average shooter can get tp and I think they're much easier to cure. Their release stinks. And if you can fix their release so that they don't know when it's going to go off, it's easier for them to believe the 'last shot with tp' idea.

In my opinion if they started shooting like that it's impossible to get tp.

Of course, after the blank bail we have to slowly introduce aiming, but that's another story.

Your thoughts???

Bowmania

From: Glynn
Date: 09-Jun-18




I am always amused when I see people talking or writing about things they have not experienced or even taken the time to actually find out about in depth.

Of course it is a mental issue, guess what?, the devices and clinic your demeaning "bandaid" comments refer to are directly related to addressing that mental glitch that some of our brains develop. It is a normal response to things that happen during a shot, the brain is a very remarkable thing.

If you know that every time you touch your friend on his arm he is going to slap you you get very leery about touching his arm. If you know your finger is going to get pinch/slammed when you pull the trigger on your .500 Smith you can develop a flinch. That is an automatic self preservation thing your brain does for you. Shooting a bow is way down the scale there, but it is still an impact or result from a direct action.

The "clinic" I went to was run by someone who is very aware of NLP. A shooting instructor. He didn't have a big painted wooden mask on or tell me to chant prayers. He had solid answers to all the questions about the mental issue.

I did not change one single thing about my form or shooting style. The only thing I did was learn how to think and focus on the correct things so that my brain didn't "shortcut" and tell me to expect a shot.

We had people in that stupid clinic who shot compound, target recurve, selfbow, whatever. The only form change I saw made was suggesting that a couple of guys stand up straight and use a better draw method and repeatable anchor.

The jury is still out for me, but the "device" I chose let me instantly go back to holding on target till I am completely ready to shoot. I shot bale before and after my brain decided to show me a shortcut, ( after 20 years of shooting a recurve) and I'm using that like dryfire practice/NLP technique to see if I can get back to the way I used to shoot. We'll see, but for now there is no fighting anything, just learning how much concentration it takes to make each shot a perfect one.

From: BACKYARD
Date: 09-Jun-18




Great article Frank.I had tp for years. Switched to 3 under and something just clicked for me.It will still try and return at times but I can catch myself and slow down.Its definitely a mental issue and was awesome to beat it back. Good luck to all in your struggle. Don't stop fighting the darn thing. So much more fun when you get it under control. God bless.

From: Longcruise
Date: 09-Jun-18




I think target panic is, for many, rooted in being overbowed. Not that I don't agree with buster that it's in the mind. It definitely is but I think being overbowed causes a break up in the smooth process of the subconscious mind.

From: Mountain Man
Date: 09-Jun-18




All mental in my opinion Frank!

When i do suffer from TP,,,,i hate the label by the way,its just me being in a hurry or something going on i cant get out of my head Its more of a,,,i cant relax and get my mind on the task at hand It happens at everything not just targets,here again my opinon and im no wxpert compared to Frank in anyway,,,,,and i always trust a Hillbilly transplanted to TX to walk the walk not just talk the talk ; )

If i start getting frustrated,,,i shoot Hill style,,,so ill line up and pull from my back quiver,nock,draw,release as fast as i can till the quivers empty nomatter where im hitn on the target That usally gets it out of my system,,,and i settle down and get back in the hame Just what works for me

From: Phil
Date: 09-Jun-18




make up your own mind about NLP ....

NLP has not been subject to the same standard of scientific rigor as more established therapies, such as cognitive behavioral therapy or CBT.

The lack of formal regulation and NLP's commercial value mean that claims of its effectiveness can be anecdotal or supplied by an NLP provider. NLP providers will have a financial interest in the success of NLP, so their evidence is difficult to use.

Furthermore, scientific research on NLP has produced mixed results.

Some studies have found benefits associated with NLP. For example, a study published in the journal Counselling and Psychotherapy Research found psychotherapy patients had improved psychological symptoms and life quality after having NLP compared to a control group.

However, a review published in The British Journal of General Practice of 10 available studies on NLP was less favorable.

It concluded there was little evidence for the effectiveness of NLP in treating health-related conditions, including anxiety disorders, weight management, and substance misuse. This was due to the limited amount and quality of the research studies that were available, rather than evidence that showed NLP did not work.

In 2014, a report by the Canadian Agency for Drugs and Technology in Health found no clinical evidence for the effectiveness of NLP in the treatment of PTSD, GAD, or depression.

However, a further research review published in 2015 did find NLP therapy to have a positive impact on individuals with social or psychological problems, although the authors said more investigation was needed.

The theoretical basis for NLP has also attracted criticism for lacking evidence-based support.

From: limbwalker
Date: 09-Jun-18




Anyone who thinks there is one cure for target panic probably also thinks there is one cure for cancer.

I think you have performance anxiety confused for target panic Frank. They are not the same thing.

NLP will work for some people. Those who are easily convinced of things and do not ask a lot of internal questions. I have known some athletes like this, and a form of NLP was very useful for them. They developed incredible self belief. They also happened to be the kinds of people who bought a lot of things at face value and were impressed with titles and positions without doing a lot of deep, introspective searching. For those folks, NLP will likely work.

For those who want or need to know "the rest of the story," mental gymnastics like NLP is probably not going to help them. Those folks need to know the "why" and that's a lot tougher.

After coaching archers for over 15 years at literally every level in this sport from 1st time to touch a bow to the world championships, I can tell you everyone falls on the spectrum between "just tell me and I'll trust you" to "I have to know why before I am convinced."

Those in the latter side of the scale will have a harder time overcoming their target panic.

Performance anxiety is the easiest thing to deal with. Target panic on the other hand, is not always that easy. Sometimes it is, and sometimes it is not. Every single case is unique, just like cancer.

From: Phil
Date: 09-Jun-18




I know Dr Steve Novella quite well ... he had this to say about NLP

"..the assumptions of NLP, namely that our cognition, behavior and emotions can be 'programmed' by mimicking the more superficial aspects of those with desirable attributes (for example posture and mannerism) are wrong. The last thirty years of research have simply shown that NLP is bunk.--Steven Novella, M.D.

From: AspirinBuster
Date: 09-Jun-18




Phil I didn’t read, study or research NLP. Wyatt Woodsmall, one of the founders, came to my place and worked with me in 1990. I haven’t suffered with target panic since.

I’m not particularly interested in what journals or papers say, the fact is that it worked for me and that was a solution.

While Al Henderson is another coach I liked, he didn’t mention nLp but was a huge advocate for the mental side of archery. You can still get copies of his great book, Understanding Winning Archery.

I have seen lots of people try and “buy” their way out of target panic. They spend money on clinics and new products when really in my opinion target panic is born in the brain. Learning a technique to move past it is the key. Label it what you will.

I’ve been an archer 46 years and a professional exhibition shooter 33 years. If people think an exhibition shooter doesn’t have equal pressure to a target archer or hunter they are incorrect. Think about it. When most archers have a bad day they can go home or leave and come back another day. When I have a bad day there can be thousands watching.

I hope I can help one person who suffers from Target Panic. Then my time Spent writing the article was worth it.

Frank

From: Phil
Date: 09-Jun-18




OK Frank .. you're the expert .. what do I know

From: Mountain Man
Date: 09-Jun-18




Wow the leatherwall lately is like watching the Senate try'n to pass a bill!!

Thanks for the read Frank,,,,,,i think the best way to get rid of Internet panic is to get out the house and go shoot my bow an arrow

From: AspirinBuster
Date: 09-Jun-18




Phil I worked with Dr Wyatt Woodsmall. I can’t speak for your peers or other professionals but I can speak from experience, the NLP technique worked for me and since 1990 I have been a believer. It’s practical, I did not research or read about it, I used it and was taught by one of the founders at my place.

You would have to debate and discuss the scientific methods with Dr Woodsmall.

Even Fred Bear once suffered with target panic so it can happen to anyone.

I simply hope others can benefit from my experience.

Frank

From: limbwalker
Date: 09-Jun-18




"I hope I can help one person who suffers from Target Panic. Then my time Spent writing the article was worth it..."

I agree Frank. Different people need different approaches toward solving their target panic. You offered one approach that may work for some people.

A lot of archers have suffered from target panic, but I don't know a single high level archer who hasn't had one form of it or another at some point. One thing is for sure - if you shoot long enough at big enough events, you will get a visit from the target panic fairy.

From: fdp
Date: 09-Jun-18




"at big enough events" heck....I don't think it even has to be big events.

From: SHOOTALOT Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 09-Jun-18




Thanks Frank for the article you wrote. One problem I may have is I can't remember ever having a time when I didn't have target panic so it may be hard to come up with an "anchor" to go back to. I'll reread the article and give it some thought. I also have one of the books you mention if I can find it. Thanks again.

From: K Cummings
Date: 09-Jun-18




Frank:

When you suffered from target panic, were you shooting behind your back?

KPC

From: Longcruise
Date: 09-Jun-18




Then there the matter of perspective. When I miss the aspirin by only 6 inches I'm having a good day. :^)

From: Flash
Date: 09-Jun-18




I'm trying to find a way to inquire about this respectfully. If you shoot instinctively with a stickbow for a living but pick up a compound with with sights to hunt with. What part of TP have you controlled?

From: Draven
Date: 09-Jun-18




"I think you have performance anxiety confused for target panic Frank. They are not the same thing."

Limbwalker, at surface they seam different. Deep underneath they are the same: flaws in mental management of the shot conditions. These "shot conditions" start with the archer's technical skills and end up with the environmental disturbances. Most of the performance coaches I read are teaching you to prioritize things. KSL is talking about prioritizing the process. Frank is talking about prioritizing "the shooting in your terms" - at least is how I read his article and his question addressed to the archer. Both are talking about how?, when? and why? even if some is using more words than other. At least this is how I see the things.

From: Dan Jones
Date: 09-Jun-18




I don't think that the primary cause of the target panic or loss of control over the shot that I had forever is mental. I believe it began as an eye/hand coordination problem of some kind - i.e. my eye sees a sight picture and triggers the mind to release the arrow. Once control of the shot was lost, a mental dimension - complete loss of confidence - became a secondary cause of the panic.

I never found any way to stop the eye from triggering my release - and believe me I tried everything. I switched hands and have shot panic free since then. I regret the time and effort I wasted on the mistaken belief that the crux of my problem was mental.

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 09-Jun-18




Ok what is NLP

From: Draven
Date: 09-Jun-18




"..the assumptions of NLP, namely that our cognition, behavior and emotions can be 'programmed' by mimicking the more superficial aspects of those with desirable attributes (for example posture and mannerism) are wrong."

I don't think that the NLP treatment Frank is talking about is what you are talking about. That description with transfer of shooting process from champion to green-archer is nothing else but a good old accelerate learning of a process for the host.

From: Draven
Date: 09-Jun-18




PS It will not make the green-archer champion material but will make him a better shooter than his colleagues.

From: Draven
Date: 09-Jun-18




"I don't think that the primary cause of the target panic or loss of control over the shot that I had forever is mental." This affirmation requires an answer to this question: Who (or what) I couldn't blame and I had to learn to shoot lefty?

From: limbwalker
Date: 09-Jun-18




"Limbwalker, at surface they seam different. Deep underneath they are the same"

I will respectfully disagree with you. If you want to compare notes, I'd be happy to.

From: Draven
Date: 09-Jun-18




You disagree with which part? I will like to compare notes: TP prone shooter is a person with more or less visible anxiety disorder present even before archery. And the lack of mental training in parallel with the physical training under X circumstances can push the archer off ballance.

From: limbwalker
Date: 09-Jun-18




Which part? Simple

There is target panic, and then there is performance anxiety. They are two different things. I think folks confuse the two, which commonly confounds the process of solving either.

From: Draven
Date: 09-Jun-18




What makes you think that performance anxiety is something else than TP? Just because one can happen in competition and one in backyard? Both have roots in archer’s personality no matter the type of bow they use or where.

From: David A.
Date: 10-Jun-18




Draven, I tend to agree with you, but would like to understand Limbwalker's view why he thinks TP and performance anxiety are not the same.

As many here probably know, Joel Turner is convinced TP is entirely due to impact bracing. I think it's a big factor, but not the only one.

I also believe those who have good eye hand coordination can "get on target" so fast, they automatically are ready to release before ancbor and this is a huge contributor to "TP" esp. when combined with permormance anxiety.

Additionally, this can be worsened even more in bowhunting because the archer is aware the opportune moment may quickly pass.

From: David A.
Date: 10-Jun-18




Just to add, I believe poor form esp. lack of back tension and the snap shooting method widely advocated are additional factors in TP.

From: Phil
Date: 10-Jun-18




All the published evidence points to Target Panic being an acquired focal dystonia. If anyone else has any solid scientific data, I'd like to see it.

From: Draven
Date: 10-Jun-18




One of the factors that trigger Focal Dystonia is anxiety.

"Other risk factors include anxiety or "choking" that many athletes experience during high-stress competition and overuse of the muscles involved in fine-motor control and precise movements."

From: limbwalker
Date: 10-Jun-18




Phil is correct.

I have coached literally hundreds of tournament archers over the past 15 years at every possible level from their first scored tournament to the world championships. Performance anxiety is completely different than target panic folks. Everyone gets performance anxiety and then learns to manage it. Some better than others. The most elite archers can suppress their performance anxiety with just a little self- talk and a few deep breaths. Some beginning archers deal with performance anxiety as soon as they register for a tournament.

Target panic is something an archer deals with regardless of the circumstances. Performance anxiety usually fades as an archer gets further into a competition.

Shooting alone, in their back yard or home range, target panic is still there. There is no performance anxiety in those situations. When I shoot by myself in my back yard for practice, there is zero performance anxiety. I am completely relaxed. But my target panic is still there.

I have a lot more experience coaching competitive archers than most folks here so that is where I'm coming from - my direct observations and conversations with my students and other archers who have competed with me and at events I've run. When you see as many competitive archers as I have, it's pretty easy to spot the difference between target panic and performance anxiety.

From: limbwalker
Date: 10-Jun-18




I'll add that I'm a happy coach if all my archer has to deal with is performance anxiety. Because that's easy compared to true target panic.

From: Draven
Date: 10-Jun-18




There are hundred of thousands of archers who don't have TP in backyard shooting and there are thousands of target shooters getting TP without being in tournament conditions. Phill is right in pointing the finger on what it is not on what triggers it - and most of the time are not even archery related but personality related triggers. You are a happy coach because you have your archers under surveillance and you can work with them at the first sign of mental disturbance.

From: Draven
Date: 10-Jun-18




PS If archery would have been proved as activity that makes people ill - as you try to imply with this TP lurking in backyard myth - it would have been destroyed by lawyers.

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 10-Jun-18




Draven, (I address this to you because I don't see were Phill said it) who cares what it is, if we can point a finger on what triggers it AND THEN NOT DO THAT BEHAVIOR. Because it's mental, if we knew WHAT it is, we couldn't point a lazor at the spot and kill the cells that cause it like cancer. Cancer is not supposed to be there. God gave us TP so we wouldn't be bored on the LW.

That's why I say that different forms are more prone to TP than others. DavidA mentions lack of bact tension and snap shooting.

I see a big difference in performance anxiety and TP. PA is easy to get rid of and TP is like being an alcohlic, once you have it you always have it. Controling it is the key.

I think aiming is a big cause of TP. That said, if we eliminated scoring and installed judges to rate people on form, I'm sure we wouldn't eliminate performance anxiety. Would TP be far behind?

Bowmania

From: dean
Date: 10-Jun-18




As a musician, I am very familiar with performance anxiety. When i shot target rigs I sometimes had performance anxiety. TP is not nerves it is more of a metal condition, where you tell yourself not to do a simple wrong thing and you cannot stop yourself and do it anyway. I had target panic, shooting longbows, I have beaten back with the help of a target coach that I crossed paths with. There are certain situations that can make it come back to a degree, I try to avoid those situations. When that occurs I have to back peddle to regain my bearings. I also a had a two year battle with focal dystonia playing guitar, that is a dysfunctional tension that blocks nerve pathways. For classical guitarists it can start in the neck and run into the back lower shoulder and arm pit area which then tightens up the right hand. In a way focal dystonia is sort of a TP, but the blocked pathways are in your brain. For some a simple re-wiring works, some a change in how they think about a shot, others need something more procedural or mechanical. For me the TP came on when I was shooting a much lighter bow than normal, but i was also in a stress situation with crude and rude compound shooters, that should have arrested for what they were saying to my wife and daughter at a 3d shoot. They were also cheating on their scores, they knew that I caught them. Most of my target panic left after I drew a 150 pound Jennings Elephant bow back a number of times and a number ways both left and right handed at another shoot. The big crude and lewd jerk with his scrawny side kick were also there. He came up called me something rude and said, "Let me show you the right way to draw that bow." The sound of his shoulder shredding was music to my ears. They left. Later the target coach gave me a simple procedure that was working for me, after which, he pointed to a deer target that was a very long shot and said, "It is just a target, it doesn't care if you miss and you don't either." I hit.

From: David A.
Date: 10-Jun-18




Phil, Draven and limbwalker (and anyone else who wants to comment), do you reject the impact bracing hypotheis of Joel Turner as the prime cause of TP?

From: Dan Jones
Date: 10-Jun-18




Draven: I'm not sure that I understand your question above about "who or what I couldn't blame" and so I had to switch hands. I don't "blame" anyone or anything for the target panic I had. Based on my lengthy experience with the panic I simply came to the conclusion that the cause of the panic I experienced was not mental. I came back to Fred Bear's definition in the first edition of the Archer's Bible: target panic is a problem caused by the eye triggering the shot before the mind can control it.

I'm not knowledgeable enough about eye/hand coordination problems to explain what exactly the problem is or why it occurred. I can only say that I've shot right handed for a number of years now without experiencing the panic. I suspect that a different sight picture has made that possible, but I don't know that for certain.

I can tell you that many years of frustrating effort to overcome the panic using all of the techniques that I ever came across produced no lasting, tangible results.

From: Draven
Date: 10-Jun-18




"Draven, (I address this to you because I don't see were Phill said it) who cares what it is, if we can point a finger on what triggers it AND THEN NOT DO THAT BEHAVIOR. Because it's mental, if we knew WHAT it is, we couldn't point a lazor at the spot and kill the cells that cause it like cancer. Cancer is not supposed to be there. God gave us TP so we wouldn't be bored on the LW. That's why I say that different forms are more prone to TP than others. DavidA mentions lack of bact tension and snap shooting.

I see a big difference in performance anxiety and TP. PA is easy to get rid of and TP is like being an alcohlic, once you have it you always have it. Controling it is the key.

I think aiming is a big cause of TP. That said, if we eliminated scoring and installed judges to rate people on form, I'm sure we wouldn't eliminate performance anxiety. Would TP be far behind?"

Aiming is not a problem and it was never a problem. Its importance in the shooting sequence is the problem. Some are wired to judge their performance through result, some are wired that the way you perform will bring the result. First category will miss 10 times in a row will start to modify their behaviour - they learn to be anxious via classical conditioning because they have no answer to their problem: how to solve HIS misses in any situation. There is no recipe, accept that performance in archery is about management of misses not the number of x on your sheath. You can't solve this with a laser, you have to change an entire way of how the society works: to be better than others, not to be a better you. This last sentence it is a hint of what I would have to say about your idea with judges for form and eliminating the score. If you are not changing the mentality you solve nothing with score elimination.

From: dean
Date: 10-Jun-18




Switching hands allows different pathways in the brain to control the shot. I know someone that switched hands and had good luck at first and then developed the short draw panic release soon after the switch seemed to be completely learned. ''the eye triggering the shot'' that is exactly what I had. That is mental or it is frustrating enough to get mental. Byron Fergusson said it is the fear of missing the target, that is also correct. Another said that the eye sees the line up and declares to the brain ''job finished, let her fly'' is also correct. Target shooters cannot get themselves to get the pin to settle on the target like my old acquaintance PAA pro Glen Adler had so they release as the pin is passing over the target or they get blocked off to the side of the target. In my case it was extreme rage and not wanting to miss because it gave the a--holes fuel to harass us even more. Certain shooting rhythms are more difficult, some can execute a perfect shot when they have no intentions of holding, others need to hold or they lose control of the entire process so they need to way mechanically control themselves. I am good up to three seconds of hold if I think I am intensionally going to go for a longer hold than that most of the time i blow up at three seconds. Of course, I am a much better game shot if I do not hold at all. Perhaps the greatest cause of target panic is talking about target panic.

From: Dan Jones
Date: 10-Jun-18




Dean: If I shoot left handed with my eyes open with the arrow anchored below my dominant left eye, I have the panic. If I close my eyes, I can draw and hold with no panic sensation whatsoever until my muscles tire. That suggests to me that my dominant left eye is triggering my brain to release. I don't see how that can be a mental problem except insofar as the loss of control causes a loss of confidence in one's ability to shoot an arrow, which doubles the problem.

Shooting right handed, I anchor under the non-dominant eye and in my sight picture I am looking across the arrow and not down the arrow. Has that blocked the panic on the right side? I don't know but that's my guess, and about 99% of what you read about target panic is probably just that - guesses - some more far-fetched than others.

From: David A.
Date: 10-Jun-18




Well, Joel Turner says he is not guessing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWq2Qpq9reA

From: babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 10-Jun-18




Holy crap. I am nervous just reading this

From: Dan Jones
Date: 10-Jun-18




David A. In a very long thread on Trad Gang upwards of 10 years ago Turner said that target panic was caused by the pressure of the draw weight of the bow upon the fingers of the drawing hand - i.e. the human body seeks to free itself from pressure exerted upon it. More recently, Turner says that target panic is caused by apprehension of the recoil caused by the release of an arrow. As Yogi Berra said, you can look it up.

From: Glynn
Date: 10-Jun-18




How it is caused makes no difference whatsoever.

In this thread I read that if one person can be helped then it is worth it to put the information out there. Joel Turner has helped thousands of people go from NOT being able to control a shot to shooting whatever archery discipline they care to.

What you describe in your shooting is straight up TP. Some people change hands, some change equipment, (trad to compound), release aids, etc. These are the actual "bandaids".

TP is a mental thing, Joel teaches a way to mentally address it.

From: dean
Date: 10-Jun-18




If the eye tells the brain time to shoot and the brain listens and you react, short of anchor or off target and cannot stop it, that is mental. If you get mad and throw your bow at the target, that would be emotional. A glitch in the wiring, a bad fuse, a major 'oops'. Lots of terms apply. I was in the exact same place you are. Anyone that has Tp in any of its nasty forms is a mental case and needs therapy, but this is way beyond what any shrink could deal with. "So you cannot come anchor and hit the target, how do you feel about that?" That won't cure it. I corrected it without changing hands. I ended up going left handed after I tore the meniscus ligament in my middle finger, long holding with a 96 pound bow. It eventually, after a couple of years, healed well enough to allow me to shoot limited right hand again.

From: cch
Date: 10-Jun-18




It's amazing what you can learn in 10 years. Joel is continually learning and refining his teachings.

From: Glynn
Date: 10-Jun-18




cch and I are maybe biased because we happen to know Joel personally.

He is the kind of guy everyone wants to be friends with and is dedicated to helping people with whatever kind of shooting they are troubled in. Before I ever took his course or mentioned that I might, he picked up the phone from a 1000 miles away and talked to me for 30 minutes.

There are some good guys in the archery world, some here on this thread in fact. Joel Turner is one of the good guys.

I got an email today from him about youth 4-H archery that he is heavily involved in, our future. He cares.

More importantly, there are some reading this who are wondering about how they are going to make it through the 3-D season or be able to make a hunting shot this fall.

Could be some help out there. Worked for me immediately.

From: Dan Jones
Date: 10-Jun-18




Turner's approach certainly appears to have helped numerous people deal with target panic, and that's good. I don't question that at all. I also understand the evolution of his work. WhatI do question is whether his explanation of the cause or causes of target panic can accurately be called "scientific."

I don't agree that the cause of target panic makes no difference whatsoever. Identifying the source of a problem or malady seems like a good place to begin a course of treatment - or at least that's how modern medicine proceeds.

From: RonG
Date: 10-Jun-18

RonG's embedded Photo



From: Glynn
Date: 10-Jun-18




I can't speak for Joel, I'm guessing at that point or in that conversation that pain or discomfort of any kind at the shot was where he figured the anticipation or flinch came from. Weight on the fingers, string hitting the face or nose, the bow's reaction and possibly even the result (missed arrow) were causing chagrin of some sort. Things that might cause the brain to want to shortcut around the event.

There are also a lot of ways it manifests itself, holding off target, not coming to anchor or even half draw, as well as jerking outright or other pre shot anticipatory movement.

From: David A.
Date: 10-Jun-18




I'm not discounting the braing for impact hypothesis as at least one of the causes of TP. I just don't think it is the only one or even the main one necessarily.

If bracing for impact is THE cause or even a major cause, why would closing one's eyes allow many to almost instantly cure TP at leas as far as some of the symptoms such as not being able to get to full draw or hold as one likes or even get a comple shot sequence and good release?

From: Dan Jones
Date: 10-Jun-18




David A. Your question immediately above is absolutely the right one to ask. I can shoot beautifully left handed . . . with no sensation whatsoever of target panic . . . as long as my eyes are closed. Presumably the same impulse to free myself of the pressures of full draw or the apprehension of the release impact would be present shooting with my eyes closed and would induce target panic . . . except that it doesn't.

The same question can be asked about switching hands - i.e. if these are the causes of the panic,why haven't I experienced the panic shooting right handed?

Since all archers experience the pressure of full draw and the impact of release, why do some never experience target panic?

I think that very little is known about the cause, or, more likely, the causes of target panic. One obstacle to be overcome is the simplistic idea that in every case it's just a "mental problem" that can be conquered if you just try hard enough.

From: okiebones
Date: 10-Jun-18




I think Turner is full of crap, personally. Believe I've told him so in so many words.

From: 2 bears
Date: 10-Jun-18




If your eye triggers the brain how is that not mental?Your eye is stronger than your brain? It all sounds like the same thing to me. TP fear of missing. No target (blind bale) no fear. You can trick the brain for a while by closing your eyes,switching hands,clicker,whatever but most brains figure it out. Some quicker than others. Whatever it is we are not in control of the shot.Maybe it can't be proved why but until you are in total control under all conditions it don't go away.>>>----> Ken

From: Draven
Date: 10-Jun-18




“One obstacle to be overcome is the simplistic idea that in every case it's just a "mental problem" that can be conquered if you just try hard enough”

The problem is in the head but most of the time trying hard enough doesn’t cut it because that thing that made hou flip was there before archery. We are the result of our life experiences. Trying to solve the issue without taking in consideration the whole is setting the “cure” on the failure path. You can work on it just when you know who you are and with what you are dealing. You have a control-freak behaviour, learn to prioritize things. You are perfectionist? Learn that perfect is not all the time efficient for all the situations. And so on. This is how I see it.

From: David A.
Date: 11-Jun-18




Well, in Joel's defense - even if his theory is incorrect - his remedies are largely valid IMO.

2bears, yes I largely agree. Switching from field points to more expensive broadheads causes me some anxiety even shooting alone in my backyard presumedly because I really really don't want to miss with the more expensive broadheads esp. when I shoot outside my normal "can't miss" distance. I'm going to experiment by having a steel plate with a 12" circle cut out to shoot at just to make things harder for myself.

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 11-Jun-18




DavidA, walk on this 4X4 lying on the ground for 12 feet. Now walk between two 4 story buildings on the same 4X4. Risk and reward.

I think we can all agree that aim is the cause of TP. And as I write ON THE LW I relize just how stupid I am.

Let's try again. In cases mentioned above, where guys with TP can draw back and hold on target with their eyes closed, but can't with eyes open, we can agree that aiming is the problem or at very least the catalyst for TP. If we could figure how the aiming triggers the TP, I think we'd have a simple cure. It's a mental thing so we can't.

I try to break it down to something simple - it's just a habit. It get's worse the more we do it. As I said in my first post it deals with the conscious, subconscious and self-image. Once you have the subconscious and the self-image telling the conscious what to do you, have a habit to break. If you try to shoot your self out of it, it just gets worse - stronger self-image. Breaking bad habits and installing good habits is not that hard it just takes time.

The feather to the nose (FTTN) is just a bandaid and in my opinion not as good as a clicker. I run into people that complain about FTTN and accuracy. When I see a video of how they shoot I see they're moving their head to the feather. As stated above muscles are lazy.

Bowmania

From: Dan Jones
Date: 11-Jun-18




2Bears (and others): You ask if the eye is "stronger" than the brain. Isn't it the eye that aims at a target and signals the brain NOW! to release the arrow? Isn't the eye primary and the brain secondary?

My guess is that my version of the panic - and many other archers' version of the panic - is rooted in the eye completing the aim and signaling the brain before I've reached full draw. It seems to be a timing problem between the eye and the brain, which is what Fred Bear said many years ago. And I believe he spoke from experience since I think he switched from right to left at some point.

How does one fix the timing glitch? How does one stop the eye from sending the brain the NOW signal before full draw has been reached? The closest I've come is to look at the riser till full draw but even that didn't lead to complete control.

I've also tried the Turner approach numerous times - use shot sequence/quit the subconscious release/start a conscious release process/use mantra to reach release point/clicker or feather to nose as trigger=fully controlled shot.

The only problem is . . . the arrow is long gone before the clicker clicks or the feather touches the nose.

From: Draven
Date: 11-Jun-18




"I think we can all agree that aim is the cause of TP"

I don't agree with this. If the aiming was the cause of TP the cavemen using "intuitive" aiming would have been crippled long before and we would not have this conversation now. Evolution is harsh and the crippled do not survive. Trying to control the outcome based on aiming system while ignoring the other components of the shooting sequence is what cripples the shooters. The culprit is the urge to control something using just a fraction of the shooting cycle, not the aiming. This urge is result of a personality trait: shyness, self deprecation, fear of failure, anxiety - pick your poison.

From: Draven
Date: 11-Jun-18




PS Your clicker is a bandaid too, you just don't know because it comes with the tool. You force the shooter to take in consideration all the parts of the shooting cycle. That's the role of the clicker - same as the feathers afterall.

From: Draven
Date: 11-Jun-18




"How does one fix the timing glitch? How does one stop the eye from sending the brain the NOW signal before full draw has been reached? The closest I've come is to look at the riser till full draw but even that didn't lead to complete control."

Override your way of thinking. Nothing is executed without a thought if an intention is driving it - find that meaningful thought for you that will force a change of habit. Using a parallel, you are trying to break the link between the light bulb and Pavlov's dog there. You will not break it unless you become something else than a dog.

From: Fletch
Date: 11-Jun-18




“We play the way we practice.”

Have TP? Need to adjust practice / training.

From: Draven
Date: 11-Jun-18




"Phil, Draven and limbwalker (and anyone else who wants to comment), do you reject the impact bracing hypotheis of Joel Turner as the prime cause of TP?"

David, it's complicated to say Yes or No. Who's the shooter and what he shoots? For a normal, efficient and proficient intuitive shooting bowhunter the impact bracing hypothesis is rubbish. His mind is locked on the prey, his body follows his intention, there is nothing left to worry about the body reaction when the bow is shot. IF the archer has his mind to other things than to make the kill, impact bracing is as good as any other possible thought someone can come with. I say possible, not necessary real. Now imagine the shooter is using a shotgun or whatever weapon using powder you want. Depending on how powerful the recoil is, there will be maybe that "impact bracing". But IMO this is something that is no more an issue until you get accustomed with the weapon and you know how to use it.

From: Dan Jones
Date: 11-Jun-18




Fletch: Ah . . . if it were only that easy. Do you have or have you had the damn panic?

From: Fletch
Date: 11-Jun-18




Nope. Never had it. I have had anxiety at a big match a few times. I adjusted my training to overcome it.

Training is just not physical ,but mental. It includes reading the philosophy of WINNERS, and how they approached it, then you use visualization drills to address and reinforce it.

I’ve written before, but I come from from a Smallbore (22 Lr) 3-position rifle shooting background. I learned how to compete in that discipline. I did well enough. 10 years ago, I started bullseye pistol shooting. I applied the same approach to that discipline. Did ok with it. I applied the same approach to trad archery when I started 6 years ago. Doing ok with 3d shooting, but looking to continue the journey.

I recently read an article by a gold medal rifle shooter. He wrote (sic) “...that it takes 3-4 years to learn how to shoot, 3-4 years longer to learn how to win, and even longer to do it when it counts.” He was ( he has passed) a big proponent of mental trading and preparation, not just “ shooting.”

Everyone is different, but one thing I do with archery/3d ( and other shooting disciplines) is to “ shoot the course in my mind first ( and multiple times) before a match. Then I shoot it mentally several times afterwards. I take notes of what was done right and “ less than right” .

I am a huge believer in the shot process, and that a good shot is the result of good everything else ( equipment, stance, target impact focus, draw/ release/ follow through etc) . A good shot is the reward for good shot sequence and technique. It is that simple.

I do have empathy for any shooter with a hurdle to overcome. Most times it is mental, or lack of dedication to what is needed. I have a friend who would do a friendly ( but honest) gripe to me and others that I shot ( rifle days) better than he did. The simple fact was I practiced a hell of a lot more, and smarter than he did. It was sort of like the saying that it took a person “ 25 years to become an overnight success. “.

Read about the incredible physical trading regime that Wayne Gretzky did. He outworked everyone else year ‘round to be a “the great.”

If a person has a mental glitch, it could be training, practice methods, commitment of the shooter, coaching, etc. probably it’s a bit of all of them. It is easy to make excuses. Tough to break through them, BUT it can be done ( and you can find stories all day long about people who do it, and not just in sports.

My grandmother in law ( now passed) is one of my heroes. She came over to the USA from Czechoslovakia in post WW1 Europe at age 6. Family had NOTHING. Came to America and raised a great family. Worked 44 years as a shoe maker leather cutter ( Endicott Johnson) in Binghamton NY. Full of life, smart and funny. She had one of the strongest constitutions of any person I have met. She dropped out of 8th grade to take care of her mortally ill mother and father- and literally raised the family herself as a teenager. Started working full time the same time to support the family. She NEVER complained. She was one of the funniest people I’ve ever met. How do you not get motivated when you know someone that that?

What does that have to do with target panick? Nothing and everything. Archery is a hobby. A sport. There are millions of people who have had miserable lives, far worse than my Gm-I-L. When you do a mental comparison ( training), you have to wonder why in the world is a person nervous about a match, or having TP? How bad is your life if that is a concern. I can’t help to feel this way whenever I watch something about WW11 concentration camps or any major event where there was widespread horror. How in the world can I have a bad day, when countless others starved to death, or faced a hopeless existence? It puts things in perspective.

Target panic? This is worst than starving , freezing in bare feet waiting for “ your turn.” Ok this is extreme, but it yanks you/ me / anyone to even consider TP should occur. Archery is a happy event. For some reason, a person/archer puts a mental block. I believe that “ a far worse condition” comparison sobers you up very quickly, and at least allows me to embrace the opportunity to even COMPETE in a friendly venue. I guess it boils down to a “ suck it up, buttercup.” approach.

Is this too harsh? I don’t think so. It is mental toughness. Develop it. Have TP? Really? Would you rather be living in Stalingrad or the Warsaw ghetto during Ww2?

Mental toughness means you have to directly address the situation, and have a pragmatic approach to power through the situation. Part of it is to create a system or process so to shooter can work his/her way through TP. I didn’t say it was easy, but it up to the shooter to create a mental bridge. When we read about the struggles other people have endured, I feel it unlocks the mental block of TP, and makes it (TP) seem ridiculous- and therefore able to be overcome.

That’s one reason my grandmother in law is one of motivators. Surround yourself with those t6pe of people, and it will raise your abilities @nd change a person’s attitude- for the good. It is the “ learning how to win, and doing it when it counts “ part of the process.

My 2c. You don’t have to agree.

From: Flash
Date: 11-Jun-18




Impact bracing/shot anticipation is real. Some people naturally have very little, some it's enough to effect their impact. You can do a very easy test that JT uses to see how much someone reacts. I'm still wanting to know why Frank isn't confident enough to hunt with a stickbow.

From: K Cummings
Date: 11-Jun-18




"Phil, Draven and limbwalker (and anyone else who wants to comment), do you reject the impact bracing hypotheis of Joel Turner as the prime cause of TP?"

I tend to reject it, at least as the primary cause. If the "impact bracing" theory were accurate, it would still be present when shooting with your eyes closed.

For the vast majority of those suffering from TP it isn't. Take away the view of the target, and the TP goes away. That tells me that the primary cause has something to do with the way your brain reacts to a visual stimulation.

Unlike "recoil anticipation" (or impact bracing) with a firearm, "target panic" is a different animal in my opinion.

Unlike "target panic" those that suffer from "recoil anticipation" have it even when closing their eyes because the physical shock from recoil and report are still present.

One is due to the anticipation or fear of a physical assault (loud report or recoil) to the body, and the other is due to the fear of an unsatisfactory result.

KPC

From: Flash
Date: 11-Jun-18




I agree with you, some people's reaction isn't enough to change impact. There are multiple types of panic.

From: cch
Date: 11-Jun-18




With your eyes closed your brain can ready itself for the impact because it knows when you are going to let go of the string. It isn't trying to time the sight picture with the release so it can be ready to brace.

I have never tried shooting a gun with my eyes closed, I need to try that as I have terrible TP with a gun.

From: Draven
Date: 11-Jun-18




"Eyes closed" training it is the "next" level of learning balance and subtle things about the "form" - body mechanics of the execution - not to trick the brain because you can't trick it. But it is interesting to read different opinions.

From: Phil
Date: 11-Jun-18




David A

No I don't support Joels explanation as to the etiology of target panic.

One aspect common to all target panic sufferers is a marked degrading of the coordination and integration of sensory inputs from peripheral nerve afferents into the command and execution of voluntary efferent muscular movements. The pathophysiology of the motor dysfunction is exacerbated by significant changes to the quality of compensatory synaptic plasticity.

From: cch
Date: 11-Jun-18




Phil,

Can you explain that in terms I might be able to understand.

From: Draven
Date: 11-Jun-18




Looking forward for expanation. He just said that through learning (bad and personal interpretation) you screwed yourself.

From: dean
Date: 11-Jun-18




TP is caused by a total lack objective reality and integrated logic.

From: Missouribreaks
Date: 11-Jun-18




Why panic over an arrow hitting a target? Panic, really?

From: 2 bears
Date: 11-Jun-18




Dan Jones and others with that line of thought. Let me try again. The brain not the eye should have the final sayso. Example= Eye sees huge desert,good looking woman,fill in the blanks. The brain better figure out right quick the results of letting the eye trigger/control you. The brain is the computer & the decision maker. Without it the other senses are dead.All of the so called fixes are bandaids,feather to nose,clicker,and so forth. With the brain in control you can release,let down,hold at full draw and even change targets, if the brain makes the decision. When the brain says release nothing else can stop it without the brain changing its mind before the mussels follow the order. Just my 2¢ worth. >>>----> Ken

From: Fletch
Date: 11-Jun-18




Lones Wigger ( 2 time Olympic gold medalist in rifle) on not cracking under match pressure.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/10/how-to-shoot-great-under-pressure- tips-from-lones-wigger/

Practice, preparation, mental toughness.

From: David A.
Date: 12-Jun-18




"DavidA, walk on this 4X4 lying on the ground for 12 feet. Now walk between two 4 story buildings on the same 4X4. Risk and reward."

That's why I was ticked off being even a bit nervous switching from field points to broadheads while shooting at a small backstop set up against a brick wall. But when I see my own weakness I try to strengthen that weakness. Hence, skydiving, bungee jumping, diving with sharks, and w/regard to broadheads, shooting at steel plates with cut outs. If you have perfect form, aim and release what can go wrong? Cheerish the pressure...

https://youtu.be/Q5_OMhVIrxo

From: Phil
Date: 12-Jun-18




cch Draven, My apologies for the technical language in my post. It was my day job for over 30 years until I retired. I still do some teaching and research support and in return I get access to the Neurosciences lab to explore my own research interests. I've been investigating a small cohort of archers with target panic for nearly two years.

Target panic generally manifests itself in one of two ways, the first is an inability to produce a task specific movement to full completion ...in other words the inability to move parts of your body in ways you want them to move. The second is a loss of control of the timing of an event, in other words things are happening when you don't want them to happen.

When humans perform a task, there's an orchestrated sequence of events starting with many different types of sensory neurons sending information to the brain, these are sensory afferents. Now we have to remember sending an arrow from a bow is a deliberate act of choice .. we choose to do it. So when we pick up a bow, nock an arrow and begin to draw the string, the control and regulation for that action is centered around the Basal Ganglia. It's the basal ganglia in conjunction with the motor cortex that sends instructions via the peripheral nervous system that instructs motor neurons to move body segments and to move specific joints to specific positions .. these are motor efferents.

Between the sensory afferents and the motor efferents there is a myriad of inhibitory systems that makes sure both functions are regulated and managed to ultimately ensure the task is completed to satisfaction.

In target panic, the inhibitory mechanisms are disrupted. The frequency of some signals going to muscles are compromised as is the duration of the signal. Under normal circumstances the brain will attempt to find an alternative method of regulatory control (neural plasticity). In archers with target panic, neural plasticity appears to be somehow restricted.

So that's what I,ve been investigating for the past couple of years ... you can believe me or not it's up to you .... but now go back and read Franks original post

From: Phil
Date: 12-Jun-18




David A you asked this question ....

... "Phil, Draven and limbwalker (and anyone else who wants to comment), do you reject the impact bracing hypotheis of Joel Turner as the prime cause of TP?"

David, I don't agree with Joel's hypothesis that Target Panic is a response to impact bracing, but I don't reject his approach because future investigation and research may prove him correct.

What I would like to say in the strongest possible terms,is I completely support Joel's approach to alleviating the symptoms of target panic. What Joel has achieved very very successfully, is to externalize an internal neural process with the use of the clicker. Using the clicker approach creates an external trigger to which the brain can respond and react.

..and to those who suppress target panic by closing their eyes to shoot ... there's a quite simple explanation. By closing your eyes, a huge chunk of sensory afferents are no longer coming into the brain. The nerve conduction velocity of the photoreceptors along the optic nerve are some of the fastest in the human body plus, the movement of each eye is controlled by 6 muscles in each eye that have some of the highest concentration of sensory neurons of any muscles in the body ... so with all that missing, large chunks of neuro-computational activity is no longer necessary.

From: Fletch
Date: 12-Jun-18




If TP is fear of a bad result ( not hitting the target) why not tr6 a drill reversing the outcome?

Give the TP shooter 3 arrows and shoot at at a target 15 yards away. Tell him to MISS the target on all shots. That way, a miss is achieving the desired end point. Take 5 steps back, repeat. Take 5 steps back, repeat. My guess it will condition the mind to associate a shot process with a success endpoint ( although a miss).

Next is to have the shooter repeat the drill and instruct him to “ miss with authority” . Even close his eyes and miss with authority.

The lesson to be taken away from the drill is that by not hitting the target, by intent, NOTHING bad happened to the shooter. No one took his birthday away, stole his shoes, etc. repeat the drill often ( daily for a few weeks?). My guess the shooter will eventually will WANT to hit the target. When he says that, say, “ Go ahead., but shoot with authority. “. If/ when a bad shot/ miss is made, the reply is, “ See nothing bad happened. No one took away your birthday, or shoes..”

Go bad to the missing on purpose drill. I wonder if a mental bridge could be created, associating “ missing on purpose” and “ trying to hit, and still missing” with the same outcome... nothing bad happened to the shooter as a result of his actions.

From: K Cummings
Date: 12-Jun-18




"Target panic generally manifests itself in one of two ways, the first is an inability to produce a task specific movement to full completion ...in other words the inability to move parts of your body in ways you want them to move. The second is a loss of control of the timing of an event, in other words things are happening when you don't want them to happen."

Phil:

Much of what you posted is way beyond my level of understanding, but this particular part actually reminds me of what I learned in psychology class many years ago about how people react to stress.

I learned there are three basic responses to stress:

1. Fight

2. Flight

3. Freeze

In your first example, "the inability to move parts of your body" sounds like a "freeze" response to a stressor. In other words, you body freezes up in response to the stress of hitting your target.

In your second example, when "things are happening when you don't want them to happen," sounds like the "flight" response to a stressor. In other words, shooting before you want is your body actually fleeing from what is causing the stress.

By closing your eyes, or shooting at a blank bale, or even just shooting into the air, where there is no specific target, you take away the stressor, therefore your body (or brain) feels no need to freeze or flee.

Does that make sense?

KPC

From: cch
Date: 12-Jun-18




Thank you Phil, I can understand that a little better. I wish you and Joel could get together to go over notes.

From: Phil
Date: 12-Jun-18




KPC what you say all makes perfect sense. Why I don't believe target panic is stress induced is that the effect of stress induced responses are global, (all parts of the body affected)but in target panic the changes are isolated and task specific.

Another thing we've measured in the lab was blood pressure and heart rate. Except for the fluctuations you'd reasonably expect to see as a result of having electrodes stuck all over you .. everything was within normal limits.

From: Draven
Date: 12-Jun-18




Thank you Phill, your explanation makes a lot of sense from the "mechanical" point of view or explains the "How?". What is not yet established is the "Why?" Each arrow shot out there is also an additional information for the brain. Why this learning process will make some people to get the TP? In my opinion "(target) panic" is the same as "instinctive (shooting)" - delusive words. One is not talking about extreme fear and the other is not talking about innate behaviour. Someone above was saying he almost had TP because of frustration - his wife was verbally aggressed by some archers who were cheating and on top of it in he was trying to shoot good scores. This is an extreme case I really would not want to happen to anybody, but speaks volumes for me. Is not fear of missing, is the lack of the solutions that will make someone to get stack into a "reality" where his brain has nothing to propose. This "reality" will be personalized - every TP shooter created his reality based on his thoughts, the ones he never talks about. Why KSL or Joel for that matter are right (even if for me Joel's brace for impact assumption is wrong)? Learning a process (understanding why you have to do what you do) will never put you in the "out of option" situation because you know that if you respect it you will send the arrow in the target.

From: K Cummings
Date: 12-Jun-18




"KPC what you say all makes perfect sense. Why I don't believe target panic is stress induced is that the effect of stress induced responses are global, (all parts of the body affected)but in target panic the changes are isolated and task specific.

Wouldn't the body determine what response is necessary based on the specific stressor?

In other words, if my hand gets too close to a hot stove, my initial reaction is to jerk my hand away, not run from the room.

KPC

From: Live2hunt
Date: 12-Jun-18




I believe it comes from multiple things, anger of a miss, shooting too long because your anger of a miss, trying to shoot great under pressure then getting mad because of missing the spot. These are thing that got me. When I shot compound, it seemed to come on all of a sudden like a freight train. I couldn't even bring the sight pin near the bulls eye without releasing. It is a mental thing big time. I can relax it by the shoot no shot method, but it rears it's teeth all the time. I'm better with it now shooting instinctive with a recurve, but most times I start shooting without releasing. Knowing you have it and then knowing how to subdue it is what you need, not a device.

From: Liquid Tension
Date: 12-Jun-18




My belief is that all these new gurus stole knowledge &’pay no homage whatsoever to guys like Henderson & Cardinale who forgot more than most of these guys know. At least Rod Jenkins acknowledges Cardinale in his teachings. Cardinale ‘s Bridge program still the best cure & test of your Sequence for Panic. Most archers are too lazy to do it, you will fail repeatedly, so they buy quick cure nonsense bandaids that solve panic for a few days. The absolute worse thing you can do is continue to shoot targets with panic. Lots of definitions of what it is but very few on how to cure it.

From: David A.
Date: 12-Jun-18




Fletch, that was an awesome creative post. An ex girlfriend of mine kept screwing up her life with bad decisions so I advised her to do the opposite of what she thought she should do in any decision making situation. Unfortunately, she did the opposite of my advise and so nothing changed...well, anyway I sometimes adhere to your suggestion and miss with authority...always a good lesson, btw.

From: David A.
Date: 12-Jun-18




Yes, error and missing can be your best teacher if you analyse what went wrong because the reason you missed is instructive. I don't worry about where the arrow is going, I worry about my form and shot sequence. For example, I don't want to be aiming too early. One can have many mantras to help this, but I prefer simple ones typically one or two words vs. a 7 step sequence itinerary. I definitely put this all under conscious mental control, similarly to what Joel Turner recommends. However, the actual timing of the release is less so.

The problem in hunting is that it is very easy to go completely brain dead. Less of a problem in tournament archery where you get to shoot a second arrow, etc.

From: dean
Date: 12-Jun-18




The brain is a fickle thing. Like Hill stated, too much thinking can be bad for concentration. On hunting seasons where I get lots of squirrel hunting and rabbit hunting in before deer season, shooting a deer in a reasonable confident range is not such a big deal. On years where i get no small game hunting before deer season, I do better just letting the first deer or two, no matter what they are, just mill around me while enjoy their company. After a lifetime of hunting with a bow, I can still get buck fever with my first exposure to a wild animal for the season. The odd part is when I am on canoe trips, I never get buck fever when in the presence of moose or the odd bear that comes around camp or pass the canoe portages. The possible intent of shooting runs on a completely different pathway than mere observing. Much like shooting broadhead arrows at a deer target with a concrete back stop is a completely different set of pathways than shooting broad heads at a deer target that has a dirt hill for a back stop, that is not buck fever, but the old fear of missing can become very real. A while back we tested broad heads in a silage bunker, the shooter could barely shoot, normally there was a stack of round bails in there, so he hung an old carpet and was still having a hard time. He missed, the arrow went over the the carpet, he missed bad, and the Ribtec broadhead stuck in the concrete with just a bit of compression at the head. I was amazed that it could do that. After the revelation of just how tough those Ribtec heads were, he had no trouble at all confidently putting arrow after arrow into the deer target. Next time I am out that way, I am going to take the above advise and just for fun blast a few junker arrows into the concrete from long ranges.

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 12-Jun-18




Listen to Aspirinbuster. You don't shoot aspirins out of the air if you have target panic.

From: David A.
Date: 12-Jun-18




Phil, re: your comments:

1) "Why I don't believe target panic is stress induced is that the effect of stress induced responses are global, (all parts of the body affected)but in target panic the changes are isolated and task specific."

This doesn't contradict stress may increase target panic. Even from minor target panic to extreme target panic.

2) "Another thing we've measured in the lab was blood pressure and heart rate. Except for the fluctuations you'd reasonably expect to see as a result of having electrodes stuck all over you .. everything was within normal limits."

So how are you testing increase in stress in the lab? You can't very well have a real hunting situation or tournament situation in that environs.

Also, how many test archers have been tested by you and what level of expertise do they have and do you categorise their levels of TP? Have you tested nonTP archers in the same test environment?

From: David A.
Date: 13-Jun-18




"David, I don't agree with Joel's hypothesis that Target Panic is a response to impact bracing, but I don't reject his approach because future investigation and research may prove him correct."

Seems this would be one of the easiest hypotheses to test. Higher wt. bows that create more "impact"/jarring should show more TP symptoms than lower wt. bows, for example. Some archers have frequently noted this, but I admit there may be a confounding effect. I.e., lower wt. bows may allow one to have better shooting form and that rather may be a more important influence than bracing for impact.

From: David A.
Date: 13-Jun-18




In exploring the causes of TP, one would really need to define what behaviours constitute TP as this would greatly influence one's conclusions based on personal experience, observation of TP in others, or lab testing.

For example, if one focuses on the inability to get to full draw, then I would predict archers with poor form or who use the Fred Asbell method of shooting would be more likely to demonstrate this problem. But please note in the case of more advanced golfers or guitarists who have good form or may we say good technique, they actually may be more susceptible to the "yips" and focal dystonia.

From: David A.
Date: 13-Jun-18




Just to add, please note high pressure situations seems to increase the "yips" in putting and perhaps focal dystonia symptoms in some guitarists. I don't have data on this, but am a guitarist and golfer. I have written a book of putting (unpublished) so I know a little bit about the putting yips.. Even participated in a golf swing biomechancial research program at the Kerlan Jobe Clinic where I was one of the test golfers all hooked up with electrodes combined with extremely high speed photography.

So all of this is of great interest...a very worth area of investigation and discussion.

From: Phil
Date: 13-Jun-18




David, thank you for your comments.

From: twostrings
Date: 13-Jun-18




And the neural activity generated by the gross motor control used to draw and hold, if holding is your pleasure, the bowstring is a big handful of chaff thrown at the precise motor activity that's trying to accomplish the finer points of your chosen form. Little wonder that it drives you crazy.

From: northerner
Date: 13-Jun-18




I had TP through the 90s when I shot 50-60 pound bows. I quit the sport for 15 years and then bought a 30# bow a couple of years ago to work through the TP. It's the same battle with this mild bow. I also shoot custom slingshots with 10-12# draw weights and battle TP in that sport too. It's a messy psych thing that is difficult to control.

All these TP posts sure help with the comfort. It's like a big online addiction meeting. It's seems like TP is an easy affliction to define but difficult to fix or even explain why it happens.

From: Bassman Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 13-Jun-18




My brother shot some whitetail with damon howatt hunter no problem.I was shooting some indoor winter league target shooting.Bare bow.He ask how i was doing,and said just ok.Then he tried.Worst case of target panic that i have ever seen.So i tried to help him. I had him shooting good at 15 yards with his eyes closed.Soon as he opened his eyes to shoot he came apart at the seams. Could not get past it.Now he shoots and hunts with a cross bow.I felt bad for him ,but could not help him.Bad problem that is very hard to get past.

From: Live2hunt
Date: 13-Jun-18




Northern and Bass, Like I stated above, the one big thing that helped me and may help you or your brother is to go out and shoot without releasing an arrow. I had TP so bad that if I drew without an arrow and that pin hit the target I would release. I had to do this technique for 2 weeks till my brain and body figured out what to do again. I still fight it from time to time with my recurve, but I know its there and I relax myself by drawing, holding, and not releasing but just let down and repeat.

From: tecum-tha Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 13-Jun-18




I think the explanation of Mike Linsin in the "push release" DVD was as close a it gets to the form of target panic I had/ sometimes still have. It is the Pavlow's dog theory of a triggered response by anticipation or visibility of the target. I came therefore to the conclusion: If you shoot intuitive (instinctive) not using a conscious gap or other aiming system, that this form of shooting must be trained different than sighted/system shooting. A sight shooter can still get TP, but I am no sight shooter and could care less about this style of shooting. When we first learn to shoot, the brain has no routine, as it is still learning. Over time it will develop a routine. This routine is repetition. And the right kind of repetition is good for learning, but the wrong kind of repetition leads quickly to TP. This wrong kind of repetition is shooting a lot of arrows (lets say more than 3 at a time) into groups from the same distance, onto the same target and from the same bodily position with the goal to shoot tight groups. This basically is the training system catering to sight/system shooters and gun shooters. Its goal is to allow the shooter to hold their aiming picture relative to the distance shot constantly during the shot and to hold the bow/gun still while the release is triggered (often with a trigger release). Shooting bad groups will give the following feedback: a tight group away from the intended point of impact will show that the sight picture is not the correct one. A tight group with flyers in the right spot will tell that the aiming picture is correct, but the execution of the shot lacked at the flyers.

For the instinctive shooter, this method has the problem of excessive repetition without the brain recognizing it is still learning something new. The opposite thing happens. After let's say the second shot you hit the spot, the next shot will be seen as an opportunity for the brain to optimize the shot sequence to become more efficient. This process happens subconscious (letting go before the anchor point is reached or just when you touch your anchor point). At a reasonable distance the result of this shot will be as good as shot 1 and 2. The brain has no learned it can shorten the shooting process successfully by just touching the anchor (not holding) or letting go just before the anchor point is reached. Next step is, that the brain will try to become even more efficient. It now lets the arrow go a little earlier than before and you will probably still be ok with the result. Next few shots it does this again to check and from there on it will continue to do so. Now, if there is no trainer or knowledgeable archer who can spot this right away or you train alone or you are self-taught, at the next sequence with the less than perfect form your groups will open up and you are not happy with your results. Now, since your brain thinks it does everything right, your automatic response normally is: I need to train more and thus need to shoot more arrows. By doing this, you are now on the super fast track to a very bad case of target panic. Another effect of this "becoming more efficient brain process" is, that sooner or later the visibility of the target will trigger your release. This will develop the more arrows you shot with the no longer correct archery form. How to ever get rid of it? Unless you develop amnesia, you will never get rid of it again. You have to relearn the shooting process as best as you can. The more severe the TP case, the harder this will be. The symptoms are the following: As soon as you see the target the arrow is usually gone. You may only come to a 4-6" draw anymore, before the arrow flies. You can pull your bow to anchor in front of a blank bale, a wall etc. You can pull to anchor without an arrow on. (Your brain associates the visibility of a target you want to hit with the process of releasing an arrow. First step will be to break the affiliation of visibility of the target (trigger) equals letting the arrow go (response). You tell yourself that you don't want to shoot and concentrate to hold your middle finger or index finger at your anchor point. Then you let down!!! You have to do this in front of a bigger target backstop, as arrows will be released at the beginning while you retrain yourself to pull and hold and let down. The connection of having an arrow on the bow and a target visible and pulling it back and actually shooting the arrow needs to be broken. A lighter draw weight bow is sometimes helpful during this process, but only because you will be able to concentrating better on the task at hand and you are less strained by the force of the bow. Another reason is, that you are used to not really holding the bow at its anchor from your previous form of shooting. If you are able to hold the bow with an arrow on in front of a target and to let it down, then the next step is to do this in front of other people. You need to learn that it is ok not to execute the shot even when other people are watching. Most shooters think that the other person expect you to shoot when you pull the bow back. Maybe just go to a 3D shoot with a friend and get to the stake and just pull the bow and let down while he watches or shoots.

More later...

From: twostrings
Date: 13-Jun-18




Holy Moley...

From: David A.
Date: 13-Jun-18




tacum-tha, great post and look forward to your other comments. I agree triggered response to target acquisition is definitely one of the prime causes of TP and arguably the most common cause. In the last few years of private teaching to those who have TP, I have advocated letting down on say half your "shots" and then decreasing that percentage over time as TP becomes less of an issue.

The other thing I have advocated over and over is stability. Stability at hold while you aim, while you release, and until the arrow hits the target. If the archer emphasises stability of correct form during the shot sequence and after it definitely is a big aid in defeating TP.

In fact, the single word "STABILISE" is one of my favourite mantras. Joel turner frequently talks about not shooting anything but a perfect arrow, and I agree. When I shoot a lot I tend to switch to the mantra "PERFECTION" which is the same thing but I can mentally include other things such as perfect anchor and so forth w/o having to mentally say those, I just know to do it along with stabilisation.

Other instructors like to say "HOLD HOLD HOLD" or "WAIT WAIT WAIT". All of these mantras can help to defeat the triggered response of releasing too early after the target is acquired or even begins to be focused on.

For bowhunters, I advocate aiming at but then letting down on game even that you don't want to harvest as well as inanimate targets. Letting down is a good habit to often employ. Of course, if your TP is so bad that you can't guarantee letting down w/o releasing, do NOT aim at any living animal that you don't want to harvest.

From: Draven
Date: 13-Jun-18




In kyudo training they have a possible way to avoid TP. They don’t train just body but also the mind. They consider there are psychological blocks that are held to be barriers to progress and stains on the mind. These are called "The Seven Barriers": 1 Happiness 2 Anger 3 Anxiety 4 Surprise 5 Sorrow 6 Fear 7 Thoughts All of these engendered by the mind, adversely affect the shooting. The feelings are result of our desires and fixations, conjured up in our own mind by the value we attach to external things. They are not inherent in the things themselves but are nothing more than the psychological baggage we bring with us in our training. The training idea? Learn to clear your mind by attachments. If you can’t you will have 7 ways to screw yourself up. Something to think about and why is so hard to put the finger on TP roots. Might sound BS for some, but maybe not for all.

From: David A.
Date: 14-Jun-18




With guitar I want a mind clear of thoughts except feelings. In golf and archery I'll opt for the Western way of shot process and specific mechanical thoughts albeit limited in number, preferably just one or two.The mind has not opted out, but rather consciously controls the shot process except around the moment of release. I bet the Japanese Olympic archers do also.

From: David A.
Date: 14-Jun-18




I would agree for master level in the various zen disciplines such as sitting meditation, calligraphy, tea ceremony, Shakuhachi, "fencing", sitting meditation, martial arts, and so forth the conscious mind needs to be quiet.

Good grief, imagine calligraphy not to mention tea ceremony masters having the yips...

From: limbwalker
Date: 14-Jun-18




"I have written a book of _________ (unpublished) so I know a little bit about __________ "

An indisputable qualification if I've ever heard one.

From: woodsman
Date: 14-Jun-18




Well it seems there is a great number of folks here who have all the answers about tp..

How about each one of you write your perfect practice routine that will cure tp...

I look forward your input, as I know everyone suffering with tp does.

Thanks

Chris

From: dean
Date: 14-Jun-18




With every new piece of guitar music there is a period of analysis of the music and the mechanics and techniques to make it work. I do three pieces of Tommy Emmanuel, 'questions' 'to B of not to B' and 'Old Photographs' along with the the Bach and other pieces like the Britten Nocturnal. I do not play with that Tommy technique so I rewrite it all to fit classical guitar technique. The goal is always to get to that auto-pilot level. I would like to get my 45 yard accuracy to that auto-pilot level. So far my automatic secondary 'imaginary' aiming points are at that level at 24 yards, the curb in my back yard. I got to get out more, I will later when things hopefully cool down. I shot last night with a gal that most would say had TP pretty bad. Going from casual target compound shooting to a recurve with plans on hunting deer for the first time. Short draw, fast draw ending with a fly away release, bow sling hand ripping short draw to the max. This person wanted help and was in panic mode. All that was needed was a refresher course on what the correct shot was and how it felt. An intense hour of going through things, a glass of ice tea and then another hour of good shooting at my foam deer from close in to the curb. I don't think was really TP at all. She just got something in her head and things got out of control for a bit. She was hoping my wife would help, but she got me. Like guitar study and playing, archery is a bit of both structured mechanics and auto pilot.

From: Draven
Date: 14-Jun-18




Perfect routine? Don’t judge your shooting based on where the arrow lands when you are training. Split your session in “learning time” aka focus on form and “pratice time” keeping in mind that good form sends the arrow where you want. When you got this way of thinking in your brain you can do whatever you want without worrying for the fliers. They will happen but you have the correcting mechanism in place: your form - whatever form means.

From: Draven
Date: 14-Jun-18




PS Archimedes said: “ Give me a solid spot on which to stand and I shall move the Earth.” For archer his solid spot is his form. Without it all can happen. It is just my opinion though.

From: Liquid Tension
Date: 14-Jun-18




This may not be popular & I could careless. Once again after all this nonsense the only way I know how to beat & keep Panic at bay is thru Len Cardinale ‘s Bale & Bridge Program. It works a 1000% of the time if done correctly. Most of this junk is just a ripoff of Lens & Henderson’s work from years ago. You have to ingrain a shot Sequence, immerse yourself in the Aim, & let the shot break.

Please if your a new Archer & need help go to source & for God Sakes stop trying to shoot your way thru panic. Get on the Bale work out a Sequence,& ever so slowly test it on the Bridge. If a part of your Sequence breaks back to Bale to fix it. Then try again with Bridge Ptogram. The end goal in Lens system is being FREE TO AIM. This means when you commit there are no other thoughts of your Sequence in your head but what you want hit. I repeat no other thoughts but a 1000% immersed in Aiming & the shot breaks. This will be the most rewarding thing you ever do when completed.

I’ve read complete & utter nonsense on here that there’s no subconscious release. Complete BS! A Sniper does not know when his rifle breaks cause he’s in his aim it is the same thing.Imho it takes a year. Don’t cheat, don’t shoot targets, enter tournaments, & don’t shoot a deer in the a.. with full blown panic. There are great discussions on Lens program from great coaches on Archery Talk that I was apart of. Just copy & paste. This thread besides a few posts is doing more harm than good for Archers who may actually want real Help.

From: Phil
Date: 14-Jun-18




Thank you for those pearls of wisdom Liquid Tension, so a two year scientific investigation into the mechanisms of target panic using state of the art neuro-science is junk. Fair enough.

while you're here liquid tension, how about you show me the evidence that any part of the execution of the shot sequence is subconscious.

From: woodsman
Date: 14-Jun-18




Thanks Chris.. Sounds great. I have to agree about Len. His tp program has been the most helpful that I've used. I know there's a huge amount of knowledge here, would like to hear everyone's idea's.

Draven... Do you feel the Bale is helpful in establishing good form?? Also, What do you think is the best way to introduce a target??

chris

From: woodsman
Date: 14-Jun-18




Phil... Sounds like a lot of useful information was discovered. What did this investigation conclude the cure for tp is?? I know lots of folks out there that would like some help..

chris

From: Liquid Tension
Date: 14-Jun-18




Phil why don’t you tell me how hooking electrodes up to an Archer with panic will help the average Joe? Also once I commit & start my Motor immersing in Aiming my release is subconscious. I have no idea when the shot will break I just keep pulling. Your studies offer the Average Joe Zero help. I can take an Archer & offer him a Real system with tangible results not high tech wizardry. With all due respect I doubt you know more about the shot than Henderson or Cardinale. Again this a proven method not gizmos or mantras of self help. What you have here is guys changing terms & coming up with nonsense systems for $$$. Guys can google Lens system & with a little guidance help themselves for FREE!

From: Liquid Tension
Date: 14-Jun-18




Phil why don’t you tell me how hooking electrodes up to an Archer with panic will help the average Joe? Also once I commit & start my Motor immersing in Aiming my release is subconscious. I have no idea when the shot will break I just keep pulling. Your studies offer the Average Joe Zero help. I can take an Archer & offer him a Real system with tangible results not high tech wizardry. With all due respect I doubt you know more about the shot than Henderson or Cardinale. Again this a proven method not gizmos or mantras of self help. What you have here is guys changing terms & coming up with nonsense systems for $$$. Guys can google Lens system & with a little guidance help themselves for FREE!

From: Phil
Date: 14-Jun-18




So .. how about you show me the evidence that any part of the execution of the shot sequence is subconscious.

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 14-Jun-18




I don't have time for that nonsense. I put a clicker on my bow 30 years ago and it worked for me. I come to full draw each and everytime

From: Liquid Tension
Date: 14-Jun-18




I just told you after my shot is prepared if all is good I start motor ( if not I let down) immerse in Aiming till the shot breaks. Again no different than a Sniper starting his squeeze & taking up the slack. When your spot on there are no other thoughts in your head but your intended target. Shot breaks & bow falls forward a complete smooth surprise. Again this nothing I invented or take credit for. This knowledge has been around for years. Most are to lazy to do the work & you will definitely get worse before better. I applaud your dedication to your studies but I want guys to know there a real system that with hard work will work & bring back enjoyment for them.

From: Phil
Date: 14-Jun-18




Woodsman,

In the archers with target panic there are elevated levels of activity in the extra pyramidial system. The function of the EPS is to stimulate muscle groups throughout the body not directly involved in a primary voluntary movement in order to maintain stability and postural control under static conditions. These concomitant muscle actions are usually increases or decreases in background tone and are not under conscious control and are not executed consciously. The EPS relies on neural plasticity at high frequencies (10-15hz) to accommodate and react to variations in controlling movement. In the target panic archer the EPS plasticity frequency is between 3-5hz so there's a reduced ability of the central nervous system to manage the precision movements required to execute the shot.

The key is not to try and shoot "instinctively" or "subconsciously, you'll only exacerbate the problem by using the very part of the brain that's causing the problem.

Externalize the process with a clicker, add variation into the distance you shoot, the size of the target you shoot at and position of the target. Do that and you well on the way.

From: cch
Date: 14-Jun-18




Liquid, so you use a sight picture to get you to release?

From: cch
Date: 14-Jun-18




Phil, what kind of tests did you put your archers through? I had an idea for testing the bracing theory. 1. Using a computer to aim with and using a button to shoot. Shoot some with no sound or any external stuff. Then try it using a slight shock or vibration similar to a bow shot. See if there is a change. 2 would have to be performed in front of people with something on the line. I am not a scientist just a thought I had.

From: woodsman
Date: 14-Jun-18




Babysaph...

." I put a clicker on my bow 30 years ago and it worked for me. I come to full draw each and everytime"

Your tp was not getting to full draw?? A sort of short draw snap shot??

From: tecum-tha Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 14-Jun-18




There is no instinctive shooting? Funny,how does an archer shooting from a galloping horse release? Aiming and keep pulling until the back tension releases the arrow? No, the release happens ideally in the calm part of a rhythm sequence, when the horse is at its highest point of its jump. There is no conscious decision to release, everything is dynamic and flows (even the anchor to a small degree). One point why horse archer are not getting target panic is that every shot is a new shot and is different. Excess repetition from the same position, stand, onto the same target for more than 2-3 arrows is poison for instinctive shooters and should be reserved for conscious system shooters and sight shooters.

From: Elderly OCR
Date: 14-Jun-18




If the horse archer is choosing a spot in the gallop then he/she must be somewhat aware of things going on.

From: Draven
Date: 14-Jun-18




"Draven... Do you feel the Bale is helpful in establishing good form?? Also, What do you think is the best way to introduce a target??"

I don't believe in blank bale for shooting a bow without sight just because I can't separate the idea of hitting something from the form itself. Form is not something you learn and after that you start thinking "what should I do with it to make me hit that thing". This works when you have sights. Once you have the form defined you introduce the sight in the game and things will fall in place. Most of the time aiming comes later for no sight bows but I believe in a gradual transition from "focus on form but keeping the will to hit something in the back of the mind" toward "the will to hit something through form". My way of training is shooting medium distance target (25 yards minimum) to balance the two parts of bow shooting: body mechanics and mental attitude. At that distance I can't hit a target without good form--> with better form I am increasing my chances to hit the target --> I educate my mind to learn the relation between form and ability to hit something. Once I consistently send arrows in same place at 25 yards I gain confidence in my form. Confidence in consistent form comes with precise shooting - capacity to group arrows in one area. The moment I have precision through form, I can start the work on accuracy by introducing an aiming system. This aiming system is just a helping tool, not the most important part - it rides the form. Confidence in form at 25 yards makes easy the transition to other distances. PS Precision is enough for instinctive shooter - reducing the size of the target it can become accuracy through training. "Aim small miss small" is talking about precision becoming accuracy. When you are confident that your form can send the arrow where you want, the accuracy is a matter of inches. These are my thoughts in very few words.

From: 2 bears
Date: 15-Jun-18




I wonder if someone can explain, if you have no idea when the shot is going to break--How in the world you could ever hit a deer moving through trees. How about an aerial target? My arrow would center a tree while someone else was field dressing the deer.Shooting the aerial after it is on the ground,is not classified an aerial any more. All the studies and opinions are interesting but occasionally a tad of common sense has to creep in.Lets go fling some arrows. >>>----> Ken

From: Draven
Date: 15-Jun-18




You know when you release you just don’t move your attention from the target to the act itself. The more you shoot the less your attention goes to release but you are aware when it is happening. I don’t know how many shooters with TP believe in this fallacy of “not knowing when release happens”. It may add to TP the self- fulfilled prophecy that took a false reality and made it true through his behaviour . PS Do you think AspirinBuster pays attention to release when he shoots the aspirine? No, but his brain knows when is the perfect moment to execute the shooting sequence and release the arrow to intersect the aspirin trajectory.

From: Phil
Date: 15-Jun-18




that's all very zen and all that nonsense... but what happens when he misses???

From: David A.
Date: 15-Jun-18




limbwalker wrote: ""I have written a book of _________ (unpublished) so I know a little bit about __________ " An indisputable qualification if I've ever heard one."

You're entitled to your opinion but I went after golf pretty hard for many years until I figured everything out at least to my satisfaction. Here's a little independent perspective from a critic sent down to expose my golf expertise. But, he became a friend...

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.sport.golf/uoJn72SsGxk

From: David A.
Date: 15-Jun-18




Babysaph, I'm going to give away some of my releases later in the year (toward year end). I can almost guarantee TP sufferers will be able to get to anchor with them every time. Should be interesting...

From: David A.
Date: 15-Jun-18




I have 2000 manufactured right now, btw.

From: Live2hunt
Date: 15-Jun-18




I for one do not think you can ever be cured of TP. It will always be there ready to show it's ugly teeth. You have to learn to shoot with it and how to sub-do it. It's like a drug addiction or Alcohol.

From: Jim Casto Jr
Date: 15-Jun-18




I wouldn't wish the darn stuff on anyone. I had to switch to lefty to function. Try as I might on the right side, I can't keep my finger from opening and releasing the string. Crazy!

From: Draven
Date: 15-Jun-18




"that's all very zen and all that nonsense... but what happens when he misses???"

The same thing is happening with yours. You learn to deal with the "f*ck I miss again" Nonsense is the response of someone who has the idea he knows everything. Good to know is someone here, Phill.

From: dean
Date: 15-Jun-18




I find it a bit odd, that head strong types that post on LW do not have the ability to say to themselves, "I am going to smoothly draw this arrow to my anchor, point it at the target and release when I am on target." I had TP pretty bad for a couple of years and sometimes I can feel it sneaking up on me again and it needs to be headed off at the pass. I also get caught in the 'DON'T' trap, don't draw to fast, don't jerk the release, don't cross your toes when you shoot, don't this don't that. I believe the answer for many is the restructuring of the neuron pathways. In more simple terms, if you have target panic, you also become insane as soon as you begin to pull a bow string back, but you are probably only insane on the one side because that pathway has been corrupted by some malware that you downloaded. I have had it before with folks that could get to anchor and would mentally explode on release, I would first try some 'encouragement' that came in the form of "Damn it, you are going pull that arrow to full draw anchor, keep pulling, aim keep pulling and then pull through the release", just as a first step. Sometimes it worked with just those positive reminders. Is that really the insanity of target panic? Did the sound of my booming and maybe threatening sounding voice cause a different pathway to kick in? I don't know. The answer that gets me which often comes up, "I don't know what my anchor is, I just shoot." That proves that the individual has never broken down their shot sequence and the work needs to start from scratch. TP comes in different forms, TP can be corrected with different stimuli, but one thing is for sure, anyone that has TP is partially insane and their brain ain't working right.

From: Draven
Date: 15-Jun-18




The single way to get rid of / not get TP is to educate yourself that nothing you are taught is optional. No matter what type of shooting you are doing. If you are self-taught, you have to be smart enough to understand this by yourself.

From: dean
Date: 16-Jun-18




Never say never, some of the most disciplined people get the yips. Philosophies can often not compete with time. For those that get crippled with TP whether they find using mechanical help, changing hands, changing what is in their head, or sometimes shooting more fluid and forget about using holding form and shoot better with whatever adjustments they needed to do, that is what they needed to do. I have seen some shooters that do not have TP when they shoot fluid, but cannot try to hold without breaking up. I have also seen that fluid shooters had to develop an artificial hold to get through the yips, whatever works for the individual is the right thing.

From: AspirinBuster
Date: 16-Jun-18




Wow, has this thread grown since I have been away! I was out of the country a week or so and found this thread still going upon my return. It looks to me like we have kept a good debate, discussion and conversation going. Well done.

I will reread the thread later but after a quick review I wanted to post a few thoughts.

Someone asked when I had tp. I had it visit me as a competitive shooter once long ago and then a time or two during my exhibition career. Perfomance anxiety and TP are different but NLP seems to work with either.

Performance anxiety in my mind is when everything is right- the bow is tuned, I’m shooting well but say I notice a celebrity, news camera like CNN, etc in the audience and my mind will say, “I have to be on today...” and I “psych myself out.” This could also be if you are a tournament archer and you get in a shoot off when everyone is watching. You have performed well enough to be a top shooter in a competition and now for the shoot off you are in front of the whole crowd and your competitor. If you let it the mind will focus on the crowd and that pressure rather than the bullseye.

Actual target panic is when I don’t notice an exterior factor but my flow isn’t typical. Maybe when a baby aspirin goes flying up just as I typically would see it, draw and release I freeze up and delay my shot. Typically there is a mental teason for this.. perhaps a relative is sick and that’s on my mind, perhaps I have a plane to catch in one hour, etc. NLP keeps the bullseye on my mind and I ignore the other factors.

Rather than keep it a secret and just let everyone think I am always a great archer, I found a technique that’s been very successful for me. Perhaps it can be for you.

Al Henderson’s book is a great help too. He was a friend that helped many in his career.

Thsnks for all of you that have taken part in the thread. I hope those with Target Panic find some advice that will help them.

Frank

From: AspirinBuster
Date: 16-Jun-18




To expand on my earlier post, I’ve heard some talk about the zen of archery.

A special forces friend once watched my show and called what I do “target acquisition”. That was a pretty cool way to describe my method. My eyes watch the target. I’m intent on the target. That’s my total focus.

When I miss, if the bow is properly tuned and “on”, the thrower can throw, then I know it’s me. Once my bow is tuned to my satisfaction I write notes on the brace Ht, etc and that allows me to quickly check things. Once I figure out it’s me, I can fix that. Haha.

NLP can be debated by the scientific community but as for me I’m convinced it works. I have great respect for Dr Woodsmall and my other friends from that field.

Frank

From: Flash
Date: 16-Jun-18




I'm not taking a thing away from you being able to consistently hit hand thrown aspirin from behind your back. I just want to know why you don't use the same bow for hunting.

From: Draven
Date: 16-Jun-18




"Philosophies can often not compete with time."

The Zen guys that are nonsense generators according to some here thought about this and they implemented a rule: train following the way you were taught because when you need to be in action you use what is left on you from those teachings according with the situation at hand. Target oriented guys invented their own rule: compete like you are training. Two "philosophies" that hold water, no matter the time. You have a topic on LW: It's not the tool, Silly. It applies here too.

From: AspirinBuster
Date: 16-Jun-18




The bows I use for the shows wouldn’t be practical to hunt with, the color and length wouldn’t lend well to a hunt. But I have carried a long Bow, recurve and compound to hunt with at one time or another. I make no bones about liking to bow hunt with a compound. Of course I also enjoy firearms season for deer with my family. I grew up in a hunting family and enjoy about all aspects of it.

The target panic issue is our focus but I’m always happy to answer other questions.

Frank

From: David A.
Date: 16-Jun-18




Frank, was there a part 2 to the article and if so do you have a link?

From: Flash
Date: 16-Jun-18




Questions answered, thanks!

From: David A.
Date: 17-Jun-18




Not really. Why does he primarily hunt with a compound and not his recurve?

From: Mountain Man
Date: 17-Jun-18




Why does he primarily hunt with a compound and not his recurve?

Cause,,,,,thank God,,,,,,its America,and its a free country Frank can hunt with anything he wants Hell he lives in TX,,,,i think they even got a season for pick trucks

From: AspirinBuster
Date: 17-Jun-18




Part II of the article is here :

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bowhunting.net/2018/03/target-panic-taking- action-part-ii-2/amp/

From: AspirinBuster
Date: 17-Jun-18

AspirinBuster's embedded Photo



I’m pretty comfortable with any style now but since I grew up in the 1970’s when the compound became popular, I would often switch from recurve to compound and back. I often associate my recurves with work and so I grab a compound when I hunt. I’m guessing if I used a compound on stage then when I had time off I’d use a recurve. My net won’t stop a compound arrow but I have done my show with longbow, recurve and in the old days have even used a compound (that one was shooting regular not behind the back.). Instinctive shooting is instinctive shooting. Our brains can easily make the switch.

Simple as that David.

Best, Frank

From: David A.
Date: 17-Jun-18




Mountain Man, you answered why he can, not why he does. Frank, I'll take your word per your longer explanation. I'm not against the compound, I just find it a bit curious. I would have thought the answer is because bayer hunting (get it?) is a specialty endeavour and different enough from bowhunting deer, etc. that you just don't have time to do both well. However, you contradicted my theory.

Olympic archer Brady Ellison also uses a compound to bow hunt. Again, I'm curious as to why. I would speculate he just isn't going to give up on a full out sight system.

Thanks for the link. It had an extra space, which I have removed here:

https://www.bowhunting.net/2018/03/target-panic-taking-action-part-ii-2/amp/

From: AspirinBuster
Date: 17-Jun-18




David I also limit my shooting distance with bow hunting. I’ve always said instinctive shooting is a good close range method. While I have taken game further, I don’t broadcast that and I don’t talk about it. I’m a fan of getting as close to my game as possible. I have passed on some big game that were beyond my comfort zones. Two hunts come to mind, a huge 7x7 bull elk in New Mexico and a nice buck on King ranch. Both were beyond my comfort zone and so I watched them go out of sight. Both would have been taken by a good sight shooter with a compound but instinctively I wasn’t willing to take what I get was a risky shot.

After passing on the buck at the King ranch my father took a price of cedar fence post and laid it in a dusty ranch road. We walked away and he said bow shoot at the piece of fence post. I did and my arrow landed within about an inch of the post. The yardage? 50 yards. The buck had been about 40. He told me I would he buck and he knew I had the skill. Pop uses heavy tackle and has been able to Consistently amaze me at the shots he makes in game at any yardage. I’ve only seen him miss once in a lifetime of hunts. And that too was on Kingbranch.

Good memories. Anyway, the target panic thread veered off a little. Any other questions just post them.

Frank

From: AspirinBuster
Date: 17-Jun-18




My iPhone scrambled that last post. Sorry! That’s not exactly the way I typed it.

Frank





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