Belly heat treating on a form always makes me a better bow. Is this cheating or not?

LOL, cheating what?

I don’t think I understand the question

Huh? When our ancestors were hardening the tip of the wood arrow to make them better they were cheating? This question reflects some of the modern human idiosyncrasies.

many bowyers make excellent bows with out the belly heat treat process is all that i mean.Some of mine do not turn out good that way, but always turn out to my standards when i back set and heat treat the belly.maybe i should not have asked the question, but that was what i was gettin at.

The only way I would think you might cheat is if you would present the bow without telling the truth about its construction with the intent to obtain some kind of advantages. Other than that, the technical part is bowyer's decision IMO.

draven i agree. there was an old film on utube of a california indian making a hupa,yurok,yahi style bow. showed the whole process beginning to end.california university film i think.no heat treat was ever involved in the making of that bow.it was made wide very thin juniper wood and strung backwards and dried naturally.then sinewed backed painted and that was it.Very impressive to see they were very good bow makers even back then.even more impressive is in the way they shot the bows.check out Billy Berger shows how to shoot the ishi bows on utube. i should not have ever said cheating on the thread.i can see that raises to many hackles.i guess i was not clear enough.now you understand the topic, and that was what i meant.i would quit building bows if i could not use a form and heat treat. thanks

If it makes your bows better just keep on doing it. Seeking improvement should never be called cheating,unless you are in a competition with a specific rule against it. Have a good day. >>>----> Ken

ok ken will do.just chronied 3 of my bows.was really happy with a sinew backed black locust 45 lb 26 inch draw. shooting 10 grs. per pound or 450 gr.arrow it shot an average of 152 fps.seem to be getting a little better each time at making bows.keep the faith friend.

Heck no. I like to build the best bow I can.

Bassman, one tip that will make your bows behave better for you, monitor the set from early in the tillering process. You might set out to make a 50# bow but if you are monitoring find out early on that you only have dimensions that will support 40# without taking undo set. Everyone has a different was of building and some methods work better for some than they do others. One common problem is taking a bow just a little too far in floor tillering and then findout out as soon as you put a string on it that you have to build the entire bow around a weak spot in the limb. I have been putting mine on the long string a lot sooner than I used to when they are still way too heavy. I pull them to full time adjusting the tiller as I go. Check the set after every trip to the tree. If it starts to take set you either need to find some other areas on th bow you can remove wood or lower your draw weight expectations.

It still is a selfbow if thats what you were after. Some wood doesn't perform well unless you heat treat.

They were heat treating bows over the camp fire a long time ago.

Why make a bow if it won't work as well as it could.

I am going to heat treat my iron wood to see if it will help keep out the moisture and Pearl D said it would really help that particular wood.

You are doing Great Robert, keep asking questions.

Thanks badger you are always willing to help.Next bow i build i will follow your advice to the letter to see how it works out.So you do not back set or use heat when you make your bows? Thanks for the tutoring.

I guess I can think of some reasons not to make every bow 'work as well as it could'. I don't want to sinew back every one that would benefit from its performance. I don't want to back all of my yew bows with rawhide, even though it would make them more durable. I don't want to use only the best bow wood. I don't want to reflex or recurve them all, or make then all centershot, or use skinny high tech strings even though those things could arguably 'make them better'. I won't have board-flat bellies and boat oar wide limbs on my bows, or put glass on them all, or avoid staves with loads of character, OR have them all look like I dropped them in a fire. I wouldn't make a bow that looks charred if its performance doubled. I'm just not gonna do it. Why? I don't like the look. That's just me, my preference... one of many ;^) It's a way to help a bow's performance with some woods, but it's not the only way.

Bow making is all about choices, tradeoffs, and each one is a complex coordination of many factors, some of which are more or less important to each bowyer and/or archer... because our values vary... sometimes from bow to bow, or day to day.

Yes, I use backset and heat when I make my bows. I don't toast the limbs but I do get some color change.

Robert, if your longsting is about the same length as your bow your draw weight will read the same as if it were braced, so if you are getting 50# @18" on the long string it would still read about 50#@18" if it were braced.

oooooooooooh i see what you are saying.had no idea .thanks again badger, i think you just made me a better bow maker if i can execute the above.

Cheating involves deception! I don't see how cheating could be involved if the idea is to make a BETTER BOW? There are many ways to get there. they ARE NOT ALL THE SAME!

i know batman as i said above i should have asked the question in another way.i do not believe any ones intent is to cheat when making a bow i was referring to the methods with which the bows are made.i think we all share each others experiences on here and that can really help us all in the long run.some on here are at the top of the game for sure and it is nice to pick up a pointer here and there. i was and still am a hard knocks kind of guy.learned about every thing that way and the results varies.thread should have been something more like belly heat treating or not.my mistake please forgive and let us move on.thank you.

badger thanks for the tips ,you are one heck of a teacher.hope you can get up to speed as you work on your bow strength for your flight shooting as it may be your last one.set another record ,i will be rooting for you.

No.

Nice profile on that one hedge.

hh at rest are the tips even with handle, behind the handle, or in front of the handle.

yes

I vote "no". In my opinion its essential for every single bow wood except osage and yew. And if you ever try to temper an osage bow you may find yourself doing all of them in the future.

Good thread Thanks to all.

Love the smell of toasted HHB in the morning. Bjrogg

Oh HH love that profile Bjrogg

I am going to reduce my pig nut hickory and try to cook a bit of set out of it, when this high humidity and rain takes a breather. Yes, belly heating is cheating, I plan on cheating.

I hope it is not considered cheating, if so I have cheated on most all of mine, do really temper them much but us heat to adjust most every one. Pappy

I asked the question in the wrong way sorry again.I was under the impression that the top notch bowyers on these threads used no belly heat treat.Boy a took a real beating on this one.I tried that and made bad bows.Now when my bows come off the form they look like a banana with lots of back set then i tiller and the bows come out all right.I see the word CHEATING can raise a lot of hackles.Over and done.

I would imagine as soon as man discovered fire he started toasting anything and everything over it.

My theory (completely without merit) is the first bow was discovered when the spindle out of a bow drill fire starter slipped off the foot board and launched the spindle at a rapid rate of speed past the user. Mr caveman thought; "Hmmmm I've got something here"

Robert, I don't think its really possible to cheat at building a self bow. There are just better, easier, clever or faster ways some fellas use and some fellas don't.

Eric, good theory. I have thought long and hard about that very thing. Few of my own ramblings; I think footed arrows are a result of folks with no money breaking invaluable arrows they couldn't replace. I also think the Grumley brush tip was simply a result of a recurve cracking when it was steamed and bent, not just a great invention by design. Both make perfect sense to this pea brain.

Pearl, I have thought the same thing about the Grumley tips LOL

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