Need some informed opinions...

I'm tuning a little too stiff.

Is what I'm showing here good enough to expect good-enough broadhead flight out to 25 yds?

I really don't want to buy new arrows.

45# Kodiak, gold Tip 500's, 225gn field points.

Thanks much,

Ted

I take it you’re shooting through paper?

I never had any luck with that. Even if you’re shooting “bullet holes”, what happens 2-3 yards closer or farther away???

Best bet (IMO) is to put the paper on your target and shoot at a vertical line down the middle. Right hand shooter, impacting left = Stiff. Which doesn’t surprise me, because I can’t get a 500 to bare-shaft full-length with 145 up front even when drawing about #50-plus pounds.

JMO, if you can hit what you’re looking at with what you’ve got, use them up and buy a more appropriate spine next time around. Fletch generously and go for it. If the BHs group with the FPs, call it good.

If not, start with Stu’s calculator and dial yourself in.

I understand not wanting to shell out for new arrows, but allowing an animal to die a slow & painful death doesn’t sit right. I’d happily pay $100 to ward that off.

YMMV.

Paper tuning isn't reliable until you have done your group tuning. Step back 3 steps and the tear will change.

Shoot 2 fltched and one bareshaft together and get them impacting together on a vertical line. Then you are tuned.

So the answer is no. It isn't good enough to expect good broadhead fligh out to 25 yards.

If you are stiff there are a number of things you can do before you buy new arrows. Decrease the centershot on the bow, change the string material, change the material you have on the sight window from something soft to something hard, remove yarn puffs from the string or make them smaller just for starters.

Agreed on the ethics. Exactly what I'm aiming for.

Honestly, I'm shooting straight out to 30yds with 145 grains. Probably cuz my release sucks. Seems my 5” feathers are saving my bacon.

I'm new here. Tell me more about Stu's calculator.

Thanks,

Ted

If you're going to shoot bows, you need to put together a test kit of arrows. You need to fletched, and on bare shaft of each of 3 different sizes, cut to the length you are going to use.

Those 9 arrows, along with an assortment of diffrent weight field points will save you $100's of dollars, and many hours of irritation.

You simply walk out to your target, draw a vertical line down the middle, and shoot them. The ones that ggroup together on the vertical line are the right ones.

Venting here a little bit.....

Every stinking gold Tip chart or online calculator puts me in a .500 spine. I totally believe you fellows saying I should end up in a .600.

How can the MANUFACTURER get it wrong? One would think they'd be the provider of the best information.... One would be wrong, I guess.

maybe get some 100g brass inserts and give them a whirl before spending much more on new shafts...but I agree on the vertical line and bare shaft mixed with fletch to see where your at. im guessing you are going to be close with another 100g up front.

Go up to 250 grain field points and you'll be good. I'm a believer in paper tuning and think a .500 is perfect for a #45 bow.

Those manufacturers charts tend to be for compounds with centershot, drop away rests and mechanical release.

Modern charts are adapted from compound bow charts for the most part, and especially with carbons. Folks here, and probably everywhere, have been given bad information and most buy arrows that will be too stiff. It's more like an epidemic every time someone shows up here trying to tune them.

An understanding of spine, versus an interactive chart will go a long way. I don't use charts..they can be misleading, but I do know where to go to start via static spine for any of my bows. Yeah...600's make more sense for that bow. And you still didn't mention some vital information like string material and your draw length....and arrow length.etc.

You still haven't said what your draw/arrow length is

It's very simple to choose the proper spine in carbon arrows. BUT, you have to understand what the charts are saying, and most folks don't.

Here goes.

As george indicated, most charts are made for compounds. Spine for carbon and aluminum arrows is measured over a 28" span using a 1.94lb. weight. Spine for recurves and longbows has traditionally been measured over a 26" span using a 2lb. weight (this what was known forever as AMO spine). (aluminum arrows are spined the same as carbon by the way).

So, what you do is take the carbon spine, in this case .500 and multiply it by .825. You get .412..That is the AMO spine deflection. To get the static draw weight measurement, you divide that measurement by 26 (remeber our 2lb. weight 26" span?) which gives you 63lbs. That being said, unless you are shooting a bow waaay past center, you are over spined.

Consequently, a .600 spine carbon. converted to AMO is .495 or 52lbs. and .700's are .577 or 45lbs..

Carbon will stiffen if you cut it shorter than 28" just like any other material, and it will weaken if you leave it longer just like any other material. Some folks say that carbon tends to act stiffer quicker as you cut than other materials, that's not been my experience, but it may be yours.

If you use this system (some folks say it's too complicated which is absurd) you won't have any trouble buying the right arrows.

It's simple, and it works every time.

I am shooting CE Heritage 90's with 200 grains up front from my 46 lb bow. I draw 27 and arrows are cut 28 1/8. Bare shafts about perfect.

My draw length is 27” and the arrows are 28”.

A couple comments above give the excuse for the manufacturer that the tables are geared for compound.

I will say that the tables/calculators I've used are distinctly marked as RECURVE. So I cut the manufacturer ZERO slack.

Thanks again fellows,

Ted

Always buy a test kit before purchasing arrows.

Also if you release is poor as you say, you are wasting your time paper tuning and bare shaft tuning. You are better off shooting a full length arrow loaded up front and working on your form and release. Then when you have improved form and release, start with a test kit and begin tuning. Sounds like you have put the cart before the horse, like most of us.

"You are better off shooting a full length arrow loaded up front and working on your form and release."

Not this. Regardless of how crappy your release and or form may be, you can still buy arrows that are spined correctly for the bow, and the shooter.

Maybe leave the arrows a little ong to determine if your draw length may increase as you develop. But to shoot a 32" arrow drawn to 27" is completely absud. UNLESS you are using the arrow point as a front sight, and you need the extra 5" to get your point on where you want it to be.

Ted, the fact that modern charts are marked as they are like I said, used to be commpn knowledge. And in reality it has little to do with compound bows. It has to do with a "mistake" that was made by a large shaft mafr. that become the norm. But that's a completely different topic.

A full length CE Heritage 90 measures just a tad under 30 inches. Why cut them and have arrows to short that you can't use? Kinda the boat he is in now.

Actually it's not. He bought the wrong spine to begin with. Mot the same thing. Buying the proper spine in the beginning is the ticket. Then you can shoot the arrows that are the length you want them to be, with the point weight you want to use. Rather than doing a a "band aid" job by going overly long, or overly heavy on the point nd, or both.

Waht is the deflection of CE Heritage 90? I personally won't touch an arrow that desn't have a deflcetion measurement.

About 10 or 12 years ago, I bought some GT Blems from Big Jim. His advice to me was to leave them full length and shoot them that way for while. Just passing on some knowledge that has been useful to me. Carbon Express makes a terrific arrow and a 90 will probably be exactly what he needs. Shooting it full length until he is ready to bare shaft tune is a good idea. It may only be a half inch or so longer than what he is shooting now. He can always cut them later but he sure can't make them longer. That is my offering to the OP.

A 90 according to the CE websight is .483 AMO spine. That is going to make it 53lbs. at 28". So it PROBABLY will tune if left long enough, and enough weight is added. Since it will be 10lbs. softer than what he has now. And the bow is actually set up far enough past center. If it's at or before center it's going to take a conseiderable amount of weight, just like the .500's he has now. It's much easier to make a soft arrow stiff without a lot of effort then it is to soften an arrow that's too stiff to begin with.

Just doesn't make sense to me to not buy the right spine in thebeginning.

Here's how I plan to proceed...

-Procure an Arrow test kit -Use my arrow test kit with my field point test kit -Bare shaft tune for windage. -Paper tune for high/low tear -ReTest impact with my chosen broadhead **Henceforth, Totally ignore manufacturer recommendations

Thanks much,

Ted

CE Heritage 90 is a 588 spine.

Ted...you bareshaft tune for nock placement on the string as well.

Moving the nock UP makes the arrows impact lower. Moving the nock DOWN makes the arrows impact higher.

IF you must use paper, you do that last to confirm you tune. I see at a huge waste of time (but that's just me) necause the results change just by stepping forward or backward.

"CE websight is .483 AMO spine" .588 x .825 = .425 AMO spine rather than .423 as I wrote previously. .588 isn't AMO spine. It's ASTM spine.

"Also disregard what GF said, you can have the best tuned set up in the world and stuff happens, animals are a living thing that moves, hears and sees!!! "

WTF does that have to do with anything I wrote?

No question the .500s are too stiff for the OP; as I noted in my first post, I can't get a .500 to bare-shaft out of a #55@28 recurve even full-length with 145 up front. But if the broadheads hit in the same place as FPs (as close as the archer's ability will allow you to call it), then - especially with a generously fletched, nose-heavy arrow - imperfect can still be PLENTY close enough to practice with and even close enough to hunt with, with no compromise in one's ethical standards.

Because if it flies as well as you can shoot, it flies as well as you can shoot; if you can shoot better than your arrows will fly, then (if not reasonably well tuned), you'll never get FPs and BHs to hit in the same place..

But as I ALSO said in my first post, it's worth $100 to me (or whatever a dozen new arrows will cost) to have a proper tune, now that I know how to get one. Doesn't mean you can't use up the too-stiff inventory out stumping or on a 3D course or what-have-you.... It's actually quite liberating to have arrows that you're not afraid to lose or break....

My best bet for the OP (if you want to shoot carbons) would be a .600 (or the equivalent) at 28" with 125 or 145 up front. Though I'd start at 29" and work my way down very carefully...

In aluminum, I'd go 1816 or 1916 with points at 100-145 for testing purposes, depending on how heavy you want to end up....

Ok then.

After today's shooting, two fletched and 1 bareshaft, 250grain is the number.

Point on is about 28 yds. It was about 34 yds with 145 grain points.

Now my next question..... How close to 250 grains do I need to get for a broadhead. I know everyone will have their favorite brand, but would y'all expect I'd get comparable flight with 225 GN? Or do I need to be on-the-job training 250 GN to impact the same windage?

Really appreciate all the feedback.

Ted

Oops, meant "on the money", not "on the job...

Well I would shoot a 250 grain broad head. Your broad head will be more sensitive than your field point. Get some steel adapters and shoot whatever head you like.

You'll probably need to be pretty close to 250 + or - 10-15 grains. Steel adapters as stated above make getting to 250 pretty easy.

When you say steel adapters, you're talking about screw-in to glue-on adapters?

Standard broadhead adapters you glue into glue on broadheads.

Also, when you get the points made up. go ahead and work out the string nock location as well. Then you will be completely set.

Why bother with adapters? VPA Terminator 3 blade, 250gr. VPA Penetrator 2 blade, 250gr. Simply awesome broadheads. Good luck.

I like adapters so I can shoot the smaller 125 grain heads and add a 75 grain adapter to get to 200 grains. Plus there is nothing easier to sharpen than an Ace Standard.

I haven't followed any of this, but did read a couple suggestions. I would tell you that if you used point weight to tune a shaft that is too stiff, you may have problems getting just any broadhead to tune.

Well tuned arrows can handle moderate to significant point weight changes without affecting flight.. except cast. Less than correct shafts tuned by point weight, can be sensitive to point weight variances... especially when those points have wings!

BigJim

Ted, I'm not a fan of paper tuning. I do use it just for verification.

If your shooting a 250 grain field point, get a broadhead to weight the same. It's very easy with glue on broadheads.

Shoot a broadhead and a field poing (250 grains each). If they impact in the same spot your good to go.

Broadhead left of FP and your right handed too stiff. BH right of FP too weak.

Very simple compared to what your doing.

Learn www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html click on 'download printable version' and you'll be answering questions instead of asking them.

PM me if you can't figure out how to get a broadhead to the weight you want.

Bowmania

Ted, I'm not a fan of paper tuning. I do use it just for verification.

If your shooting a 250 grain field point, get a broadhead to weight the same. It's very easy with glue on broadheads.

Shoot a broadhead and a field poing (250 grains each). If they impact in the same spot your good to go.

Broadhead left of FP and your right handed too stiff. BH right of FP too weak.

Very simple compared to what your doing.

Learn www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html click on 'download printable version' and you'll be answering questions instead of asking them.

PM me if you can't figure out how to get a broadhead to the weight you want.

Bowmania

Big Jim said it well. Get a properly tuned arrow and it can be very forgiving to adjustments such as modest changes in point weight. Many are shooting arrows too stiff for their set up.

Bowmania that is a great way to do it.Good point.Fastest and easiest way to tune a broadhead for hunting.

Thanks fellows. Appreciate the tips on tips!!

Tex

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