I'd been missing my JD Berry Misty Dawn string follow Hill style longbow since the day I sold her and shooting with a couple Hill fans up at TBOF state championships a few weekends back made me reminisce of what once was and as I watched them execute each shot I held nothing but admiration for those two fine gentlemen and their Hill Style ASL Longbows.
Their draws looked smooth...their bows appeared very stable and despite no string silencers or any other amenities?...their shots were whisper quiet as I headed home and spent the past several weeks scouring the classifieds and even called JD Berry to see if he had anything that might quench my thirst for a Hill style Longbow where he apologetically informed me his stockers were tapped out and then?....this came up...a 68"/53#@28" Jet Archery "Safari Premier"...the Mac Daddy of Hill style Longbow designs featuring 2" Backset Limbs...IOW's?....the very barn burner design HH himself preferred for...well?....Safaris!
I'm new to any blogs,been bow hunting over 50 years with longbows and recurves, have been building bows for over 30 years,am a pbs life member,I used to have a company called Skyline Camo maybe some of you old timers remember.i just wanted to submit a picture of the latest longbow I built. It is 51#@28" 66" myrtle riser,red elm limbs,black glass on back white on belly, I just build them for fun 5 or 6 a year.
Great looking bow Bill. Had a longbow with Stabilkore on the back. Looks cool, not sure it does much other than that when on the back. Nice to see a bow thread instead of all the knives posted that I could never afford :>)
The stabilcore will improve the torsional stability but I don't think there will be any real noticeable speed advantage other than the addition to the stack thickness.
mgerard: I know right?...I myself was quite taken when the pix of this bow came into my email only to see Xweave CF (which I'm gathering is what ASL lovers have termed "Stablecore"?) on the back of an ASL?...(as I thought)....really? LOL!
But it seemed such a conflict of terms?....I mean I could buy UDCF over boo but Xweave CF on a Hill Bow?...I laughed and figured what a perfect bow for me! LOL!
It's not like a Hill bow needs any more torsional rigidity than it's design already has (though more of a good thing can never hurt) and I don't believe it make much difference limb mass/fps wise but what I do speculate is that it's greatest virture in this particular application?...if the vibe damping abilities of Xweave CF as what I was most taken with was the very near complete absence of hand shock on this 2" Backset ASL and it's as much a pleasure to draw as it is too loose! :)
Thanks guys, like I said I'm new to this computer stuff, the last one I built is shooting right at 187fps with 9 grains per lb, I usually shoot around 11gpp. I'll try to keep up with you guys.
Longcruise: I am certain this is not a slow bow and it probably wasn't fair of me to take my first 3 shots of the day and this bow ever over a chrono but I just thought it would be cool to capture on video....my first 3 shots with it.
I should've stretched out and warmed up first but here's what I think I know....
When I swap out this Dacron string for FF and get this bow tuned with well matched arrows?...
I feel sure it will throw 10gpp 175fps when I get warmed up and stretched out and meanwhile?...I don't give a flip if it is a slow bow...it's smooth, stable and silent! :)
Bill, I think it is neat that you have the yin and yang of the vintage snakewood application with the modern X weave backing. Very unique, and the way you describe the design it has to be buttery smooth. Enjoy!
Jinkster that is one nice looking bow! I like it. 100 + 53# = 153 fps. It is faster than should be expected and will probably shoot a heavier at the same speed or more like you said.
Im a Hill nut ,,,,,ive owned way to many,,,and i think Joel makes a great ASL! I like my Jet Lepard alot! The thin limb tips and narrow limbs really make a great handling bow,,,i also think Joels grips are among the best out there the perfect blend of side angle and back width for heeling a Hill style bow I usally dont like fast flight strings they just stop to quick(if that makes sence to ya)for my taste on a ASL I perfer alittle more give on the cast,,,that said i run a FF string on my Jet and enjoy it The key Bill is to stay out of TAS's classifieds! ; ) Darren made a bad addictive website for Hill shooters Best thing i did with my Jet,,68" 56#/28" was get some breasted ceders shafts from Jim Curlee! Total weight between 550-560grns 5" sheilds for just under 10gpp and they recover so fast its amazing Hit the target flat straight like the hammer of Thor!
Yep Greg Haskel went to his house once and helped glue up a TD recurve limb with him. He showed me a few things about bow building, was a fun day. I thought he was a TD recurve guy only.
Yep. Skyline camo was (and still is) my favorite. Original Skyline is virtually invisible in a tree. I have a Double Bull blind in Skyline Apparition, also a good camo pattern.
Nice bow, Jinx. Speed seems good. You don't seem to be drawing it as far as your Borders though. Stretching that out a little will no doubt increase the speed.
The string on it sounded like a fast flite material to my ears.
Waiting to see what you come up with down the line.
Greg, I sure am old enough to remember Skyline camo. You make some beautiful bows there. Glad to see you on here and I hope you contribute more often as you clearly have something to offer.
Nice looking Bows. Howard HILL bows are my favorite shooting type bows. The chronograph in the video is that new old ? The one I have kinda looks like a star trek shuttle or one long electric shaver.Never seen one quiet like yours. Makes me want to check out the Wesley Special that I recently got.
monkeyball & Orion: Nice catch guys and no...I don't draw this Hill style ASL as far back as my recurves and for a couple reasons the first being...
1. While I shoot my recurves with a fully extended and locked bow arm?...I shoot Hill style ASL's with a bow arm that is just shy of fully extended with an even so slight relaxed little crook in my bow arm elbow. (it helps damp any subsequent shock)
2. I shoot my recurves 3under/Tab hooking my jaw...I'm shooting this Jet split-finger with a glove and as the index finger slides past the corner of my mouth?...she's gone.
3. My BB rig is 37#s, My Hex7 Covert Hunter is 38#s, my Hawk R/d Hybrid is 45#s and I'm at 27"s with 51#s OTF with this Jet...as poundage goes up?...my body compresses...hence my DL becomes shorter.
Adam Howard: Thanks but no...I'm not done with any other single string bow as I love shooting them all however?....there is no need for me to wax poetic regarding wood arrows off Hill style ASL's as the river of romance already runs deep for those who love them including myself but?...that doesn't mean I abandon all other bows especially when I worked hard to identify and acquire some great ones! :)
Mountain Man: after tonight's tuning session?...make mine an Art Vincent! LOL!
30pt & MStyles: Thanks folks! :)
I gained big ground quick tonight with this Jet Safari Premier as all I needed to do is cut off the strings existing nocking point (that was set at nearly 7/8ths" above the shelf) and installed an adjustable nail-knot nocking point at 1/2" above the shelf and?....
well I knew there'd be skeptics and I also wanted to review and critic my own self and observe how I'm executing so I made a vid....
In the "Comment" box...
"I'm pretty pleased with both this bow and myself tonight...it's a 68"/53#@28" Hill style Longbow and tonight?...with just one move of the nocking point it appears my 27 1/2" long 60# spine cedars w/ 160gr points are well suited too this Longbow however?...I'm also very lucky neither of my dogs went into convulsions as I never noticed the gigantic Bufo Toad they went after right after my last shot...got lucky on BOTH counts!"
Hope you enjoyed and I'm dang lucky neither of my Curs sank teeth in that freaking Bufo Toad!
Just a minor observation, but why do so many people nock an arrow with their hand on the shaft? My dad taught me to hold the arrow by the nock, feel the the nock index and lay the arrow on the shelf and connect the nock. Of course, he taught me that in the 1950's and all his nocks had an index.
If you watch Mr. Hill or most any ground hunter, they will grab the arrow by the nock from their quiver and load it without taking their eyes off the target, if you are in your back yard and not worried about your bale of hay running off, then you can load your arrow the other way.
I always use the nock, keeps me in practise, plus it is a lot faster in case you need it.
Well some guys arent strickly a Hill style shooter Every archer finds what works for him thats a great part of traditional archery!
I personally try to adhere to Hills teachings,,,back quiver,handle arrow at nock,swing draw blah blah blah But thats what i like I get laughed at when i shoot my A mag but i cant change up my shooting I stick with what works for me im willing to bet Bill does to
Bill ,I'm really glad your liking her . When I was hunting with Joel in West Virginia. He checked out the bow and moved the nocking point up . Said it would shoot better ? But man yout shooting it great ! Are you going to contaminate her with carbons. Lol.
It just doesn't make sense because you have less control of the the nock end of the arrow. It has to do with physics and angles. Simply put, it's like holding a pencil by the eraser end vs near the point. It's much easier to write or draw with your hand and fingers closer to the point.
What’s the brace height on your safari? I’ve had a half dozen or so of Joel’s Bows and they all liked around a 6 3/8 inch brace height. Your bow seems to be really loud for a Hill style. I’ve shot the safaris at Compton and don’t remember them twanging like that. Nice looking bow! Any bow that comes from Danny is going to be top of the line and pristine! Congrats
Buckdancer: no carbon fiber arrows will pass the shelf of my jet longbow...even though it's backed with carbon fiber! LOL! ;)
As far as the difference in nocking points?... much depends on grip pressure from Archer to Archer.
newell38: I just went with the standard thumb up fistmele as I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to measure brace height with a dish grip but I am ready to start experimenting with brace height.
To address the "how I nock an arrow" thing....
It's the result of me having used bow mounted Quivers all my life.
I owned one back quiver as a Young Man and it didn't appeal to me because when I ducked it didn't.
For the woods I prefer pocket Quivers these days and when hunting?...I always have an arrow nocked before ever entering the woods and I can't recall too many Critters sticking around for me to ever nock up a second arrow.
I had a stroke in 2015 and take beta blockers for my diabetic neuropathy so I'm afraid my dexterity and fine motor skills are not up to par to dealing with drawing arrows from a back quiver by the jock.
Jinkster, I have used a bow quiver and I cannot grab the arrow by the nock from one. But I lay the arrow on the shelf or rest and hold it there with my bow hand finger and slide my drawing hand to the nock. From that point it is the same as from a back quiver. I have even gotten second shots off amazingly quick.
Skeets: I think we all do the little stuff the way we were first taught and first became proficient at that said?...
My 1st real Archery Coach/Mentor (who knew what he was doing) instructed me to nock my arrow over 3 decades ago the way you see me doing so today.
At that time I thought it odd that he placed so much emphasis on such a simple task but I recall him warning me that there are many ways to nock an arrow but the reason he was showing me this way is so that I don't ever drop and arrow and so that I never cut my own fingers or bowstring with a broadhead.
This was also during a time he was training me for competition where you were expected to operate within the confines of your personal space on the firing line which was limited.
It was probably a wise road as I no longer have the dexterity or feeling in my fingers to confidently nock arrows the way others do and I'm a bit too far along in life to learn new tricks.
Oh Jinkster, you started it all for me and here you go again. Thanks to you and all your misty dawn posts i now own an amazing JD Berry Valor, A Northern Mist American, and i also picked up a cheap used HH to try, but one can only shoot so many ASLs so i let it go. Also had to get an Art Vincent back quiver and a gaggle of aluminum arrows. Oh how you have cost me Jinkster!
Looks good to me pal I dont think it sounds noisy to me,,you can hear the arrow flight over the string I draw 27" and found the sweet spot for brace height on my Jet at 6-3/4" its a 68" bow
Im sure the jump up in weight is giving you a great release to
Thanks Folks!...especially skeets and monkeyball...ya'll are making my head get big! LOL!
ModernLongbow: You're Welcome! LOL! ;)
Mountain Man: I'll have to bump BH up and experiment with that this weekend...mine is currently at 6 3/8ths"
Hal9000: The nock fitment of my 11/32 classic nocks was extremely loose on the string this bow came with and?...only had one nocking point which I replaced and then yesterday?...I added a lower nocking point and?...fattened the serving by lashing on some black nylon (Brownells #4 I think)...anyway yes...the fitment is snug but at the moment but I figure it will do the squish thing as shot count rises.
Now while this bow may be slightly louder than most Hill style ASL's?...there's two things it has they don't...
1. CF Backing and?...
2. 2"s worth of Backset (re: "Preload") in the limbs.
which BTW?...urban myth has it that the Backset should make this Safari Premier like the Mac Daddy of all teeth rattlers yet I'm shocked no one took notice of the very near complete...
"Absence of Hand Shock"
When I first removed this bow from it's sleeve?...I found out real quick that stringing it Boy Scout style was pretty much out of the question and even with a stringer?...
Hal9000: And I really don't get that because while it's been awhile since shooting my JD Berry Misty Dawn (which is a SF ASL) and frr4om what I recall of it?...if there is a difference (and I'm sure there is)...it wasn't much and both are surprisingly well behaved as opposed to what urban myth would have folks believe.
I've heard folks refer too them as...
"GRIP IT AND RIP IT TEETH RATTLERS"
and?...
"HARSHER SHOOTING THAN A STRUNG BROOMSTICK"
and what blows me away is these ASL's are bows that draw so smooth they feel like one big limb with a grip in the middle and well tuned with a decent weight arrow around 10gpp finish as well behaved as a well timed wood lam recurve and better behaved with less shock than several R/D Hybrids I've owned in the past yet they get this bad rap?
Then again?...the only Hill style ASL's I have experience with are JD's Misty Dawns and this Jet Safari which I'm gleaning are two top teir examples and I hear Northern Mist makes a great ASL as well.
In my opinion,,,,,alot of Hill style bows having hand shock comes from archers that dont grip them properly or the way they were meant to be(heeled)because there used to shooting a different design of bow Say if an archer goes from a low wrist pistol grip to a high wrist straight gripped bow and holds it the way there used to then they will get a shock Or if the bow is tuned improperly itll feel like that If its held heeled with a stiff bow arm it feels right Here again my opinion But i think thats why howard taught his shooting as a system Smooth fluid motions with a proper stance,,atleast thats whats work for me and if you are paitent and stick with the style it comes together beautifully
The only time i get shock from a bow is when im not shooting an ASL Itll take a few good days of shooting to be comfortable with say my Amag,when switching from a ASL Its wrist position for me
Mountain Man: I do believe you're right cause I'll admit that at first with my Misty Dawn?...I myself was at a bit of a loss of how to grip straight grip ASL's but even they taper at the bottom which causes the bow hand to naturally roll down into a low heel...unless you try to choke it like a chicken and grab it up around it's throat (that ain't there) like I attempted at first! LOL!
But the narrow flat dish of the grip on this Jet Safari seems like the ticket for me as the dished shape registers on my palm pad like it was the pattern used to shape it while the narrow flat disallows any bow hand torque and lets the archer know what drawing square unto the bow is...i.e.?...simplistic genius in it's most sublime form once the archer submits themself too the bow instead of attempting to get the bow to submit too them cause?...that ain't happening! LOL!
joe vt: It's an American Leathers "Full-Shot" model glove and unfortunately?...for some reason I hear they're not making the Full-Shot anymore which is a shame as it's the best glove I ever slid my string hand into...mines about 3-4 years old now.
fdp: I agree...mass, tiller and timing....when everythings right?...both tips close at the same time countering and cancelling each other out...but I would add that much depends on tuning and technique of execution as well.
Thats right Bill,,,ah guy on another site who is just learning bout Hill style of shooting desribed it as,"Aim with form" Your pointing your fist at a target instead of your finger I like Joels grips but on a straight grip i find that if you tuck the rest plate under the grip leather by 1/4-1/2" it makes a great reference point
As I became more comfortable with knowing this bows 53#@28" DW wouldn't hurt me?...I got more comfortable with taking a full stroke on this bow where in turn my bare shafts began tilting nock left more and more and even though I was having a tough time accepting that 27 1/2" long 60# Cedars w/ 160gr points were beginning to look too weakly spined for this bow?...I figured it could just as easily be a case of the arrows being too stiffly spined resulting in "False Weak" bare shaft readings so this morning?...I laid that to rest by replacing the 160gr 11/32 glue-on points with 100gr 11/32 points...
but one group of two bare shafts could've just been a fluke right?...so I shot'em again and nope...no flukes here and was happy to see this until I pulled them...
And with a 60gr reduction in arrow weight?...it was time to revisit the chrono...
in the "Comment" box...
"Just looking to see what I can wring out of this 68"/53#@28" Hill style "Safari Premier" made by Joel Templin of Jet Archery and it's moving 27 1/2" long 11/32ndths Cedars weighing 445gr/8.4gpp at a mean of about 175fps which is smoking for a Hill style Longbow is you ask me especially when you consider I'm only drawing 27"s with 51#s OTF's."
Always a bit surprised as to how much arrow weight affects speed. Just ball parking it, it seems about 25 grains of arrow weight changes the speed by about 5 fps. That's a lot IMO. Takes a bow weight change of 2-3# to achieve the same5 fps increase in speed, all other things being equal/unchanged.
Orion: A generic rule of thumb that's proven itself pretty consistent too me is...
"1GPP ='s 10FPS"
Now of course that hits a sliding scale at the extreme highs and lows of both velocity and arrow weights.
And to be clear here: I'm not going for speed as much as a great state of tune as an indicator of what spine shafts to buy next.
Optimally?...I'd like to be shooting a 28 1/2" shaft (as 27 1/2" is too close for broadhead comfort for me) and?...I'd like to be shooting a 12GPP arrow with at least 160gr points which means...
I'm going to need like 70#-75# spined shafts that weigh 450gr-500gr for the shaft alone.
and as fate would have it?...guess who calls me back about 30 minutes ago?..."Kevin Forrester"...and after about 15-20 minutes of kicking numbers and info around?...it's going to take a couple weeks but I have a dozen 30" long 11/32 short tapered to accept 5/16ths nocks....Hard Rock Maple shafts spined 68#-70#headed my way! :)
Hal9000: Got a good nights rest, woke up and drank some strong coffee then re-read and got a LOL out of it myself...that's what working 55hrs a week while remodeling 2 bathrooms and installing a cypress tongue and groove porch ceiling will do too you! LOL!
now to anwer your question?...I left my digital calipers at work but using a yoyo it looks like the riser wall is cut 1/8th" before center...maybe less as that includes the thin strike-plate material as well....the entry and exit of the wall appear to be dead centered but the radius of the wall is the lions share of that 1/8th" Before Center.
Mountain Man: When I asked Mr. Forrester what his absolute toughest hardwood shafts were?....he asked me what I'm doing with them...3D?...Hunting?...Stumping?....and I replied..."Yep!"...and he understood! LOL!
And then said he felt that the heavy hard rock maple was his most durable shaft material.
Now I'm looking at the Tophat Wood Arrow Point Adapters. ;)
