From: Toms
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Date: 09-Mar-18 |
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Hi all. Last weekend I was tuning my a new recurve and trying different arrow combinations to see which flew best. The weather wasn't the best for this type of activity as it was super windy.
For curiosity's sake I tried a arrow with 2 inch fletching with a 125 Magnus single blade with a 100 steel insert.
I was extremely surprised when this combo flew super well. I could barely see it in flight because there was no wiggle or wobble, no matter how hard the wind was gusting. Even better I was consistently hitting my targets - small water bottles hanging from trees - out to about 40 yards.
Does anyone use fletching this small for their hunting arrows? I've always used 4-5 fletching in the past but can't imagine windier conditions and this arrow flew amazing.
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From: George D. Stout
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Date: 09-Mar-18 |
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Hey Toms, this has been discussed here at length many times. Yes, many do use short fletching...2" in particular. A tuned arrow doesn't need a lot of steering, but in the end it's just a choice. As for the wind, with a tuned arrow, the smaller fletching is less likely to be bothered by the wind than larger fletching.
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From: GUTPILE PA
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Date: 09-Mar-18 |
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I use 3" and luv it!!
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From: ground hunter
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Date: 09-Mar-18 |
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I have also played around, shooting in my house down stairs , by my work bench,,,, there I can shoot 15 yards,,,,, I found 4 fletch to be my choice,,,,,,, my friend shoots the short razyrs, 2 1/2 inch...............
I also shoot 100 grain inserts and the Magnus Buzz Cut at 125
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From: oldgoat
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Date: 09-Mar-18 |
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I never did till I went to super high front of center/micro diameter setup this past year. Those arrows flight will straighten out bare shaft with field tips. The higher the FOC, the longer the lever arm the feathers have to act with and the less feather you need, in my book, that's the real benefit of a higher FOC!
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From: Bowmania
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Date: 09-Mar-18 |
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They are terrible if you like slow, loud arrows.
I've been advocating 2 inch for five years. The worst I hear is I don't like the way they look. Could be, but I like the dead animals laying in from of me.
I think I've killed 6 different species with 2 inch. TO me they look like a Porsche and the five in look like VW Beetle.
Bowmania
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From: fdp
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Date: 09-Mar-18 |
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It's really not new to use smaller fletching even with braodheads.
L.E. Stemmler wrote about using 3" fletching with broadheads ages ago.
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From: The Whittler
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Date: 09-Mar-18 |
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2"-3" fletching on long shots 25-30 yards or more will work great with arrows that are tuned.
For hunting average shots less then 20" yards 4"-5" fletch will recover quicker. These are my thoughts.
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From: deerhunt51
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Date: 10-Mar-18 |
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I shoot 2" fletched arrows through my ilf recurve and shoot bullet holes through paper at 36". No correcting needed.
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From: recurve86
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Date: 10-Mar-18 |
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I'm running 2" four fletch and eskilites or kudupoints, no issues here! Love em!
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From: ground hunter
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Date: 10-Mar-18 |
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I have also shot 2 1/2 inch 4 fletch which I really like,,,, you just have to play around,,,,,,, I have some arrows that are fletched with 5 inch feathers,,, they look cool, but they are noisy and slow,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I like the small fletch also
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From: ny yankee
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Date: 10-Mar-18 |
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Noisy and slow?! Who R you tryin' to kid? What does your chronograph say? I want the numbers. How the heck have we been killin stuff for decades with 5 inch feathers when we've been doing it wrong for so long.
Bowmania, let me get this straight. Are you saying you wouldn't have killed that moose if you had 5 inch feathers?
Again, I want the numbers off the chronos. Better be more than just a couple fps.
Noisy and slow? I think you're all just splitting hairs now.
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From: Rick Barbee
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Date: 10-Mar-18 |
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The simple fact, and bottom line of the matter is:
You can tune to achieve arrow flight, which does not require a lot of fletcing,
OR
you can just keep stacking on more/larger fletching, because that too will get your arrow straightened out. Slower, but they will shoot straight.
Rick
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From: Tomas de Gato
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Date: 10-Mar-18 |
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I ain't doin' it., just ain't right. Them squirrelly little girly feathers don't belong on trad arrows. The little feathers are like a gateway drug. A road to ruin ending in cams and let off bows. Just ain't right. Tride em' once, they shot flat and straight. Scarred the hell out me. I fear change. Now where did I put those little arrows...
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From: Buglmin
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Date: 10-Mar-18 |
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I just ordered some 2" feathers from Lancaster, and I'm gonna shoot 2" four fletch. Looking forward to playing with them out on my new TDX riser.
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From: GF
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Date: 10-Mar-18 |
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Just a thought...
Assuming you’ve taken the time to tune your arrow to your bow (and/or vice- versa), you might start off with just two of those little fletchings, rather than 4- fletch. Just to see if they’ll shoot for you.
Funny thought... you can save $$ by using smaller or fewer fletchings... or you can save $$$$ shooting the same arrows out of several bows by compromising on spine and fletching the snot out of ‘em!
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From: Sawtooth (Original)
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Date: 10-Mar-18 |
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I shoot 5" feathers. Always have, probably always will. i have never had any problems with them. They aren't too noisy or slow to kill deer and pigs.
Why don't you fellas have a contest! See who can shoot the smallest feathers. Try 1". Or better, try 1/4". Wait! I'd like to see somebody who can tune their arrows so well that they don't need fletching at all. Hunt with bareshafts. That would be REALLY impressive. And FAST too!!! Almost like a compound!!
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From: Pdiddly
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Date: 10-Mar-18 |
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Everyone needs to look at the recent thread where the difference in point of impact between 5" and 3" fletch at 30 yards was 12". That's 8" at 20 yards which indicates a great deal of drag from large feathers. That's how flu-flu's work after all.
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From: sqrlgtr
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Date: 10-Mar-18 |
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I'm getting ready to fletch some 3x4" in a few days.I know it want be as big a difference as going to 3" from 5" but hope I might gain a little.Anybody have any experience just going from 5 to 4"?If so how much less drop did u c,if any??
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From: Bowmania
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Date: 10-Mar-18 |
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NYYankee, I don't know if I would have killed that moose. I was shooting only 50 pounds and the animal was running, which takes away from penetration. I only got about 18 inches of penetration. HE fell on the arrow and pushed it through.
The year before a guy shot that moose with a compound and a slick trick. He got 6 inch of penetration. So I don't know if I would have killed him, but if I had to guess with that in mind I'd say no.
If you want number, here are the chrono numbers. I remember the results, but I don't know how I got there. I think I shot three sets of 5 arrows with 5 inch feathers and three sets of 5 arrows with 2 inch feathers. Numbers were zero to 1 foot faster AT SIX FEET. I couldn't believe it. I thought about it for a night and realized I wouldn't really see any real results unless I was down range. SO at 22 yards I shot groups of 5 inch and 2 inch and found a 4 inch difference. Of course 2 being higher. That is pretty significant. Especially if you're shooting 30+ or thinking of delivering more energy to your shot.
" How the heck have we been killing stuff for decades with 5 inch feathers when we've been doing it wrong for so long." What the heck do you mean by that statement???????????????? Because I'll counter that statement with, for those decades your talking about, to the 50,000 years before that they were using no glass and stone. Why did we ever stop that if we were so successful?
Lastly, PM me with your address and I'll send you some 2 inch feathers. Stand behind a target and have someone shoot into a target 10 yards further. It'll be the last time you'll shoot 5, if you know how to tune arrows. That's a must with 2 inch, but to me for 30 years it was a must with 5.
Bowmania
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From: Bob Rowlands
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Date: 10-Mar-18 |
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If you want straight flight regardless of crap form install 4 5.5 inch fletchings. That untuned arrow will straighten out real quick like at very short range ime.
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From: Daniel
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Date: 10-Mar-18 |
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I hardly ever chime in But the way I understand it with high FOC the longer lever arm like the skinny kid on the teeter-totter needs less feather. I now get two feathers out of a full quill around 3 inches long 1/2" tall. 350 to 400 up front finish arrow at 65gr to 675 gr 67lbs Northern mist classic.
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From: George D. Stout
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Date: 10-Mar-18 |
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Yes...Todd sent me some 2" to try and I found they worked just fine, even with broadheads. That said, I'm not switching to 2" feathers. It did show me that I don't need that much for control as long as my arrows were tuned well. It also showed that my arrows were tuned well so the bigger fletch had no impact, or very little on making them do that. Kind of a coup of sorts. But alas I like my bigger fletching.
Over the years I have shot 5 1/2", 5", 4.5", and 4" for hunting and have had them many times in the same quiver. I frankly don't care if anyone else shoots what I shoot, or if for some reason thinks my way won't work as well, that's only subjective opinion anyway, and I know better.
As far as fletching size goes, it's only a personal preference, nothing more, nothing less. Just because you are successful with what you use, doesn't mean it's the only way, or even the best way. Good grief....read some of our history.
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From: Toms
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Date: 10-Mar-18 |
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Hi all,
Thanks for all of the input and opinions.
I remember reading a few years ago about hight FOC and small feathers, and some of the advantages of this combo. I was just surprised how well the arrow shot.
I figured between the broached and wind, and without more fletching to correct things, the arrow would fly wonky. Instead it shot better than my usual go-to shafts.
I'm going to do some more shooting with this combo before turkey season but it is pretty nice to have a broached/shaft combo which I know flies well for this new bow already.
Toms.
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From: Bowmania
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Date: 11-Mar-18 |
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George, everyone on the LW is just trying to get the horse to water. They don't expect or care if they drink. It's the opinion (fact or fiction) that gets people to think.
I shot wood bows for 40 years, before I found out how much better metal was.
There that ought to get this thread to 100. LOL.
Bowmania
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From: Dry Bones
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Date: 11-Mar-18 |
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I have only been hunting a couple seasons with my recurve and longbows, however, I like the Rayzor fletch and IF I could have found a feather chopper in that design I would have went that route. I have 3" on my arrows now, since I could get the chopper that size. Several people have commented, but like Rick said. A GOOD!! tuned arrow does not need much help, and small fletchings work fine, OR you can stack the feathers on. I a little OCD about flight and shoot a good bit. With the smaller fletchings you have to get off the string clean or it will show. Good arrows look bad and may show incorrect spine with a bad release. I have found shooting super light bows with small fletchings makes me clean up release issues.
-Bones
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From: David McLendon
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Date: 11-Mar-18 |
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Hah!!! As I am mulling over selling a wood bow for a Spigarelli Barebow riser, yep "The Dark Side" ;^)
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From: ahunter55
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Date: 11-Mar-18 |
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I've shot 5" down to 2" over the years. Now it's 3 fletch Razors or Blazers on a 29" shaft & 125gr 3 blade head.. Both Work great.
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From: lamb
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Date: 11-Mar-18 |
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i'll take the big and slow. in the backyard might be good but in a hunting situation too many things to go wrong . cold fingers ,bulky clothes , different shooting positions, the list can go on. i'm sure john demmer isn't shooting 2'' feathers at the spots for a reason and i want to just as accurate because i'm taking a life. i'd rather drive the volkswagon and get there than the hotrod and break down
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From: Birdy
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Date: 11-Mar-18 |
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I think a lot of comes down to confidence. If you don't have enough confidence in your ability to try them in your back yard then they dang sure won't work for you hunting.
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From: David McLendon
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Date: 11-Mar-18 |
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I have been using short feathers on hunting arrows for a while, nobody should be using anything that they don't have confidence in or ability with. But it's a rainy day here and I have been cutting down some 5" to the 3.5" that puts my point on distance where it needs to be. I rather adjust the air brakes than compromise my arrow weight and balance. his is what is left, and that pile of scrap at the bottom is all unnecessary drag and noise.
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From: George D. Stout
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Date: 11-Mar-18 |
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I've shot lots of 5" feathers that are not even close to noisy. I've done many videos and you do not hear any noise before the arrow hits...and those are taken just a foot above the target. So I question this "noisy" stuff when it comes to bigger feathers.
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From: Sunset Hill
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Date: 11-Mar-18 |
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Just to throw in another thought, I recently switched from 5 1/2" helical to straight offset. Same arrows, same length and height feathers. Offset fletch shoots 5-6" higher at 25 yards. So I'm getting faster arrows and not losing the stability of the bigger feathers. Lots of ways to skin this cat.
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From: David McLendon
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Date: 11-Mar-18 |
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Wraps are getting ragged, this is the fourth time they have been stripped off and refletched
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From: Rick Barbee
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Date: 11-Mar-18 |
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Haaaaa. Nose ticklers.
I like it !!!!!!
8^)
Rick
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From: David McLendon
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Date: 11-Mar-18 |
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Yea, I'll trim them down just right next time I shoot. Quitting instinctive and split finger was a good opportunity to change a lot of things.
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From: Bowmania
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Date: 12-Mar-18 |
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George, I'll admit that my ears aren't very good. My hunting buddy last year switched to 3 from 5 without me saying a word. Reason - his 5 inch were noisy.
A guy about 35 years old at my archery club (probably ears better than both of ours) could identify 2 or 5 inch without fail.
Just think of ears that are 5 times bigger and the animal only gets to be 2.5, 3.5 .4.5 years old.
OK you did catch me in a lie. I switched over 5 years ago and being the opinionated azz that I am, I'm sure that I called him a stupid idiot for not switching, but then I let it go. I'm pretty sure that I hadn't said anything the year before. But he'd never admit that I was right, that's why he switched to 3 instead of 2. LOL.
Bowmania
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From: Bowmania
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Date: 12-Mar-18 |
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I was further thinking of the noise factor. You compare the noise out of a light and a heavy arrow from the same bow. THe heavy arrow out of that bow is going to make the bow quieter. Why because it's getting more energy. The bow can't deliver the light arrow all that energy so it goes to noise.
With this in mind, I'd say the extra noise from the 5 inch feather is the noise of wind resistance slowing down the arrow.
Bowmania
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From: Mpdh
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Date: 12-Mar-18 |
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What percentage of arrow flight noise is due to the fletching? Listen to a golf ball flying by, or a 90 mph fastball. They both make a loud sizzling sound, and they don’t have feathers. Maybe some of the noise is caused by something else.
MP
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From: David McLendon
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Date: 12-Mar-18 |
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No doubt that some of it is the shaft and what ever head is on it. No one will argue that a ventilated broad head makes a noise that a non-vented doesn't so that is an area that can be controlled to some extent just the same as the feather noise can be reduced by reducing the surface area and/or angle. The arrow shaft would be the one thing that pretty much remains the same unless diameter makes a difference but I'm not going to fret over that.
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From: Orion
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Date: 12-Mar-18 |
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I don't doubt that larger feathers make more noise than smaller feathers. I think height, shape and condition,maybe even amount of spiral, make more difference than length in noise generation. And, of course, all those things affect speed.
Regardless, for hunting, feather noise is pretty much irrelevant and doesn't really need to be part of the equation/consideration in selecting feather size, etc.
Sure, if you stand to the side, you can hear feather noise as the arrow passes, and some are louder than others. However, if you were to stand almost at the target (even behind the target, if safe), by the time you hear feather noise, it's too late to do anything about it. By the time you hear it, the arrow is a split second from striking the target. George has demonstrated this repeatedly with his shooting from 50 plus yards into a bale with the video cam perched above it.
At hunting distances, critters that "jump the string," for example, are reacting to the sound of the bow going off (and/or maybe some movement). They hear the bow long before they hear feather noise.
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From: Orion
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Date: 12-Mar-18 |
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One other observation about feather size. It does seem like smaller is becoming a fad recently. O.L. Adcock, Ed Ashby and others were big into this topic a half-dozen years or so ago, and I'm sure there were others before them.
We know from their experiments that arrows with a lot of FOC don't require as much feather to guide them.
What Bowmaina and others often point out and demonstrate is that small fletch works just fine if the arrow is well tuned to the bow and the shooter has good form.
What I see at most of the shoots I go to, however, are a lot of folks who need all the feather help they can get. They don't have very well matched set ups, nock points and brace heights often aren't where they should be, and their consistency of form leaves something to be desired.
Guess all I'm suggesting is that folks do some thinking and honest evaluation about their own abilities before jumping on the bandwagon.
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From: Linecutter
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Date: 12-Mar-18 |
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Since these are used for hunting. How do they work in wet conditions? With 5 inch you still have enough feather even when soaked to steer the shaft. Is that the case with the 2 inch fletch or is this a dry weather only hunting setup. DANNY
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From: Kodiaktd
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Date: 12-Mar-18 |
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X2 with Orion.
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From: ground hunter
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Date: 12-Mar-18 |
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I agree with Bowmania,,, no need to waste my time explaining, too many hard heads here any ways....... If you need a lot of feather to shoot correctly, your missing the boat,,,,,
I could explain my own tests, but why bother,,,,, you shoot what you want,,,,,,,,
Some want a woodie, with a large feather fletch, and that is fine,,,,,,
I want a fmj axis, the smallest fletch I can get away with, and zip it in.........................
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From: Kodiak
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Date: 12-Mar-18 |
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I shoot 5" shields.
Can't think of a single reason to go smaller.
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From: 2 bears
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Date: 13-Mar-18 |
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I wholeheartedly agree. For beginners and tuning impaired folks use 5 or 5 1/2 feathers. You might even put four of them on. For a tuned rig it is completely unnecessary. You are right no use in explaining to folks that still can't think of a single reason for using anything smaller. If I were not already a fan,that huge moose laying on the ground with a single 2" fletched arrow in it would have been enough reason for me to listen to the archer. What I think is---they don't read--they don't test--they don't think. Oh well what does anyone care what I think. Just keep shooting and having fun. >>>---> ken
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From: Kodiak
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Date: 13-Mar-18 |
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Seriously 2 Bears, how could you possibly get bent out of shape enough to start insulting people on this?
I mean, were talking about fletchings for arrows here, not debating the tenets of national socialism....
Wow.
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From: StikBow
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Date: 13-Mar-18 |
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2 or 5-the compromise at 3 or 4 inches may solve everyone’s problem. Enough to steer, not enough to drag. Less to be noisy. This is not a black or white issue as there is plenty of ground between the extremes. We’re beginning to sound like congress on a personal choice issue
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From: Orion
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Date: 13-Mar-18 |
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Agree with Kodkak.
KC. I don't doubt those arrows work for you. I'm moving toward shorter fletches myself. But I'll never go to 2-inchers regardless of how well they fly. They're just too damned ugly.
Don't know why we're arguing speed and stability when we could be focused on looks. :>)
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From: 2 bears
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Date: 13-Mar-18 |
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Seriously Kodiak,Feathers to national socialism. Talk about a stretch. Carefully read my post again. On topic,just facts and ending with have fun. Bent out of shape that only happens to aluminium arrows. Wood and carbon break. I shoot all three and I didn't recommend a fletch size. You said quote "can't think of a single reason to go smaller" O.K. You can't think. Can you read? I read every post there were several REASONS to go smaller as well as several reasons to go bigger. I shoot 2" feathers for distance especially in the wind. 5"with helix wild turkey feathers for the primitive look on self bows. 2 fletch for target (it saves feathers ever third arrow is a gimme)so does shorter if you cut your own.Flu-Flu for ariel. If you managed to read this far. Some folks actually speak from experience. Some actually experiment. Some just have opinions.If you still can't think of a reason I have a few more. Chill,have fun,no anger just facts. >>>----> Ken
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From: Rick Barbee
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Date: 13-Mar-18 |
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[[[ "they hear the bow long before the feather noise " ]]]
I agree they hear the bow noise first, but it's just one short burst of sound.
They hear the arrow all the way to them, and it's a much longer time period of sound.
I'll continue to try to get "both" as quiet as possible, because "both" make a difference on how the animal reacts.
Rick
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From: David McLendon
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Date: 13-Mar-18 |
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I had decided not to post on this again but I will this one last time. I had previously used 2.25" fletching as a result of Caribou huning in AK where you likely won'tmfind the perfect ambush spot and if you wait for one to run right by you then that's how you would spend your trip, waiting. I was shooting split fnger instinctive at the time and once your mind is right they work wellwith the primary advantage for me being a flatter trajectory for the expected 30-45 yard shot, they also got there a bit quicker. Since I now have the Funkadelic hard to prnounce eye disease I have lost about 70% of the sight in my right eye on good days. On not so good days the depth perception required for good instinctive shooting was unavailable and the bad days are becoming more frequent. I made the decision to switch to 3 under and an aiming system, fixed crawl was my choice. I found that due to the flat trajectory of my short feathers, as much as I like them and believe in them, my point on distance even with 3 under was way too long and made it hard to place a crawl point at a distance thagt maximized the gap profile of the arrow flight for that system. My arrows are tuned to my bow and rather than jack up my nock point and messing up my tune I elected to determine what length of feather was going to put my point on distance where I wanted it. That's when all the feather testing started and I decided to post it up because I found it interesting. Never at any time was I advocating that anybody change to a short feather even though I had been using it for years, I wasn't selling anything or any point of view, I was searching for what I needed to accomplish a goal and I did it and it wasn't a 2" feather that did it. It was never mean to be a debate but some debate is good, some of the commentshave been entertaining, some frustrating and some enlightening. I have learned quite a bit about some of the folks here some good things and some disappointing things. I have been in regular communication with Rick and Todd (Bowmania) all the way through working this out and I want to thank both of them for their input along the way. I'll hunt with those two any day. Some folks I think got some positive things out of the thread and thought about things in a way that they previosly hadn't. Some seek to discredit and ridicule anything not in line with their belief to the point being offensive. Everybody should use what they like and need and be happy with it. I got the information that I needed and am moving on with the change in my shooting style. I am looking forwardto it becoming as accurate and reliable as Instinctive was for me back before my vision started to change. Adapt and Overcome
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From: Kodiak
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Date: 13-Mar-18 |
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I'll stick with 5" shields, 2 bears...just out of spite now. Lolol
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From: 2 bears
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Date: 13-Mar-18 |
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Kodiak even the spiteful are capable of learning. Stick with your 5" feathers. It matters to no one. In fact it helps the feather merchants. If you are not completely close minded and just a keyboard archer, read Rick Barbee's and my post on the Feather Noise Comparison. Even a bear might learn something. P.S. I never told you what to use or not use. LOL Have a good day.>>--> Ken
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From: 2 bears
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Date: 13-Mar-18 |
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That is funny. >>>----> Ken
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