I'm asking for explanation on "instinctive" shooting. People will say, I don't aim, I don't gap, I just look at the target and shoot. I'm at a loss at how that is accomplished. If your eye is open you have to have periorificial vision. You have a sight picture. Therefore consciously or subconsciously you are using some type of aiming system. So my question is what constitutes "instinctive shooting"? I shoot an ILF rig with string walking, I also shoot a longbow, three under with a cant. No gapping or walking, Just draw, acquire a sight picture and shoot. What style is my longbow shooting considered? Not looking to pick a fight with anybody just trying to expand my knowledge. Thanks for any input.

This thread should be closed. You're a pot stirrer. You can't even spell peripheral. You've already listed all the objections to the concept.

"Not looking to pick a fight?" Crap. You can research anything you want to know on this subject by doing a search of the 'wall.

Talk to Aspirin buster about the sight picture.

Now, crawl back in your hole. Winter isn't over.

Read some of Fred Asbell's books on instinctive shooting he pretty much explains everything. When you said above that "I just look at the target and shoot" you are pretty much shooting instinctive. Experience and brain power figures much of this out as you progress. Knowing your equipment and using it regularly will help a lot.

Good Luck with your Shooting.

Tundra

They may not think they are, but they're aiming... subconsciously.

If all of your conscious focus is on the mark, and all of the alignment of the arrow, bow, sight picture, etc(aiming mechanics) are accomplished by the subconscious, i.e. with no such referencing done consciously, that's the instinctive aiming method.

Instinct: Behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level

LOL Wow Jim.....how do you really feel about it? Regards

wow james! that was pretty harsh.the way to describe instinctive shooting Tim is when you throw a baseball and you are playing catch you just seem to know where and how hard to throw to reach your partners glove the same can be said about arrows once you have the feel of your bow, i guess what you are doing is just that string walking. i shoot instinctively. hope that helps some

Well......................

Marshall Dillon did it all the time. Just look at the target and draw and shoot. I would bet he could do it with a bow too.

James

Idk, how does Tom Brady continue to complete passes without a pin sight? How do overpaid basketball players make 3 pointers without a blurred string? Pitchers throw strikes? Eye hand coordination, repetition and practice. I'm no expert but I'm discovering the more I do it the better I get. nybubba

Just a bit on the rude side there, Jim, don't you think? Unless you know this fella and are joking with him.

Tim, just keep shooting and you will get it. I've been shooting instinctive since 1955. I to don't aim but draw and shoot and the arrow goes true. Out of your reply's on here, I think Tommy 2 feathers said it best about the baseball player. one thing that I do is to pick a spot before you draw. When you reach your anchor, let it go. Just like the baseball that arrow will fly true.

Mr Davis you are correct about peripheral. However Mr Webster says periorificial means around an opening. I figured that got the point across. So sorry. I'm just after a deeper understanding and would rather hear from shooters who don't make a living from archery. I do read on the subject when time allows but sooner be shooting. This is not a pot stirring thread just looking for other perspectives. Please excuse any affronts to personal opinions.

No I don't think it's rude to call out a pot stirrer. He was involved in this thread that already addressed his concerns:

http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/TF/lw/thread2.cfm?threadid=285769&category=88#4146776

He's either totally lost his memory or just likes to start a fight.

There's no such think as instinctive shooting, just ask all of the gappers. LoL

Yes Mr Davis I had a comment in that thread. And that thread did dance around this topic however I asked a specific question here. Would you like weigh in on the actual question?

that's funny howard lol

if you watch videos of jeff kavanaugh or old george stout you will get the idea pretty quick

sorry george lol

X2 What Jim Davis said.I have to say. I liked how Jim nipped it right at the bud. Do a history search on instinctive shooting. It has been one of the most discussed topics on here over the years. I have nothing to add to this pot stirring thread about instinctive shooting. Because it absolutely does not exist. No such thing! NADDA! Zero! 0! ;-)

well said pat,thought you might have knew me when i was a young fella lol

Instinctive is probably a misnomer for the shooting method we refer to as "instinctive" because it is a learned process. We refer to throwing a baseball a lot as a comparison so I'll use it also. When we were little kids and first tried throwing a baseball to our dad we were horrible, dad was constantly running down errant throws. However the more we did it the more our subconscious learned what was correct from repetition and practice and we became more accurate. Same with shooting the bow without using a reference point (sight pin, arrow tip). Again it isn't truly instinctive in the truest sense of the word. The more repetitions and practice the more your brain recognizes what needs to be done to hit your mark. The mind or subconscious becomes comfortable with this action and performs it much better. Yes the eye does see the arrow shaft in your peripheral vision, split vision Howard Hill called it. And yes it is part of your sight picture and when the subconscious says this picture is correct we release and hit the mark. This is how I shoot and yes I do call myself an instinctive shooter. However it is a learned process and not truly instinctive.

I have always thought the "Like throwing a baseball" was a very incorrect analogy. You know there is another guy over there catching you throw that goes high, low, left or right?

Here's something to ponder. In the dark, with a laser dot, trained on my target (not attached to me or my bow, just propped up with a rock or something) all I can see is the laser dot on my target. I can shoot that dot, or very close to it, I don't have a "sight picture" I don't see my arrow or my bow. And I do it the same way when it's light out.

Some can do it, some can't. If you like shooting do it the way you're able. Enjoy it, get as good as you can get with what ever method works for you.

I was starting out a kid with a recurve he asked about the same question, How do I aim? I pointed out two older women a half block away that were talking. One kept pointing at stuff. I asked him what is she pointing at. He said, 'that tall red flower, now she's pointing at the tulips, now the other one is pointing at the bush in the middle." He could see that standing off to the side from 80 yards away, I said, "When you shoot your arrow it's right inline and under your eye, if you can see what they are pointing at, just think how much easier it is to see what you are pointing at. DON'T LOOK AT THE ARROW, you can see it well enough."

Pop why does Grandpa Pine sap a twig to the back of his bow if he shoots instinctive? I got to say he is a good shot! ;-)

Plenty of discussion in the history here so I won't belabor this old, dead horse. You will find though, that if you utilize all that is available in your training...including those nasty gaps, and string-walking thingies, you will become a better "instinctive" shooter. Funny how that works...preparation and practice equates to becoming a good shooter. The gozintos mix well together actually.

Well, I’m glad I Googled periorificial before I slam dunked Shatto54. I learned a new word today! Mr Davis I went to that link you went through all that trouble to dig up and discovered you don’t know how to spell plagiarism. What a hoot! People who live in glass houses should get dressed in the basement.

The only way you can be an instinctive shooter is if you nock your arrow on top of your nocking point. LOL Think this has been a long winter and it is evident in some of our comments. Sort of new here and don't want to be labeled a "pot stirrer"

As in all things, you have those that can, and those that throw stones cause they can't.

George, it's funny how for one type of archery "instinctive" is what drives the learning based on consciously omissions with the purpose that maybe the unconscious will have more liberty to take care of things, and for another type of archery "instinctive" is the highest level of mastery. None can happen without a very solid form base. "Form" like in "efficient and defined sequence of the shot".

Wow Jim, I just got out the instinctive popcorn maker.

I've received several different perspectives from this thread and several from the history search. Even some I didn't expect. Thank you for all. Now, when the wheelie guys from my club ask me that question, I may have a more intelligent answer, that spans more than just my opinion.

Just to make this interesting, some say it's a primitive popcorn maker, some say it's modern. Some say it's a traditional popcorn maker, I say it's just a popcorn maker.lol now back to the subject.

Ahhh, stir the pot. That's some funny S#!+ right there.

I've heard on threads/videos people describe their Gap method and someone else chime's in and says "well I do that but I call it Instinctive"

Jimmy Blackmon nailed it in his video when he was talking about his Gap method, explaining that once it's properly ingrained it becomes Instinctive like, meaning he doesn't have to consciously measure the gap or look at the arrow. The same can be said for Olympic Archers, they look through the sight and concentrate on the spot they want to hit.

Instinctive is just a term invented to make themselves feel more special than others, nearly all the good shots focus on where the want to hit, the riser, arrow tip, sight in used on a non cognitive level.

They're are a few exceptions where an Archer can hard aim but not many and even less at high level.

Don't be so concerned about putting a label on everything.

It's always a fractious discussion. I can tell you this. As a little boy, I was shooting rabbits with a little fiberglass bow with no instruction from anyone on any aspect of what I was doing.

I enjoyed doing it and I learned from my mistakes and got better at it.

It wasn't until I got old enough to read a few archery magazines that I started to worry about how it all worked. And like the bible tells us worrying won't grow one hair on your head. Probably won't make you a better shot either.

"Now, when the wheelie guys from my club ask me that question, I may have a more intelligent answer, that spans more than just my opinion."

I receive this question quite often, and I give the best answer I can based on what I know: "It's complicated". I am there to shoot, not to spend an hour talking.

I pop my corn in the microwave!!!

Its been around since the 70's so it has to be traditional

Just for popcorn eating societies.

This is traditional.

And the pencil case with the multiplication slide rule that came with it for a while. Sorry I couldn’t resist.

there's a difference between a type and a totally wrong word.

Just for the record, i wouldn't be caught dead eating Jiffy pop popcorn.

Western archery it's a type of archery and Eastern archery it's another type of archery. In western archery aiming system who's riding the shot sequence is not learnt with the purpose to become instinctive.

No such thing as "instinctive archery" just as there's no way any part of the shot sequence using our present knowledge of cognitive neuroscience can be described as subconscious.

If you want a serious discussion on the acquisition and repetition of neuro kinematic motor skills ... I'm all for it... I'v retired from 38 years work in research and applied human neuro kinesiology I still read research papers every day and teach movement physiology to post graduates but I would imagine some people's five minute google search and twenty minutes watching youtube videos trumps my meager pathetic knowledge

Laughing. Wow. This subject always amuses me. There are those on one hand that refuse to admit instinctive shooting exsists and there are those that insist it does.

I explain my ability to hit tiny objects from mid air with the bow behind my back with various throwers tossing the pill as “target aquistion”. This cuts down on the arguments. My eyes follow the target and send info to my brain which in turn tell my hands and arms what to do. Another way I describe it, “HTTMH”.

His talent through my hands. I’ve only been shooting instinctively 47 years. Hope to get the hang of it someday.

Frank Addington

PS Yes instinctive is a valid shooting style.

Frank ....

You and I come from completely different directions on this subject ... a subject, I believe, is worthy of serious grown up discussion.

Just do it.

Is it instinctive to pull down your pants before you go to the bathroom or automatic? I've been doing that for about 52 yrs. I can't bust an aspirin but Im pretty good at hitting the bowl everytime. Seriously though, Frank you inspire me. I do just keep shooting and it keeps getting better and better. I believe I like to shoot my bow. I believe I'll be good enough to hunt with confidence this fall. For some of us. That's all that matters. nybubba

What did the Indians do? (Oops! Native Americans) Draw, point and shoot.

Seems like everyone has different definitions of instinctive, don't know about all the other big words. It seems like if something was instinctive you would not have to practice. If you don't have any aiming system you should be able to do it blindfolded. I don't use any kind of sights but I have to practice and I have to keep my eyes open. I call it shooting my bow. >>>----> Ken

It's like pornography. It's hard for me to explain it but I know it when I do it.

The single thing that is "instinctive" from shooting "instinctive" is to position your body in a "good enough" position toward the target that will facilitate the trowing of the ball/shooting the arrow/launching a spear "somewhat" accurately. The rest is a learnt process. You learn what is the best way to position your bow and arrow for an efficient shot through "trial and error" learning mode - if you are alone and not told about this you will always be in trial and error learning mode. The quicker you are told what to do, the better you are. Rick Welch is making the instinctive shooters to shoot way better than when they come to him because he knows what it takes actually to be a good "instinctive" shooter. And is all about form, repeatability, consistency and trust.

Most guys are not mentally capable of shooting instinctively. If they reference their arrow without trying to do so, they are not concentrating hard enough.

Whether aiming with the arrow or not, you must hold for at least 3 seconds to hit what you are shooting at.

That's one of the fallacies of archery that is bringing the two parties at war. There is no proof that 3 seconds it is what makes a shot to be accurate. Koreans that are the best in the world in archery have a 2 seconds before releasing time. I give again Rick Welch as example because he is a reliable source for "instinctive" who's teaching to hold 2 seconds. His reasoning being that the body needs 2 seconds at full draw to get in equilibrium under the bow pressure - aka stabilizing your bow hand. BUT he is saying that an archer is not over-bowed if he holds at anchor 3 seconds. His rule of 2 seconds applies for heavy-close-to-archer's limit shooting bow. The single rule that dictates how much the arrow stays at anchor is dictates but in how much time you are able to hold the bow hand stabilized on the target.

All the above is why I called out the original poster. Anybody who has watched this forum for a couple of years knows that any thread that mentions "instinctive" will just degenerate into useless bickering. I say useless, because even if somebody makes sense, nobody pays attention.

PS Last phrase went wrong before editing: The rule should be dictated by how much time it takes to the archer to get stable under the pressure of the bow, not by how much some are saying.

I used a gap when shooting the Instinctive Division during a NFAA event.

there is also snap shooting ,pull back and release. call it what you may but to me if it is going to work ,it's called practice

You can disagree, bu it doesn’t make it true. The brain takes care of that without you agreeing or not. You think too much about formal, I say natural. Take a photo of yourself at full draw from target perspective or at someone who never shot a bow. From whatever croocked position you want. The body alignes with the arrow toward the target.

I regard “instinctive” as something you can do spontaneously. I can eat things I know I shouldn’t eat, without thinking about it until after I’ve eaten it bc it’s instinctive.

Rev Stacy Groscup was perhaps the premier instinctive shooter of our generation. He called it reflex shooting.

I think instinctive shooting takes a decent amount of these qualities to be efficient: Good hand-eye coordination Fairly good vision. (Stacy wore glasses by the way but that allowed him to have sharp vision) Lots of practice and fairy consistent form.

These vary from person to person. Some have a natural gift, just some quarterbacks seem to have it, some don’t. There’s not a sight or aiming drive on a ball yet these guys make amazing throws every game.

Perhaps there is “aiming” on a subconscious level. But I never reference my bow or arrow, I stare intently at my intended target.

Frank

"I used a gap when shooting the Instinctive Division during a NFAA event."

Ha ha, I did too......and nobody knew!!!!

I do not hold at anchor at all. I pull through the corner of my mouth and release. I shot a 124 out of 150 on the feta target at tue night league. I do not aim in any "site way", I point, I "aim" if you want to call it that, by looking at part of my target and executing my form. I shoot many 1' groups at 20 yards this way. This is what works for me, your mileage probably will differ, and that is the way it should be.

Instinctive Division is another stupid way to ef peoplle. It’s created for bows made from anything else than metal. The single aiming system banned is stringcrawl. Shooting gap in Instinctive division is not a sin.

Stringcrawl aka stringwalking and fix crawl due to the index touching the nock rule.

Elderly OCR Yes, you can shoot like John Shultz bent over your head, but chances to be accurate without knowing how to align the segments and stretch the sinews are close to zero. I don't say zero because luck is a factor to take in consideration since is the reason we appeared no matter how you look at it - Bible or Evolution. And any hunter who respected himself in the past was more predator than clown. I don't say he was not shooting from any position, but he was damn sure that what was counting in the shot it was pointing in the direction his attention was.

One my favorite 18 yard shots in my back yard is the comfortable laying on my back in a reclining lawn chair shot. There is a catch, those lawn chairs are way too low, so once I am on it, I like to stay put and have someone else get my arrows. Sure my first shot is a total guess, if I have not done it for a while, but the on board guidance system remembers the ratio of where I was and where I missed. I remembered where about the point was, just sorta kinda move the bow and arrow the distance opposite the miss and the next ones start hitting as accurate as if I was standing up. No big trick to it and not difficult, except the gap or sight picture is above the mark and not under it. The hard part is squatting low enough to get my butt on the low seat, my hips and back just don't like that.

Wow Tim, you really kicked an ant hill with this one.

I know the definition of instinctive, sharp and clear, as long as I don't try to put it in words. Then it hides. Sound familiar?

This made me smile. I had to read it twice. Now you know the truth and it was explained completely by some of the best. Now if you can find a dead cow for a penetration test, all your questions will be answered. Good luck

subconscious gapping is not instinctive, altho all the gappers want you to think that, kinda like religion.

it's hand eye coordination and it is like throwing a baseball in a way, your hand/bow arm is directing the arrow to go where you are looking. Shooting in the dark at a laser dot will help you develop the feel.

I usually as other instinctive shooters just don't click on this stuff, but all I can say is I never understood how someone could tell me how I shoot . I know how I shoot and you don't so you can say whatever makes you happy but I shoot instinctive by looking at what I want to hit and that is all it is. You should try it sometime you might like it but it takes a little time and not shortcuts as everyone seems to want to make it. I would say more I even did then deleted it because there's no use in trying to tell someone something they don't want to hear. Root

I’m what you call an instinctive shot

Been doing it that way for 40 plus years

With that said I know I’m really a subconscious gaper :)

When you make a TRUE instinctive shot everything outside of the spot that you are intensely concentrating on is blurry or out of focus.

Have a patch for a jacket that says "Instinctor" on it. Got it when I shot Instinctive.

Instinctive nowdays must be sorta like when you go out, jump on a brush pile, and scare the rabbits. That's really "point and hope". Nowdays I still shoot instinctive and only check where the point of my arrow is in relation to the target when I draw my bow and look down the shaft. Some call that point placement/target relationship a gap.

Ron

These days everything is blurry :)

"I shoot instinctive by looking at what I want to hit and that is all there is to it"

I'm a Barebow Stringwalker, I also look at what I want to hit, like most other aiming methods it's a requirement.

Root I'm not picking on you or trashing Instinctive, just pointing out there are more simularities than differences. We're all doing the same thing, we just came from opposite directions.

I admit I haven't read all these replies...however....

I used to shoot "instinctive". I was never really good at it. I missed so many "chip" shots at deer that I quit and went back to finger shooting my compound with sights. I shot right over and /or under several whitetail deer at ranges as close at 10 yards. That was 20 plus years ago. Around 8 years ago I picked up a recurve again and gave it another try. I started shooting instinctive again and my accuracy was a little better than years ago but not consistent. I began shooting what I'd say was "gapstinctive"...consciously aware of the point of my arrow but still just "looking at the spot", be still aware of my arrow point. My shooting improved a lot, but still I felt improvement was needed. I even killed a few deer shooting this "gapstinctive". But, still not really happy with day after day consistency. Once deer season was over this past fall/winter, I switched from split finger "gapstinctive" to shooting 3 under and actually gap shooting. 3 under was really foreign for a couple weeks but I stuck with it. I've finally got to getting a clean release with 3 under, which took some time, not easy to do after shooting split so long. After a few months now shooting 3 under and absolutely using the arrow point as a reference and using the point gap for distances, my shooting has improved very considerably. I can now shoot 20 arrows and if I don't let my form slip, put all 20 arrows within a tight group at normal hunting ranges. Shooting "gapstinctive" before, I was doing great to put 10-14 arrows into a tight group. Several other arrows would be scattered all around the target...flyers, I called them, but they really weren't "flyers"...they were simply bad shots by trying to "burn a hole" in the target and simply dropping the string when it felt good. Well, the shot sequence WAS good, my release was smooth, follow through good, all that, but I simply missed my aim. 3 under and gapping I now have a solid reference for aiming and if I miss now, its not because I didn't aim, its a sloppy shot from me.

If you really want to get a feel for what instinctive shooting is, and how it's learned (and yes it's applicable to archery) do a search on Lucky McDaniel. He was maybe THE best "instinctive" shooter that ever lived. And he had a system of doing it.

“And he had a system of doing it.”

LMAO

A system for doing something “Instinctive”.. but it’s true.

All it is is hand-eye coordination. If you want to get good at it, you have to practice.

But there are some ways of practicing that help you learn faster than others; trouble is, none of them are Instinctive enough for the Instinctive True Believers.

Helpful hint. Arrows go where you point them, so it makes s sense to check where they’re pointed before you let them go.

When I see threads like this show up I'd like to see more explanations regarding instinctive shooting, not so much of the skeptical remarks, or the "quit trying to stir the pot" remarks. Mostly because I'd like to hear better ways of describing instinctive shooting than the explanation I can give.

Men like Lajos Kassai are apex of instinctive archery.

Back in the 50's and 60's you either shot freestyle or instinctive.

That's with a sight or without one. Not sure when it got complicated.

I used to come on here and try to explain it, but I soon learned that many folks want nothing more than to discredit the method and/or demoralize those who do it, and so explaining it almost instantly degraded into defending it, or worse, just arguing about it for the sake of arguing. Screw that. I'm out. I also came to realize that I don't necessarily have to correct folks I feel are mistaken. It's perfectly ok to let them be. This applies to other conversations and facets of life as well.

I have started folks out and they most definitely needed an aiming method, to keep them from disintegrating my garage wall. My deflated red rubber ball about where the arrow shelf or bow hand would come in line with the target really helps them settle down. A couple of them always turn into what one could call instinctive shooters. A person's on board programming does the work whether one acknowledges it or not. The level of acknowledgement is what defines the aiming category. There is no right or wrong, whatever works.

When i shoot i see only the target , how i know i shoot instinctive is after my shot i have no recollection of anything but the target

dean I have never even held 1 second at full draw when my finger touches my face the arrow is gone and Ive managed to be pretty accurate. I'm done, will not respond again thanks for the controversy.

I think there are those folks who truly shoot instinctive, and are darn good at it. I envy those folks who do and are good at it. I tried it for a long time and finally come to the conclusion I just cant do it with any regularity. I owe it to the game I send an arrow downrange at to be as accurate as I possibly can. For me that means gap shooting.

Rooty I was kidding about long holds. I am in the John Schulz school of 'hold it you're wrong' school. Practice the shot that you would use on game, I shoot my tightest groups when I have myself setup with arrows that are bop net, the anchor and the point touch come at the same time. I have not missed a shot at deer in years, other than one branch deflection on a very alert buck and one when by bow limb slapped a twig on release. I got both of those deer with a quick second shot. I know that I take a mental snap shot of my arrow as I come to anchor. Give me arrows that are too long and I will at first draw too far, I can see things start to go off line, I do not immediately release and my head goes back to where the shot feels, looks, or whatever is lined back up. On deer shots over 25 yards, I must confess that I squeeze on the hold a part of a second. I pull the broadhead blade to my finger. Slightly varied draw lengths are no big deal under 20 yards for one shot, but over 25 yards exact draw lengths get more critical.

DarrinG thats fine if you shoot that way. That is great and that you acknowledge other people do shoot instinctive. I have never shot any other way I dont know how you shoot and would never tell somebody else that they don't shoot the way they say just because I don't understand it. Now I'm done

well said jeff, i totally understand your method of thought

Although I don't think that it is available any more, Bob Wesley wrote the BEST book that I have ever seen on learning to shoot "instinctively" using the 'Hill" system.

I would love to find another copy, I lost mine in a house fire years ago.

The way that Bob taught the method it was easy to understand, and easy to practice. He also used to have a shooting school where he taught the method.

Good post Jeff.

I miss the good ole days when the STAR METHOD, was the hot topic.

I was in contact with Bob before and when that book came out. i have letters from him and still have one copy of his pamplet, not for sale. My tempo developed into something a bit more fluid than described in his book, but it simply works. Anyone can do it.

Jim, you would have made a heck of a drill sergeant. :) Jawge

I instinctively ask questions.

I instinctively offer opinions.

I have intuitively (oh be it slowly) started learning to refrain from either.

:-)

Rick

Peace, RIP Roger.

I wrote this on here back in 2011 I think it's as relevant today

The Bernstein Problem and Instinctive Archery.

There’s been a avalanche of debate recently on the topic of Instinct and the techniques adopted by the “Instinctive Archer”. The robust and forceful nature of the debate reflects the passion, dedication and enthusiasm of archers who have attempted to describe and analyse aspects of human activity that are commonly considered some of the most complex and complicated of all human neuro muscular and neuro locomotor activity.

The debate is centred around explaining how the instinctive archer is able to concentrate all his visual attention and focus on the intended target of the arrow and executes the shot sequence without reference to other peripheral factors. The popular explanation of the technique is that, the execution of the shot sequence is made at a sub-conscious mental level without conscious intervention and relies on the “instinct” or reflex action of the archer to co-ordinate, regulate and monitor all the various movements and component parts of the body necessary to send the arrow to the intended target. There is little doubt within the archery community that there are practitioners of the Instinctive technique who are able to shoot with astonishing consistent accuracy and precision at both static and moving targets and the success and popularity of the instinctive technique has led to a library of books and magazine articles supporting and promoting “The Instinctive Archer”.

The conflict arising within the debate is not the instinctive technique itself, but the explanations given as to how it works. How is the human brain able to control, regulate, adjust and executes the shot sequence with repeatable accuracy with all the archers attention concentrated on a single intended target while ignoring any and all peripheral stimuli and how is the human brain able to make the necessary strategic choices required for the shot to be successful?.

This phenomenon has been known to Neuro scientists for decades and what the Instinctive archer is attempting to explain is commonly referred to in academic circles as “The Bernstein Problem”. (not to be confused with the Bernstein mathematical differential equation)

Nicolai Alexsandovich Bernstein was a Russian mathematician and Neurophysiologist who first wrote on the subject in the 1920’s after observing Russian metalworkers at the Soviet Institute of Labour. Bernstein observed how metalworkers could accurately perform repeated hammer blows on an anvil while all their concentration and attention was directed to the target of the hammer blow without reference to the position to the hammer and any moving parts of their body. Bernstein wanted to understand the mechanisms used by the human brain to perform these “locomotor tasks” and explain the underlying neurophysiology to the scientific community. His investigation into this complex problem would dominate the next thirty years of his working life.

Bernstein began his research by studying the spatial trajectories of the shoulder, the elbow, the wrist and the hammer head of the metalworkers as they performed repeated hammer blows. He achieved this by constructing a crude version of the sophisticated three dimensional motion capture apparatus we use today in modern movement analysis. Bernstein attached small light bulbs to the joint centres of the arms and the hammer head and filmed the movement of the lights during the hammer blow movements. He then analysed and plotted the spatial location of each light bulb on each frame of film relative to each other and relative to the fixed location of the target position.

Bernstein discovered that there was no single trajectory pathway of the joint centres but large multiple variations in the trajectory pathways of the joint positions. He also discovered that the position of the hammer head at the end of the blow always remained constant, in other words the hammer head was always delivered to the precise spatial location without the metal worker paying any attention to the movement of the shoulder, elbow or wrist and that somehow the brain had compensated for variations in the movement pathway of the body parts.

Bernstein developed the concept that the brain was capable of producing “Engrams”, small learned pieces of movement information contained within the brain that are capable of being used individually for simple tasks or grouped together to form more complex and sophisticated “repeatable” patens of locomotor activity. Many researchers in Neuro sciences throughout the world, would, in years later, confirm the existence of neural engrams often now commonly described as “Patten Generators”. Bernstein also knew that, although the activation of neural engrams was controlled by the central nervous system, information coming into the brain from sensory receptors contained throughout the body in the peripheral nervous system could influence the activity.

Bernstein then began his ground breaking research into how the brain organised and processed the sensory information coming into the brain and how the brain used that information to ensure the hammer blow was always in the correct spot. Bernstein discovered through experimentation that the brain is capable of processing sensory information in both series (one thing at a time) and parallel formats (many things at the same time). Movements of the human muscular-skeletal system are capable of an infinite amount of degrees of freedom at any one time within three dimensional space, Bernstein discovered that the human motor cortex was able to disregard degrees of freedom movement not relevant to the task and that the human brain produces a hierarchy of high frequency compare and contrast algorithms from sensory neurons to regulate a paten of activity executed from the Cerebellum. Decades later, this pioneering work would, become the foundation knowledge of Neuro science research in institutions around the world.

So Bernstein discovered that humans are capable of performing movement actions with repeatable precision while focusing all their visual attention on a fixed spot but there are large degrees of variation to be found within the movement pathways. The brain initiates an orchestrated series of pre programmed commands to execute the task. That task is consistently receiving feedback stimuli from specialised sensory neurons located throughout various parts the body and at any time the brain is capable and willing to accept or disregard the information that may compromise the quality of the task.

So when the “instinctive archer” describes concentrating all his or her focused attention onto that small target object or hitting that small aspirin thrown into the air, that’s exactly what they are doing. But, when they describe the activity as “instinctive, reflex or sub conscious, they’re attempting to answer the Bernstein Problem with an answer that is incorrect, and this is where I and I suspect Nicolai Bernstein would have to respectfully disagree with the instinctive archery community. What they’re actually describing is the initiation and execution of a complex, co-ordinated paten of neuro-muscular and neuro-chemical activity, learned and refined over thousands of arrow shots, regulated and controlled by some of the most complex human neural activity over which they have complete and conscious cerebral control.

I suspect archers will be discussing, debating and arguing this topic with the same degree of passion, enthusiasm and love of archery and hunting for decades to come and we’ll all eventually come to the same conclusion .... who care’s .... now ....shall we go and shoot some arrows?.

Phil would you say those pattern generators Are identical for all aiming methods?

People seen to forget that all Archers are focused on the spot they want to hit (you will always find exeptions to the rule but in general it's for most)

A lot of arguments used that it's not possible to not see the arrow right in front of you, well your nose is right in front of you, but the brain doesn't process it.

Zetabow ...

.... Steve the underlying process is identical in all people .. it's the motor state space / sensory state space mechanism we have to establish the location and position of objects within 3D space.

I had this conversation with Jim Fetrow (Dire Wolf) in 2012 ..

"Your eyes construct a two dimentional sensory co-ordinate "space state" system, where the output (the two angles formed by the eyes) are represened by two discreet seperate motor state spaces. The two lines ( eye a, eye b) intersect at the object in real space. It's not instinct or sub-conscious I'm afraid, just good old fashioned neurocomputational physics."

Jims reply ...Phil..ERRR..Thanks..:)

In layman's terms..you are saying that with both eyes open the mind records what the eyes see and based on some experience, compute distance to a distant or close object of our intent by less than 3" of triangulationary ocular perceptions..

and THAT is what helps us reach the half full pint of ale on the table almost inerrantly..:)????

IF I failed to get the gist of your treatise, please help us..:) Jim

I replied ....Ok Jim ... seeing as it's you

There are two conditions that come together that allows us to identify the three dimentional location of an object ... Sensory state space and Motor state space. SSS deals with the information coming into the eye from the outside world (light, shadow scale paralax etc). MSS deals with pre and post synaptic information from inside the body (example movement of the muscle Levator Palpebrae Superioris).Between them the send information to the motor centres of the brain to execute a response.

Thanks Phil, great info.

Look Brady Ellison video, he states he looks at the target and focused on where he wants to hit, you will hear the same from top Stringwalkers to Gappers. I did say there are always exceptions to the rule so it is about what your mind feels the most comfortable doing. All the sighted archers do this, if the look at the pin/dot they will end up in an aiming battle that soon ends up as TP.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5XbPs7d1_iQ

It is not that complicated, no wonder most have difficulty.

The beauty of Archery is you can make it as simple as you want BUT If you want accuracy and constency of the best shooters then you have to work harder to reduce Form errors. Some are quite happy with their level, others want more and are willing to put that kind of work in, neither way is wrong, it's a personal journey.

I realize target shooters cannot use their hunting skills to get within their effective range, and therefore must strive for longer distance accuracy.

Paul Brunner put out one of the best shooting videos ever, for the stickbow hunter that is. Won't help the target shooters much at competition distances.

Zeta, to be a very good instinctive shooter you need to work at least double than an archer who's using another aiming style. Get your shooting sequence the same every time anytime and the aiming system is less important. Once your body is part of the aiming system - this is what "instinctive" implies when you read what Phil is saying - the rest is practice, practice and when resting practice more.

The only “pot-stirring” around this forum that I’ve seen, has all been initiated by the “Big Spoon” himself, Joe Frisky. And I like to see the break in taking everything way too serious. This thread like most of the other threads, is usually a re-hash of one several threads that have been beaten mercilessly into the ground. That said, this forum constantly gets new members, and if they don’t know about checking the archives for past threads, they’ll ask out of inexperience. I understand that and just roll with it. I like this forum the most, but sometimes digging in our heels isn’t necessary. SO, what does “Instinctive” archery mean? Who shoots a high draw weight over 25#? How do I know where to anchor? How do we know anything? Bring on the same question 24/7, it doesn’t bother me...^<>^

"I realize target shooters cannot use their hunting skills to get within their effective range, and therefore must strive for longer distance accuracy."

I realized that truck drivers can't make U-turns.

PS You realized that what you said and I said is nonsense, right?

Like I said, most guys cannot shoot instinctively, best to use a reference or sight.

After over 175 big game kills, you will not change my mind.

Huh? I don't want to change the mind to nobody, is a very viable aiming system.

I shoot instinctive, never see the arrow even in my peripheral vision. If one does, they need to concentrate on the intended target spot more, it is that simple.

I do gap when shooting fish as I have to adjust for water distortion and depth, aim lower that is.

Off topic, how someone teaches his son to shoot instinctive when there is nothing but empirical knowledge?

Go roving, shoot hundreds and thousands of arrows over a period of years and at varying distances. Forget the internet experts, they are just that.

Just go shoot, no shortcuts..... and one will get pretty damn good.

I've got video of me shooting consecutive aerial targets, too fast to be a tourney Gappers as such, you certainly develop good spatial awareness, plus it's fun.

The more variety in your shooting the more confident you become, don't be stuck in one box/label, be yourself and not what someone thinks you should be.

Agree with Elderly.

Guys...you HAVE to see the arrow. Now, I'm not going to get in to a urinating contest over whether one does or does not see it. Just some simple facts about how your eyes and mind work.

IF you never saw the arrow (whether consciously or subcinsciously) your mind would never be ebale to interpret, and imprint the trajectory of the arrow. Simply seeing where the arrow impacts isn't enough. Whether you do or don't concentrate on the arrow is a COMPLETELY different thing.

Now, that being said, the process is not nearly as complicated as it gets made out to be here on here.

And, every truly effective "instinctive" shooter can tell you that they know what the trajectory of the arrow looks like.

Further more, there is absolutelynoting wrong with seein the arrow. Your brain HAS to have something to use for initial calibration.

The only thing that is happening with the method that Bob Wesley teaches or taight (placing markers on the ground) is that it gives you visual stimulation and feedback on arrow trajectory. That cuts down on the time required to become effective.

You have various sense in your body. To intentianally not use some of them is just silly.

Actually that isn't true OCR. With a slingshot you can indeed see the trajectory of the projectile. I shoot them all the time.

You can easily tell if you shot over, under, left, or right. Nad your mind makes adjustments related to that miss.

Being able to interpret your misses is AT LEAST as important in learnig to shoot using this method as the hits.

If Aspirinbuster can hit lil aspirins out of the air without a sight then instinctive is real

If Aspirinbuster can hit lil aspirins out of the air without a sight then instinctive is real

what if your mind makes its own picture of the arrows arc , sorta like it does shooting Trap or skeet

[[[ what if your mind makes its own picture of the arrows arc , sorta like it does shooting Trap or skeet ]]]

Valid question.

Answer is - it works.

If you have shot a certain setup enough to where you are very familiar with the arc of the arrow, then you can quite often envision that arc to the target prior to the shot, and just shoot where you are laying the arrow into that arc.

Like I said, it works, but you have to know your gear, and yourself for it to be consistent.

Then, that begs to the question - How are you gauging your arrow into that arc?

Rick

Another thing that comes to mind about this is . Hitting a golf ball, although i watch the ball get struck i don't see its flight for some time .. but during my visualizing the pre shot im not aware of the late visualization , i think thats what i do shooting an arrow

One's eyes are capable of seeing the arrow, of course........... but the brain does not process it as a reference, or even remember it. Therefore, it is not actually visualized and referenced.

Too many of you are looking for shortcuts. Only the internet experts have those, trust me.

Howard Hill used shortcuts when he said he is using the arrow as reference in his swing draw aiming system?

" ... One's eyes are capable of seeing the arrow, of course........... but the brain does not process it as a reference, or even remember it."

.... Could you please explain how you know that, and, how do you think the brain discriminates between what it see's and what it chooses not to reference

I meant shortcuts to INSTINCTIVE shooting, not split vision. You have to get out there and shoot arrows at effective hunting ranges until you get good at it, simple as that. I cannot help you with longer range target shooting, I do not do that type of shooting.

There is nothing wrong with sights, or reference points, but if you practice enough you will not require them to fill your tag.

Watch the old Paul Brunner tapes, good info! Just go shoot, forget the over analyzing and excuse making.

Because when I get my drivers license they check my peripheral vision. I am quite certain a drawn arrow is within my peripheral vision capability, but I cannot ever remember seeing it when shooting, never ever.

Addington said it best. Call it what you want to buy when you pick up a rock and throw it at something you just concentrate on the object you want to hit.

I do think practice is what programs the computer for shooting instinctive.

Right on TGbow.

x2 tgbow,keep it simple

Guys, you are misinterpreting to a certain degree what Aspirinbuster is saying. And he will correct me if I am wrong. But, he can see the arrow come out of "paradox" or not when he shoots. That's how acute his eyesight is. And you better believe his bran remembers that. And tells his body how to correct for it.

You brain DOES use the flight of the arrow and whether you miss to the right, to the left, high or low as a means to correct for the next shot. And why one would assume other wise is beyond me. If it didn't, even if you were shooting by whatever method is being described as "instinctive" in this instance, how would your body know how to correct the shot? Answer is it wouldn't. If your brain doesn't understand, tell your body parts what to do, they don't do anything. Remembering that you see the arrow, and realizing that you see the arrow at 2 completely different things.

Elderly, my apologies. I misinterpreted what you were saying.

There are short cuts to instinctive shooting. And one of the biggest ones, and took me years to understand it, is to accept the fact that there are certain things that have to be seen and observed to do it successfully. To use the sensory feedback from what you see to shorten the learning curve. To simply go out and aimlessly shoot 1,000's of arrows, (not accusing anybody of dong that, but it sure gets talked about here a bunch) without a system on what to look for, and how to address what you see won't get you there any time soon.

"I meant shortcuts to INSTINCTIVE shooting, not split vision. You have to get out there and shoot arrows at effective hunting ranges until you get good at it, simple as that. I cannot help you with longer range target shooting, I do not do that type of shooting."

Instinctive shooting is good for ANY type of ranges. The more you practice a distance, the better you become. John Shultz was not taught to use split vision and he is not a bad shot. But he was taught to aim the arrow toward the target even if he is not looking at the arrow. To wrap it, if someone comes to you and he says he is looking where he shots but he is not happy with his ratio of hit-miss you will say him what?

I wont put an Instinctive label on this but I just pointed where I looked.

For Aerial shots I established a relationship between my bow hand pointed finger and the target, actually it was the knuckle because I was gripping the bow. It seemed natural and easy to establish this spatial relationship between arrow and where the knuckle pointed as we do it all the time, in every day life when we point things out to people.

Just the way I did it, found it easy and effective, dont even know if it works for others or if anyone ever tried the same technique.

I agree instinctive is good for any distance IF you practice at those distances and can pick a spot. I do not practice longer distance shooting and would likely gap at those ranges. I rely on my stalking and hunting abilities to get me close to intended game and therefore reduce wind and game movement variables. I do occasionally practice shooting out to 40 yards and normally shoot at deer and bear sized game at 30 yards and closer, preferably within 20 yards. This is my 50th year of stickbow hunting all over the US and Canada. Instinctive barebow shooting has served me well, especially when coupled with getting close. I do not "wing at game".

Actually, this is my 49th year of stickbow hunting.

I easily hit the close spot I focus on at daybreak and sunset, where the arrow isn't easily seen. Regular shooting teaches you where the arrow is going to hit at normal close range.

Slingshots were brought up several posts above. I have seen youtube vid of guy shooting slingshot at static targets and aerials, at waist level, and easily hitting what he is looking at. All manner of athletes, and all manner of animals, fish, and insects, accomplish this instinctive action with no thinking whatsoever. They just do it.

How come I always get mentioned regarding pot stirring? I can't think of a single instance where I ever stirred the pot around here. Not one. By the way- I'm a true instinctive shooter.

Joe

All life on this planet has innate instinctive ability. Man is the only species that has the ability to analyze, and over analyze, everything. All other species automatically accomplish feeding themselves and reproducing without the slightest thought whatsoever. They just do it.

Like all instinctive shooters Joe, you are a closet aimer. I am an aimer, but I am a closet instinctor when I am in a hurry. My favorite instinctive shooters are those that shoot three under, pull the arrow nock to their eye, gun barrel the arrow, squint or close the other eye and then say they don't see the the arrow. If it works for them that's a good thing, but it really gets fun when they get mad about it.

If you have the same anchor point every time, the bow hand calls the shot but you learnt that the arrows goes where you intended to because of the tandem "bow hand - anchor point" (which by surprise defines the arrow). Change the anchor point every time you shoot and your bow hand will be worthless for accuracy. But this is just my opinion.

What he can pull and how is not the issue. You pull the string on the line you want the arrow to go because you know it hit last time. You can stop after 12" or 34" I really don't care. And btw, since someone is describing sarcastically "gun barrel the arrow", check what John Shultz is doing here. Is gun barrel the arrow.

Why should anyone care how someone shoots and what they call it?

Instinctive is just what someone called it and it stuck.

Like Gapping, when will people start saying gapping is just a visual perception/calculation based on visual memory not associated with a measurement?

The same thing, no reason to care if instinctive was called laser eye or burning and churning or focused energy or magic! lol

PS, do you really think anyone actually walks on a bowstring? bahahahahahaha!

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