I have been shooting traditional equipment for a couple of years now so I still consider myself a newbie.

When it comes to aiming, I have been an instinctive shooter however, I have read and watched some videos on Gap aiming and fixed gap aiming. I find that I am pretty interested in fixed gap aiming.

I am curious what everyone else uses, pros and cons, and thoughts in general.

Oh good......it's been a little while since we've had one of these. :o) Stay instinctive and use the Zen. :o) Regards

I shoot gap because I got tired of missing 3-D targets. I assume fixed gap is what is called fixed crawl.

Stay instinctive. If you want to use an aiming device, put a bow sight on your bow. I could care less how other archers shoot their bows, however you asked about Gap aiming. Why, if you are going to use the tip of your arrow as a sight would you not just use a bow sight? Seems like a more useful sight to me, adjustable, so you can zero your shot groups at different distances etc. I shot a 450 round last Tue. for the first time in ten months, shot instinctive, shot 361. Some decent recurve shooter with an Olympic recurve set up, with clicker, very good bow sight, stabs etc. shot 370. I think bare bow instinctive is best.

The object should be hitting what you're shooting at so work with what helps you do that. Zen is good for relaxation, breathing exercises, etc., and will help with whatever aiming method you use. And really, we all aim somehow if we are hitting anything regularly. Enjoy the sport the best way that allows you to have fun and be successful. When life is done, I doubt anyone will be asking how you aimed your bow and arrow.

Yes, fixed crawl is what I was referring to.

I will retell an old story for fun. I one town I lived there was a very good shot that claimed that he shot his tightest groups in total darkness. We shot in an old quonset hut the only window was the front door. We stuck a lighted sight pin in a match box with just pin hole to let the light out. we covered the front door with a sleeping bag, it was absolutely black in there. Someone with a id of a Bic lighter hung the match box with lighted sight pin on the 20 yard target wall, while the shooter was turned away. The all clear was given and he began shooting. When we turned the lights on he had arrows spread all over the back wall. He someone else arrow and shot with the lights on and nicked the box. I think instinctive shooters see what is in front of them as total sight picture and they can see the arrow pointing, its line up, its latitude and a bunch of other info for the brain to work with. It simply is not a mechanically measured gauge that is given full acknowledgement, but when it works, it works.

I bet you shoot what we call Gapstinctive.

There is some instinct involved, but you also incorporate that arrow tip in your perificial vision.

All instinctive are those guys who draw back and release immediately ; they tend to hunch down & cant.

Thats why i always said there is two major ways of shooting A & B.

A = upright, target/olympic type. Rod Jenkins , etc.

B = the more nostalgic traditionalists. These individuals tend to cant, hunch, and release immediately.

It is the mixing up of these 2 that confuses a new person trying to learn. Everything in Life- organize A, B, etc.

I take a mental visual snapshot of every arrow I shoot. I do cant my bow and at shots that are longer I also slow down my draw. I do not hunch into the shot very much. I do have one tendency, when I intentionally stop my draw for even a half second, so my wife can check my draw length, I tend lose about a quarter to half inch of draw. I anchor hard and drag my cheek as I pull through my release on my normal nonstop shot. I shoot tighter 25 yard groups shooting fast, than when I am stopping and gap shooting hard. I am not a target shooter as much as I am a small game hunter, although I spend many many hours a week shooting a target or stuff swinging in front of my target. I also enjoyed shooting a fully geared up target bow of one type or another most of my life with pure target form. For draw length control on the target bows I used a clicker. with my longbows my draw length control is the back of the broadhead or the back of the field point. I have some arrows that I some how cut long, original Acme cedars, with big black and white 5.5" feathers, I know I am over drawing when if feel the cold of the field point. I should shorten them, but the glue would gunk up my taper tool. Rabbit arrows, then soon enough I will be done with the long buggers.

Best advice I can give you Buckwheat is to avoid listening to folks who say you gotta do it this way, "cause thats how "trad" archers do it" like the plague. I call them neo-trad nazis. LOL

If you are bowhunting rabbits in close thick cover, you will not have time to stringwalk.

If you are stump shooting with a buddy, betting a $1 on who gets closest or hits that yellow flower on the side of the ridge you are pretty sure is 90 yards away, being a halfway decent gapper will probably win the dollar.

Don't limit yourself. Fundamentals are very important but a well rounded archer/bowhunter is able and capable of using multiple methods and techniques.

I do cant the bow, I don't notice that I hunch. Gapinstinctive is probably an accurate representation of what I try to do when I shoot.

Instinctive.. tried others but I don't know way any one would do it any other way if you do it well. I don't have to think about distance, don't have to walk my fingers down the string etc if an animal appears suddenly I just draw it back while looking at what I want to hit and let rip!

I also like that I don't put any extra stress on the lower limb using a standard split finger grip.

That is another good topic I think. Split finger vs 3 under. I used to shoot split finger but found once I tried 3 under it was more comfortable and my groupings were tighter. I tend to agree with what most everyone is saying and shoot what makes sense to you, what is most fun, and what you can get better results with. I imagine that it is very much individualized. I do enjoy the conversation about it though, I am always interested in what others opinions are and what works well for them as I think being open minded and incorporating different techniques will make me a more well rounded archer.

To shot good instinctive you need 2 things:

1 a very consistent and repetitive way of shooting - some call it form 2 shoot lots of arrows from any thinkable distance Without these 2, questioning aiming system (any type of it) is worthless imo.

Learning gap or anything else without 1 ingrained will give nothing.

PS to shoot not to shot - cell typo. PPS you should try anything looks tempting to you. All aiming systems are good, just people are different.

I've been tourney Archer for over 30 years and shot almost every shoot style and aiming technique.

Firstly they ALL work, some work better for certain situations and some are better suited to how your brain works.

All the good shots I know are flexible with their aiming, meaning they've assessing the best aiming method for a particular shot i.e. I would shoot Instinctive for very short shots or aerial shots and Gap for marked Field targets.

The disadvantages are it can take a while to figure out, the advantages are you can make any shot with confidence.

I'll tell you what you shouldn't do is let others dictate how you shoot to the point that you never become accurate.

Good form is one thing you CAN learn from others. But whether you shoot instinctive or gap should be your choice depending on what works best for you.

It is incredibly silly to continue using one or the other type of aiming (or not aiming) just because somebody else thinks its better.

I am a perfect example of that. I started shooting bows as a kid with fiberglass bows, then began hunting at age 12 with a Ben Pearson recurve. I was taught by my father, who was taught by my grandfather.

There was no such thing as internet, and magazine articles on "how you should shoot" were all but non-existent for me. So I learned on my own with the help of family. Sometime in the 80's I read a magazine article on 3 under vs split finger. Up until that time I just thought everybody shot split finger, but tried the new found method and liked it...I shoot 3 under to this day.

From young on up I gap shot using the arrow, I just learned to do it on my own..I DIDN"T KNOW ANY DIFFERENT!! I thought everybody shot that way. Then as I got older through magazine articles ect...I became familiar with the terms, "instinctive" and "gap shooting" But I continued shooting "my way".

Then along came the internet and debates like this. I went through a period of trying everybody else's methods. It did way more harm than good. I found myself trying this stance that stance, trying to shoot instinctive and everything else under the sun. It caused my overall accuracy to suffer. One day I'd shoot really good the next day I'd shoot 10" or 12" groups.

I finally got fed up with being a puppet on a string and went back to my good old way of gap shooting.

Somebody on here used the term "gapstinctive" I suppose you won't find that term in the archers Bible but for those of us that gap shoot but really no longer think about it.. we can kinda relate to the term.

There are days I can literally call my shot with scary accuracy. Those days are an archers high, you just don't miss. We all have day's like that, but how you shoot day in and day out on average is what counts, not just how you shot Mon a month ago.

I gap shoot or (gapstinctive) if you like the term, because I never have off days, I'm never "bad" day in day out I can be decently good.

I won't tell others which method to use, but I will say this...Pick one and perfect it, to many end up satisfied with mediocrity.

I am strictly a bowhunter and I find for "me" a three finger under hold with my middle finger in the corner of my mouth. I can draw put about 4" of daylight under a deer's chest cavity with the arrow point and release. It is an awfully good way to keep meat in the freezer. I've been doing that now for 41 yrs. I seriously doubt i'll ever try changing again.

Gap some on longer distances. Not so much on really short targets.

Many good hunters can use all techniques, depending on the situation. Keep it simple, spend more time shooting than questioning.

I can agree with that long narrative above. I just hate to see a new shooter go thru the 3 year confusion that i did. Having identified the different styles in my earlier post, i divided them into A and B.

I was bombarded with info from both all mixed up into one big soup bowl. No wonder i had a hard time. It wasn't until i pulled away from all the 3d shoots, all the friends except 1, and found Rod Jenkins that i cleared up fast.

Its just an opinion to get organized, seperate the styles into different catagories, and do not mix. This why i always say new shooter avoid shoots and crowds.

Thats good advice for all facets of life. When i was a State WL Agt, i pull up on a boat accident scene. Chaos. People running around the landing . Sheriff deputies approaching with info on note pads, family members crying, sometimes blood and bodies, maybe news crews, and they all looking at you because you are State.

Same thing kicks in- A, B, C, etc. Training kicks in. Any danger now ( gas tanks ) Medical, who are operators, who are passengers, where are they, alcohol, ........

Same thing with archery. A, B, Thats why i separate catagories. Instinct, Gap, upright Rod Jenkins style, or hunch cant Fred Bear style, Etc.

Its when it is all in one big soup bowl mixed together that you are doomed.

Dean I just read your post and I had to laugh at myself.

Back when we first got internet and I got it into my head that "instinctive" was the way to shoot, and I'd surely been doing it wrong by gap shooting all these years. I decided to try the shoot at a candle in the dark thing. No moon, and it's dark back in these mts here where we live. I put a candle on a 8" cinder block in front of my target. I was kind of leery of it so I stayed close and shot a couple arrows, and I didn't hit the candle, but I didn't miss the target either, but it was somewhat less than spectacular.

I got enough nerve up to move back to around 15 yards and it became very obvious I wasn't as instinctive as I thought. It was that experience and just general frustration that finally convinced me maybe I hadn't been doing it wrong all those years after all.

some might be able to shoot in total darkness....I'm not one of them.

I put the "stink" in instinctive. Listened to the people that told me just look at a spot, its like throwing a baseball... I made progress, did ok at 3d, harvested several deer. But, i shot over several deer, and when i missed a 3d or other target i really didnt know why. I know some can really shoot instinctive well and there are plenty of others that are legendary instinctive shots when they are at the keyboard. I felt that for me i had reached a point where i was no longer making progress and could be happy with my mediocre abilities or try something different. I now use a modified fixed crawl that is legal for 3d shoots and now when i hit or miss the target i know why. I My hats are off to the really good instinctive shooters. I never could make a basket in basketball and having limited vision in right eye, i shoot lefthanded and can't tell you what depth perception is. Get solid form first and then try different aiming or instinctive ways and find out what is right for you.

Learn gapping to become instinctive.

NOBODY learns instinctive to become a gapper, they quit instinctive because they aren't satisfied with the results.

Bowmania

Every arrow, bullet or anything else that was ever shot, and hit what it was pointed at was aimed, If it wasn't it was accident, and not likely to be repeated.

You can aim with complete awareness, or not it doesn't matter, but you're aiming.

One of the finest ways in the world to become an "instinctive" archer is to start out with an aiming system as Todd mentioned. Even bow sight. It allows you to leanr arrow trajectory at different yardages MUCH quicker than learning without an aiming system. It can cut the learning curve in half, simply because it let's you body become accustomed to the attitiude of your bow arm and hand to the taarget at different ranges, and that's what controls the trajectory.

"NOBODY learns instinctive to become a gapper, they quit instinctive because they aren't satisfied with the results."

Nobody really teaches "instinctive". There are no trainers for this, capable to tell people that in instinctive shooting the way you position your body-arms-bow-arrow is part of the aiming system. When you start to realize this is and what it takes to become good and it, learning form and applying an aiming system to it is the easy route to it. Most of the beginners want to go out and kill deer after 6 months of training. Who trains years before going out in the woods?

Putting a sight on a bow requires money, drilling a bow, adjustments, fiddling. Looking through a point at a gap requires non of these and I can set a gap instantly at full draw.

I also shoot instinctively at very close targets, running and flying game.

The reason I gap is I can guess the yardage close enough from 15 to 40 yards and set a gap in my mind and be very sure of hitting that target. When I relied on instinctive shooting, something I had done as a kid in the 50s, I would overshoot or undershoot targets. Not fun to search for your arrows in the leaves.

Develope you own system of aiming so you don't have to scratch in the leaves behind targets.

"NOBODY learns instinctive to become a gapper, they quit instinctive because they aren't satisfied with the results."

Nobody really teaches "instinctive". There are no trainers for this, capable to tell people that in instinctive shooting the way you position your body-arms-bow-arrow is part of the aiming system. When you start to realize this and what it takes to become good at it, learning form and applying an aiming system to it is the easy route to take. Most of the beginners want to go out and kill deer after 6 months of training. Who trains years before going out in the woods?

Instinctive shooting requires control of the mind, most people cannot do it.

Just look how many see a deer and fall apart, AKA buck fever. Some even panic when shooting an inanimate target, AKA target panic. If you do those kind of mind games, you cannot become an instinctive shooter.

I once asked Byron Ferguson if he was instinctive or a gapper. He said he was instinctive. I then asked how he made those long 100 yard shots. He said, “Those I gap.”. I asked him what the difference was and he said, “on the closer shots, I know the gap so well, I’m instinctive.”.

Bowmania

Missouribreaks....I have shot my share of deer, sadly it's gotten to the point that I don't even get the jitters anymore. This year I watched a buck bed down, get up take a few steps and bed down again...4 hrs later when he finally decided to get up, I killed him. Never once got the jitters, and I most certainly have control of my mental thought process.

But if I'm going to hit what I'm aiming at, I have to be able to see my arrow sometimes even use my arrow, sometimes not really think about it, but I obviously still use it, even if subconciously. My post above about me trying to shoot in the dark proved that.

I have no desire to tell another guy how he should shoot, or doubt that some can shoot totally instinctive. But I personally am not satisfied with my instinctive skills and it has nothing to do with my mental concentration.

instinctive shooters will emphasize "picking a spot" aim small...miss small.

If you think concentration and picking a spot are just for instinctive shooters, then you need to get that kind of thinking out of your head, or plan on missing and making some poor hits.

concentration is for both types of shooters.

Like I stated, most guys cannot shoot instinctive.

Why not simply add a site to the bow, lots of guys have done that for over 60 years?

Should be sight, not site. They are traditional, saw them used in the 1960's.

I don't have anything against actual sights on a bow, just not for me, not on a longbow or recurve anyway, compound yea.

I really don't feel I need an actual sight, I do pretty good with just using the arrow.

As far as sights being traditional? I rarely get involved in debates like that because I personally don't hunt with a stickbow because I want to be traditional. I hunt with one because I alway's have.

Guess I'm kind of pre-compound, and never bothered setting aside the recurves and longbows.

I enjoy shooting a compound, and using the sights release and the whole sha-bang but recurves and longbows have always been my main thing. There is one constantly hanging on a rack downstairs, I shoot it daily.

Which reminds me I haven't shot my compound for awhile, might get it out today and dust it off (gasp) LOL

I have tried to learn to gap, but the arrow is always gone before I get the chance. I do feel more like a Neanderthal after reading this thread, all hunched over and canted sideways.

The one thing a natural instinctive shooter like Buckwheat needs to consider is if he hits anchor on every shot. If not practice hitting anchor without worrying about hitting anything until your full natural form is once again automatic and consistent. Then go back to cool thing that natural shooters have, that see, shoot and hit program. Do not rate yourself by comparing your group size to someone with a bow sight, or is a 15 yard three under target shooter. Watch Fred Bear videos, adventure on film.

I built a bow for a guy a year ago that was switching from compounds to a longbow, he didn't know a whole lot about shooting a longbow so I helped him with the basics getting started. He felt he shot better instinctively so even though I'm a gap shooter I in no way shape or form wanted to encourage him not to continue shooting instinctive.

Last time I heard he was coming along nicely shooting instinctive. He's a heck of a good bowhunter, and I have no doubt he'll do well with his longbow shooting instinctively.

Another method to learn to shoot truly instinctive is to shoot at a laser dot in the dark. Good form is important no matter what method of aiming is used.

As I posted, I disagree with shooting at a single hard light in total darkness, low light perhaps. Remember the coon shoots? Three d shoots with the old D battery flashlights. Now everyone's flash light turns night into day and the affect is not the same. In my life time of shooting it seems that most often archers start looking at various different ways to shoot when they lose the ability to hit anchor. I do not call it panic. They simply need to hit anchor better, like I need to proof read what I type better, I have TP, TYPING PANIC, I think words but neglect to type them. I take secondary sighting/instinctive shooting to crazy depths of intent and purpose. I do not recommend doing that, it's crazy OCD stuff. Stump shooting and bunny hunting will tell most people what they need to work on. The old principles of consistency, draw and anchor apply to instinctive shooters as much as other methods. Hill wrote that he used his imaginary aiming point on every shot. It is a good method to teach someone that is just beginning, when shooting at longer yardages. However, I also believe that for Hill and many others that it becomes more automatic and instinctive over time. Instead of taking one hundred shots to find the mental picture of what a 50 yard shot looks like, to maybe 3 or 4 shots to 'know' what a 50 yard shot looks like. Very shortly that long shot will become 'automatic' and 'instinctive'.

If you are talking target, simply look at how all those who have won are shooting. Not many (if any) Instinctive. GAP is even not so common. String Walking is where it is at. If you want to win.

If you shoot purely instinctive, with no aiming point,how do you correct for a second shot or do you never miss? The quickest way to get kids to hit something so they won't get discouraged,is with a sight. If you have no idea of what you did wrong there can be no correction. It is not difficult. No holes in my bows. Tape works wonders. A match head or a plastic headed pin makes a great temporary sight. Then you can explain and they can see where to hold. It is very easy to remove when they get a handle on what they are doing. >>>----> Ken

If you want to win fast, you are right 3D Archery. Rick Welch won claiming he is instinctive shooter. But it took a couple of decades of training first.

I'm an instinctive shooter too. I've tried other methods, but found I'm better off sticking with what's worked for me all along. You won't know until you try other aiming methods, so give them a whirl and see what you think, then stick with what works best for you.

String walking versus a multipoint bow sight. The bow sight is a superior aiming method for target shooting. They both really suck when hunting rabbits with dogs or pheasant hunting.

dean, I agree with what you said about hitting anchor. But my experience is that the bow arm is at least as important, and maybe even more so,

Jim Ploen said a long time ago that follow through actually happens with the bow arm. Once the string leaves your fingers those fingers have no affect on consistent arrow flight. Your bow does though.

And I am a huge beleiver in that.

How can you have bow hand follow through as Jim says when for you the bow hand is not important? Unless you push the bow toward the target as some high level coatches are teaching, the rest will do follow through and talk about release.

Yes, it really helps to hold that sucker still until the arrow gets past it.

Buckwheat, do yourself a favor and if you don't already have it, get a copy of Byron Ferguson's excellent little book "Become the Arrow." It's extremely well done, concise and easy to follow. IMO it's where every traditional archer should start when it comes to learning to aim.

“Buckwheat, do yourself a favor and if you don't already have it, get a copy of Byron Ferguson's excellent little book ‘Become the Arrow.’" In case you don’t know this, Limbwalker has taken Archery all the way to the Olympics... it JMO, better yet...!start with Guitar Zero and The Talent Code; those books can teach you a lot about succeeding at ANYTHING.

“Instinctive” is a Crock. This is a LEARNED MOTOR SKILL. You can learn fast & sloppy or carefully and quickly. I recommend the latter; at least if you want to learn to hit your target. There’s no Magic to it; no Mysterious Gift that Some Have and Some Don’t. You just need a reliable way to make sure your arrow is pointed where you want it to go. Personally, anchoring with the nock on a plumb line below my eyeball works plenty well, with no additional apparatus required. If I anchor in the right place and float the point below the target, I have to do something pretty noticeably wrong to cause a miss.

Not that I don’t manage to screw up pretty regularly, but at least when I do miss, I usually know what I did wrong.

And in the interest of Full Disclosure....

On short shots, moving targets and the like, I can often just rip off a shot and hit what I’m looking at. Inside of “hunting range” - say out to about 20 yards - I never think about gaps, but I do mind the arrow when the shot allows. And on longer shots, I know I need more or less of a gap, but I don’t have to give it much thought until I’m at point-on or farther. But you won’t get there unless you’re willing to lose or bust up some arrows...

So I’m glad of the term “Gapstinctive”, aka “split vision”, if you’re a Hill fan; make sure you’ve got the windage dialed, and let the elevation take care of itself.

I am pretty sure the person Gene Wensel was talking about when he said the best hunting shot he knew taught himself to shoot, shooting at a laser dot in the dark was Paul Schafer. The same guy who hung with Noel Feather shooting out to 70 yards at an impromptu 3D tournament and won a $10 bet by hitting his $400 camera at 90 yards, right through the lens... Noel had a compound with all the bells and whistles.

Unless you really understand how guys like Schafer and Rick Welch get the arrow to the target.. you are just guessing. Jay Massey mentioned the technique in one of his books (The Bowyers Craft?) It is really remarkable once you get it... most don't.

I really don't know the difference between gap. And instinctive ? But last year I got my six year old daughter a real bow,,on her first shot ever with a bow,,,,,,she missed the 3D by ten feet! She laughed and said "daddy" that arrow didn't go where I wanted it to go" ,,,,,,,the next shot did,,,,,,proving ,,to me ,,,that that very first shot was instinctive ! ,,,,,,,,,but what do we call all shots after? JeffW

In the Byron Ferguson DVD "Become the Arrow", not only does he say he does, but Byron Ferguson demonstrates how he shoots, using ....... Split Vision!

Informed instinctive.

Even if you do go the instinctive route, it is a lot easier to become more accurate with shorter gaps, i;e by raising anchor, three under or fixed crawl, and longer arrows. Instinctive is based off of sight picture anyways, and a lot of people find that once they learn and practice their gaps, they can pretty much gap automatically or revert back to instinctive with more success than before. Try instinctive, but if it's not for you, don't be afraid to try other things. Who cares what others think?

I bought two copies of the Byron Become the arrow to hand out to people that I gave bows and arrows to, they are suppose to bring them back or hand them on to the next newbie. I should check around to see who has my Hitting 'Em Like Howard Hill dvds and my Byron dvds.

In the last book of Stephen Graf, in the chapter he describes the swing draw training with the help of Nate Steen he talks about hitting the target at 50m. If you shot any distance, you will be able to hit the target with training. How about stoping to judge the reality based on your own limitations?

I have no idea on how I shoot,,,, but the results are good,,,, I hunt close, and love it

LOL, KPC

I started my journey as a serious archer using traditional bows in 2013. I knew not of Leatherwall and it's many "experts", however I did know of some older guys near me who had shot stickbows long ago. They all assured me that I should just "stare a hole in my target, draw a blank in my mind and let my arrow fly. Once I had done this enough, they said, I would be able to hit the target instinctively.

As I became more involved in traditional archery, I started reading all I could online and stumbled upon this forum. People usually hear what they want to hear and seek out like minded folks who agree with their pre-conceived ideas and I was no different.

But, as I shot and shot and shot and read and read and read, I wasn't getting any better past 15 yards or so.

Then one fine day I started seeking out advice from folks who had proven they could hit what they aimed at out to 50 yards or more.....Most referenced the arrow point in some way or the other.

I began to admit I could see the arrow point in my peripheral vision, learned how to reference it, and I began to improve.

Haven't read the whole thread, but has anyone said that gap shooting doesn't work for bowhunting yet? That's always my favorite part. :)

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