Just watched old footage of one of Fred's African Safaris. Narrator said Mr. Bear killed his Bull Elephant with a 70# Kodiak recurve. Kind of makes the argument that 35 or 40 pound recurves not being enough bow for a 200 pound deer seem silly does it not?

Really? 4000 pound Elephant - 70# bow, 200 pound Deer - 35# to 40# bow is plenty. Use what works best for you, however, this is just to obvious to argue.

Food for thought anyway. 1/2 the bow weight but a deer probably wouldn't come close to one leg of the elephant in weight or thickness. 44 pounds has slayed a few beasts for me but I haven't been to Africa. >>>---->Ken

Right on Ken, just thought this was so interesting. A buddies Dad kept nine kids fed with venison in the 1960's - 1970's with a 35# Ben Person recurve bow. He killed 100 MI white tailed Deer with that bow, wood arrows and Sharpe two blade broadheads. Thing is, there was no internet to inform Him that what he was doing was near impossible.

1) I heard 75#. When I read it years ago it did impress me with the fact that (since many of us were shooting bows in that range) that archery gear was quite different from rifles, at least rifles with optimized for expansion bullets. You could have one bow and shoot anything with it, a blunt on a bunny, an easy penetrating broadhead on an elephant; [In Africa, this used to be the case with cartridges like the 7x57, or 303, with solids, and in experienced hands]

2) In the time Fred was there, and probably still today, there were tackers with the party of such a quality that they could follow antelope over rock. Now make that a 2 ton beast, maybe a blood trail losing the animal might be avoidable. Do you go into the bush with a pro hunter and native trackers?

3) I heard it took the Elephant 2 days to die. There are other similar stories from that period, to the extent that if in modern times an elephant is hunted with a bow The pro hunter has to shoot the elephant if it is still alive after 2 hours. 2 hours is a pretty healthy grace period;

4) It is not legal to bowhunt Elephant in all their huntable range. As far as I know, it is not legal to hunt them with a 75# Kodiak anywhere in their range. I don't agree with this, but in some African states hunting any animals with a stick is illegal, unless you get a special 10K permit;

5) Having returned from hunting elephant did Fred, a slightly built individual conclude that he should just cut his draw weight in half because of what he had see when he shot the elephant? From that point on only using 37# bows;

6) Despite what I said in 1), should one ever want to up the power game for some larger animal, it isn't all that easy to add 10 or 20 pounds. If you want to have all around, even NA gear, it will take work at some point;

7) Older archers are dropping weight to very low levels, but in some cases they have earned the right. The happy talk is teaching our football tackles and returned Navy Seals, that 40 pounds is the ticket, when they could easily handle more;

8) Why make an argument from analogy from elephant hunting, unless it were the case that nobody had as yet shot a deer with a bow, and we didn't know how it goes down. Arrows fail to penetrate deer all the time. And that has been the case since well before the average draw weight was dropped 20 pounds.

Overall we have devices that the best shooters are hard put to hit a deer sized target with at 20 yards, every time; in a situation where the deer can move before the arrow gets there; with a weapon that can't penetrate the target wherever it hits. Lighter weight bows solve one of those problems and aggravate another. Each hunter can make up their own mind about their effectiveness, but I prefer to be realistic, rather than believing in pixie dust.

1. Was 5

Fred normally shot 65# bows for hunting. He went to a 70# bow for the elephant because he was shooting special heavy arrows.

I was going on my first black bear hunt in if I remember right 1964. The normal bow weight I was shooting back then for hunting was 55#. I deciced that for bear I needed at least a 70# bow so I made the 2 hour drive to the Bear factoey in Grayling to get a heavy bow.

At that time there was a 48" round target in front of the factory where you could try out a bow. They gave me a left hand Kpdiak to try that was 70# and I shot several arrows out of it. I was shooting way left because the bow wasn't cut out very deep and had just a shallow shelf. They took the bow back in the shop to cut the shelf deeper and after a couple tries it shot down the line.

At the time that Fred went to Africa he took several bows in the 70# weight range. The bow that I got from the factory back then was probably one of the bows meant to go to Africa but was rejected for some reason. The other clue was Fred didn't like much of a shelf on his bows, probably because of the self bows he use to shoot.

I remember the articles that came out with Fred Bear. I remember the pod discussion back then with him posing with a lion with a pod on an arrow. I had a discussion with the President of Bear Archery after Fred Bear, he knew all about what was in them. As far the 35 to 40 pound bow for deer. My best hunting buddy, my wife, has shot numerous deer with 38 pound at 26" draw bows and cedar arrows, without losing any hit deer. All but one had two holes and that one had the entire arrow inside of the body with arrow stuck in the off side shoulder bone, it jumped the string and hit the deer in the right ham, skidded off the hip bone and stop buried half way up the Grizzly broadhead in the left shoulder bone. Not so long ago, I considered my light bow to be the 64 pounder, most of my bows have been 80 pounds and up. When it comes to shooting deer heavy bows are just more work.

Having started in 1956 I have to say I've seen a ton of Deer taken with 35#s & 40#s over the years (Stick bows). Most were by gals & younger teens. Regardless, they did the job. Personally I have taken Deer with 40, 45, 55#s. Elk with a 55# Black Bear 55#s Hog 55#s. Yes, my favorite weight was 55#s & 64" bows. I've been on Bear bowhunts & witnessed several kills with 45/50#s. My current Longbow is 50#s & would have no problem hunting Bear, Elk with it. If you put it in the right place, we all know 35#s will do the job.. I broke my hunting bow a couple days b/4 a weekend trip & I used my 70" 38# target bow to kill this forky at 15 yds. in 1972

That looks like a pretty good sized deer ahunter. Some bows are just faster than others, I had a 60# Hill longbow that could not shoot the same arrow any further than a 50# bear grizzly. I'm not sure how fast an arrow needs to be but 150 fps does not seem to have any problem going through deer. That's with using a 500 grain arrow.

Logic seems to be dismissed around here or claimed as Pixie dust. I killed a bear with one shot from a 44# Damon Howett. He was stone dead in less than 10 seconds. I knew it was quick but it was then timed on the video. The arrow entered just behind the left shoulder and exited just in front of the right shoulder. It continued for yards on the other side of the bear. However that was nothing. If memory serves,Larry Hatfield was working bear control for a timber company and killed hundreds with a bow weight in the 30's. Maybe he will chime in and verify or say this statement is Pixie Dust too. Many of you know him well enough to ask Unless you rather continue a senseless debate. A smooth flying arrow with a shaving sharp broadhead is Deadly. I believe Bomania also has put down big elk and moose with a rather light bow. I knew a part time Sports writer that was going bear hunting. He said he had to get a big magnum rifle first and recited horror stories. When I told him I had killed 2 he asked what I used. When I said a bow an arrow that was the end of his conversation. If you want to use 70 or 100 pounds more power to you. Please don't dismiss everyone else. End of rant. Have a good day. >>>---> Ken

I think we're looking at this backward. Most agree that a 35# bow is sufficient for a 200# deer. Using that logic, Fred was woefully underbowed. Given that an elephant weighs a couple ton, Fred should have been shooting a bow of at least 700# draw weight. :>)

BTW a elephant weighs in at about 5 tons not two.

In 1926, Stewart Edward White had 2 arrows in the chest of an African lion. His back up PH dispatched the lion with 3 shots from a.22 rifle. White was hunting with Pope and Young, at the time. bvd

Orion, I believe you are referring to me. If I may explain. I don't think I am looking at it backward. If I didn't misunderstand. Fred and the elephant were the standard. The question was about lower poundage bows not whether Fred was under bowed. You are right though by today's standards and laws. He was under bowed. Legitimate point though, worth discussing.Thanks.>>>---->Ken

I talked to a young fellow that shot elk with a 51@26 Schulz Legend. I am sure that there are elk killed every year by bows in the 40s, shooting a deer with a straight flying arrow with bows 35 to 40 pounds is not singular miracle as many heavy bow advocates would have us believe. No one would argue a 45 pound Hill for a deer but a faster recurve shooting the same weight arrow at 38 pounds? Impossible. A deer is a bag of water and soft bone adn the number on the side of a bow is just a number. For those that do not get good penetration on with heavier bows and heavier arrows and judging what others should use need to look at their own equipment, before judging those who are successful with lighter equipment. I will never forget what a land hog heavy bow and heavy arrow recurve shooter said to my wife one day a few years back, while a friendly compound shooter was pulling out her deer on my deer cart, "I don't pass throughs and neither do you." Sometime later, I saw him try to shoot and how bad his arrows flew, it was easy to see why he didn't get pass throughs. Oh yes, that friendly compound shooter now hunts with a 45 pound recurve and cedar arrows. It was his dad's Bear Kodiak, this year was the forth time he borrowed my deer cart, but this time was special, it was shot with his dad's recurve.

2Bears. I was just trying t make a joke. Difficult to see the tongue in cheek on the written page. Every time draw weight comes up, folks get their undies in a bundle on one side or the other of the issue. It's become rather boring. Just trying to add a little levity.

Well stated Deerhunt51, ahunter55, Dean, and KyPhil. No offence taken Orion. Like I said it was worth discussion. I did miss the joke though. Sorry. I can joke too. If you don't believe in tuning,bare shafting, getting your arrows to fly point on with no wobble and can't sharpen a good broad head shaving sharp,get a 100 pound bow it should still penetrate. :^) >>>----> ken

1: SCARY SHARP BROAD-HEAD! # 2: ARROW PLACEMENT! ARROW PLACEMENT! ARROW PLACEMENT! "NUFF SAID!

I believe it would be much, much easier to kill a deer with a 35# bow than an elephant with a 70#er

MedicineBow, I agree!!!

I do too. >>>----> Ken

If I remember correctly, he also used special oversized aluminum arrows, with solid fiberglass fishing arrows slid inside..

It is a known fact that Fred did do some Experimenting with the pod. It was something that he tried out. Patrick, no I wasn't in Africa. I doubt there is anyone on this site was there when Fred was. I don't believe Fred messed with the Pod long. Many of us forget that Fred was one of the Pioneers of bowhunting. and Back then everything was new. I'm sure those guys tried a lot of different things. Fred was confident that 70 pounds would be effective on Elephant or he wouldn't have used it. On a previous trip to Africa he shot completely through a fresh killed Elephant carcass with his 65 pound bow. As far as 35/40 pounds. I know an older fellow from Texas that has killed many deer and several hogs with a 38 pound recurve. I was with him when he killed two hogs on two different hunts. There are many things in a set up more critical then bow weight. Merry Christmas.....

How can it possibly be argued that a 70# bow was effective if the elephant took two days to die?

That's ghoulish - and we wonder what fuels anti-hunting sentiment....

Regarding whether or not 35-40# is enough for deer sized game, let's even say 30# for chuckles....would you let someone shoot a sharp broadhead at your chest from, say 15-20 yards with one of those weight? Think that would leave a mark? Most of us are way bigger around the middle than the deer we hunt. :o)

2 days? What sources say this?

I did use a "Little John" kids bow to kill bark peeler bear, of all sizes. But, you can almost throw an arrow through a bear by hand. Jack rabbits are harder to kill. These guys kill forest elephants also, and do use poison and light bows. They also run under the elephant and shoot it in the stomach. They also get maimaed and/or killed sometimes.

Bowlim, you said you "heard" that it took the elephant 2 days to die...where did you hear that? I never saw that anywhere. You can hear a lot of stuff. Just curious.

30+ years ago I hunted with a compound bow for 2 years until I decided I had always had more fun with a recurve and returned to the light side. ;).

I shot a squirrel once with that compound (Browning Excellerator, 70 pound pull using aluminum arrows and a field point). The arrow went through the squirrel right behind the short ribs until there were equal lengths of arrow sticking out both sides. The rest of the story with me trying to catch the squirrel and finish it off is kind of funny, but not important here. Point is, for what ever reason, the penetration stunk. Based on that, 70 lbs is not enough to squirrel hunt with I guess. On the other hand, I have killed deer with bows that were a whole lot less poundage. The draw weight is only one factor to consider.

Was it Fred's moose that took two days to track?

Im gonna do my own test and see what happens,,:)

Well it only travelled 600 yrds from where it was shot, if the official video is to be belived. It does not sound like it took 2 days to die...

Alex

ok I shot a buffalo with a wood bow 70# @ 25 inches,, yes i know thats not enough draw length,, anyway , it shot all the way through the buffalo,,it was just a plain osage bow, so not fast either,, so I am sure a 70# modern recurve is very powerful,,as would a 35# modern recure,, I am always amazed at how effecient the bow and arrow is,, much more than most realize,, I dont think an elephant hunt is in the cards for me,, but since I like to shoot deer,, no worries,,,

I don't know where people came up with Fred's Elephant taking two days to die. Much the same as the Video, if you have ever read of his elephant hunt he said he took a 40 yard shot. It was late in the evening and they tracked until dark. they didn't think it was a good idea to track such a large animal in the dark. He even stated that was the first blood trail he had ever quit on. The Trackers found the elephant dead the next morning. They said it looked as though the elephant had died not long after the shot and had traveled about 600 yards.

Anyone else notice how many arrows he had in his bow quiver?

David, I don't remember where I read that. I occasionally go to an African bowhunting site. Occasionally I defend some of these pioneers, because the stories over there are different than the ones we hear. I was on that site a week or so ago, but then I get searching all over the place and in my library to find answers which is why I put the comment in racognizably vague terms. I do think it is interesting that they put a time limit on it in some jurisdictions.

If it did take 2 days to kill, I wouldn't hold it against him. Though contrary published reports would seem to be deceitful, however, there were different standards around entertainment back then.

I just watched the film and they characterize it as "after what seemed like an eternity" or something similar. It seems to be cold when they get to the site of the death. And the shirt seems different, though the print I looked at was so bad it was really impossible to tell, and it doesn't mean much either way. With a herd of 300, it is amazing they found him at all.

"Logic seems to be dismissed around here or claimed as Pixie dust."

The loose thinking is to use Fred's elephant kill as an example of anything. We don't really know all the details, and what we do know is not consistent with modern accepted practices. If you want to halve the bow used for elephant you need 45 foot pounds. A 560 grain arrow at 190 fps.

If you want to make your own argument on the basis of what Larry Hatfield does, go ahead. While you are at it, point out where I crossed swords with his practices in my pixie dust post. Larry has a military background; almost unmatched experience in the archery game; the ability to make flight bows that have set multiple records; and is apparently an artist at culling black bears. It would be worth knowing whether Larry considers 30 pounds a median weight for black bear, or a minimum. Then we can all decide whether we want to use the bear minimum.

“I think killing a beautiful creature like an elephant has always been morally indefensible......”

Yeah, me too... that’s why in my deer hunting I only shoot the dumb ones with spindly, scrubby or otherwise malformed antlers.... I’ve never shot one of those “magnificent”, wise, old bucks in my life!

Just doing my part to make it a better planet for The Beautiful, since apparently Ugliness is a Morally Defensible reason to kill something.

Cripes! There are a lot of good reasons to protect Elephants, but Aesthetics doesn’t make the list.

“The arrow went through the squirrel right behind the short ribs until there were equal lengths of arrow sticking out both sides. The rest of the story with me trying to catch the squirrel and finish it off is kind of funny, but not important here. Point is, for what ever reason, the penetration stunk. ”

And that reason would be inertia. Squirrel hide is tough, and they don’t weigh much, so they start moving with the arrow and “catch” it. Like soft hands on a good wide receiver.

Either that, or #55 isn’t “enough” for blue grouse....

I can make clean kills with 15# on deer size animals, but I am, and have always been an "overkill" kind of guy, so I generally use 4 or more (generally more) times that.

You just never know when T-Rex is going to come around the corner, but I'm ready if he does. 8^)

Rick

Gross exaggerations and unsubstantiated claims not withstanding,BB's,Pods etc. The truth is 70 pound bows and magnum rifles are only necessary for Legends and Sports writers. Right here on the LW there are many many proven cases that it just an't so. Nothing wrong with using more power. Like Rick said being prepared for T-Rex is just plain cool. The problem is when they try to convince and discourage the young,the old,the women,that can't haul a 70+ pound bow to anchor,that they are somehow inferior or unethical to be hunting deer and bear. It is harmful to hunting as is, the days to die stuff. Come on guys we are all Brothers of the Bow. Take care and have a MERRY CHRISTMAS >>>---> Ken

Bowlim, by the time I was 8 years old I knew the track of every cow my father owned, also all our horses and dogs. Just a way of life and an every day thing to me. Almost every bark peeler I killed was sleeping or dozing when I shot them from a few feet away. If I see an animal, of any kind, and go cut it's track, I know that track for life. Helps a lot. I have never recommended a bow weight to anyone except the generic comment to check their States rules and they should work for deer and bear. Like I mentioned, I think, through experience that black bear are one of the easiest animals to kill with a bow, but I won't tell anybody to use X weight to kill one. Not my decision except for myself. When carrying a tag, I use a weight consistent with the rules for Washington State. For predatory bear, on private land I used the most convenient overall sized bow, (44") at a low weight because I brought out the hide, head, and meat. Those companies hired me because I demonstrated that I could track and kill only the bears doing the damage.

By the way, I don't care what Bear used to kill the elephant. He would be barred from using that today, I think, but do not really know. He did what he did, it was legal at the time, and the morality is between him and his God. He did do a lot for the expansion of Archery. that I can say for a fact.

Good stuff Larry..

Interesting ! Hummm !

He had a flair for writing but he talked like bow hunting was doomed in 1964. It is real close to 2018 over 1/2 century later and still going strong. Tune your rigs,get close,and shoot straight. We will be O.K. MERRY CHRISTMAS >>>----> Ken

Finally found the reference to the length of the moose tracking.

Anyone who read a Sands county Almanc by Aldo Luapold should have seen the interview of Fred Bear. His biggist regret was killing the Tiger. It was for business and he regretted that

so, by Fred's written word, we can deduce he didn't shoot animals any further than a self imposed limit of 15 yards, at broadside or slightly quartering away animal, with efoc arrows and single bevel broadheads.

Sounds like Fred shot at animals. Maybe his choice of shot timing or animal position wasn't the best, hence his wound rate.....and hence his thought process of needing the pod.

I wonder how the majority of trad archers today would fare in the percentages of wound/kill that Fred stated? I think the biggest difference we have today is a better teaching system of only taking the higher percentage shots and using equipment up to the task. I think hunting shot and blood trail follow up bowhunter education has done more for bowhunting than the pod would have.

Like it or not killing animals for money or entertainment demonstrates a lack of respect that serves to give Bowhunting a black eye in the view of the non hunting public. Killing exotic animals with marginal ethics, for self promotion or bragging rights takes it to another level. As hunters we tend to be selfrightious and myopic in viewing our activities. Step outside your comfort zone and ask some non hunters for their opinions.

Examples of what we now likely call poor ethics was prominent back in archery's history. Even with our heroes.

The Thompson brothers shot Ivory Billed woodpeckers (now extinct) for target practice. Howard Hill has on his record as killing a Hummingbird (as stated by Jerry Hill on tradgang) and several birds of prey (eagles, hawks, owls), and buzzards. Ben Pearson is shown in a video shooting a Catalina goat from what is stated as 80 yards and hitting it in its leg.

We should not cast stones at or precisely emulate these heroes, but rather learn from their past and live within our own ethics, which hopefully are higher than what we have seen or read when it comes to distances shot and personal skill level. Even then, woudndng game is still possible and most likely probable with each of us. You never know how the game will react between release and arrow arrival.

I do not own an archery company to promote, either.

The bow weight correlation is off the mark - the way you should look at this is, the diameter of the broadhead. Shooting an elephant with a Bear Razorhead is like poking a deer in the lungs with a toothpick with a 0.2" wide broadhead. I have to imagine an elephant has a lot of blood, and in order to kill it, you need to poke a big hole in the vitals to let it bleed-out in short order. The lungs on an elephant are probably much bigger than an entire mule deer. You are poking the same size hole in the deer as the elephant, but the elephant has an order of magnitude more blood that needs to exit the same-size hole.

Can a bow kill an elephant? Of course... but, in my unlearned opinion, it's something of a stunt. I saw a documentary on pygmies of Africa, they hunted forest elephants - they ran up to the side of the elephant, poked it with a poison spear, then tracked if for a few days until it died.

Bill Negley killed an elephant with a Zwickey head. I guess that's impossible too. Some of you geniuses need to look up the term ethnocentric, because that is how you represent yourself with comments about a time in which you likely weren't even around. A little left brain learnin would help a lot of you. Now we call it 20:20 hindsight. You folks are something else. By the way, the pod was tried many times and ultimately was not favored by the majority.

Wonder how much it cost, back in the time before Fair Chase ethics, to have a couple thousand pounds of Elephant meat shipped from Africa to the U.S.? Or mabye Bawana was just there to feed the Pigmy's.

Thanks Larry, interesting comments. I can't track an elephant through snow. My admiration grows with every realization of the life you have lived.

State minimum daw weight for Idaho is 40#. If that means anything to anybody. Draw length is not specified. Just weight. So according to the state you can ethically kill elk, mule deer and moose.

A while back there was a documentary of a film crew and a vet treating a wounded African elephant. The said elephant had been shot in the leg by a poacher's arrow. They removed the arrow head and several inches of the broken shaft. The patient came to quicker than expected. The wounded leg didn't slow it down any, the crew had to really hustle to get away from it. bvd

I feel the same as George, Some of these guys have no Idea what they are talking about. To bash a man that has done so much for our sport is, well all I can say is I can't believe what I've been reading here. Very disrespectful to say the least. And not any of the Elephant meat, was ever shipped back to the US. It was all given to the Native people. And that goes for any animal ever killed by an American hunter. The way it is going in South Africa now, it may be all over. The Whites are loosing there land and if there is no commercial hunting then most of the animals will be poached to the point of extinct. I was hoping to go before I get to old. Very sad time in South Africa.....

From Elkaddict87

"State minimum daw weight for Idaho is 40#. If that means anything to anybody. Draw length is not specified. Just weight. So according to the state you can ethically kill elk, mule deer and moose."

Legal does not necessarily mean ethical, and ethical does not necessarily mean legal.

40lbs might kill all those listed, but taking a 50 yard shot at a quartering towards you moose with 40lbs is not ethical in my book and maybe even a direct broadside shot. Shooting a wounded deer in a ditch that has been hit by a car whether in season or out of season is not legal in most places, but certainly would be ethical to end its suffering as quickly as possible.

I agree with you bud. It's up to us as archers to decide what shot is ethical. To each his own. A 30 yard shot might be unethical to you and not to me. Depends on the shooter and their ability.

And ethical doesn't mean it was right. I'm sure there were ethical slave owners at one point, who could have pointed out how their slaves never could have survived had they left them to their own devices in ancient Rome.

One thing I notice a lot is bad math, and wishful thinking. If you combine average shooting ability with sticks with all the variables working against us, it isn't easy to pick a way. But at least most of us are at a loss to run the numbers.

Hmmmm interesting thread,brothers of the bow.

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