How much value do you place on the diameter of the arrow shaft when it comes to penetration on game? I think it's needless to worry about it.

Its an amazing difference. Small shafts sail through deer. I've witnessed it firsthand many times.

Pretty much any aspect of this hobby can be needless to worry about. Like string noise, you can take the fur off and still kill deer. You can shoot 23/64 wood shafts and still kill deer, you can kill deer with 50" bows or 66" bows, recurves or long bows, leather grip or plain wood grips kill deer. Its all needless unless you want it to be needful.

More important is the hole in front of the shaft. )) I think it's logical that a smaller shaft would follow more easily. I don't worry about it though, it's much more of an issue in foam than in live game.

I shoot small diameter arrows. I think it helps, how much I don’t know but it makes me feel better shooting them. Lots of animals have been killed with larger diameter arrows. So shoot what ever you like but for me I will stay with small diameter since I get good pass through with them.

Wind drift can play a role if you're a guy that shoots beyond 12-15 yards at game.

Skinny shafts are faster, if that's stirs a guys Kool-Aid.

If you’re talking about large diameter arrows, then you can also assume that these arrows are being shot out of higher poundage bows. There probably is some difference in penetration, but it will be measured in the dirt beyond the target.

MP

I like shafts that fly well and tend to straighten out quickly. The right sized carbon shafts appear to do that best for my bows. The fact that they are skinny is not that important to me. I harvested two deer with the same skinny carbon arrow so far this year. On one, the arrow sailed right through the deer and stuck into the ground. On the other, I was only able to penetrate 1 side. The differential was due to bone contact as opposed to thickness of my arrow.

I have shot all my animals in the last 35 years, including multiple elk and hogs, with 11/32" or 23/64" wood shafts, and have gotten pass throughs on almost all of them.

A smaller shaft will reduce friction, but remember a living animal, unless you are going through bone, is a very low friction target. Foam broadhead targets are, by design, high friction targets, so the difference will be large there and small to negligible (in my experience) in an animal.

I like 1918 shafts, they have good weight, they fly straight and they fly through deer. So does 11/32 Surewoods. I would bet that skinny shafts penetrate better on different stuff like cardboard and gel. A deer is a bag of bones and water on a double lung hit, not a reliable medium for comparison.

Big broad head skinny shafts is the ticket

agree hole in front of shaft more important, Ive shot front to back on a big doe with a huge diameter 2512 with 74# compound back 24 yrs ago, arrow exited and was laying on round, like shooting a small cigar:)

“but it makes me feel better shooting them.”

As long as it breeds confidence and not arrogance, that’s reason enough, IMO. Just so you dont end up like the guys who think that any hit with a [insert brand] broadhead is a fatal hit.

“If it penetrates better in foam, it does in other stuff too, provided the surface is relatively the same.”

JMO, there is simply NO test medium that is “relatively the same” as the inside of a live critter. Not even a dead one, because inflated lungs are less dense than deflated, and - since blood acts as a lubricant - because Lastly more blood is spilled when blood pressure is not 0.

On the other hand, to the extent that there is friction it’s a pretty safe bet that a skinnier shaft with less surface area will be subject to less of it. So, yes, there probably is some kind of a difference, and whether it amounts to anything at all will most likely never be settled.

To the extent that skinny carbons may penetrate better than other kinds of arrows, that maybe so… Now, I would wager that the difference is more due to the fact that the arrows are made of carbon than the fact that they are skinny, But I suppose maybe that’s a different debate!

What is more certain to me is that if I want to shoot aluminum out of my longbows, I am going to have to go with an 18XX or 19XX Shaft in order to get the tune right. Maybe guys shooting skinny aluminum get better penetration because they’re the only ones shooting the correct spine in bows #50 and under??

I agree every small advantage adds up to have a larger positive effect,,

I have killed deer with 2413 and skinny carbons.I think the slight advantage goes to skinny for wind and penetration but all of my broadheads were bigger than the shaft????/ >>>---->Ken

I think Ken touched on an important point here--making sure the ferule of the broadhead is of larger diameter of the shaft. In my experience a smaller shaft WILL penetrate more than a larger one. Drag.

"I have killed deer with 2413 and skinny carbons.I think the slight advantage goes to skinny for wind and penetration but all of my broadheads were bigger than the shaft????/ >>>---- >Ken"

#50 selfbow, 23/64ths cedar shaft, dacron string, 7 yard shot.... blew through the deer like he wasn't even there. Probably more to the story than we know regarding the degree and ease of penetration.

agree, needless to worry about it, but I think it will help light bows with penetration...ron

I don't shoot skinny nor worry about it. But sure makes perfect sense the skinnys would pass through easier.

Might sound funny but I don't like the feel of the skinny arrows when handling them. Maybe just my brain likes what I am use to for so many years with wood being my favorite.

All arrows are good. Some pass though the deer and some only pass through the heart. :)

OK - gotcha now!

the diameter of the ferrule of the broadhead is as important as the diameter of the shaft.

If a 23/64" arrows has a braoadhead that has a 32/64" ferrule, it cuts makes a hole 23/64 of an inch.

Same as a 9/32" carbon with a broadhead that has a 9/32" ferrule, cuts a 9/32" hole.

If you want to improve that somewaht, shoot 23/64" heads on 11/32" arrows. or 11/32" heads on 5/16" arrows.

These are 160gr STOS 2-Blade Glue-on Broadheads mounted on 140gr Adapters I lathe turned from 250gr field points making 300gr 11/32" BH's screwed on 5/16ths" Standard diameter CF shafting which gives the same effect as any configuration where the Broadhead is punching a hole larger than the shaft.

As a note?...I have a mental hang-up about shooting micro-diameter shafting "Off-The-Shelf" as I feel (and sense and seen) that having those fletching bases so close together?...can result in the arrow NOT coming off that shelf so cleanly where one feather base is nearly touching the next and hammering off the shelf/wall.

It's probably worth considering that the surface area of a 28inch 11/32 shaft is approximately 10% larger than a 28inch 5/16 diameter shaft .... that 10% more interface contact drag

All I'm concerned with is a well tuned arrow ,large or small. I split most hair with 1916's. If small diameter arrows are ever proven to have, let's say, 25% better penetration, perhaps I would consider them.

Phil that makes sense, except that if your shooting something like a Snuffer the arrow's not going to touch the hole. Or at lease touch it less than a two blade.

If your broadheads aren't impacting in the same spot as the field point a telephone pole will penetrate better.

Bowmania

In the "end all be all" of it, it's not something to be overly concerned with, BUT yes the smaller diameter the shaft is, the less resistance it will have, therefore the better it will penetrate.

I am loving the micro diameter thick wall shafts. They are some tough little boogers. Toughest I have ever shot. OH, and - they penetrate nice also. 8^)

Rick

I have been shooting 400 and 500 Axis / Some are called N- carbon. I have some that are over 20 years old, a little cautious with them. I put two wraps on the back half, in line with each other and 125 gr on the front. 435 gr. Total arrow wt. Bow info is 35# to 43# I do like the 35# better, you don't need a canon to kill an ant ! But I also have the discipline of nothing more than 20 yards, I just thrive on close encounters. Even when I don't get shot.

No problem with week shaft, no problem with penetration. And I don't have feathers touching each other. Actually the ends of the feather are a quarter inch apart.

I've been shooting that same setup for 28 years.

DS

Totally disagree with better penetration skinny shafts. Larger diameter I believe behind a sharp head I feel will drive trough and have force behind it where smaller diameter might deflect.

There's no real tests other than the amount of things you have arrowed. I don't have any preference either way and have both wood and aluminium and carbon usually in my hunting quivers with various heads on them and not afraid to shoot any one of them at anything I want to kill.

Some say they would never do that welp what I do works for me and that's all that matters for me.LOL

One thing I do do is I wax the shafts that helps with residence. As long as my head is sharp is all that matters it opens the hole so the running back can pass through it meaning the fethers.

Keep it simple stupid. Ever hear that. That's true if you keep your shots 20 and under and the closer the better I feel.

Wax the shafts? What are you shooting thru wood!!

good arrow flight, sharp broadhead, arrow weight, velocity, good shot placement =good penetration

Jinkster that is a deadly looking setup. I believe deflection would be controlled by spine/stiffness not size. I started waxing arrows many years ago,for a different reason. Continued it for several. Originally for slickness and quietness over a Springy arrow rest and to keep broadhead edges from rusting/dulling. It also seemed to aid penetration and makes them easier to pull from 3D targets.It can't hurt. >>>----> Ken

Waxing shafts. Not a bad idea. My two favorite hunting bows have no leather side plate, when I draw it is wood on wood. I was my arrows with Turtle wax paste. It makes them ride smoother and quieter when being drawn. I cannot say how much that makes a difference on deer, so far nothing but pass throughs with 1/32 wood arrows and narrow 3 to 1 broadheads. In the past many years I have seen and helped search for a number of bad penetration hits for other people. In one case the carbon arrows turned out to fly so bad that it could be blame ona crooked in the air flight, his flew when he stretched to absolute maximum draw, but failed to do that when actually trying to hit something. The other cases was cheap mechanical Walmart broadheads put on cheap Walmart carbon arrows, that either didn't work or hit the deer at angles that made the malfunction. In those cases the skinny carbon did not help at all as far as I could tell. A lot guys around here do it, but Walmart is not the place to get completed hunting arrows for anyone.

Means everything in foam because of more surface area for foam to grab with larger diameter. Means everything in a scapula, again friction only this time with more of a squeezing effect. Mean nothing in flesh unless you have a very small broadhead.

I use old Hunter's Heads and Hills, some of the Hunter's Heads are barely and inch wide on 11/32 cedars. I have never lost a hit deer with those and I have always gotten pass throughs even when the arrow centered a rib. Two years back I shot a buck, a long shot, with a virtually worn out Hill, Mussato style edge. The arrow went through the entry rib with blade horizontal and did not break the rib, slashed the heart and cut a rib in half on the exit, the arrow came out wobbly and snapped the feather end off, swiping an oak sapling. Deer are simply not that much of a challenge for a broad head arrow that is flying straight.

Agree with GLF

Arrows don't kill game. Broadheads do. Think about that. The arrow is just a delivery system. Shoot straight.

The longer this goes on, the more it sounds like single-bevel or high FOC; all else bring equal - GPP, tune, sharpness, etc.....

A skinnier arrow may not make a huge difference, but it can’t hurt anything. So if you’re shooting lighter poundage and it helps your confidence...

I used to spray some type of graphite silicone on my arrows - aluminum. Made them grey, but sure came out of target easier.

Here's something to consider in the thick vs thin debate for gappers. If you were a carpenter and had to cut a line, you could cut a more exact line from a drafting pencil than from a felt tip marker. I'd think you can gap better with a micro diameter arrow than a 23/64ths wood arrow. Might not make much diff at 20, but 35-40 I think a lot.

Bowmania

Way too much overthinking.

“I'd think you can gap better with a micro diameter arrow than a 23/64ths wood arrow. Might not make much diff at 20, but 35-40 I think a lot.”

Depends what color your arrow is and how much light you’ve got..

Ever try a 1" white dip just behind the point with a lengthwise black line on top, perpendicular to the nock slot? Just asking,but if you like front sights??? >>>----> Ken

Shaft diameter was *one* factor in the Ashby tests. Broadhead shape, bevel and sharpness were other factors.

Skinny shaft won't make up for dull, poorly designed heads. Or lack of arrow mass. Or...

Unless you're shooting big, tough-skinned critters I wouldn't sweat it. 5/16 diameter shafts are common and fly well enough. On big buggers I'd consider a 5mm FMJ.

Actually....

I really like being able to aim off of one blade of the broadhead.... Not many of my arrows line up just right for that, but on the few that do...

Shot from the same bow, at the same draw length, and given similar weight, same head, same shaft length, and perfect flight, a skinny carbon will outpenetrate a 23/64ths wood arrow. Carbons are naturally stiff, the stiffness is permananetly 'baked' into them during manufacture. In flight the flex damps out in comparison to wood. They are also inert. Wood arrows are very flexible in comparison, dependent on species.

Getting all those factors to come together takes more than your typical stick archer -me- has the slightest interest in doing. But thems the facts based on an understanding of physics.

Actually carbon arrows are no "stiffer" than comparably spined wooden, aluminum, or fiberglass arrows. Hence the same static spine measurement.

What carbon arrows do (and it's the same with carbon fishing rods or anything else) is recover from the initial bend of the force of the bowstring being released faster than wood, aluminum, etc.. Again, just like in a fishing rod.

An example would be using an old Orvis Wes Jordan cane rod, a more modern Orvis Goden Eagle glass rod, and a newer high carbon content rod. Each rod recovers and reacts to the movement of the flyline differently and at differnt speeds. It takes the cane rod longer to straighten you back and forward cast than it does the glass rod. And it takes the glass rod longer to straighten you back and forward cast than it does the carbon rod. Your castin motion will be quicker for a given length of cast with the carbon rod than it will be with either of the others.

And for the same reason that you can "overloadd" a carbon fly rod with a line weight that is 1 or 2 sizes heavier (it's simple to to cast a 9 or 10 weight line on most 8wt. carbon rods), you can do the same thing with carbon arrows, (overlaod them with weight) for exactly the same reasons.

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