Sooo.....I have been around the leatherwall for quite a while. :o) It seems like to me that there are more good bucks being posted this year. Not wishing to start a debate on horns vs. meat but just an observation that I am wondering whether others who have been on here can confirm or rebut. I know in Missouri, the antler restriction that was put in place several years ago is really coming to fruition and we are seeing more bucks in the field....and nice ones at that. I know other states have instituted such rules as well. I am wondering whether this is coming into play or whether if it relates to the picture topic in that there were bucks taken in previous years but we as a pic driven society are just taking more and sharing more. Maybe a little of both? Another possibility too is that we are having more people from the compound world (hunting trophy mode) making the jump to traditional.....and maybe it's now just a numbers thing. Thoughts? Regards

We have Antler rules in Pa. where I hunt it's three on top. I've got some mixed feelings about letting big deer go with a nice rack. We have some nice four, five, and six points mature bucks we got to let go. One thing Pa. Did was to reduce the deer herd by killing off a lot of does leaving less deer but with more food the deer got a lot bigger in the mountains. We used to see fifty or more deer in one day in the mountains now your lucky to see ten on the first day. I think reducing the herd really helped.

The last couple years I've seen a lot of small bucks but have also seen two of the biggest bucks I've ever seen. One was a huge 14 point that I saw last year in archery season my neighbor shot and I missed a huge buck this year in archery season. Both of those were what I would consider a lifetime trophy. I see less deer but have seen some nice bucks. I never saw a deer last year in gun season.

Yep, less deer in Pa. My buddy hunted 13 times on his vacation week before last, and never saw a single deer.

On this site it goes in spurts. Some years there are a bunch of bigger bucks posted, and some years you'd wonder if the season ever opened.

Will. If you have a three point on one side antler restriction, why would you have to let a six point pass?

I never seen so many small bucks ever than this year. Usually its opposite but this year both in Pa. and NJ for me. Turned down over 20 so far just not wanting to kill them.

I'm going by cameras as well also as well as live at stands that could have shot or had shooting at. Don't get me wrong I have seen some big ones just not been able to arrow one yet but for the most part a lot of babies.

6 and 7's walk and small 8's and even discussed leaving the small 10 walk off also. I just figure might as well shoot a doe if ya wanted meat. After 4 does I don't need meat unless someone needs a deer I know.

Could it be guys are tired of showing off also. I am!!!!!!!

If you check with the PGC website, you will see photos of bucks take over the years. Antler restrictions has helped the bucks get older....and subsequently bigger, both in size and antler growth.

Will lives in an are of 3 up. So a deer can be a six point and not be a 3 up...which means you don't count the brow tine. That only applies in certain areas of Pa....most of us in the central area have a 3 to one side rule where you can count the brow tine. It is working. As for not seeing fifty deer a day in the mountains, the habitat can't support it. For years guys complained about not seeing deer in the big woods, but if you really want there and looked, you saw a browse line to high to reach, and a canopy that kept new growth out. Works for squirrels okay.

"went there" not want there....fast fingers and slow brain.

The PGC is working to better the habitat in many of the north ranges by using those infamous exclusion fences now to change the growth cycle to enhance more suitable food for deer. On Rt.44 you see a lot of that transition.

I'm a PA taxidermist. There's no doubt our bucks are bigger than years ago. Last year was amazing for size and numbers. This year average for both.

A lot has to do with hunter participation. By our game commission estimates, we have 550,000 deer hunters where we used to have over a million. This has a lot to do with our bucks getting age on them.

We have way less deer which is why we have way less hunters. I for one don't have near the interest in bowhunting like I used to. I hunted 14 mornings this season and saw 4 doe and 4 buck. I was more than happy to see it end. It didn't used to be that way for me.

One last thing. I read a retired deer biologist once writing on antler restrictions. He's said 5 years of antler restrictions will cost you 30 in genetics. He said dog breeders don't breed their runts. He said that's what you have with antler restrictions. Jim

Only believe some bucks are bigger in restriction areas. In the county's they are same deer get hit by cars as before. Some are getting really big in the housing developments.

As I seen a lot of deer this year and they have been small both Pa. and NJ. for the most part. Now the chase has brought out bigger bucks that would normally be nocturnal.

A lot of odd racks this year too seen. I don't think you can go by whats being brought to shops or shown in pictures you really need to be out in the bush live to see really whats going on in your neck of the woods today!

Besides what do some of you consider a big buck? I say anything over 18 inchs and good points over 4 to 5 inch is starting to be a good deer.

We all have variables and that's why so much fake news is out there.

Not referring to any that are going down hill either only up and coming trophy status bucks.

Ryman Cat, some of us live in the woods....out here in the "bush". Not sure where you are hunting, but suspect in the far eastern area of Pa. Around here the bucks have improved significantly both in size and antler growth. I've been hunting this region since 1962 so I know a bit about it. It wasn't meant for more deer, or more bucks...it was meant for healthier deer getting further into maturity. I was around here hunting when we were seeing those fifty deer per night, and it was odd to see the size bucks we see now. Yes there were more of them, but they were not the level of those today, both in size and relative health.

Wow...I guess I am understanding why PA is the archery mecca of the U.S. and has all the BIG bow festivals and what not. :o) Any other states care to comment? Regards

Arkansas has had 3 point rule for 22 or so years. It is helped our bucks grow so much that It is hard to find someone in Arkansas that is against antler restrictions anymore. We see more big bucks taken than we ever have and we see more deer overall as well most years. This year has been exceptional in the area of the state I hunt.

“I read a retired deer biologist once writing on antler restrictions. He's said 5 years of antler restrictions will cost you 30 in genetics. He said dog breeders don't breed their runts. He said that's what you have with antler restrictions. ”

I guess I should really say “Hmmmm, I’d sure like to see the data on that” but what comes to mind is more along the lines of “What a load of CRAP!!!”

If you kill off 85%-90% of the bucks at age 1.5, all of the breeding vets done by whatever bucks are left standing. If a good number of bucks live to be 2.5 or 3.5 or older, then there are enough of them around to duke it out and decide who’s going to be doing the bulk of the breeding based on the pecking order (if you’ll forgive the cross-species mixing in my manner of speaking!).

True, it’s unfortunate that the “better” 1.5s are still subject to being cropped off, it I’d guess that quite a few get a pass when it’s not clear whether they’ll make the minimum....

And FWIW, it would be a huge mistake to manage a statewide deer herd for B&C scores, rather than for a balanced sex ratio and age structure within a population that the landscape can sustain.

We have APR and sooo many guys say they hate it. But I like. Yes, I see better bucks these day. Michigan has always had a problem with guys who don't want to play by the rules, mostly in the rural northern part of the state and UP so a lot of venison is still killed "out back", dragged to the pole barn and in the freezer before day light. APR applies to those who follow the rules only.

Does Mississippi still have APR? I believe they were the first to use them. I thought they did away with them. Any Mississippi guys reading this? Chime in.

I don't have a problem with them myself. I just feel our game commission went to far with the doe eradication program. No doubt we had to many at one time. I just feel they went to far the other way. If you have access to private ground in our state, you still have good hunting. If you hunt public.... pretty tough. Jim

Jim Keller, in my opinion, which may be only useful to me, is that the PGC should have stayed with the county directive versus going to the larger WMA permit status. The WMA's, in most cases are too large to be dealt with as a whole in antlerless management. The county position, which we had before that, was easier to control since it wasn't so massive. I personally would like them to go back to that setup versua WMA.

I LOVE the antler restrictions instituted by the PGC here in Pa. I DESPISE the wholesale slaughter of doe instituted by the PGC here in Pa and carried out by hunters with no foresight.

PGC doe slaughter you think that bad NJ has unlimited and in some areas you can call in 2 at a time. Still can't get a handle on it.LOL

Its all BS I feel based on 65 years experience or 60 years anyways from what I see in the bush.

I understand the areas of restrictions what that's done for the state but whats it done to bring does back? I think most of what I hear from guys not seeing deer is no one is in the bush pushing them so unless you have others in the bush many areas are just to vast in Pa. Schools still out after Thanksgiving gun boys will have a lot to say good and bad I suspect.

The little bucks are doing a lot of breeding in the eastern parts and that's whats screwing up the gene pool. How I know this is by horn configurations I am seeing from various bucks I have on camera.

We had some blue tongue in NJ and it sure seemed 50% less deer that year then 2 years later they came back double.

I still say aliens took our deer. LOL

Don't think there really is any good ways to manage to make others happy no matter whats done.

I need 2 or 3 does shot at my house but no Pa. doe permit so they will have to get hit by a car.LOL

If you don't get your Pa. permit early then you more than likely not going to get it. Who's getting them all. I'll give you one guess it aint hunters I don't think.

If you spend as much time in the bush as you say then George shouldn't you be shooting deer or you just aren't shooting unless ya have help with the drag.LOL

APR has dramatically improved buck survival and size in the area I hunt in Michigan. I believe more does are surviving also because hunters have more opportunities to take bucks.

George I agree 100% on the county thing. I live in Dauphin Co. the southern half of the county is farm and developments. Lots of deer. The northern half has lots of gamelands. Only the private land is good. That's within my county. The wmu is made up of 3 or 4 counties. To big to manage properly.

George, I agree with you on the counties vs. wmu's, and have said that since they made that change.

Not that it's irreparable, but they beat the herd up pretty bad in areas where it wasn't necessary... it's easier and probably cheaper not to micromanage.

This year some deer were killed here by EHD, within at least an hour's drive south, east, and west of us too.

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