I have the opertunity to take down this tree for future bow stave. I have a guess what it may be ...but don't want to make an "ash" out of myself and waste my time and the tree if I'm wrong. Help please (northeast Pa)

Looks like a cucumber magnolia. I’d have to walk out back to compare to one of the ones in my yard. How big are the leaves? Mike

mockernut hickory me thinks

Fishin, that trunk is about 8" across and l leaves are 3" x 1 1/2

The bark looks like a persimmon tree but I don't know if they grow as far north as north east Pa. BobG.

Not Ash for sure!

No for an ash. It's possibly a persimmon, but the bark doesn't look "alligator-like" enough for a persimmon. My wife is strongly suggesting a black gum (Nyssa sylvatica) because of the angle the terminal leaves. Do other branches have terminal leaves (not leaflets) with maybe 5 leaves instead of just 2?

SOURWOOD OR BASSWOOD?

As for the Black Gum idea, I have a planted one in my yard. My tree is about 4 inches in diameter, bark still smooth and yes they become furrowed with age. At 8 inches and furrowed like that doesn't convince me. I've got a gazillion persimmon trees, my first vote. I'll try to verify after this rain.

If it is a persimmon, and they are native to Pa. now is the time it would be bearing fruit that would become edible right after the first frost. TLM

Thanks for helping out here.

No fruit or nuts are on the them, most of the leaves are groups of 3s very few 5s and my neighbor cut one down for firewood and it was very hard wood.

Persimmon will make a good bow. Build it with typical whitewood dimensions.

I think it is Black Gum.

I don't know about over there Tom, but there aren't many persimmon or black gum trees on this side of Pa. My guess is for mockernut or pignut hickory. Any nuts around? Any others like it nearby? An 8" hickory tree may or may not be ready to produce nuts. I'd like to see pictures of an outer branch with ALL of its leaves still on it. How they're arranged can help with the i.d.

Looks like black gum to me. Definitely not persimmon, hickory or ash. I don't know about the wood properties, but if it's like sweetgum, it would be considered a "soft hardwood", and probably not suitable for bows. Sweetgum grain is very twisted; not sure about the grain in black gum.

Forgot to add, but Hickory, pecan and ash have compound leaves.

Well we are still confused and I understand not wanting to waste time on an inferior wood. More leave pictures and perhaps one of the whole tree might help. >>>----> Ken

The bark has a sassafras look, but the leaves don't.

I went through the identification process on the Arborday site and it determined it was either a Black Gum or Persimmon, but I was making a few assumptions from what I saw, or didn't, in the picture you posted.

To me, the leaves seem to be simple rather than compound because they appear to be attached to a branch rather than a rachis, or compound leaf stem. This would also eliminate both hickory and ash since they have compound leaves.

The reason I'm leaning toward Black Gum rather than Persimmon is because of the bark pattern, the shape of the leaves, and the branch appears to have a terminal bud at it's end, which persimmons don't have.

https://www.arborday.org/trees/whattree/

http://www.ncwildflower.org/plant_galleries/details/nyssa-sylvatica

http://treebarkid.com/index.php/blackgum

"If you think you are looking at a Blackgum, stand at the base of the tree and look up. The branches should be coming out perpendicular from the main trunk of the tree. They should also form a "pinwheel" pattern, with the branches coming out of every side of the trunk.

The bark is thick and blocky, and often resembling an alligator skin on older trees.

Persimmon bark is the closest to this species. The square plates of Blackgum tend to line up more vertically than with persimmon."

No fruits, nuts or berries.

Most leaves are off.

It's hard to get a good photo cause it all tangled with some maples.

Yes Jeff it does seem to have that "pinwheel " pattern.

Are Black Gums very hard? Neighbor said very very hard to split.

Thanks so much for the interest.

Well I looked at the trees in my yard and I’m gonna say it’s not a cucumber magnolia because the leaves are to small. Even on my saplings the leaves are 5- 9”. I looked at the black gum in my front yard and it didn’t look right either although it’s only 6” in diameter . As stated a picture of the entire tree would help the identification process.

I searched in my manual (Dirr) leaves are spot on the description of leaf although very similar to Persimmon. The bark matches the description as well. What puzzles me is the furrowed bark on a 8" diameter tree .Maybe it is growing amidst a lot of other trees. Mine is about 4 inches and still pretty smooth. I'm going with Black Gum.

Your local Leatherwall foresters say it is a Black Gum. For confirmation on that, the limbs on a black gum tend to grow nearly at a 90degree angle to the tree. If it's not a gum, it's a sassafras. Sassafras has leaves like that too. Bark as well. If it's a sassafras, you'll smell it when you peel a bit of the bark back. But, I'm certain it is a gum. Tell us about the limb orientation to the trunk. God Bless

Looks like what we call "sour gum" or "Tupelo" in Rhode Island

Looks like black gum but I wouldn't rule out persimmon until I looked at the tree in person or a photo of the tree. I learned a long time ago not to bet a streak dinner on photos. :) Rub the top of a leaf and see if it is smooth and shiny. If it has a light fuzzy feeling it would be persimmon, smooth black gum. Tupelo is one of the first trees to turn in late summer, a pretty red color. Black gum is a bear to split. I doubt you will split it with an ax or maul. I once won $25 off an ex-stepson who was a weight lifter. I had a green block I was using to split fat-lighter pine with an ax. Bet him he couldn't split it in 10 minutes with the ax. After hitting it a mighty swing, he was still attempting to get the ax back from the wood at the 10 minute mark.

Black gum or Tupelo gum is quite easy to ID and it shouldn't be a problem telling the difference between it and persimmon. They don't resemble each other in person.

Persimmon bark, 6" tree.

Persimmon leaves.

Three and a half persimmon trees[the dark ones] taken from one of my stands. I missed a 10 yd slam duck on an old doe here Friday evening. Made the mistake of glancing at the limb covering her spine just before dropping the sting and hit right where I was looking. You can see the Flo. yellow fletching if you look close in a limb of the tree on the right.

I enjoy this site for folks sharing their knowledge and willingness to help.

I am out out town and can't take more pictures right now.

Will have to get ladder out as trunk is very straight and branches don't start until the 9ish ft mark.

Leaves were smooth not fuzzy.

Sounds like Gum is winning; is that good for bow stave?

I have a stave here somewhere I got many years ago. I can't remember it's exact name, though I believe I was told it was some type of Gum tree. It is white-ish, but the grain interlocks like nothing I've ever seen. Black gum maybe? It seems light in weight for its size.

Liquid Amber: I'm still laughing about the ten minutes to get the axe back from the tree! I know a guy once stranded three chainsaws in the same tree and was looking around for a forth! Not naming any names.

Black gum or tupelo gum is light weight and the wood a favorite of wood carvers for a variety of applications. Classic bread dough bowls are traditionally carved from this wood.

I'm thinking Persimmon. Note the single "tooth" on one leaf and not the other. The gum leaves are all smooth. No fruit may mean a male tree. My father in law had a tree exactly like the one in the pic. Never had any fruit, but he always said it was a Persimmon. I think he had another that had fruit, but it died.

Black gum bark taken at the same distance I took the persimmon bark.

Black gum leaves.

The photos of persimmon and black gum I posted are from trees in my yard.

There is one distinguishing feature of the persimmon bark I posted that the black gum bark I posted and the bark McCool posted lack. If you look at the persimmon bark I posted, you will notice an orange color in the bottom of the grooves. It is lacking in McCool's bark photo and the black gum bark photo I posted and is a characteristic of persimmon bark.

Bark says black gum.

The surface of persimmon leaves feel sort of leathery and slightly fuzzy like swede leather.

Black gum leaves are smooth and shiny on top. Black gum leaves have considerable more variety in leaves, while persimmon leaves are more consistent in form.

McCool said his leaves were smooth.

Leaf says black gum.

I'd say the tree McCool posted is more than likely black gum.

I would say we can eliminate persimmon. That leaves black gum and the ashes for me. I think McCool knows what the tree is anyway.

The Tupelo will have a very large base like a cypress. In fact they like the wet ground also

Cliff, the reason I turned from ashes, hickories, or anything with a compound leaf is all of the buds and/or scales, and apparent bark on the branch to which the leaves are attached. If instead it were a compound leaf, missing some leaflets, that branch/stem would be more the color of the visible leaf stems, and missing all the above.

Stopped by the persimmons today when leaving my stand (only one tree has a dozen in it so they did not produce much this year) and snapped a pic for ya's. We call em' gator trees-lol

pic above with bow to show size, this pic is closer.

and this is a pic standing at base and shooting up.

Great shot with the lighting showing a couple of the orange streaks in the grooves.

I came out to our country place this morning to work on the pond and took 6 inch close ups of a green ash and the dogwood next to it.

Green ash.

Dogwood.

Just using bark photos taken at close range makes them all look more alike than they are. The only one that can be identified normally is persimmon because of the orange coloring in the bark grooves. I could walk up the hill into our woods and find a hophornbeam and take a closeup of it and toss it in as well. :)

If one was to walk by each of the species here attached to these photos, "all" are easily identified by the bark pattern. Ash is "easily" identified by simply looking at the limbs for opposite branching.

With all the bark photos we have of "known" species, the green ash most resembles the bark at the beginning of this thread. The ridges appear to be longer than the others which, which indicates less blockiness when viewed from a distance.

I cannot hunt this evening and tomorrow as our youngest granddaughter is coming in, so I'm going to grab my 2wt and walk down to the pond and catch a couple of these before heading back to town :)

I'm just going to wait for McCool to tell what it is.

My first instinct was persimmon.

Species also vary in looks based on region. As Amber said, it is really hard to be exactly right based on photo's of just the bark. Heck, I was cruising timber Monday and, I called a tree a white oak from the center of the plot. When I looked up to get the height, I noticed it was no white oak but, a RED MAPLE. When I went to D-tape it I realized that had a I not had to get heights, that tree would have forever been a white oak in the cruise. As the bark was identical to white oak. That is twice in 20 years I have done that with Red Maple and White Oak. So, in all cases some species can fool you if you don't take everything into account to determine what it is.

Back to the OP, tell us about the limb orientation on that tree. That will end the speculation. God Bless

On my way home tonight from being out of town. At the rest stop 2 hours out...more photos in the morning...not ignoreing anyone!! LOL!

If it's a black gum, and I suspect it is, the leaves should be bright red right now.

Important distinction, because the persimmon will make a decent bow, I doubt the gum or tupelo would. I have a persimmon in my side yard ditch and it does resemble that bark pattern. Don't have a tupelo handy to compare. Old-timers favored black gum (tupelo) for making toothbrushes. Chew on the end of a small twig to fray it then use it for a toothbrush.

"Persimmon wood is used for golf club heads.its a tuff wood. "

Well make that WAS used for golf club heads 40 some years ago.

The heads made a satisfying "crack" when hit on the screws (another old golf term not heard much anymore). My first set of Wilson woods from the 60s were persimmons.

THAT's a handsome bluegill.

I don't know crap about the tree id but that is a niiice bluegill. That scrappy mother would put a HUGE bend in my 2 weight glass twinkie stick.

Leafs went from green to some yellow, some reddish and other a mix of both.

Another

Hard to get good pictures of the top

If you look, the leaves are not identical and have different shapes. The leaf with yellow and red looks like Sassafras or possibly Dogwood. DANNY

I still say sourwood.

Both leave off the same tree; I plucked them for pictures. The OP picture leaves are connected and look a little different too.

This is the longest self bow thread ever, and its still on the stump!

OK, my 2 bits:

First, I am gonna assume that the leaves in the first picture really are the leaves of the tree ...

Second, then you can throw out all trees with compound leaves, multiple leaflets on one longer stem. You can tell based on where the swell of the leaf joins the stem. So it is not any ash, hickory, pecan, walnut, etc.

Third, several folks advocating for persimmon or blackgum reference fruit. Both of these trees have males and female trees, but only the females have fruit. So this may not be much help if we are dealing with a male tree.

Fourth, in the first picture, the leaf on the left has a smooth or entire margin with no teeth (like elm and hickory) or lobes (like many oaks, maples, and sweetgum). Yet the leaf on the right seems to have some small lobes, but I can't tell if it has any teeth. So, the tree appears to have two slightly different types of leaves, which may point to blackgum. I'd still like to know if it has any teeth ...

Fifth, like someone else said, bark can be deceiving, and for me, a forester in TN, blackgum can look more like other species more often than any other that I cruise. In other words, it can be one confusing species...

Too make it even more confusing, Tom's last picture of the leaf with his bow tip does not appear to be the same species as the firs two leaves that he posted. If you look at the margins of this leaf, it is toothed or serrated, like a beech or elm, with very obvious veins that are quite a bit narrower than the veins on the first leaves posted. I do not think this leaf came from the tree pictured, IMO.

Last, I do not think that it is sourwood, basswood, or sassafras, based on both bark and leaves. I think any good tree book will bear this out...

At first glace, I said persimmon, which is a good bow wood, and I have some in the attic. This fits your neighbor's "very hard wood." However, I too am leaning towards blackgum based on the additional info and pics, and this is a poor bow wood. Blackgum tends to have soft wood, like sweetgum, poplar, and red maple. It also often has spiraled grain, and was once used as wagon wheel hubs for this reason. While blackgum will often have a swollen when growing in wet soils, I also find it in my area on very dry sites with no swell to the stump. In fact, some authors once differentiated between Tupelo gum and blackgum, but now I think most tree geeks agree that these differences are based mostly on site differences.

Finally, someone threw in hedgeapple, i.e. osage. This may also be a possibility. It can have quite variable leaves and has very hard wood, but Tom did not mention the color of the wood in his neighbor's tree. Assuming that this tree is the same species as his neighbor's, it ought to be easy to eliminate osage if the wood was not yellow.

So, the mystery continues, does Tom really know what he has posted or not? Only the shadow knows..

Hugh

more pictures would help... ash is part of the MAD group (maple, ash, dogwood) that all have opposite limbs and leaf arrangement...

Guys,the species is gum. The 90 degree limb angle in the pic proves that

Thanks so much all for the education and time!

Based on all the great info here...

Internet searches....

The great book I just received...

It appears to be black gum!!!

Learning tons how all of the components must add up.

Thanks so much again so I did not waste the time or tree!

Don't care what kind of tree it is. It was fun trying to identify it. I do disagree with this statement, "Last, I do not think that it is sourwood, basswood, or sassafras, based on both bark and leaves. I think any good tree book will bear this out...", as I used a tree identification book and an internet search that supported the sourwood guess.

Don't care what kind of tree it is. It was fun trying to identify it. I do disagree with this statement, "Last, I do not think that it is sourwood, basswood, or sassafras, based on both bark and leaves. I think any good tree book will bear this out...", as I used a tree identification book and an internet search that supported the sourwood guess.

Persimmon

Persimmon

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