At the risk of offending anyone "bowhunting", unfortunately is dying and being replaced by deer shooting. The technology has taken "us" out of the sport. People don't scout or even look for patterns, funnels, learn the areas preferred foods, etc. They bait an area, condition an animal into an area, camera tells them what time to be there, Oxonics means they don't understand or care about wind. So they shoot a deer and before it even expires they make excuses for its size. Crazy. They pull out a scalpel blade and attach it to a knife wannabe. Bring the critter to a butcher, than go home and add another arrow to a quiver with a pre sharpened broad head attached. Pretty sad, what exactly did a guy do besides get up and drive to a spot to kill a deer he knew was coming? This imo is big part of the problem. Things learned that aren't easily gotten are not "thrown away". Imo we should mentor anyone willing to truly learn and in fact should seek out people willing. Tv is against us, the outdoor industry is against us, the new generation doesn't even know what they don't know. The sport needs bowhunting to be what it used to be. There's nothing to ponder, old school is too much work for the instant gratification younger generation. Thank God there's still hills to climb and rivers to cross that see few of this type cause it does not suit me.

I don't think we can compete especially with the never ending array of new technology that seems to come out every year. If a young person is not exposed to an old school mentor, then chances are they will have to take the techno hunter path, and hopefully come to the realization of less is more and begin seeking out the old ways. I think a lot of the under forty crowd of traditional bowhunters are ex compounders and desired a simpler, more historical connection. There will always be a segment of the bowhunting community that desire a traditional path. I love muzzleloaders and black powder (traditional), and even though that whole industry has changed drastically in the last twenty or thirty years, there is still many of us that hold on to the old ways. So it will be with bows and bowhunting, at least I hope.

I first bowhunted for deer at the age of 12 in 1957. This fall will be my 61st. year. I have seen so many changes and "improvements" in bowhunting that it would be very difficult to describe them all. One thing I know for certain, as stated above, "the new generation doesn't even know what they don't know." What a shame!

Great Subject. Taxidermist told my son the other day how much he use to enjoy the Bowhunters coming into his shop with their harvest, Now he says if one more (NEW) Bowhunter tells him I hit 3 Deer this season, One at a hundred yards and 2 others over a hundred yards, But couldn't find em. So I had to settle for this smaller 4X4 22 inch that I took at 82 yards. Now I Hate the Bowhunters< He feels with all the Hunting programs that promote long range shots and all the new technology will one day run the hunter who use to see how close he could get away from hunting and tryin to compete with guys who chase animals with their Razors and things then stop when the Deer or Elk is POOPED OUT, and take a 100 yard shot.OH! and can't find them after a short tracking job. Just speaking from the stand point of a 55 year Bowhunter from Utah.I seen it all this year,It was total insanity> Maybe best for me that at age 72 just to let the Techno folks take it over. Seen the BEST of it,, Now seeing the WORST of it> Some GREAT shooter out there, No Doubt. But some Ethics when it comes to trying to harvest a GREAT animal wouldn't hurt.

October 1, I'll have my recurve in the woods trying to locate and shoot a deer. At 68 I'm too old to start worrying about what people think about me or the way I hunt. Whatever a man hunts with is really non of my business. Whether I get a shot or not, Just being in the woods is what it's about to me. Good luck

Headed towards the bolt I fear. Trad is a lost art anymore I think. Long live the sticks.LOL

To me it's like this. I see all the new techno hunters out there, then I am urged to join the "group" and come into the "big tent".

I would sooner see hunting go the way of the Buffalo than be part of what it is becoming.

So, sadly, I don't really see a future for real hunting.

I'm telling you guys always respect the stick bow. Like myself I was a compound hunter, it's all I knew. None off my buddies shot trad. I got away from the fancy latest and greatest and went to something simple. It takes over, forget the other crap.

I think you'll see more guys going back a step further years to come. You can only get bigger and better so long.

I think you're old men selling millenials short. The generation before you sold you short and the generation before them sold them short.

Damning their own kids and grandkids has always been "traditional" for some folks.

You have some of the long time members of the site complain about having to repeatedly answer the same newbie questions. So while it may be annoying, it should also be refreshing as it is new blood joining the tradition ranks.

There will always be a traditional niche as a % seek simpler things.

I don't think we can compete, but hopefully some will hold to tradition. I'm teaching my two young grandsons and I hope they'll stick with it and pass it on to their kids. Their mom's side of the family is into the easier, faster, more powerful and more often than not, illegal side of things. I'm showing them the way I do things, explaining why and the choice is ultimately theirs. So far, they seem to understand and appreciate the traditional aspect more. I'd love them to stay with trad gear throughout their lives, but regardless of their choice of weapons, I hope they grow into ethical hunters and that they learn to love the outdoors and get as much out of the experience as I have.

What 4nolz said. Traditional archery in all of it's facets is growing. Whether that means we will build more hunters is something the future will know. I think it will grow as it has now for the past twenty couple years. This pessimistic pontificating comes by here once a year at least. What say I? I say the future is as bright as you help to make it. That takes optimism and work. I think the kids will do just fine overall.

I just got another 13 year old into traditional archery, and I saw a bunch of them at the last two archery festivals I've attended. Future looks pretty bright for archery in all phases.

I'm not worried about it.

Where I'm from, much of the land being hunted is leased now which has been a change and some of the public lands now are available only in public draws, which is also a change.

The future of traditional archery hunting will work out just fine and younger folks will teach their own - their own way. Just as my father and uncle taught us their way. It'll be different, but the new generation will be the ones to read and respond to the technical questions, not propose them. However, shooting recurves, longbows, and selfbows will become more popular than ever, and just like now, our own granddudes will still not have any patience for the next generation's old dog stories.

Good post, thanks. I get tired of the technology side of this sport also. But the amount of land that is now posted because "it's my deer" syndrome is really trouble some. Not trying to derail this thread either.

Quite a few young people at ETAR this year, and that's always good to see.

guys still play a stratocastser and telecaster,,,,, and artist still paint with paint and brush, there will alwasys be those that appreciate the magic of tradition archery,, country,,,, rhythm and blues will always be around ,, and tradition archery,,:) fads and trendy are not the bases for classic and timeless,, I am old enough to know that,,, wait and see,,,,

IMHO,ditto what George said.

Hunting in general is in trouble. The next generation lives increasingly in a digital world, an electronic fantasy land. Eventually they'll realize it's hollow and do something real though. I think less of them will be outdoors for sure. Land to hunt is getting much harder to get permission to be on. Time in normal life to hone skills like stalking and learning natures patterns takes time and everyone has less of that now. There has to be some retraction with these factors.

Man's internal desire to hunt will never completely go away though. Hunting will evolve, and needs to, to stay vibrant. Hopefully not all of them are going to be shooting an xbow with bluetooth tracking arrows forever, both of which are the new craze here. I'll bet that some of them after hunting for a few years will figure out that they're shooting fish in a barrel. Challenge will drive some of them to not be like the b.s. on television and actually become a true hunter and not a robot in a tree.

How many of you have passed it on to children and grandchildren or work with kids at a Trad Club? Mine are going to be just fine, and they would bring their friends who then sometimes brought a curious parent. It's not for everybody, it was never meant to be, and there is no real marketing value in it. Those that are suitable will seek it out, just be there to answer their questions and help. Not as easy as complaining, but it works.

Some good points David about it's not for everybody and never has been.

I keep aorund an old 25# Damon Howatt Chinook for those in the family who want to go out back and have some fun shooting. None of my granddudes have an interest in scaring a rabbit down an old soil washout at the edge of a field like I enjoyed at their age, but they do like competition and the challenge of shooting a paper plate. They don't even have an interest in keeping an old jar of sponges and chicken guts for catfishing or have cut off the head of an old channel cat and skinned'em for the skillet like my brother and I at their age. But one of them will be shooting a bow, I'm sure of it.

I agree with George. Since the compound the so called "traditionalists" have been in the minority, but we didn't become extinct and there seems to be some growth taking place. I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing no matter what happens in the technology/archery world.

I sadly see trad hunting and hunting in general as a fading light. The problem is people don't care how they kill as long as they kill. They want a challenge as long as it isn't much of one !!!! Technology in hunting that makes killing easier and easier and easier is a cancer that will most certainly consume the sport. There is no light at the end of the tunnel !!! With all the technology, hunting is simply becoming shopping and involves less and less challenge as time goes by. :( :( Bowguy is 100% correct !!!!!!!!

I started in archery with the technology, and after some time, I became bored. No one influenced me, and no one really taught me....all that I know I learned on my own through trial and error. In a way I feel I earned what I have. If no one wants to learn, they probably didnt need to know anyway. I'll never go back.

So according to this friendly book I read, hunters divide into 4 types (though may share bits if each). 1) dominators "whack em and stack em. It's an ego boost. And this is not meant as a criticism. 2) challenge oriented 3) harvest oriented 4) naturalistis. 4 is 10%, the rest equally divided.

So any of us might get here by any route, but if you want to recruit, the reality is mainstream hunting pretends to be mostly in 1), and that would be the group you might be least likely to successfully recruit from, and same for 3. Sure veteran trads are killing machines in some cases, but if you never hunted before or shot a bow, trad is not the way to go. I would recommend air bow for any season, where legal.

So basically, I think we looking in the wrong places. Look for people you might overlook, more tending to university educated. It isn't that people won't get here from the mainstream, but that isn't the place where we will find overlooked opportunities.

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That said, I could care less about the future of bowhunting. It's just a sport that people play, like windsurfing, whatever happened to that? Or Hobie cat racing. Stuff comes and goes all the time. One doesn't want it banned, because that is denying us our liberty. But if we don't want to do it any longer, who cares. Apparently at that point nobody. As long as it is legal, you can always trad hunt, you just can't always do it knowing that you are part of a pack of like minded individuals, which isn't something I care about.

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Arguably bow hunting is the most technologically crazy of all the hunting sports, at least until they got 4K AR users into gun hunting. I think the reason for that is because they pushed the side of it that was Fred Bear like for so long, the technology just burst out. If it wasn't banned, deer hunters would use drone gun/bow ships to hunt deer (it's for the kids, crips like me, and women), there doesn't seem to be any built in brake about giving deer a fair chance. So maybe the whole thing will backlash again and bowhunting will return with respect for fair chase.

From how many different angles are we going to approach this same subject? This thread is quickly going the way of the Not a Bow thread, basically because we are talking about the same subject. There are more choices now than there used to be. Some people choose a more modern weapon and others choose to stay with what they started with. The trend is highly biased toward the modern equipment because that is what the vast majority of the vendors sell. The advertising is directing the market towards the modern stuff. It is pretty simple to see where archery is going so we can quit rehashing that story once a week and just enjoy our little niche of the sport.

I'm going to be a little rough here...But I think sometimes you just have to simply speak the truth.

I started bowhunting at the age of 12 in 1977. There were not near the numbers of bowhunters back then as now.

We have more access to bowhunting info and gear now than ever before.

The compound bow took over the archery industry, in leaps and bounds but traditional bows are still very much a part of bowhunting for many.

I look at bowhunting as an individual preference, not some self imagined elite or non-elite group.

I am for lack of better terms a "traditional" bowhunter, but I can assure you that within the "traditional bowhunter" numbers there are major differences of character and endeavor.

I have way more in common with many "non-traditional" bowhunters than many that carry a stickbow. Frankly the ONLY thing in common between myself and another guy might be that our bows only have one string.

When I think bowhunting, I think about the whole picture not just what happens to be in my hand.

It's summer practice.. It's YEAR ROUND! time spent in the mountains...

It's frosty mornings, and warm afternoons..

It's sunshine and rain..it's snow and wind...

It's the smell of woodsmoke beside a campfire..

It's lack of sleep and sore tired muscles..

It's long uneventful hrs on stand...it's the rush when game is spotted.

It's the utter silence of being alone far from civilization...

It's early season...the excitement of fall and the rut... and the bone chilling cold of Jan late season.

It's autumn splendor..its dead and bare winter.

It's turkey's gobbling, it's elk bugling...and grouse drumming..

It's to be awestruck...over and over and over...

It's tuning equipment... It's going solo...it's hunting companions.

It's time spent reflecting on life...God..and family..

It's sweetness of success...and the ache of failure..

It's not an occasional activity....It's a life.

If you think for one moment that these things depend only on whether or not your bow only has one string....

You got a lot to learn.

For those of us that are actually involved with the youth of this sport we see archery circling back to traditional gear. The national youth seen has a large traditional following. Youth do trend toward wanting the latest gear and they enjoy competing with it. Many also are intrigued by traditional gear. Involve yourself with a youth group and pass this sport forward. Most kids will lay down the video games if shown something equally as interesting to them.

I'm a finger picking country blues kinda guy at heart and make and use my hunting bows of osage, yew, and others and will likely do it until I die. As a bowyer, I'll help anyone who shows a genuine interest as I feel it's a craft worthy of passing on... and that sect is very healthy.

As a bowhunter, I have the same approach, but if you're currently of the techno-shortcut mindset, we have practically nothing to talk about. I work with a bunch of guys with whom I share the archery season, and we have practically NO common ground and nothing to talk about. I have no interest in what they're doing and it goes way beyond gear choice... and I'm ok with that.

That said, I don't understand why folks feel like we're 'competing' with them or the new gear that comes out? Do you mean for game seasons? For 'your deer'? Or wall space at Cabelas? Or what? I don't feel like I'm competing with anyone or anything. I'm so glad I'm on my own journey... and content.

Why are we even concerned about how other choose to hunt?? I'm a younger guy, most of my friends hunt with trad equipment, some hunt with compounds, a few with an x-bow, and a few don't even bow hunt. It's their choice on how they want to hunt.

The other day there was a story on the "news" that almost had my wife in tears. While I agree with my wife's point of view I wasn't even close to tears.

My advice to her was to put it in perspective. My money says that she might not even be aware of the topic if she hadn't heard it on the radio. Simply pay less attention to the radio. LOL

Same here. Some things on the forums, youtube or magazines probably seem like a bigger deal than they really are because of the amount of time and space we devote to them.

I should add, one of those coworkers, a woodworker and friend, who has been strictly a compound user for decades, asked me the other day out of the blue if I would show him how to make a bow after hunting season was over. From compound to making his own stickbow. Sure, no problem, we'll have a lot to talk about then ;^)

We are our own worst enemy.

I started with trad equipment and went with primitive. I don't feel like I am competing with anyone. I rarely see a hunter of any persuasion in the woods. Jawge

I just hunt the way I like the old school way...I can only try to be the best example I can and offer info to who ever might be interested.

The art of bowhunting has been dying for many years. Technology and hunter's desires have taken the hunt out of the hunt and have attempted to redefine what a bow actually is.

In states where crossbows are legal during the general archery season for all to use, such as Michigan and Wisconsin, in less than ten years over half off all former bowhunters laid down their bow and quit bowhunting. Many still hunt..... but they are not bowhunters, they are crossbow hunters.

There is no going back, I was lucky enough to have bowhunted since the 1960's and still use a selfbow and cedars today. I do not own a compound or crossbow, never needed them to harvest my desired animals.

The biggest issue I see with bowhunting, or ANY hunting for that matter is access. If you don't have a place to hunt, then what equipment and methods you choose to hunt with aren't even in the equation. It won't matter.

When I was a kid all we hunted was small game because there were not a lot of deer, and what deer there were on the places we were able to small game hunt (and we had a LOT of places to do that, and access could be had by simply asking), were "reserved" for the landowner's family/friends. But the point is we were IN the woods and HUNTING, and we did a LOT of it. We also did a lot of trapping, without parents driving us around. We walked, and walked, and walked. This is almost unheard of today.

Almost every year I get requests from someone new to help them get into traditional archery. I do my best for all of them. And gain great pleasure from watching their success and the passion they get from the same endeavors we all do. I get alot of texts with pics of their "firsts". Very gratifying. Just seeing a traditional bow and watching it launch an arrow has a primordial pull on people. I think the traditional bow is the best spokesman for our passion, and will win the day. Even older/disabled guys with crowwbows (now a majority of hunters during "bow" season in VA) come up to me on public hunting grounds and say they wish they could shoot a "real" bow. Their words, not mine.

simple answer? it's not a competition.

I fully understand what the OP is saying. But... I don't feel a need to compete with anyone, or any group, about my shooting. I prefer to appreciate and support those of similar ilk than fret too much about the way things are going (and that's true of life in general these days). And I have more respect for a compound shooter or such with good values than a trad shooter without them.

Hope and negativity are killers.

Do, act, stop grumbling.

What concerns me most about the technology is not the loss of Ancient Skills, but the perception by non-hunters (not Antis - no pleasing them!) that we simply have too much of an advantage. They may not understand the nuances of Trophy Hunting vs Sport Hunting vs Subsistence Hunting, but they DO seem to have a grasp of Fair Chase.

And those are the people who could vote a lot of hunting opportunities right out of existence.

What other people use, though...

Around here, the biggest issue is access to private land. Does it push my Righteous Indignation button that we have guys on my state forum who talk about monitoring feeders and their buck "inventory" around 50-60 a give stand sites? Hell, yes - especially when they have many acres of private land locked up and they hunt public land as well. Just seems like Game Hoggery to me - especially when they're using tactics & equipment - chiefly Baiting & Crossbows - which were authorized specifically to promote total harvest, but they are actually just making it easier for themselves to put big heads (plural) on the wall every year and letting surplus does walk.

Not saying that they aren't investing loads of time, effort and cash, but they're "managing" the resource entirely for their own benefit. And those are the guys that I have to "compete" with around here - just for places to hunt. Public land is public, but there's precious little of it and it's common practice here to stake a claim to a spot by hanging stands - some of which haven't been used in years.

In the end, I advocate for good management of the resource and the rest....? I can't control other people, especially not in matters of taste. And even out here where they limit public-land shotgun tags to 1 for every 20 acres within a specific unit, you can still hike up a steep ridge and have the top of it all to yourself. Just need to make the time and have the motivation.

And if I should do that and run across another Hunter using a compound, I'll be as happy to meet him as he is to meet me.

I do think crossbows should be allowed on private land only, though - that's where the density is a problem, and public land gets pounded too hard as it is.

Bow hunting and archery, the way I do it, will live on in my heart until I leave this earth. I don't need to compete. After I'm gone it matters not to me or the rest of the world. In fact, what I do matters not to everyone else, now. ;~)

Woods Walker, us too. I never outgrew some parts of being a young outdoorsman. I still do a lot of walking and spend a good bit of time in the woods doing things not related at all to deer hunting. I saw ONE other person in the woods so far all year.

Too many bowhunters these days are not bowhunters. They care little about the history and heritage of the sport and could care less about making the sport challenging. They want to kill something and kill it now. The bow is nothing more than a tool to them. I also am very disappointed at the general apathy within the ranks of "serious" bowhunters. There is becoming a general acceptance to crossbows. One only has to read threads on this site to see that trend. We are more concerned that everyone gets a participation trophy than in maintaining some standards for acceptable equipment.

I agree it is not totally a competition. However, that was not always the case. Fred, Roy and others fought very hard to get a separate bowhunting season from the gun hunters(at least in Michigan and Wisconsin). In many states we have since given that bowhunting season away to the special seasons, and to the crossbow hunters.

If it is not a competition, how many are willing to vote for one hunting season, shoot any weapon you please?

what is called bowhunting today has nothing in common with what bowhunting meant or represented in the 50s and 60s as bow seasons were being won and tested in every state.

it is more about the kill, about huge monsterous antlers, it is about accessories and technology to make it an EVERYMAN sport even if you have no business in the woods. You dont have to have any strength with 90% or higher letoff compounds or 0% letoff if you use a crossgun or bowloc device. You can have lighted nocks, lighted sights and now bluetooth enabled arrows to assist in tracking your arrow(deer) that was poorly shot in little to no light at ranges too far.

You are starting to see landowners refuse modern bowhunters just as they did dog drives and rifle hunters a few years ago...I have gained access not because I am a bow hunter but because I shot a longbow or recurve. It garners more respect from those that know bowhunting or have been exposed....it puts the animals on a more level playing field...as when I am within 5-18 yds I am WOLF CLOSE inside their most capable defenses...a hell of a lot of more skill is need to get that close to a wary old whitetail doe than to shoot a B&C at 125 yds with your compound or 250yds with your Jim Shockey approved breech loading "black powder" using pellets, sabots, scopes, shotgun primers and is more like a single shot rifle than a true black powder gun.

You are also seeing where fed up bowhunters (shooting what we call traditional) are lobbying wildlife agencies as bow seasons are removed due to the high number of hunters and successes and going to a general all weapons season...that is what we have in SC on private land. one long season from 15 Aug through 1 Jan for any legal weapon. No bow season in early months or after January even though does are still breeding and horns are on the bucks into February and even March sometimes.

The real bowhunters are lobbying to get our bow seasons for primitive weapons turned back on...or restricted to the weapons envisioned and used back during their inception in 50s. Longbows, recurves, selfbows....period. No mechanical advantages, no triggers, no rifle stocks, no electronic or lighted nocks and sight pins....stick and string.

THere is actually a receptive ear in some areas....and lots of information needs to be collected. In the end we got to show we are DIFFERENT than the majority of so called bowhunters. We are about the hunt not getting pics on cover of magazines after making 100yd shots at deer...or picking and choosing high fence deer with antlers that are impossible in the wild under normal circumstances. It is so perverted that new hunters only know what they see on television or hear at their local pro shops...if you are not shooting a book deer every year then you are a failure if you believe everything you read or hear.

I get very aggravated when I see guys even in trad forums APOLOGIZE for their does, 6pts, 8 pts or other whitetails taken with trad gear at ethical ranges....just because the society thinks you are a failure unless you make the P&Y or B&C...not realizing both of those organizations are FOR PROFIT and they make their money by memberships and hype sells memberships. That is why I think crossbows will be allowed in next 10 years...they already bypassed 65% letoff rule and lighted nocks.

So the future of bow hunting is re-establishing primitive ONLY areas for bowhunters (longbow, recurve or selfbow) and black powder hunters (front stuffed with balls or conicals and open sights with loose powder)....the BIG TENT did not work...it did not help anyone except the AMA, the P&Y and the pocket books of the manufacturers. Now you are hearing compound guys complain about the crossgun...but they were all for their inclusion before. It is only because crossguns are outselling modern mechanical compounds....and hurting their bottom line. So now instead of taking a compound out of box at sporting goods store and clerk helping you mount sights, nocks and get some arrows and have you shooting 10 ring at 40yds in 15 minutes.....they can get you set up with crossgun and scope with bolts and hit same 40-60yds in 5 minutes....with no strength or form to worry about. If you can shoot a .22 rifle you can shoot a crossgun and be hunting in your bow season that same afternoon/evening.

When the bubble breaks....it is going to take us standing together as true bowhunters and stop apologizing for our beliefs and start acknowledging how this is the purer form of hunting...where woodsmanship, focus, dedication are all required for success...and where we are put up close and personal with our prey where the kill almost becomes anti-climatic.

I have never met a new traditional bowhunter that felt better about the big 9 point they shot with their compound or rilfe.....than the doe or spike they shot at 8 yds with their recurve. THe thrill, the excitement, the heart pounding, the dry mouth, the shaking........you dont get that from shooting at long ranges you only get that from being close and within that circle of danger where luck has almost as much to do with it as effort especially with swirling winds or sometimes they just get out of town for no reason.

Being close enough to hear them crunch acorns and see them swallow down their throat as you wait for them to turn or walk past your hide in a clump of myrtle bushes.....there is nothing that compares...NOTHING!

We have to be willing to speak out and not be afraid of the jabs and comments we are going to get from the modern bow crowds and even some of our own so called "traditionalists"..... I shot a compound for years before going trad...I have no desire to shoot one now and my shot expectations then were a fare cry different than they are now. The experience, the mentality, the definition of success is not the same. If you find someone that does think the same and hunt the same....introduce them to a recurve and they will never go back to compounds. Usually they dont think the trad bows are effective from all the pro shop talk or downplaying done by those in industry or their "Friends"

Get our bow seasons back by identifying ourselves as DIFFERENT than those guys on television and around town.....show them our love and pure devotion to our sport....the limitations of our equipment but also the self imposed restrictions most of us use to hunt within those parameters......and the joy and respect we have for any successful kill not just the ones that would make a magazine cover.

keep em sharp,

ron herman

Everything evolves. I was there when the compound looked like it would take over every aspect of the sport. It almost did, but some held on, and now traditional archery is healthier than it has ever been. If you want to whine and grumble, then actually get out there and see where you can help get people interested. Here in Pa., we see growth and exuberance, not a wholesale exodus from the sport. The shoot this past weekend always reaffirms that to us. There were literally hundreds of families there enjoying the event.

As for hunter access, that is also something that has to be worked for where private property is king. Here in Pa. we have over 4 million acres of good public land, but also over 2 million acres of shared access through private land cooperators. Also, we have many areas of privately held land that will allow hunting if they are approached and asked...and treated respectfully with a follow up after the season. No....the sport isn't in decline, but poor attitudes can make it seem that way. Sometimes declining numbers aren't always bad either. You have to look at the overall prospect, and not what they are talking about on the net or at the local club.

I think the comparison and worry about 100 yrds shots and archers becoming more like gun hunters is not really valid.

I think the accuracy of the archer at 100 yrds, with sights and with a compound is never going to be as good as the accuracy of a shooter, even with the lowly .22. I think an average (gun)shot without much practice can make 3" groups at 100 yrds no problem.

I cannot concieve of an archer doing that, and if they can they will have worked very hard to achieve that, so deserve their dead buck.

I think that there will never be over-shooting of a species if hunted with a bow as it takes so much time skill and commitment... Unlike hunting with a gun.

Alex

We will have a 100 million more people in the US by 2050. I am sure a small percentage will learn the ways of Traditional Archery. The Insurance companies will always lobby to find a way to kill Deer, Primitive to High Tech methods. Choose to teach those 100 million people the ways of the past, some of it will stick.

I agree, declining numbers are not always bad. If available hunting land is declining, what is wrong with hunter numbers declining along with it?

I have always maintained that with all the advancements in hunting technology and evolutions in hunter attitudes, it will eventually lead to decreased opportunity, and it has.

Decreased opprtunity comes in many forms,....limited drawings so common in the west, APR's, minimum antler width, shorter seasons, season quotas, no hunting government wilderness areas, parks and monuments, less private land availablity, to name a few.I am fine if we lose hunters to the internet,casinos and the liberals.

We do not need more hunters to vote, we need more voters sympathetic to hunting. We have become our own worst enemy with trespassing, horn porn, tech advancements etc. We are no longer viewed as a hard working outdoor group, we are largely viewed as horn and hide hunters for ego, not table food and culture. That is our end game!

In the west, 80 yard plus shots with a compound are commonly taken. Very commonly!

Good post Ron Herman.

Where is bow hunting headed?

Out into the woods in about 10 days.

I started bowhunting before compounds (early 60's) then on to the compound for a few years, killed lots of critters, then back to the recurve when I out grew the killing thingey and learned to enjoy the hunt. Now due to age and health issues I hunt with a cross bow, still climb 25 feet up with a climber, at 75 but have not taken a deer in several years, by choice. I do shoot every hog I see. I don't care what anyone else chooses to hunt with as long as they don't interfere with my hunting. The squirrel hunters and dogs do mess up my bow hunts lots of times in my area but Hey, this is public land and they have just as much right to the use of the land as I do.

James

Ron Herman, I concur.

Ron Herman you said it well.

I am teaching two young peopel to make and shoot and hunt right now,, they sought me out,, and are excitedd to learn something,, thats where archery is going,, there are young people that think and have respect for the outdoors and archery,,be negative if you like,, but concentrating on teaching and passing things down,, will get things further along for sure,, yes it is possible that trad archery will disappear,,, anything is possible,, but look at cultures many thousands of years older than us,, and they still have traditional archery,, why is that,,,,,,,,,because people love it,,

I'm a new bow hunter. Last year was my first year. I began with a craigslist compound for $25. Because I shot fingers with it it felt more like a trad bow. Then a great guy gives me his old bear recurve and I've been hooked on trad since.

I used to just be a "meat hunter". For the life of me I couldn't understand why someone would want to spend all that time and effort trying to shoot a deer with a bow when they could just easily walk into the woods with a rifle, shoot a deer and get back home. Just hurry up and get it done! I used to think. Also...the hunting programs had way to much music and fake drama and adrenaline for my taste and not enough learning.

Now...I'm married, 2 kids and life is busier but somehow has slowed down at the same time. I really enjoy researching, scouting and sitting in the woods. I didn't connect last year and might not this year but I'll continue. I want that up close shot where I had to use my noggin to get into the right position. Its more about me the hunter rather than the weapon because now I need more skill than just shooting a rifle.

With xbows being more and more common and all the gadgets on compounds with 99% let off we'll see crazier and crazier shots. These sorts of weapons encourage the immediate gratification crowd out there and there's lots of money to be made from them.

I don't think bowhunting is dying...I think its growing.

Some of you guys need to get on Youtube and watch some of the ..Born and raised outdoors elk hunting videos.

I enjoy watching their videos They always make me smile. Frankly I could care less if their bows have more strings on them than mine, I'd hunt with guys like that anytime. On one of their videos one of their gang is hunting with a recurve, rest are compound shooters.

It would be silly to say they are not bowhunters.

I imagine while we are yammering around on here about where bowhunting is heading...guys like them are back in the bush...Doing what "bowhunters" do.

Short Hair put into words my thoughts and feelings have always belived that

its growing, traditional is the fastest growing segment.

At 65, I'm about 15 months into pulling a bowstring. I've spent much time backpacking, love the woods, and hope to harvest a deer, but for now I'm focused simply on form and improving groupings. I'm very much enjoying learning a new skill, and like golf, it will take much repetition...done correctly...to get to where I need to be in terms of accuracy and reproducibility. Shooting recurve. Got introduced by my cousin's husband-a good teacher, and an enthusiastic bowman. I'm late in the game, but I'm in it.

I actually think it is a fascinating time we are in right now. There is so much good content being put out specifically for trad hunters. We have films like those being put out by Clay Hayes and the Push podcasts that are celebrating the struggles that we are imposing on ourselves. when I started shooting a trad bow 15 years ago it was tough to find people out there to inspire me. It was reading a few posts here and there and a lot of people saying, you can't use that thing. I find it refreshing to see the number of younger folks (my age and younger - I'm 36 for the record) that are taking the effort on. Some of the younger guys may look funny with their flat brimmed hats and fancy camo that costs more than my truck payment, but they are at heart longing for that connection to the hunt - they just need the voice and guidance to get there. Inspire each other and we'll continue to grow. If we fail to inspire and instill that connection, we go as well.

I hate what I'm seeing. Hated it 20 years ago-- and it's worse now. Walked into a small archery shop several years ago and even though the owner liked to hunt trad, sold some traditional tackle, he had posters all over the walls that advertised the latest "cool" compounds and hunting gadgets. The people in the ads looked like they were dressed up for a spec ops run in Afghanistan or Syria. They even had the token "hot chick" all camoed-up in their squad of "hunters". Not merely wrong, Leatherwallers but... vile.

I am a hunting ARCHER ....Bowhunting is for compounds and crossbows which is not archery....

Here in Indiana there is a major shift in guys changing over to recurve/longbow, and at the same time a ton of xbow guys that are normally gun only just to get in on the early/extended/more time in the field hunts. I then see some of these guys change to compound, then to a recurve, ect... I agree with Mr. Herman, but there is a ray of hope as the Man that seeks higher knowledge and challenges will find his way to the Stickbow no matter what level our current technology may be at any given time. Our greatest threat is Public hunting land loss, land development and over-population.

Someone who hunts with a crossbow is called a ARBALIST, NOT a "archer"...

Like a few others on here I have been shooting a bow since the 50's and was fortunate enough to work in my dads archery shop as a teenager. I have seen the turn first hand. Dad closed the doors in 68 when K-mart, Wards and other stores were flooded with bows at a reduced rate and dad could not compete with them. My brother got married and I went off to the service. Dad was a full time iron worker and worked in the shop in the evenings and weekends and after the help was gone he shut the doors.

We went to archery tournaments every summer weekend where I saw hundreds of archers using recurves and longbows and those same archers uses recurves and longbows to hunt with and then IT happened. The compound hit the scene. It made shooting a bow much easier. It didn't necessarily make it easier to hit the target but easier to shoot the bow. And today you see what is on the shelves at the stores. We live in a got to have it now society and the compounds and crossbows make it much easier to hunt.

We have a longbow club in Michigan that had rules at their shoot. The rules were longbows and wooden arrows only. Now that has changed to any arrow and that is how it starts. People find a crack and the crack turns into a hole. We have probably 5 or 6 traditional only shoots a year and I would be willing to bet, MAYBE, 25% of those archers stick with traditional gear. It would be an interesting survey to take.

Having been an archer for so long I decided to learn the primitive way, making selfbows and flint knapping my hunting heads, hunting on the ground. As Mr. Herman wrote, getting close to the game is a challenge and to me a lot of fun. I shot a bear last week with a recurve at 6 yards. It didn't get any better than that.

Many can disagree with what I wrote but I have seen the turn, been to shoots where archers hang up their trad gear and grab what ever else and hit the woods. I almost NEVER see another hunter using a longbow or recurve.

Where is archery heading? Like I wrote earlier, "we are our own worst enemy".

Where is bow hunting headed? If any of us woke up this morning, and we are tapping out a reply to the thread on our phones, iPads, or computers, we are Blessed. There are plenty of opportunities to hunt as we want, how we want. Our health will be the single most influential factor. Shoot straight. Give thanks.

When the term bowhunting is dying is used, it means that the trend from using bows, bows as defined by the P&Y club, is in decline. This is true.

Yes, there are occassional shifts to traditionalstickbows, but to say it is growing, what is the refernce or control point? The 1950's,60's, 2010, your own club numbers, what? Are you saying traditional is at an all time high, even before compounds were invented. Let's hear real numbers to back these growing claims.

By the way, Wisconsin has published statististic, crossbow use has surpassed all other bow use combined, bows as defined by the P&Y club. In that state, bowhunting as defined by the P&Y club is in a steep free fall. Bowhunting therefore is dying in Wisconsin. And in Michigan too, AND, I will suggest in every state where crossbows are allowed by every hunter in the general archery season. Why keep denying these trends, why?

Does are only one part of the issue. Crossbows are also used to kill bear, antelope, elk and other big game animals, many already on quite limited harvest restrictions. This will only worsen, less opportunity is coming for all...... and should be as we make killing easier.

Crossbows are not a part bowhunting, read the P&Y description on their website. If you use a crossbow fine, but you are not a bowhunter. Did anyone notice how many post a picture of themselves, or their kids on Bowsite,..... but omit the bow or weapon from the picture. I wonder how many are not really bowhunters, yet they are posting on a bowhunting forum.

I dont consider the modern compound a bow or bowhunting either. When you can draw 70lbs and only have to hold 7# at full draw...and can hold that for minutes while an animal comes in closer or comes from behind the obstruction....that is a mechanical advantage far beyond what was intended for bowhunting seasons. Part of bowhunting is the challenge and difficulty in getting a shot within range and undetected at close ranges.

When you can shoot 75+ yards easily....and hold at full draw for a turkey or elk or whitetail for minutes. It may be hunting but is not bowhunting...

keep em sharp,

ron herman

It is my hope that bowhunting in all forms is growing.

It is also my hope they will become more polarized, the techno compounds will continue to become more techno, and the stick and string will stay stick and string. let both factions grow, and let both of them change, for change can be good. I harbor not ill feeling for the changing technology crowd.

oz

"how can the old school bowhunters compete with all the new stuff coming out each year..."

I wasn't aware that it was a competition. I think most folks here are only competing with themselves and trying to accomplish their own personal goals. That's how I feel anyway.

When I get tired of working so hard, I grab a rifle and go grocery shopping. I'm not too proud to do that. We all do in fact. It's why they have a meat aisle at the grocery store. ;)

There will always be way more people willing to do things the easiest possible way, than those that appreciate the rewards and challenges of doing things the hard way. Kevin Callan told me that once someplace is easy to get to, wilderness is gone. The difference between a speed boat infested lake and a canoe only wilderness area. Transplant to a small Iowa DNR plot. A nice late October day, you are out with your favorite recurve or longbow, then you get overrun by 6 inline muzzleloader hunters doing a deer drive right over top of you. Another, you are watching a buck out in an alfalfa field, then some joker starts taking 150 yard pot shots with his xbow until he is out of bolts. Exceptions, I know, but there are more of these 'exceptions' every year.

Hunting should not be a competition, but for many it has become ego driven.

I believe that is why many promote APR's, "let em go, let em grow", have antlers scored in inches, promote TV, YouTube and print ads that clearly state how many record book animals have been taken or the B&C score, etc, etc etc. Sadly, that is what hunting has become.

The last whitetail deer I killed with a compound bow was about 15 years ago. When I shot that deer, the excitement was gone. I didn't get excited, nervous, nothing. Pulled back my Mathews compound bow, waited for the deer to offer a good shot angle, placed a pin on the lungs area, squeezed a release trigger. The deer ran about 40 yards and piled up. I got down and wished I could remove the arrow like a fish hook and let him jump back up and run off (catch and release). It was no fun. It had become too easy. There was very little challenge. To the point I quit. I sold off all my compound stuff and invested it in fly rods and reels and fly tying equipment. Fast forward about 7 years later and I got the urge to be in the woods, but knew I wanted nothing to do with compound bows again. Years before I had a custom takedown recurve that I never really gave an honest try at. This time I wanted a challenge, so I bought a recurve and some necessities and began shooting it in the yard. Before long the traditional side of bowhunting bit me hard. Been shooting and hunting with my recurves ever since, and been semi-successful in killing deer. But...even when it don't all come together in the woods, the fun is back. I've let MANY deer walk that just didn't get close enough or offer the right angles that I would have easily killed with a compound bow. The limits of traditional tackle (for me) has put the HUNT back in bowhunting. Its put a challenge into the hunt that I didn't experience with modern equipment. Getting "stickbow close" to the game I pursue adds to the excitement and makes a hunter acquire woodsmanship skills instead of just being a good shot at long distances with modern equipment. I see all the new modern equipment that some of my friends have and it don't bother me. I am on my own journey, not theirs. I do draw the line with a crossbow...that's not archery, nor bowhunting. I don't have a problem with anyone hunting with one, just don't do it in bowhunting seasons that our forefathers fought so hard for. Use it in general (firearms or whatever) seasons.

Actually the whole "archery in it's truest sense" ideology I can go along with. A wood recurve or longbow is where bow hunting evolved from..This isn't a what came first the chicken or the egg argument.

Compounds evolved into archery, they did NOT! initiate it. Bow hunting was here long, long before wheels and cables...

What makes me laugh about these threads is the underlying idea that just because we choose the "hard way" that somehow makes us a more accomplished and skilled hunter... your bow doesn't make you a good hunter, what's between your ears does.

There are some very accomplished and skilled hunters that hunt with compounds. And make use of modern technology.

It is like my friend Marv Cochran wrote in TBM a few issues back,we are being attacked with identity theft,those hi tech people are being grouped in with us and they ARE NOT ONE OF US.About all some people know about hunting is what they see on the junk tube. Terry

"'"how can the old school bowhunters compete with all the new stuff coming out each year...' I wasn't aware that it was a competition. I think most folks here are only competing with themselves and trying to accomplish their own personal goals. That's how I feel anyway."

And that's how it oughtta be, but here's a reality check for you.....

On the "Do you let them walk?" thread, one of the guys (from CO, pretty sure) mentioned that out in his neck o' the woods, BOWHUNTING season is buck-only, by-lottery only. So IF you are lucky engh to get a tag, and IF you are lucky enough (and good enough and work hard enough) to get a clean shot at a legal buck.... Not many are prepared to pass that up.

But that right there is where the real Competition is - it's not IN the field, it's for the right to BE in the field. And that's where this stuff actually begins to amount to something.

Time was, Bowhunters... Man, you had to be NUTS! You give up your option to hunt with a rifle so that you can traipse around in green tights with your silly little pointy sticks??

You had to be pretty damn serious about your archery, your solitude, or BOTH in order to make that into a paying proposition.

But that's who the season was created for. The nuts. The kooks. The fanatics. The Merry Men.

And when it was unlimited OTC tags, well... the woods never really got all that terribly crowded because given the choice between a rifle OR a bow, the vast majority would quite (well, not quite) literally stick to their guns... There was more interest in muzzleloading, because at least those were still firearms, and the season was a little longer than Rifle, and it was the Rut and all.... So they made that a lottery-only season.

But JMO, once tags become limited, it is time for the rules to allow ONLY those who are willing to play by the rules of the game as they were understood at the time that the game began. The CMLA saw it coming, and they have always argued for a strict interpretation of "ML" to reflect "settlement era" technology; in-lines have become legal, because open sights are open sights and (with a full-bore bullet and loose powder) they're the ballistic EQUIVALENT of a period-correct piece; just uglier and less efficient. The CBA hasn't been as quick to fight the tech. But JMO, there is something seriously WRONG with the system when a hunter who is willing to play by the rules of the game AS ORIGINALLY UNDERSTOOD is unable to participate because of competition from those who could not care less about how it was "back when" and are just looking to exploit a sweet opportunity through a loophole in the regs.

I think CO has dialed back to a 65% max let-off, but I'm not sure how many know, care or comply with that....

Anyway... Time for supper, so End Of Rant.

Just something to think about..

Feather..have you killed game with a spear? Where would somebody who has rank on your list of "better"?

Feather said better hunters than most, not better than everyone. He is correct.

Wrong...but that's ok

On a lighter note : ) I wonder if the Scythians felt the same way about the Romans hunting with crossbows while they themselves were still using Horn bows, haha! This will go on for another thousand years!

Accepting a greater challenge, is what Trad Bowhunting promises. Is being a better hunter the purpose of hunting? Hard to see how one becomes a better hunter by dodging all challenge and taking the easy way. But it's about the challenge for me, and evidently also was for Hill, but many hunters have different reasons.

Different types include people who accept the challenge; people who want other people to see that they have met a challenge; people who want to produce an end result of a material kind like meet. People who have a spiritual goal.

No argument Feather..wrong is wrong and it's ok. Carry on

Boxcall- I myself have compound and xbow guys approach me out in the woods often and almost always are very interested in Traditional bows. I find most of them had no outside influence as you stated but the interest is in most. I just hand them my bow and point out a leaf 10 yards away and say "shoot that" At first they are like."what,here,now?" yeppers, right now! After a short and sweet lesson on doing so making sure NOT to complicate it, they end up hitting or getting darn close to the leaf and walk away with a smile and with confidence that they too can do this, don't be afraid to try! It is up to us to bring them in or at least give them a fair shot.

Some people think that they are bigger stuff when they buy equipment to guarantee that it is the easiest sway possible. other people don't get interested until there is a challenge in the game. How did Tina Turner put it? "We don't ever do anything easy."https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzQnPz6TpGc

I am glad I just shoot and hunt, and have fun with all of my friends...... I shoot a long bow, but like spinners for trout, better than the fly,,,,,, my best friend shoots a crossbow, and is one fine hunter, but he like the fly,,,,, my other buddies shoot compounds, and they shoot a lot,,,,, year round,,,,,

some of you guys, should just enjoy life and go hunt

I think we have to look at technology and make our own decisions..... I know a recurve shooter who will chastise anyone who does not shoot a stick,,,, the same guy has cameras set up in 3 states, where he watches his deer via computer and phone, to decide when and where he will hunt,,,,, give me a break.....

The weapon does not make the hunter, its the heart,,,,,,

Mel, stop hitting on Chris. Argumentative relationships belong on dating forums. But on the other hand, your statement concerning good trad hunters being better than average is absolutely correct. I have seen it myself many times.

This entire argument will end when bowhunting becomes as efficient as rifle hunting and the herd needs protecting. Therefore, bow seasons need to be reduced or eliminated. We have seen that in Northern NH. The season will then be a general season and only us stubborn diehards will venture forth with our trad bows. Judging from the number of people who advocate modern bows on this site, I would say that like what bowhunting has become, this forum is following suit.

The fact that many of these posters are sympathetic to the crossbow and technology is proof of the decline of real bowhunting.

You can sure tell who the real traditionalists are vs those who shoot a stickbow once in a while in their yard, or have one hanging in their garage. If the bow is not your go to weapon for hunting, you are not a bowhunter.

I go back a long time before compounds and a lot of hunters picked up a new bow, shot a few times and went archery hunting. Archery hunters wounded a lot of deer with poor shooting and taking long shots. When the compound came out those hunters became a lot better hunters, they could get sighted in and make kill shots with very little practice. With the crossbow those hunters are going to be able to kill deer out to 40 yards with no practice. Crossbows are here and are becoming more popular than compounds. You asked where we are heading. My last Archery catalog had three pages of crossbows, one page of compound bows and no traditional bows for adults.

I should say "go to weapon for archery hunting!" Lots of fringe internet traditionalists on Leatherwall who probably really hunt with compounds and crossbows.

Crossbows kill regularly at ranges much longer than 40 yards. In the west, 60 yards plus shots are very common with compound hunters, 100 yard plus kill shots are doable with scoped crossbows in proper conditions. I am not advocating long shots, just writing my personal observations.

"You can sure tell who the real traditionalists are vs those who shoot a stickbow once in a while in their yard, or have one hanging in their garage. If the bow is not your go to weapon for hunting, you are not a bowhunter."

It never ceases to amaze me how arrogant a statement like that one always sounds when it comes out of somebody else's mouth.

JMO, the only "Real Traditionalists" are the guys who use a recurve or a longbow/selfbow/etc simply because that's what works best for them. Which.... if you want to pick that apart.... means that FOR THEM, it's EASIER to fill a tag that way.

Funny thing is, those are also the guys who don't waste any time or effort beating their chests about how Traditional they are, or how they're somehow "better" Hunters than the next guy, no matter WHAT weapon he might choose.

They just get out and do what they do.

And while I'm poking people in the eye....

The so-called Traditionalists are complaining about the compounders and crossbowmen and their long shooting capabilities, but you know what???

Back In The Day when guys with names like Pope, Young, Hill, Bear.... Back when archery seasons were getting off the ground, they took shots at the same kinds of ranges that they accuse the compounders and Arbalists of shooting now. But somehow, it was Traditional then and it's Heresy now.

And you know what? Back when good NFAA archers fully expected to put all of their shots into the white at 70 and 80 yards, OF COURSE they were taking hunting shots at those kinds of ranges - because they expected to MAKE THEM. So JMO, what has changed the most is that it has become unfashionable for "trad" hunters to talk distance, while the high-tech people are more inclined to talk/brag about how long their shots are.... and EVERYBODY is less inclined to discuss their bad hits and losses.

A dozen or so years ago, I was FREQUENTLY found here giving Jim Fetrow four kinds of hell for talking about taking Elk at 65 yards or so and making it sound kind of routine... But you know, he said he never lost a wounded animal; and as I got to know him better over the years, I'm inclined to believe him. Larry Hatfield NEVER seems to talk about how far his shots are, and I don't blame him. I suspect che's quite capable of getting inside of 20 yards, but I recall him posting that when he goes out, he's got a job to do (Make Meat), and he doesn't see any point in making it any more difficult than it really is.

But what I'm getting at is that Bowhunting was NEVER considered a 20-yard-max sport... until popular opinion came around to believing that honest, 20-yard archers were few and far between.

So it seems to me that a lot of the whining and complaining about compounds and their "unfair" advantages is coming from people who profess to be Real Traditionalists and who like to talk about how Dedicated they are, but who simply haven't been dedicated ENOUGH (or maybe talented enough?) to learn to shoot as well as was probably pretty common, 50-60 years ago. Is it EASIER to become a consistent, 50-60 yard archer with a compound? Well, throw in a rangefinder and enough time to use it, and I'd say Yes; but what's up with professing to embrace "Trad" archery because it's so much more difficult... and then complain when it turns out that it actually IS???

Don't get me wrong... I don't think crossbows have any place on public land in an archery season unless the shooter is honestly disabled, and I don't think that optical sights (scopes, red-dots or laser beams) have any place, either (with perhaps another exception for disability, and under adequate oversight, of course). And I do think that a 65% limit on let-off is entirely fair.

But this wasn't a 17.2-yard sport until we somehow decided that we were 17-yard archers, and it rings a little hollow to me when "we" try to impose the limitations of a VOLUNTARY handicap on people who are not shooting any farther than the "heroes" of the sport used to do.

I don't understand the term compete with all the new stuff.

The so called new stuff has nothing to do with our bow hunting.

It is aimed at the new, lazy, careless, needs satifaction NOW! group.

I have my longbow and am carving a new one with the help of many great people on this site, I have my arrows that I cut and tuned to my bow and a quiver and glove, I don't want to leave out my Boxcall Hat.

How are these people competing, most of them couldn't draw a longbow in the poundage that we use and I guarantee that none of them could hit anything without a sight, mechanical release or let-off.

I use what I like and they use what they are conditioned to use, they can't outdo me for game, they just don't have the outdoor experience that most of us have.

If it came to a major power outage in this country we will be eating and these folks will starve.

It doesn't bother me what people use, just don't tell me what to use.

That is why I always shot flintlock, I don't have to worry about needing these little maufactured caps. I like the extra smoke also LOL!

GF X 2

"Hunting should not be a competition, but for many it has become ego driven. I believe that is why many promote APR's, "let em go, let em grow", have antlers scored in inches, promote TV, YouTube and print ads that clearly state how many record book animals have been taken or the B&C score, etc, etc etc. Sadly, that is what hunting has become..."

Indeed. "Inches of bone" have always made a certain % of men crazy in the head, and TV hunting shows have only promoted that and made it more mainstream than ever. Nowdays we have 8 year olds that think they have to kill a Booner to have a successful hunt, and their fathers are the ones promoting and paying for that. It's not a healthy mindset IMO.

I was soured on competitive fishing tournaments many years ago for the same reason. Our wildlife should not be a commodity that is bought and sold or used for bragging rights. That is an incredibly disrespectful attitude toward these creatures - and I'm ashamed of what "sport hunting" has become. It's no wonder it's so easy for so many people to be anti-hunting these days. They don't see hunters as respectful of the game they pursue.

I've been shooting 3-D range a couple times a week in the AMs with a wheelie who shoots lights out..cams, sights, no stab. We get along fine. He give me congrats for my good shots out to 40 yds, ignores my bad shots, and I'm amazed how well he shoots @ 60. Lots of fun.

I'd love to know why us silly humans are so fascinated with horns that protrude from the heads of wild animals. It defies logic really.

GF ...LOL... I agree. Aplaud! applaud! LOL

These topics really get silly. Here we are talking bad about folks that choose to make use of more modern and efficient weapon's to kill deer with. Yes I said "KILL" that's why I hunt, long story short, I'm "HUNTING" and when i'm hunting i strive to kill. Why sugar coat it, since when did killing become a taboo part of "hunting"?

So is it so hard to understand that guys choose more modern methods that enable them to more efficiently accomplish their goal?

Don't you guy's have internet?.. don't you have modern cell phones? don't you shop online?.. do you have a credit card?..don't you have a microwave, and every other modern appliance in your fridge?..Do you wear modern clothing , or do you still sew your own?..Do you drive a modern auto, or are you still horse and buggy? Exactly how traditional are you? It's ok to be totally modern , but you can't hunt like that?..LOL what sense does that make?

I can fully understand why you choose "traditional" bows to hunt with, I'm all for it , I promote and encourage it. what I do not understand is why you think someone else is less of a hunter if they don't?

I have always hunted with stickbows, and I dabbled in compounds for a few years in the 80's, but I never put down my stickbows.

I own a compound I enjoy shooting one, I'd like to kill another deer with one. But I have this nasty habit, especially when really concentrating to out of habit just release like I would a stickbow..LOL with a trigger release it gets kinda crazy..I have lost more arrows from doing that with a compound in short order than I have in years with a stickbow. Sometimes I miss the whole target! I NEVER miss the whole target with my stickbows NEVER!. Now when I'm shooting good yes I'm more accurate with my compound.

But when I go bow hunting, its hard for me to talk myself into using my compound simply because I am so used to and comfortable shooting a stickbow with a finger release. ....I do NOT! use one for the challenge. I use one because?...well that's mostly what I've always used, and it works well for me.

I'm looking forward to seeing some of you guys posts in the 2017 harvest thread.

Here is my final post for those who think I am an elitist....If you hunt with a bow and arrow, as defined by the P&Y club, you are a bowhunter.

If you hunt during the archery season with a crossbow, you are a crossbow hunter, not a bowhunter.

With that in mind, bowhunter numbers are in a rather steep decline.

its what you make of it. i see more selfbow and longbows being used now then 30 years ago. and a lot more wood arrows now then 30 years ago.

By the way...Join Compton's, a great bowhunting organization.

Trophy hunting and big money has done more to change our sport for the worse than technology ever could have. I've lost most of my hunting ground because of it. I don't believe things will ever return to the way they were. It sad but it's the way of things today. It's up to us to teach the younger one's what hunting really is all about. Its way more than big antlers.

The old days and 'old ways' are pretty much gone now that the WWII generation has passed. I love my country dearly. Todays Americans aren't the same as their grandparents. Our society is a far cry from 50 years ago. Old folks know this in spades.

I think like most trends,,,things will swing back toward more "authentic values" about sport hunting etc,, it can only go so far and so big, and then whats the point,, people will want to learn about hunting,, and real values,, not just how big the antlers are ...and the easiest way to get some,, there will be an awareness that the exess of sport hunting will bring on to itself,, and the old ways will become more valued,,,

Brad - YOU, sir, are quite the optimist!

If it turns out that you're dead wrong, well, there's only so much that we can do about it.... but I'd rather fail in the company of someone like you than stand around listening to the doom-sayers and end up helping to prove them right.

Guys, there is nothing to speculate about. All you have to do is get out of your deer stands and face reality.

There is a long well defined history and factual trending going back to the 1970's. This easily allows one to predict where bowhunting is headed, AND has already gone. Once again, all you have to do is face reality and review the facts, no speculation involved at all in the direction of bowhunting.

you could be right, but I think you are not taking into account that the young people will have a great say in whats gonna happen,,,, and they think alot differently and have diffent views,,, than most us old guys,,

Guess I'm not a real Traditionalist then, GF. I don't hunt with selfbows because they're what 'work best' for me. That's fine though, cuz I don't aspire to be one.

Limbwalker, I concur with you on today's sport/trophy hunting. It defies my logic as it relates to wild animals and nature as well... but I understand how their's gets that way.

good point...

No offense intended, JD - it's just that most of those professing to be Real Traditionalists seem to have a way of expecting some extra level of respect or esteem for choosing the gear that they do.... and you never gave me that impression...

Young men are certainly influenced by the glut of weaponry at big box stores, and the onslaught of scowling hunters using such weaponry to kick the critters @$$ lol.

Pold guys know hunting didn't USE to be that, but todays world is a couple generations removed from that simpler time here in America. Old folks are smart enough to sort things out for themselves. That's the big advantage of age that young folks know nothing about. Young are passionate and impressionable for sure. So was I those decades ago. Now, I know better. I do miss the way it used to be. No RrrRrRrRRRrr and no bam bam bam bam bam bam, bam bam bam POPPOPPOP Blam Blam blam. I'd be out today and not here if that wasn't the case. At least it is peaceful in this house.

Good post Shawn..at the end of the day most of the BS that gets posted here regarding this topic is nothing more than jealousy.

As an aside..why are there never post about the advancements in Trad bow tech??? I read all the time about how drawing/shooting a super-curve is as if it has let-off at anchor. Single strings can move forward but nothing else can?? ManY of you shoot sights right? A compound shot barebow is different how? An animal that was killed with a legal weapon that you didn't is different how from someone who killed the same animal with a selfbow? Horn Porn?? Lol..healthy herd.

Does any of this seem a little psychotic to anyone but me. I'll be brutally honest....the last thing I'm worried about is where bowhunting is heading and even less about how other hunters kill animals. What I'm am supremely concerned about is my treestand placement come October ??

At the local Hardees last Friday noon, a number of local bowhunters were there. The topic discussed, how can we get a crossbow permit? Which area chiropractor will sign the slip? How can we limit how many people are getting onto the public hunting areas. It is a sport, all sports have rules and limitations. If we are all such tough manly men and such great Americans, why are so many constantly looking for the best shortcut and the easiest way?

Bowhunting will continue, but we're not gonna like the changes.

Remember, all hunting is controlledc to manage the wildlife herds. Back when the bow was a low percentage weapon and accounted for a small percent of harvest, we were given longer seasons.

As the crossbow ("Accurate to 100 yards! Meet your new rifle!") ups the 'bow' take, I suspect the wildlife agencies will start to push for *shorter* bow seasons. Especially if they start taking heat from gun-only hunters, who are still the great majority of all hunters.

In my part of indiana it is not being able to step foot on private ground. In my thirty years of b owhunting I've seen all my ground I hunted devided off and sold. Houses built etc.....leasing is a really big thing now, and on firefighter pay, it's not an option for me. I've become basically relegated to state ground. I'm consistently killing a buck every year, but don't see any deer that are jaw dropping. I would love for things to be like they were in the past to some degree. It would be nice to shoot a decent six pointer without hearing people say why didn't you let him grow? Did you have any bigger on camera? Etc etc..I take great satisfaction harvesting any Deer with my longbow. I know how much I had to practice. How much I earned it. That's part of the fun. People just want to go out and shoot a monster deer. It's not like it used to be. Being with your friends and family hunting was what it was all about. I don't even hunt with anybody anymore. Now I'm on camera a dozen times walking across a woodlot....lol

DanaC is dead on. I have posted the same thing in the past. Primitive weapon seasons were allowed because of their low impact on the herd. As I have stated before, I was one of those who pushed for a muzzleloader season in NH. We have watched the modern inlines reduce that season from a 10 day either/or season to bucks only. Season-long baiting became popular when the compound craze hit. That is now reduced to one month. We tried to eliminate baiting totally, but instead, they shortened our season up here. You guys that live in high deer density areas will eventually see your seasons shortened as tech takes over I predict. In NH, you can use a crossbow if you are 68 and over, and getting a doctor's note is easy. Crossbows are outselling compounds up here 2 to 1 at the big sporting goods store up here. There is bowhunting's future. I am the only guy that hunts with a longbow up here, on the ground, with no bait. They think I am crazy. My answer is how I get a deer matters more to me than if I get a deer. You put me on a track with a rifle and I can guarantee a dead buck. No brag, just a fact. Put a longbow in my hand, and I will see him, but to get a shot could take a whole season or several. That's what a true primitive season entails, but I love it. Not too many of us guys left.

I learned hunting, fishing and trapping and most of what I use now, in the fifties and sixties. I haven't seen many improvements (at least for me)after that. Understanding the quarry you're after and their habits, reading sign, tracking, patience, and determination. Not how far you can shoot or cast is what hunting is all about. I get a kick out of all the crap they peddle now for bowhunters! Watch the wind and stand more than you move has always been the mark of a successful hunter,nothing new here. I hunt like it still is 1962 or earlier. Who cares what others think! My freezer stays full. I know many of you are the same! Good hunting as long as we live.

Some of you say trophy hunting hasn't hurt us that much but I still believe it has at least here in the midwest. When I first started bowhunting 35yrs ago you were seldom refused permission to hunt a place. Now with wealthy people buying land just to hunt and all the leasing its hard to find a place. People aren't leasing and buying properties to shoot small bucks and does. They're hoping for a wall hanger. Most blue collar working class people can't afford to purchase land here just for hunting. Some states have a lot of public ground and others don't. These young people starting out need places to hunt and good mentors. Its up to us. All we can do is do the best we can with what we have.

yes tree stand placement is a priority,,

How soon we forget....

A few years ago, during our fight against profuse, potentially game changing technology, we were made aware of the line of distinction that separated weapons that offered hunter opportunity with minimal affect on the resource from weapons that would HAVE to be viewed as management tools by their effect on the resource during the same time frame and tag allotments. They balked at us. Here we are. I'm no management tool by any stretch of the imagination. I don't want my hunting affected by those who are.

I hear you bloodtrailin

I look at it a bit different than many of you. I do not see the type of weapon being the culprit.

What I see is people are getting farther and farther away from good old fashioned earthy know how.

If everybody that toted a crossbow was a experienced deer killing machine.

Our game departments would have to regulate them.

But despite all the internet talk, there are few hunters overall that have the capability to have drastic impacts on game numbers.

In my state of PA if all the licensed hunters here were deer killing machines, there wouldn't be any deer left.

But it isn't that way.

Shade you are thinking about only one state, and one species of animal.

Most species, and in many states, such as elk, sheep, antelope, mountain goats, bears, turkeys, mountain lions etc are already on a restricted drawings and quota seasons in many areas, or no season at all....therefore harvest numbers are very important and even one successful hunter is a game changer. In fact with quota seasons when harvest numbers are met, the season actually closes.

It is important when making generalizations to look beyond your county and state and to look at the impact on all species and opportunity for hunters. Don't just a have a "my state and deer" mentality.

By the way, scoped crossbows are absolutely a superior archery weapon for spot and stalk species such as western elk, mule deer and antelope. They are a serious game changer amongst general season archery hunters in these somewhat open spot and stalk regions. Montana so far has resisted them for this reason.

In states where bear and/or deer baiting is legal, scoped crossbows offer a very distinct advantage when the hunter can sit in dim light 45 yards from the bait, rather than the historic 20-25 yards. Scoped crossbows do and will continue to increase hunter success, and therefore lead to increased pressure and reduced opportunity.

I have been enthralled with archery since I was 10. At 61 I'm still a nut when it comes to anything that has two limbs and a string. I started with a recurve, learned to tune arrows, played a little bit with knapping flint( came in handy later on with the flintlocks) learned to build strings from b-50. I learned to chop feathers and build arrows from cedar and aluminum. I got lucky a few times and took deer with the old thunderbird. Then came compounds I learned to set timing, cam lean through yoke tuning, set up drop away rests and learned about carbon shafts. Got lucky a few times and took some deer. Now there are crossbows, still in the learning curve with these. Totally different animal but fun as is everything else. My point, archery is alive and kicking, and just like a huge buffet you pick what you want and enjoy with everyone there. One thing I have learned, I will not bury my head in the sand and allow ego to rob a learning experience from me because I only want to view life from the rear view mirror. To totally understand something you must become a part of it to make a real decision.

I looked all through this thread to find someone yelling "GET OFF MY LAWN...!" LOL Guess I missed it.

Sounds like a bunch of grumpy old men b!tchin$ about young people. Now there's something new. ha, ha.

Every generation thinks they are better than the next I suppose. I'm sure the WWII "greatest" generation got crap from their parents too, probably going on about how THEY never had electricity, or running water, or a telephone or a washing machine and couldn't understand why those young whipper snappers born during the depression needed such things anyway. ha, ha, ha.

Human nature I guess.

Frankly, as the parent of three Millennials, I have a lot of hope for the future. My kids are just plain better people than me and my generation. They are kinder, more generous, more intelligent, and yes, have a great sense of history and nostalgia too. In fact, I see more Millennials who are interested in "traditional" ways than I ever did those of my generation.

People are going to find whatever they seek. If you want to find fault in the new generations, you will. If you want to find reasons for hope, you will.

Now you know where bowhunting is headed!

Archery is alive and will be here as long as there are animals to be hunted. People hunt for different reasons and as seasoned respectful hunters we need to work on making sure people hunt for good reasons. The most important part of bow hunting is taking ethical shots. There will be people who do this with whatever gear they have and people who don't; regardless of age or experience. I personally don't care if you bait, know the woods or just go out to sit and enjoy the sounds, just make sure you don't wing a deer. We need to get away from seeing how far we can hit something. The longest shot I have taken was 130 yards and that was with .270 :) With a compound I have never shot past 25 yards and with traditional gear I have never shot past 20 yards and most within 15 yards.

I'm noy here to pass judgment on anyone, but sometimes I get the feeling that many think just because a compound or crossbow is a easier weapon to use (and it is) that somehow it's almost a guarantee to success.

It would be nice to see some real world unbiased statistics as far as success ratios.

Even with a rifle the average success rate is much lower overall than many think. One thing I will say is among the success percentages, you will find there are some individuals that run MUCH! higher percentages than the overall average.

One thing you folks need to remember is YOU choose your weapon within the boundaries of the law. YOU choose to hunt the hard way, YOU choose your range limitations. YOU make the choice.

As far as "where is bowhunting headed"? YOU decide for YOURSELF.

I choose traditional bowhunting because that's what "I" choose.

"It would be nice to see some real world unbiased statistics as far as success ratios."

CT has been tracking this - I'll see if they have released any data yet. Those numbers will be skewed, though, by the fact that so much of our Harvest occurs on private land.

The thing to remember about success rates in firearms seasons is that those seasons are short and very high on pressure, and success rates are usually comparable to bow season; give riflemen a solid month of Bowhunting-level pressure and let's see what happens.

I just got done with my first elk hunt. It was guided by two great guys from Utah. One afternoon was soured by storms on and off. We took out our longbows and recurves and convicted the two to shoot stumps with us around camp. The glow in their eyes, two guys who shoot wheels, was awesome! They kept saying "one more round..." Again and again.

I think trad will always ignite something inside real hunters. We just need to keep igniting and untiring those flames. Who knows, what might start if enough get going.

Really happy to be helping the guide that I was with when I shot my first cow elk find his first trad bow after the experience. Hope to share my story and picture here soon.

I think i conveyed a good message as to what is wrong today. Switch over to big game board & see crossbow meeting thread.

Like I have stated many, many times.......real bowhunting as defined by the P&Y Club, and it's associated culture, is in a very rapid decline.

A wise man once told me. "Life is about change, nothing ever stays the same. Acceptance of change is harder than change itself." I continue the trad way because it's what I love.

Its heading to the grave with all of us true bowhunters (trad and cp) dying off and Xgunners taking over. Sorry to sound defeatist and negative but I'm telling it like I see it. I don't even see cps in sports stores now, let alone trad stuff, just xguns. Face it, we are a tiny minority, just go to any 3d shoot not trad specific. Pathetic...not the gun itself, but where and when it is allowed. It has no place during ANY bow season. Allowing them is dooming our sport. Time to speak out.

If you want to see 'traditional' bow hunting continue to be a thing, and if you want to make sure there are stickbows around for your kids and their kids, then don't just sit back complaining about technology. That doesn't help. Do something about it - teach a kid how to hunt using their brains and their skills. I have 6 kids, 5 of them girls. I have made or will make every one of my kids their own bow, which they themselves had a hand in making. My littlest girl asks me every time I pick up my bow "when you going to make me one daddy?" I tell her "when your big enough to draw one and not hurt yourself or someone else" (she is 5, and tiny ;)).

Don't contribute to the negativity, do something positive to move the sport in a way you want it to go. And don't bash folks, that doesn't help either. Just hunt your hunt and teach young ones a skill they can pass on to their kids. And, enjoy your time on this here rock, won't last forever.

The Sun Will come up Tomorrow...4finger

Yup, agree, but any movement starts with an announcement. You have to increase the awareness first before you can get action on it. The American Revolution didn't happen before Revere made his famous ride.

The year the Bear Whitetail Hunter compound came out was the big jump here. I know, they were a rattle can piece of crap, but everyone that never had the balls to try bowhunting before got one and immediately, we had a bunch of pushy know it alls running over us. Soon, every landowner had a relative that had a compound, everyone of the newcomers declared themselves to be superior experts. The 50% more power anyone could do it advertising had them all fooled. Now days, around here at least, it is possible to get a compound crossbow pass by claiming health issues, stiff neck, sore finger, slept wrong on your shoulder one night, hemorrhoid, you name it, it can be an excuse to get a crossbow permit. Years back there was one older guy using one, he could no longer manage his recurve. He would even ask to have someone cocked his recurve crossbow. He said he could do it, but it was painful for him. He did not walk a around with a bolt in it. Now there are tough guys with them, locked and loaded manly men. They remind me of the first duffy guys strutting their crap with the cheap Bear Whitetail Hunters, thinking they are all powerful. Muzzleloaders are no longer muzzleloaders, those are single shot high powered rifles and they have no business being in crowded woods during the October bow season.

In the 50's the rifle hunters wanted bowhunters to go away, and it took perseverance, not negativity to keep it going. The terms "fester sticks" had to be overcome with education and our pioneers need to be credited with doing just that. The type of weapons we use will never kill hunting, but apathy and negativity will. History pretty much shows our evolution, and even with the so-called evil crossbow, and 90% let-off compounds, our sport will be as strong as we want to keep it.

Technology, other than archery related is the greatest threat to all sports which rely on continuing membership to live on. I suspect we will reap what we sow, and maybe best to look at what you're/we're doing to preserve the sport as a whole...it's not just about traditional archery. And, the more you drive down a sister sport, the more you dig our own holes.

I was at an archery shop yesterday and a couple and their son were in buying some arrows. The husband used to shoot long ago he said and his wife and kid were taking it up. All three were buying arrows for their new recurve bows. Ive been shooting a compound for 28 years and just got back into shooting a recurve last year. I could care less about the technology. In fact technology is what drove me to target panic. I can shoot my recurve with no target panic but not my compound. Im actually now enjoying shooting again thanks to the simple recurve.

You think about it. when I was young in the 60s and started bow hunting it was not the old way. I had a new take down two piece recurve Ben Person with them horn bent limbs and them all-full aluminum arrows with the fake colored feathers. all the Longbow and i mean LONGBOW guys with there wood arrows would laugh at me and tell me that was not a real bow.

Tradmt, im not quite sure technology has to do with it. It depends on individual preference. Their are people who love the old classic cars with no technology and others want the newest. One problem is when someone walks into a bowshop they dont see trad bows they see compounds and crossbows now. In all honesty the technology on a compound is really not that significant. In my neck of the woods just seeing a deer is the real challenge.

Time stands still for no one. We can not revisit the pass. The future belongs to our youth. Enjoy the time you have left the youth will take care of archery just like we did and our forefathers before us.

tradmt 1st I was making a point in my time as a beginner and starting out the recurve was the modern bow. not the old way. just like the compound is know. and the compound has made archery so big we will never be without a bow season to much money to lose for the state with permits and taxes off hunting supplies. it the modern hunting of today. just like your new truck or central air and running water and climbing tree stands ,camo, hunting blinds, trail cameras the modern way

I wonder if the natives are looking at our fiberglass limbs, metal risers, carbon arrows, and colorful strings and shaking their heads. To them that is technology.

I was just rubbing my stiff neck and I am petty sure that I just permanently wrecked my shoulder. How could this happen to me? Even though I am afraid that I will be forced in going to crossbows, I will do it in a traditional archers way.

Hunting in our state is declining.

Been at the national archers buyers association this week looking new items. Horizontal bows are prominent-scopes and all. Samick has a beautiful metal riser recurve that shoots so sweet. You can now get a game camera with sound to your cell phone. Some fixed blade, but many mechanical mechanical broadheads. New manufacturers of compounds that approach 330 FPS. New breed of targets that hold up to repeated hits from compounds and horizontal bows. Probably last us twice as long. Not really new, but your choice of arrows will expand. Jerry from Rose City was not there to talk over how good cedar smells. No real purveyors of wood arrows were there. Materially that is what is on the horizon. Archery as we know and love it does not have to follow that path, as long as we choose not to. Yeah, opportunity to harvest at our chosen ranges might be more difficult as deer shooters launch arrow-like projectiles at 100+yards, but it ain’t us. People who have never shot anything but a mechanical bow generally hold us in regard. Many will never try a trad bow, but some will. If they see you shoot consistently well and you keep a respectful attitude towards them, they may accept the challenge.

Wonder how much of the population in percentage of hunters used a bow in 1946 compared to the population percentage now?

What concerns me is vis-a-vis the future of bowhunting, or hunting in general is this:

http://www.virology.ws/2015/03/11/is-chronic-wasting-disease-a-threat-to-humans/

If the prions that cause this type of encephalopathy, can somehow cross the specie barrier...well,,, I don't need to tell you what that will mean for the future of hunting.

A place to bowhunt.

New York did not have a separate archery season before 1948, even though it was legal to use a longbow in the regular deer season since 1929. bvd

The natives used rifles and horses when they became available. They had neither before white man came. After that, 'they' did not shun technology for the sake of tradition. Neither do 'we'. Is there an analogy in the making? Is bowhunting as we know it going the way of the 1800s? I believe it will. I pray it won't, but eventually, the art of crafting real wood bows like many of yoh guys do now will be about as common as an original First Nation powwow. An enactment as it is now. Sad, but IMO, its coming. Its up to us to delay the enevitable. Teach kids to build a bow, knap heads, all the original things we do. Problem is, do the kids wanna learn it? Again, I am not trying to be negative, just realistic. History does repeat itself. I'm glad I'mhere to live it now...I don't have kids. Not sure if that's good or bad.

A re-enactment...like blacksmithing, glass blowing, spinning flax, all that stuff. Id like to see it (traditional bow making and hunting) live forever, but since I won't be on this earth forever, and none of us will, its hp to us,to pass it on down through the generations. Realistically speaking, most 'traditions' get lost with advancements in technology and fade away eventually. How many Model As do you see on the road? Once, there wers 1000s, and it was the normal of life for many. See where I'm going with this? That is where (trad) bowhunting is heading... Its up to us to keep it alive. Pls don't shokt the messenger, I am learning to DO, not just say. That's a start. Working on getting a couple selfbows made. Re enactments... :)

Wow! Lots of negativity.

Bowhunting is awesome! In my 30+ years of exclusively hunting with a recurve, I've seen the sport increase tremendously with the advancements made with compound bows. My recurve was a rarity but that was one of the reasons I took to it. Over the last 10 years or more, I have seen a big resurgence in traditional hunting. Now it seems like more people bowhunt than not, a big change from my early days. To me, that's a GREAT thing! It still takes considerable skill to hunt with either a compound or recurve, just more with the latter.

Bowhunting used to be about hunting the hard way, and the associated culture. Today these concepts are largely already gone.

Join Comptons today and associate with the small minority who still exist. The last stronghold of true bowhunters.

Not negativity just facts.,license sales are down each year in our state. But I continue to hunt with my recurve.

Hunting has been declining for decades. Of that demographic, the percentage of those hunting with bows has been INCREASING. The popularity of bowhunting has been the saving grace to hunting in the US. No question compound bows have been responsible for encouraging more hunters to take up bowhunting. Why disparage it?

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