Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


brace hgt & accuracy

Messages posted to thread:
jk 13-Sep-17
fdp 13-Sep-17
Frisky 13-Sep-17
kginrick 13-Sep-17
GF 13-Sep-17
Viper 13-Sep-17
Flyfish 13-Sep-17
GF 14-Sep-17
Nordland 14-Sep-17
2 bears 14-Sep-17
Pintail 14-Sep-17
Shifty 14-Sep-17
gluetrap 14-Sep-17
Viper 14-Sep-17
jk 14-Sep-17
Fisher Cat 14-Sep-17
Viper 14-Sep-17
jk 14-Sep-17
ny yankee 14-Sep-17
GF 14-Sep-17
bradsmith2010santafe 14-Sep-17
Viper 14-Sep-17
Renewed Archer 14-Sep-17
2 bears 14-Sep-17
jk 14-Sep-17
Shifty 14-Sep-17
bradsmith2010santafe 14-Sep-17
dean 14-Sep-17
jk 14-Sep-17
2 bears 14-Sep-17
Osr144 18-Sep-17
jk 18-Sep-17
Osr144 18-Sep-17
From: jk
Date: 13-Sep-17




Shooting a 60" 53# recurve, I'm getting inches tighter groups at 30yds with 8" than 7" brace height (same noise as far as I can tell).

Is it logical that high brace height could be more accurate (in general or with certain bows), or is this experience just accidental?

From: fdp
Date: 13-Sep-17




It's neither logical nor illogical. That being said, there was a theory may years ago that a higher brace height decreased "string time" therefore making the arrow less susceptible to archer error. Bow torque and so on.

Personally I thing it has more to do with where the bow shoots best for you.

From: Frisky
Date: 13-Sep-17




Just minutes before seeing this thread, I was adjusting the brace height on my Drake. The bow likes 7.5". It also does fine at 7.2" but is terrible at 6.5"! Less than an inch in brace height makes a HUGE difference with that bow! With my Hoyt Pro Medalist, a 7" brace height makes the bow almost unshootable. It's LOUD and shocky to boot. I raised the BH to between just over 8.5" and 9" and it turned into a shooter! Brace height can be very important in how a bow performs. On the other hand, my Deathmaster shoots great at ever BH I've tried. Another thing to be aware of is nock tightness, though Viper disagrees with me. Tight nocks spray my arrows all over the place. I open the nock ears up and the arrows group. It might have something to do with how I shoot.

Joe

From: kginrick
Date: 13-Sep-17




Bows tend to be more forgiving with higher brace heights in the compound world . Not necessarily more accurate just easier to be accurate with,if that even makes sense.

From: GF
Date: 13-Sep-17




"Is it logical that high brace height could be more accurate (in general or with certain bows), or is this experience just accidental?"

I can imagine a whole bunch of reasons why a higher brace might be working better for you with this set-up, but they are all dependent on something unique to YOUR set-up and the way that YOU shoot it.

So maybe the "logical" conclusion is that each bow is a law unto itself and there's not much profit in trying to generalize?

That said, it does seem that target bows are designed to be shot at a higher brace than many hunters seem to prefer. Seems like it might have to do with the direction in which the limbs are traveling when they slam into the end(s) of the string, and whether the arrow can get off of the string before all of that violence and mayhem has a chance to travel down to the nock.

From: Viper
Date: 13-Sep-17




jk -

That's actually a good question.

A taller brace height results in a shorter string time, and that make negate some follow-through errors. (Not likely)

Changing the brace height may bring your bow into it efficiency range. (Less likely)

It will also allow for a stiffer arrow to tune. That "may" be of some benefit. (Assuming you tuned your arrows correctly and form is decent)

If you wear an arm guard, a taller brace height may reduce contact. (Could be a issue, if you get frequent slaps)

OR, your arrows were too stiff to begin with and the taller brace height compensated. (Most likely)

OR - just dumb luck - VERY likely ;) )

I look at it a little differently, I want the "best" brace height for a given bow AND arrow combination, and not the highest or lowest. That's just a tuning thingy.

Viper out.

From: Flyfish
Date: 13-Sep-17




Thanks Viper. Solid.

From: GF
Date: 14-Sep-17




Yup. He covered about all the bases I had imagined...

I wonder if the OP has tried any bare-shafting at each height? Slow-mo analysis could be telling!

From: Nordland
Date: 14-Sep-17

Nordland's embedded Photo



Just to confirm Vipers explanation.

Michael

From: 2 bears
Date: 14-Sep-17




Very good diagram. Brace height affects spine it can't help but affect accuracy to a degree,or you could shoot any spine. Tune brace height first to lowest vibration/noise. Then tune arrows to bow. For a final, fine tune, you can make slight adjustments to brace to tighten groups. Truth is very few archers are accurate enough to see the difference in fine tuning. If broadheads,field points,and field points with bare shaft are all grouping together, with in the individual archers capability,that is as good as it gets. Hope that clarifies instead of farther muddying the waters.>>>-----> Ken

From: Pintail
Date: 14-Sep-17




One other thing comes into play here as well, how is the riser cut on your particular bow? cut to center? slightly past center? I see that diagram leaning more towards a English style longbow then a recurve? Your thoughts?

From: Shifty
Date: 14-Sep-17




Every bow has a sweet brace height to tune if you go higher or lower than the sweet spot it will not shoot as well.

From: gluetrap
Date: 14-Sep-17




the diagram is exaggerated to make the changes obvious to the viewer. should apply to any bow..ron

From: Viper
Date: 14-Sep-17




Shifty -

It has less to do with the bow, and more to do with the bow/arrow (and shooter) combination. Change arrows, and the "sweet spot" will change.

Humm, that picture seems to be making the rounds...

Viper out.

From: jk
Date: 14-Sep-17




Valuable thoughts.

String time would logically be the same with higher and lower brace heights.

Amount of time the arrow spends in contact with the rest/shelf seems a more likely factor.

My guess at the moment: More time on shelf with higher brace height which may neutralize my inevitable RELEASE differences (tab)...

... less time on shelf with lower brace height would make flight more dependent on string variables (releases) and less on bow.

"sweet spot" or "efficiency" answers don't seem to refer to anything defined...they're just words.

30" GT 600 trads with 100gr field points.

60" 53# Groves Spitfire Magnum , which was a challenge for me with lower brace height ... the higher brace height seems to have answered that (consistently...not just luck). B50, center shot, no plate, 3/8" rawhide strip across radius-ed shelf.

Before increasing to 8" I was shooting it @ around 7" due to common folklore that lower bh gave more velocity (velocity is the least of this bow's challenges).

From: Fisher Cat
Date: 14-Sep-17




Whatever the reason, I have noticed brace height can make a significant difference in accuracy. A bow I had been shooting well recently started shooting worse. Initially, I attributed it to my shooting, but after checking the brace height, I found the string had stretched, lowering the brace height about 3/8". After twisting it up to the old brace height, it shoots well again.

As for nock tightness, I've never really noticed much difference, except that very loose nocks become a bit distracting for me (causing me to worry about accidental dry fires). A good fitting nock is one less thing you have to be aware of... - John

From: Viper
Date: 14-Sep-17




jk -

"Amount of time the arrow spends in contact with the rest/shelf seems a more likely factor. "

Nope. The arrow should be off the shelf within about 2" of travel, if the rig is anywhere close to being tuned.

Viper out.

From: jk
Date: 14-Sep-17




Viper...yes... arrow "should" be off the shelf quickly (2" according to purported high-speed film gospel) HOWEVER I don't think "we" always buy that on LW.

If we did buy that we wouldn't use anything more than a bump on the shelf (like my 3/8" leather strip)...or a rest. Not sealskin, not velcro, not bearhair etc.

I think "we" generally accept that there's superior accuracy from rest Vs shelf: has something to do with time on shelf...?

From: ny yankee
Date: 14-Sep-17




Simple, you just discovered what your bow likes best. Go with that.

From: GF
Date: 14-Sep-17




"String time would logically be the same with higher and lower brace heights."

How do you figure?

I'm thinking it through, trying to keep an open mind, and I just can't see how a shorter bowstring under higher tension doesn't straighten out faster....

From: bradsmith2010santafe
Date: 14-Sep-17




yes that is possible,,

From: Viper
Date: 14-Sep-17




jk -

We/LW folks can "buy into" whatever you/they like.

Facts are still facts and while the 2" thing may be small, I didn't say it wasn't a critical part of the shot and the results. Those 2" bear the brunt of any errors we make. Just commenting that time on shelf shouldn't be a factor when talking about brace height - unless the arrow was way over spine.

Viper out.

From: Renewed Archer
Date: 14-Sep-17




My own view is that bows can have 2 or 3 optimal brace heights, even with arrows of the right spine. If you think of the bow as a stringed instrument it would be like it having different octaves at different heights. I prefer a higher brace height on most of my bows than is recommended, e.g., 8.5" for a 60" bow, 9" for a 64" bow and 9.5" for a 66" bow. But they can shoot equally well at an inch or so lower. In other words I don't think there is just one optimal brace height per bow, regardless of one's shooting style, form or arrows. Try different heights until you find the one you like the best.

From: 2 bears
Date: 14-Sep-17




Arrow rest have less contact point,that is also why we put a bump under the rug and strike plate to minimize arrow contact. Less contact less drag,less influence on the arrow.Most rests have a certain amount of spring,as plungers have a spring. That is to get clear of the shaft. Don't think it has any thing to do with time but to minimize contact. As Viper said you can buy into any thing you want. It doesn't change things. Just minimize contact and keep shooting. >>>-----> Ken

From: jk
Date: 14-Sep-17




Ken...that "bump" is the entire functioning rest unless something's dragging-on and wearing more of it. In other words, the bump is the entire rest except for the non-functional draggy part. IMO

Minimizing contact MEANS minimizing contact over time. If time wasn't involved the bump or rest wouldn't be involved. Wouldn't even exist. That's fundamental rule of Science Fiction :-)

GF, I'm sure you're right that "shorter bowstring straightens out faster" ...which would mean that a higher BH would straighten out faster. Not sure that's what's going on, but might be significant.

Viper...my BH experience is with same arrows...hard to imagine that 30" 600s could be over-spined at either BH on a fast 53# Recurve.

From: Shifty
Date: 14-Sep-17




Right Viper you just said it better than i did,i left out a couple details.

From: bradsmith2010santafe
Date: 14-Sep-17




you can make it complicated if you want,, but,,, if the arrow is shooting great,, the brace is bout right,,:) here are some counter intuitive things bout brace,, the lower brace will lower poundage,, but shoot harder,, raising the brace one inch ,,,,, strains the limbs like drawing the bow 2 inches more,, wood bow guys know this stuff,, cause a too high brace can ruin a bow,,

fiberglass can take a high brace were a wood bow wont,,without overstraining the wood,, rock on with twisting the string how ever it suits you,,,,:)

From: dean
Date: 14-Sep-17




On some bows changing to a higher brace makes more difference in cast than others. John Schulz said that going to an overly tall brace could greatly reduce the cast with his bows. Out of curiosity I tested one my Schulz bows with a brace a bit over his recommendation and the bow did shoot less distance, I do not know what the fps was, no chrono. However, at the lowest possible brace I had to down one aluminum spine and go up 15 grains in point weight to get good arrow flight. At one shoot Byron said something like, if in doubt go to a brace that is closer to the high end for R/D bows. They were talking about how a lighter spined shaft would not benefit from a low brace or be bothered as much by a high brace than with a slightly stiff arrow being bothered by the low brace and absolutely needing the high brace. For myself, I find that wood arrows tend to be a little more forgiving of brace height variances than carbon or aluminum with non-center shot longbows.

From: jk
Date: 14-Sep-17




fwiw, I'm not trying to make this complicated: I was astounded by improved accuracy going from 7" to 8"..details of my setup above.

I think it's worthwhile to talk about methods of improving accuracy, even though those methods may be entirely subjective and personal.

I have always been somewhat scientific and analytic...other kinds of guys are into "what the bow wants" and other equally mystic and anthropomorphic stuff :-)

wow...that's the first time I ever wrote "anthropomorphic" :-)

From: 2 bears
Date: 14-Sep-17




It is just semantics but my rug rests cover the entire shelf. The bump just gives less contact. The side plates are larger too but they get the little bump. Most all arrow rests are radius- ed,crowned,or just small to minimize contact. They usually have a little spring or give to them,to get clear of the arrow. Really don't matter what we call it. It works. Min. contact,correct brace height,tuned rig, = accuracy. Keep um flying.>>>----> Ken

From: Osr144
Date: 18-Sep-17




It's just a sweet spot thing and it works with well tuned arrows.My York has a real high brace height 9 1/2" but that's what works best for that bow arrow combination.A friend of mine has the same model bow and he shoots similar arrows but his brace height is 1" less and his bow shoots good.Some of my other bows shoot A 7 1/2" or 8 and are fine.i have not got a clue why but I just play around or tune each bow as required.As long as I get the desired results it doesn't matter.Why so much drama ?It's just how it is.Lots of folk have valid points but it's as simple as what works the best.I only tune my gear 90% perfect.I reckon any experienced archer should be able to visually hold off a bit to compensate.Tuning is a big pain in the ass.I would rather spend my time shooting and not tuning too much.I ain't going to make the Olympic team but I sill enjoy my self.When I was young I tuned bows and arrows about 99% perfect.Too old for that stuff these days.Just to confuse you folk one older bow I have shows no real brace height preference .Shoots good at any height high or low.Go figure? OSR

From: jk
Date: 18-Sep-17




Small comment: There's a difference between "shoots good" and "shoots a lot better than good."

From: Osr144
Date: 18-Sep-17




Why what's better than good.?I always get more than expectable accuracy for me.What lets me down is me but if I do my part my equipment is up to it.If you like tuning gear to the highest possible degree by all means go for it.If it ain't broke I don't try to fix it.If it's good than it's good because the other alternative is bad.Hey just enjoy yourself anyway you choose now that's good Yeah OSR





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