OK....here goes. And forgive me...I just got a job teaching at a University part time so my teacher brain has been activated.

Contrary to popular belief, every bow is NOT different. They just make a different combination of sounds that can add up to a 'noisy bow', or cancel each other out for a 'quiet bow'. It is easily manipulated.

If you don't want to know, just measure between the contact points, put a silencer 1/4 of the way down and another 1/3 of the way up. Adjust brace height until it is quiet

NOW..... For you guys that have a guitar or any stringed instrument laying around....you might know about "Harmonics". Harmonics are where you can touch a string and pluck it with the other hand and produce a pure higher note (without pushing the string down against a fret).

This is the same with any length string made of any material or any thickness. As long as it vibrates, it will follow these rules.

Measure the distance between the contact points on your guitar. Divide that in half and look where you are on the string....the "Double Dots" one octave up.

Divide that distance in half again and lightly touch the string while plucking. You'll get the next octave up.

Now divide in Thirds and you'll here a different set of harmonics at those spots as well.

There are other harmonics, but these are the main ones.

NOW if that wasn't enough, hold your bow by the string letting the riser hang down. Tap on the riser with your thumb until you find the main pitch that it produces. Now hold the riser and tap the limbs. They have their own pitch. Some times the two limbs make the same note. Now hold your riser and pluck the string like a harp and listen to that note.

The pitch that your string produces (even with silencers) can cause your riser and/or limbs to vibrate sympathetically. Certain series of pitches will cause that more than others.

Sympathetic vibration is why your guitar sounds louder on certain notes. The string causes the body of the guitar to vibrate more.

As you change your brace height on your bow, the string note changes. The limbs notes change less and the riser will pretty much stay the same.

SO finding the least complimentary notes between the string/riser/limbs and then silencing the string at the main harmonic 'nodes' will give the quietest bow.

I need a drink

Ah,,,,,,,,um,,,,,,,im a garage band guitarist,,,harmonics are off 12th,7th and 5th fret I know the 7 chords ya need to be a rock star and 3 petatonic scales Sooooo,,,,i start 6" down from the string loops and adjust till shes quitest ; ) Kinda garage band archery

It's interesting to learn the science behind things we experience or observe. I guess I'm sort of a geek at times. So my question is do I look for the quietest brace height before or after I put silencers on? I've read threads that recommend finding the quietest brace height and then putting silencers on. From what I've read it appears I want to adjust the brace after I put silencers on. Or is it a series of adjustments going back and forth with the brace and silencer position? Please respond before you have that drink. :)

Was diehard 1/4's and 1/3's, tried 2/10 and 3/10 based on a tip in another thread. Noticeable improvement in silence and felt vibration in my Montana.

Test, tinker and tweak until you find what works best for you.

Cat sailor, The noise difference with brace height will be more obvious without string silencers. But I often put silencers on and it me 'quiet enough' and I just go shoot.

Snow, There is a strong harmonic at 2/10 but not at 3/10. But realize that 3/10=.3 and 1/3 =.333333. You're just short of the right spot.

If you did 2/10 and 1/3 it would be better. Just ask Pythagoras

Dude,

Left my 2/10 (1/5) up top and slid my 3/10 up to 1/3 on the bottom limb: even better! Pythagoras was indeed a smart cat...

For whatever reason, the 1/5 top and 1/4 bottom was twangier than 1/5 top and 3/10 bottom. Not sure if 3 under or tiller is involved.

JSD I am practically tone deaf. I will just stick to 1/4 and 1/3 because I can't hit a lick with any musical instrument. No idea what note my bows play but they seem pretty quiet. Thanks though that is interesting. It was probably you that I got the 1/4 and 1/3 from to start with. >>>>-----> Ken

Placed closer to the center serving the slower the stringer travels and the further away has the opposite affect. That's why I like to use cat whiskers you can adjust them for minute tuning.

All that scientific stuff just trying to get my longbow a little quieter makes my hair hurt. My bows are pretty darn quiet without anything on the string. I add fur or yarn as much because I like the look as anything else. When I first put anything on my strings I tried moving it up and down looking for the quietest spot. I can't honestly say I saw a huge difference in noise or vibration as I moved the silencers around. YMMV.

Maybe if I shot recurves I would be more aware of noise and vibration. I know my Olympic target recurve is noisy but I don't care about that.

Cool, I'll give it a try. Thanks, make it a great year!

Flyguy,

That is true, but if you use math you won't need to fine tune. 1/4 and 1/5 would keep you closer to the ends and still be in meaningful spots.

With the silencers in the right spots, they can be very small. I would bet I lose more fps due to inconsistent finger pressure at anchor than I do to the yarn

Lol, I use the scientific method. My top catwhisker is far e ough down to not hit my limb and high enough to be out of my line of sight and the bottom one is guestimated to be about the same. You wont hear anything but the swish of string cutting air out of any of my bows. If you have to go thru more its time to buy a bow better built for hunting. Or buy some dacron. ;)

Yea since I went wood all the way I just stopped worrying so much about fps and put about 99.9% effort in honing my release cycle and so far if I just keep pulling things just work for me.

Rubber cat whiskers, tied on with the simplest possible knots at convenient points top and bottom, almost adjust their own positions...they create silence.

Thanks JSD for taking the time to post this, I for one am going to try your recommendations.

Thanks JSD for taking the time to post this, I for one am going to try your recommendations.

Stupid double post...my impatience and double clicking strikes again.

Sorry!

2 does the job for me

I'm a guitar picker who uses D'Addario 11's nickle wound, with a wound third on my Godin acoustic, so what do I know. I love listening to the gozintos though, so bring on the math.

Great info. Thanks

JSD, I think that is actually wrong as far as the 1/4 and 1/3rd are concerned. I am familiar with the basic theory also, but those are the nodal points for the third and fourth harmonic, where as regards those modes, the string is not moving through those points. Those are the points that if touched in the guitar example allow the string to keep ringing, not the points that kill the string. If they were you wouldn't get any tone. All you are doing is suspending the fundamental, the 2nd harmonic, and possibly the 3rd, it is the same note, same pitch not higher. So those are not the best places to put the silencers, except they aren't bad as starting points, but that has a lot to do with just finding a place that isn't in the loops or the serving.

Also, the simple rules only apply to strings, not to bow strings that are inconsistent in diameter and weight along their length.

I once listened to a 2 hour lecture by the guy who edited the Journal of Guitar Acoustics, while it was still around. He certainly believed that with a relatively small research budget the issues that builders needed to know about guitars could be unearthed. But he had only one trick to suggest for making better guitars, notwithstanding all the research he had been involved in. So I mount silencers with zip ties, and move them around, they stay put when left. It's far more honest than pretending we know what we are doing from theory.

Must check into the resonance issue. Those are interesting.

Excellent thread, I guess I am a little geeky too.

Pluck the string and change the brace height until you get a 7th that sounds like Mark Knopflers Sultans of swing. Then divide that by 2 and multiply it by the square root of the brace height in 1000's. And there you have it my friends the simplest way to quiet your bow.

BUT if you have tone dead ears or just old ears do this. You're trying to get rid of oscillation. The bigger the oscillation the louder the bow. Two silencers cut it into thirds. Years ago Widow suggested two up and two down. I took it one step further. Three up and three down. Really works. I'm seeing a lot of guys at my club with 6 now.

Bowmania

How many muskrats are on that string Todd? ))

Bowlim,

Adding ANYTHING to the string is going to reduce vibration. I can assure you that putting these on the harmonic points chokes them and doesn't make them ring. Also, the 1/4 and 1/3 points aren't the same note, just part of the same series. 1/3 is a 5th of above the 1/2 harmonic. 1/4 is an octave above the 1/2.

The harmonics ringing on a string are what makes the tone complex. String material and construction changes the amount of harmonics a string makes (think Nylon/Catgut vs Steel or Nickel or Brass). But the rules are still all the same regardless of diameter or material. Just more noticeable on some.

The whole thing is pretty interesting. If you have bow you don't mind experimenting on, try this:

Put yarn at the 1/3 and 1/4 points. Listen to the note the string makes when you lightly pluck it. It will be low and have a dark tone. Slowly start pulling pieces of yarn out and plucking and you'll hear the tone get brighter and brighter.

SO what's happening is the yarn is reducing the bright, most audible 'twang' of the string but still allowing it to move pretty freely but not continue =vibrating for long.

To get rid of the LOW sound as well, you'd have to load up the string like Bowmania is doing. My silencers are maybe 1/8th the size of his :)

Hey has anyone tried a string stop that is being use on some of the compounds?

Funny how you never stop learning when it comes to archery. I have a mid 70s Bear Grizzly with a BCYX string on it with cat whiskers.

It's not loud but it's not as quiet as I would like. I was curious so I took off the cat whiskers and took pieces of wool from an old glove, 2 small pieces on each end and set them about 3-4 inches apart. I was amazed at how quiet the bow is. Also, the feel of the shot was cleaner. Never know till you try different things.

George only 2 LOL. All that yarn costs me 3 feet per second. That's not much.

Shifty, I've just been trying one. Don't really have enough info to give you an opinion. When I say just been trying one, I mean a half hour ago and it started drizzling.

TGbow, I did some test with cat whiskers. They slowed down my bow more than the 3 feet that the yarn did.

Bowmania

Bowmania, I've used cat whiskers for years but I have never tested the performance vs other materials. Funny how different string material and different silencers have effects.

WOW I've never seen trad hunters get so "technical" about silencer placement. The compound guys would laugh.

JustSomeDude - I agree with everything you said, except the part about sympathetic vibrations. Sympathetic vibrations occur when certain pitches are played on one or more strings causing other unplaced strings to vibrate and make sound. And the sound is audible because the guitar body vibrates causing the air to vibrate.

Let's both have a double Crown Royal.

Best wishes!

ttt

Nice Pronghorn Bowmania is that a Voodoo elk antler riser Think I know your answer.

I don't play the guitar....but I DO play bagpipes.

And....ain't NO amount of cat whiskers will quiet them down!

:^)

All my bows are super quiet when I take my hearing aids out. I always set my brace height for good arrow flight and then worry about the noise.

No one can tell you EXACTLY where to place string silencers on any bow.

Put some in the string, then gow shoot it and move them until it as quiet as YOU can gt it. Tha's the right place.

I did some testing the other day. I took several bows out and shot them with a decibel meter next to me.

I used two groups of arrows 200 grains different in weight spined for the bows I was shooting. slight difference 2-3 points for heavier arrows.

I tested and recorded the results then added cat whiskers and tested again.

Then I added beaver balls and tested again.

Then I put the decibel meter down range and shot over it.

The test was not as scientific as I would like but it appeared that the whiskers and beaver balls did not lower the decibel readings more than 5 points TOTAL and the arrows in flight were as loud as the bows.

The bows were a mixture of Great Northerns , Widows and Bears, longbows and recurves.

Now the Question I have is this. To my ear the whiskers and Beaver Balls sounded much quieter but the meter didn't support this.

Are we really making the bows quieter or are we changing the sound produced but not the actual loudness.

Anybody else used actual testing equipment to verify results? Good Day

Just changing the tone I would think?

I stick to 1/3 and 1/4. Use it on dozens of bows. All of them go "thunk" instead of "boing!"

Heterodyning with placement at 1/4 of string at top and 1/3 up from bottom contact with catwhiskers

I’ve used cat whiskers at 1/6 and 1/10 with success. There’s science behind it, but I can’t explain it. I just now it works.

I just juse earplugs, and my bow is quiest as can be.....

I tried the 18.3% method. Seems to work well. The only thing I can add to you science guys is that i put different length whiskers in each bundle figuring I might kill different sounds coming out of the bow. That seems to have helped also.

Funny nobody mentions the bow itself much.

I have all kinds of bows here....without silencers there are some fair differences.

I bought one particular bow about a year ago because according to all the reviews it sure is a dandy....well...it sure is noisy also .I tinkered with it and now it's pretty quiet. How quiet?

About as quiet as one I just finished building....with no silencers on it.

Yellah Nocks i was just going to say i was surprised there was no mention of the 18.3% method. I also use it and on my hunting ilf it seemed to provide the best results.

Thanks. Try cutting them whiskers different lengths. I dont care it it looks like a golf ball all puffy. Mine are floppy and work great.

I wonder what the old guys are thinking as they sit around the heavenly campfire and hear a discussion like this. I can only imagine.

George,

This is another example of making archery more complicated than it needs to be for most of us. Some folks enjoy all this technikool stuff. I prefer to spend more time shooting my bows than thinking about them.

I have one longbow with no silencers on it. I have one with beaver fur strips on it. I can't tell the difference in the noise they make. They are both quiet enough for me.

What is so onerous and "technikool" about taking ten seconds to measure the length of a bow string and then another six seconds to do two quick division calculations in order to place silencers in the most effective location?

60" / 4= 15"

60" / 3= 20"

Then another 30 seconds to measure and mark the bowstring. Then remove the string and place the silencers.

I am happy that people in the last discussed technical issues with bows so we could have fibreglass limbs, aluminium arrows and Dacron strings instead pointy sticks and sinew!!

I imagine the "old guys" would be happy...Fred Bear, Bob Lee, Damon Howatt and all the rest of those creative old guys never stopped innovating and questioning. And we're the better for it.

I’ve tried different silencers and always come back to cat whiskers. They just seem to be the best for me and don’t attract burrs either. My scientific method of placing them is … Hmm that looks good about there. Works for me. I shot 3 deer with that bow this fall and did notice that there was no sound at the shot.

Pdiddly2,

Nowhere did I use the word "onerous" or any synonym to it. I know many folks enjoy all the technical minutia. Good for them. But I also believe that a lot of folks spend a lot of time making things way more complicated than they need to. And it isn't necessarily because they have some deep down technical curiosity. They just read all these things and become convinced that they have to do it. Heck even in this thread you have people using various locations for silencers and some report success and others no success. And some people hang them on their string for looks and are happy with the results. No intense harmonics math was used.

I shoot my longbows for the relaxation and enjoyment it gives me. If I want to bring mathematics back into my life I'll go back to work.

Bill...I just cannot stand a noisy bow!! LOL!

Drives me crazy...

Will do anything to make a bow as quiet as possible...including math!

Then I can relax and shoot my bow. ;>)

We have discussed this several times sense this thread was started.

There is no exact distance - because its not just the string effecting the frequency. The string is help by 2 springs(the limbs) and those springs vary bow to bow. Additionally because the arrow arrow and the nock sets arent centered that that adds another small variable.

The main points to remember are dont put the weights at the same point on each limb and the close to the tips the less power you lose.

I would try 1/5 and 1/4 and then adjust till you are happy.

18.3% on my recurve works the best for me.

I generally use the 4th harmonic node on top and the 3rd harmonic node on bottom. But, having stayed at a Holiday Inn Express, I dispute the original assumption, that bows are not 'different" in this context. The reality is that a bow is a nominally stetchy string pulled taut between the ends of a flexible, moving tuning fork with a nominally flexible base when a movable, flexible rod is inserted to absorb some but not all of the kinetic engergy from the string released from full draw. In order to shoot an arrow, a focued load is applied near but not at the center of the string's length, with the flexible rod 'attached' also near but not at the center, the limbs of the tuning fork are placed under significantly greater bending load than their starting load through use of the drawn string, and then the tension is released, putting string, limbs and arrow into motion. At that point the tension on string and limbs decreases rapidly as the movement of the flexible rod increases rapidly. The flexible rod moves away from the string miliseconds before the limbs and string come to a near instantaneous decceleration upon return to their "starting position", which in turn sets off an entirely new set of motions and vibrations of the string, limbs and riser. Different bows have different vibratory harmonic and harmonic responses to all those different applied, released, partially- dispered load states and return to the original loading state. How those vibrations are absorbed is obviousy impacted by how the bow is held by the archer, and how flexible and massive the arrow is, in addition to the construction and materials of the string and limbs. With all those vairiable, it is a bit simplistic to expect that the noise produced by vibration upon shooting of all bows by all archers with all arrows can be equally reduced by the same placement of vibration dampeners (silencers) on the string. Its like the fallacy that noise is automatically reduced by increasing brace height: you're simply increasing the string tension and limb loading at the resting /return position, so you may actually be increasing the vibrations produced by shooting your bow. You just have to play with the variables until you find a 'best' combination.

That last sentence pretty much says everything anyone needs to know.

Kansasclipper x2. That's what works best to my ear.

Mangonboat, that was fantastic! All variables covered except air density, humidity and temperature.

Beautiful!

He just took a really long way saying - the string is held by 2 springs and the springs vary greatly - making in sort of rule impossible.

It depends!

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