For those of you who have border limbs. Are they really different, or just good marketing? I have a short draw length, so am always looking for ways to maximize efficiency. Does the border design really increase speed/power? I haven't seen many designs that significantly moved the dial back in the days of Blackts reviews...
I have had a few Borders with Hex limbs. They are nice limbs and shoot well. All of my experiences have been that they like a heavier arrow and put down a very respectable fps doing so. When I would lighten the arrow up around 8.5gpp is when I noticed more noise and wouldn't gain much in speed. To date though, my favorite limbs I have owned (2 pairs) have been Tradtech BF Extremes. Great limbs!
Wow limbwalker!...one things for sure...you have little to no experience with Border Hex7/7.5 limbs!
Oak...take your choice...
They'll either throw 12gpp arrows at the same speeds most conventional limbs throw 9gpp arrows or?...
My 38# Hex7.5 Covert Hunter stores the same energy and doles out the same leathality as a 52# conventional recurve.
That said?....my name has been drug through the mud like a tiller during monsoon season in Indiana so don't take my word for it...but here's a well respected somebody reviewing Borders Hex7 Covert Hunter...here's a link too Pete Wards Review...
I must add..the BF Extremes were on a Gillo Ghost riser and the other set on a CD WF19 riser. So that may have a lot to do with how well they performed and why I enjoyed them. Actually I am waiting for a Border ILF set of limbs to come up in the classifieds to put on the WF19 to try out. You will never know unless you try them. And incase by chance you don't care for them it will be a easy sale.
I have two sets of Border ILF recurve limbs and I love them. They are smoother and faster than anything else I have ever shot. I do have more than my share (according to my wife!) of custom recurves....Bob Lee, Robertson, Morrison, Brown Recluse, Black Widow as well as Trad Tech and Samick ILF stuff.... My Borders are my go to recurve limbs. They can have a little carbon "ping" to them, when they are not tuned properly, but with the right tune mine are whisper quiet. If I had a LOOOONNNNGGGG draw length it "might" not be such a big deal, but with barely a 28" draw, nothing comes close to my Borders. If I were you, I would get in touch with the Sid's and let them help you out. The Border Super Curves have a "sweet spot" in which they actually begin to gain less poundage (relative to the first part of the draw) and Sid can set you up with this "sweet spot" at the last couple of inches of your draw. He does this by outfitting you with the proper length limb and riser combo. When you draw them it will blow you away. So smooth and SOOOO fast, without a trace of hand shock. I think the Borders get a bad rap sometimes because people shoot them on a riser that does not put the "sweet spot" in the right spot. I shoot Mediums on a 17" Morrison riser and they fit me perfectly. My 13 year old tries to shoot them and he HATES them. He terminates the draw BEFORE the "sweet spot" begins and they feel 15#'s heavier. My Dad draws 30" and he hates them as well, because he has pulled past their "sweet spot". Basically, if they are set up right for you.....nothing shoots better. IF they are not set up right for you and YOUR specific draw length....you will NOT like them. I did ramble a lot here, but I guess I am trying to say...>I LOVE MY BORDERS! I have some nice bows, but everything I have pales in comparison to my Borders. Honestly, all of my other recurves feel like they "stack" HORRIBLY, when compared to a proper set of Border HEX 5,6 or 6.5's....I have never tried the 7.5's...but I want to! Just my opinion...hope this helps. Take care and God bless!
Night and day different than conventional limbs. My ult pro's are 1# heavier and noticeably slower. I shot thru a chrono and my buddy with an a&s longbow laughed, said your only 2fps faster than me. I said let me shoot "YOUR arrow" and that shut him right up. Lol
It was horrible George...I fell apart at 50yds with an "Under/Over round...and?...had never shot the bow past 30yds before attending that 900rd...where I also shot that 900rd with 450gr/11.9gpp arrows...but it pushes those arrow at 184fps.
I'm making up some 9.4gpp arrows that do right at 200fps that will at least get my point back on TDC of the target at 60yds as I'm trying to keep them full length as well for better alignment windage wise.
Performance wise they're a good limb but Borders warranty requirement for a certain GPI makes them perform not much better than other mainstream ILF limbs, unless you're going for something like the hex7's
High performance means higher stresses and in some cases means a shorter lifespan, I went through 3 sets of Borders 2 x Hex6 and one CV-H limb all under warranty (each less than 12 months old) and never got my promised replacement after the 3rd set failed (they just ignored my e-mails and PM's).
My current Kaya K7's have lasted 2 years and shoot a little slower than the CV'H limbs. Others have had good experiences, with any Archery product you have to weight up all the pros and cons and decide if the extra performance and price is worth it.
They really are different to answer your question and they are no doubt one of the fastest bows available.They do have a super smooth feel at the end of the draw cycle that feels nice and relaxing.I had the HEX 5s and HEX 6s.In ILF and Black Douglas.He has advanced on those limbs since.I have not tried the newer ones.I got real kick out of shooting the ones I had.You could just tell they were very very fast.No Chrono needed!
Some folks are calling these Border style limbs super curves.A few other bowyers are imitating them or modeling their limbs with a similar design to Borders
I had trouble tuning them until I learned that they need to be setup with the arrow in the same plane as the string - no outboard left for a right handed shooter.
The fastest production limbs that I know of are Border and Uukha's. Border's are faster by a tad on most accounts. Speeds not everything, but it is measureable.
On TT back a year ago there was discussion about the Border Hex 7.5 draw curve. Sid, the bowyer, got out a set of limbs and measured them. From 24 to 28 inches of draw they gained 2.4 pounds. Hence the perceived feeling of let off. Most bows gain that in one inch. Again measureable.
I've bought some ILF Hex 7.5's due to some shoulder problems. I had been shooting a longbow that was 50 pounds at 29 inches. My Hexes are 39 at 29, but I gain 6 foot/pounds of energy with the Hexes. Tell me about some conventional recurve that you can drop 11 pounds in draw weight, but gain 6 foot/pounds of energy. Only super recurves. Again measureable results.
When it comes to accuracy, I'm not going to argue that one. If Brady wanted to shoot Border's he'd have to buy them like the rest of us. He's not doing that and loose an endorsement. I can say that I heard of European Championships being won by Border.
I do a lot of shooting at 40, 50, 60 yards. Makes me pretty good at LW accuracy. This is my first hunting season without a longbow in over 20 years. I am have trouble at the longer distances with Hexes. I have a huge gap, like 40 inches at 20 yards, I don't know for sure. A point on of 62 with my longbow. The gap is much bigger at say 50 yards with the Hexes and I'm having trouble adapting to it. THat said I'm not hunting out of state this year so I'm not working on it as hard.
My short distances are every good as they were with my longbow. This is just not a measureable factor. Maybe if I had a shooting machine we could have some input.
I'm wondering if Brady can shoot 40 pounds better than 50. I think he shot 52 in the Olympics. Why would he shoot 50 when he can get better performance with 40? If he can and the Hexes are as accurate as a regular recurve, I think we'll see a change in about the same amount of time that compounds came into vogue.
WHAT??? YOu say compounds aren't allowed in the Olypmics because they're not a bow. Oh well, never mind.
Yes, they are really different....however you won't know if they're for you until you shoot some. I could care less about "speed/power"...for me it's all about the feel at full draw (and I haven't shot anything newer than 6.5's). Your mileage may vary.
Stay at it Bill, it gets better each time out. Fit makes an accurate bow, and I'll take fit any day of any brand of bow as far as that goes. I have some that fit my own parameters...the Bear Tamerlane, Hoyt Pro Medalist, and my first one...a 1968 Shakespeare Titan-X-15 that was a lights-out accurate shooter...much better than I could ever shoot it.
I'll say this again to folks who think you need heavier weights to shoot 900 rounds or even field archery, Sandy Elott shot over 500 on a field round with a 25# bow. Think about that when you talk about needing over 40# to shoot 80 yards.
"I can say that I heard of European Championships being won by Border"
I won Euro 3D's with the CV-H limbs and shot some good scores with them (no issues with accuracy) I've shot similar scores with K7's and now even better with MK1440's. Most limbs will out shoot the Archers ability, including myself.
To date the MK's are the nicest all round limb, and I've shot a few ILF's including the Hex6 and Uukha 1000's, an amazingly sweet drawing and stable shooting limb, no where near as fast as the other two but cost less and recent experience has showed me stability is way more important than speed.
THE BORDER limbs pop off strings sideways hunting and are so radically curved they are hard to string and are very prone to damage without the owners taking care of the problem.I no longer post anywhere they are posting and promoting and say they are overpriced and would buy anything else. Their weight range is in the middle, peak weight at 2 1/2 turns out. Weird.
With Border's stringer, which is near perfection (nylon pocket on one end and a non-slip loop on the other), the 6's are the easiest stringing recurve limbs I've ever owned. I won't comment on the difficulty level with two-pocket stringers...never tried one with them, never needed to. They might require more "straightening" of the limbs, but they prefer a lower brace range anyway. The stringers work fine on long bow limbs, so I trashed all my crappy stringers.
If you don't mind waiting, taking more time than normal to tune, don't m d breakage issues or being made to feel you are the problem if the limbs fail or the limbs are unsatisfactory, then you will love them.
I use a Selway stringer with mine and have had no issues.. I do remember Sid mentioning not to use the dual tip stringers (like my Bob Lee stringer) when I bought my first sent from him. Would be a royal pain to string a set of Borders with that type of stringer. My oldest set is a set of HEX VH limbs and I have never had any issues with them or any subsequent sets. I have also never had a string slip off while hunting. The string rides deep in the limb/string grooves and with the amount the string wraps the limb, I would think it would be harder to accidentally unstring them, than a standard recurve. I DID have that happen to an old Bob Lee Recurve once. My own fault running through he brush like a wild man, chasing Texas pigs! It was hot out and my string was heavily waxed....hung some brush and string slipped right off her.....scared the heck out of me! Have a blessed day!
Oak...unlike "opinions"?...here's some true to life 1st hand results I documented via video and published on utoob.
Thgough I've made many videos of it?...I figured the best way to reveal the performance of this 64"/38#@28" Hex7.5 Covert Hunter of mine would be to show you how fast it is with a light arrow and how powerful it is with a heavy arrow.
First "The Light Arrow" results: 270gr/7.1gpp 215fps...
And?..."The Heavy Arrow" results: 575gr/15.1gpp 168fps...
And?...I might add the following information...
1. All Border Products are ordered by and sold directly to the customer only through Border Bows...none of their products are available through dealers or distributors.
2. Border Bows does not sponsor any archers as they feel the performance of their products speaks for themself.
3. If the Scotish based internet service that services Border Bows wasn't down right now (like it has been "on & off" for the past few weeks due to flooding)?...it is my belief you wouldn't be reading 1/2 of the negativity being posted herein and the Sids would handily defend their good name.
I guess different people can have different experiences but I ordered a Black Douglas. Had a nice talk with them to verify specs. Received the bow in shorter time than promised . srtrung it up with their stringer , no problem. Found an arrow that it liked and then shot one of my better rounds at Cloverdale this year. The speed takes some of the guess works out of the yardage estimation. I would definately recommend their bows.
"I had trouble tuning them until I learned that they need to be setup with the arrow in the same plane as the string - no outboard left for a right handed shooter."
I have a one piece Riever and when nocking an arrow on the string with NO side plate, it still shows the tip of the arrow 3/4" left of center-line.
Without taking a rasp to the riser there isn't much to do for tuning to center.
I have good experiences with my Hex6 limbs. Then, I decided to order 2 sets of HEX7.5 from Border. Both sets broke at full draw within 1 year. Border sent me the new limb sets. The replacement broke again for a very short period. Border said I must abuse my limbs and stop my warranty. To answer your question, I said NO.
JusPassin, what size arrow are you shooting? The Black Douglas riser is cut 5/16" past center. I shoot some small dia shafts that I have to adjust to get to center.
The fastest bow isn't always the bestest bow. 8^). You gotta be able to hit consistently with it. Seems the chronograph pops up right away when discussing which one is supposedly better. It takes more than that. The quality of a consistent loose with little to no vibration, along with fit...which in my opinion is 80% of any bows worth.
I agree with George Stout...numbers on a chronograph no matter how zippy or powerful have little to do with whether or not the bow is...
"A Shooter"
matter fact?...many times (but not all times) it seems to me that the faster a rig is?...the less forgiving it is and in some cases?...can be downright squirrely.
I also have little doubt that in many cases?...folks don't know and aren't made aware that with the big hook limbs?...their DL will typically grow anywhere from 1/2" too a full inch due to the softer, smoother back end that allows them to more easily relax into full form and alignment but?...that as well can create gremlins as that soft back end doesn't bode well with more dramatic and dynamic releases where I found a semi-static release works best for me.
It took me a good month to learn how my first Hex7 CH (I bought used) liked to be shot before I fully melded with it but then?..."Got Hooked on The Power" (so to speak! LOL!)
Coincidentally?...by the end of that same month "That Feeling" of let-off went away and the very different draw cycle became "Normal Feeling" to where I would need to draw a conventional recurve in order to remind myself just how different feeling it is.
It is my opinion that many who suffered bad experiences with broken limbs and such may be because they'd of been better suited by going up one length in limbs where the most previlent limb failures seem to be with "Short" limbs which would've been suitable IF....the archers DL had remained consistent in length but they grow when dealing with big hooks.
I think we also need to remember that "Big Hook/Super Recurve" type limbs are still in their infancy as they've only been out but for several years or so which leaves a lot for everyone to learn as thier use evolves.
Thank you all for taking the time to answer my questions.... I think I got what I was looking for. There are way too many domestic bowyers with outstanding customer service to deal with a foreign company that won't stand behind their product when it fails. I saw this come up enough in the different posts that there MUST be something to it. Thanks again!
As the OP you knew enough that you spoke of Blacky's reviews yet also asked if Borders Limbs are really that different or...
"Just Good Marketing"
where pretty much everyone knows "Borders Has No Marketing" nor do they dunnel their products through dealers or distributorships because the only marketing department Borders has is...
"Legions of Happy Customers"
and a handful of squeaky wheels that get louder and louder.
There are quite a few US bowers that have fabulous products. I would look into the Morrison MAX 1-4's as well. They are VERY similar to the Borders and shoot scorching fast as well. The Zipper Z4 limbs also come to mind. I have never even held a Zipper product, but I hear wonderful things about them as well. The truth is I LOVE MY BORDERS, but that is just my opinion. I would just as quickly pick up a set of Morrisons or Zippers.
Coincidentally, I love my ACS CX 3 piece as well. It is ALSO smooth and scorching fast. The original OL Adcock stuff did have issues, but A&H has made changes to increase longevity and durability. Those changes did make a difference. I have two sets of limbs for my ACS and they have both been bomb proof. My 16 year old son and I have drug them all over Texas and Oklahoma. They are still kicking and smoking arrows out as smooth, fast and accurately as anything I own.....excluding my Border curves. :)
I have killed deer with all of the bows above and my sons have killed deer with them as well (my 16 year has, at any rate)....I have had great luck with them. I hate to hear that others have not had similar experiences. There are so many great bows and bowers out there. This year I am enjoying a new to me Centaur. IF the Lord is willing I will put another buck or two on the wall this coming year-with my good old USA made Chimera!
Order what you want/can and shoot what you prefer.....life is too short. Have fun, play hard and God Bless!
"1. All Border Products are ordered by and sold directly to the customer only through Border Bows...none of their products are available through dealers or distributors."
Incorrect, Wales Archery, IXPE sell Border limbs. Stolid Bull did at one point but Holger stopped because his customers kept having limb failures. He only endorses Rudy Weick limbs now.
Actually, the ORIGINAL OL Adcock stuff had zero issues. I know because I have a 64" takedown PRE-ACS that he made for my 30th birthday. It still out-shoots every other longbow I've ever shot. Period. I can't say much about the ACS stuff other than I shot the very first ACS bow ever made and it was faster with less hand shock than any single string bow I ever shot, even to this day.
Say what you want about OL, but he was a brilliant mind and came up with a revolutionary product. They don't just hand out patents you know.
I think I'll go shoot my Adcock longbow now, just for old- times sake.
Jinks I have no doubt Border make great performing limbs and the majority of customers are very happy. My better half Katrin won 7 World/Euro titles with a Border Longbow.
But the measure of a good company is how well they deal with customers if things go wrong (LAS comes to mind on this point), Border are terrible at this because I feel they're in self denial that anything going wrong with the product must be down to user abuse and most Archers I've personally spoken with about their dealings with Border have had the same made to feel "it's your fault" experience from Border. Their passion is what makes a great product but it also blinds them to the things that are wrong with the product.
Mike, LOL, it's not a bad thing...(think sudden infant death syndrome). Obviously some think it is, but I've always found them helpful and never had anything but good experiences. For the sake of full disclosure, I'll admit I've had no problems. If the OP's been around LW much it's no surprise this devolved into personal opinions. I reiterate my previous advice, try before you buy...they may or may not be for you.
I think OL's bows were awesome and worth every penny I was just describing the fanfare-I also think Borders are worth the money for low poundage shooters because of the increased performance (like the ACS was at the time).
Dont put words in my mouth.OL helped me and others tremendously with online advice 15-20 years ago when we were learning to build.
I never said anything derogatory about either brand.The Borders are well represented online by fans like Jinkster just like the ACS fans were well represented back then.Performance bows.
Jinks.... I'm waiting for you guys to throw out the perfect clout end again. Bahahahahaha 1 freakishly good end does not define the quality and accuracy of a limb. Four freakishly coincidental shots can put them in the X-Ring on one end too .hahahaha
No need for us to argue amongst ourselves on this topic.
Oak, do as I have done in the past, find what you want on the secondhand market. That being said, so many damn fine choices stateside me I generally spend my money elsewhere. Just bought a new 'curve from Wes Wallace. Now there is a customer service GIANT!!! :)
I never fault someone for being enthusiastic about a product they really love. It's just that when others don't feel the same way, they have to respect that as well. That's really all I ask, whether it's from a fellow archer, or from a bowyer.
"Zetabow: High performance means higher stresses and in some cases means a shorter lifespan, I went through 3 sets of Borders 2 x Hex6 and one CV-H limb all under warranty (each less than 12 months old) and never got my promised replacement after the 3rd set failed (they just ignored my e-mails and PM's)."
Im not sure why this story is still being told? I recall not long ago this coming up again on TT and Sids apologized and said it slipped thru the communication cracks and they wanted to make things right. Did or didn't they resolve this replacement issue?
DanaC, I don't know, for sure if Border was building the MAX 1's for Bob, but I do know he was struggling with the material in the limb butts (I think) for a while. He did tell me he was getting some of his materials from Border...(If I recall, the tips and butts). That strange looking "carbon-ish" substance. Bob is a master builder so I assume he figured it all out in due time. I ordered my first set of HEX V-H limbs from Sid, through Bob Morrison. He actually radiussed the limbs and finished them out with black, satin epoxy. He did an amazing job. He also built me a solid Phenolic ILF riser that suited the Border limbs perfectly. It would not surprise me if Border built the MAX limbs for Bob, or still does....but I cannot answer that with any certainty.
As far as the original OL ACS stuff goes, they DID have issues. John, I hate to say it, but just because yours have stood the test of time.....does not mean there were no issues. I am actually referring to the original carbon limbs. IF I am off on my pre/post OL stuff, please let me know. I don't proclaim to be an expert. I just have a couple of A&H's and love them. I have not had a sampling (of the original OL stuff), but I hear they WERE faster.......just not always durable. Same holds true for my Borders....mine have been bullet proof and flawless, but I have enough situational awareness to realize MY sampling does not qualify me to stereo-typically state there were NO issues with Borders. I know there have been, but as for me and mine, they rock.....That is the point I was trying to make. I really like them. I do completely agree with you John, in regards to OL. The man was a genius! That simple design mod makes so much of a difference in a limb. So light, so smooth and sooooo fast. I will never part with my ACS's.....Lord willing. Just my experience and my 2 cents! Cheers!
Clinton - go back and re-read my post. We're talking apples and oranges. Someone said original Adcock, and to me, that's pre-ACS like the bow I still own and shoot to this day.
Even though there is no carbon in it, and it's not an ACS limb profile, it still smokes most every traditonal bow I've put it up against, including my best ILF offerings. 202 fps. at 9 grains/lb. Been doing that since the year 2000 and it's taken lots of game in the process.
No limb without fiberglass is going to be as durable as limbs with fiberglass. I re-learned that lesson recently when a really nice pair of W&W Inno Power limbs blew up on me at full draw, right in front of my entire JOAD club. High performance comes at the cost of durability. Anyone who says otherwise is selling something.
Actually you have no idea how many squeaky wheels since there's thousands of people on other forums and even more who dont do forms. What you see here is a tiny fraction so we really have no clue. I personally dont judge entirely by satisfied customers but also factor in the ones who had breakage that wasn't addressed. I tend to stay away from article designs because most have problem till they're not so radical.
Ive had a bowyer desert me after 2 sets of bad limbs. I would take one of his bows if it were free. But others love his bows so I was just the unlucky one I guess. Oh, and George life's too short to shoot slow bows when most good accurate bows are not slow,lol. I've also found that grips that are comfy to some are also preventing them from shooting their potential. Sometimes the custom grips guys like are grip s that can be easy to torch or heel. I've only shot one border and for me the draw curve made a consistent do harder to attain
John, Holy cow...that is fast....especially for the time. I would love to see a picture of that thing. You are spot on...apples to oranges. I (not being much of an expert, at all) really don't think of anything "pre-ACS" when we talk OL Adcock. I am relatively new to this trad world, but I love it. I have tried a few, loved a few and want to try them ALL! I do see your point too Patrick....I would finally throw in the towel as well. Just no worth the headache. Well....if anything, the original poster got quite a bit of good info and LOTS of opinions. Take care all and have a blessed day!
Yea, OL's original, conventional bows were still better than most. I think some people forget that, or never realized it in the first place. At one time, his and Bob Morrison's designs were just a step ahead of everyone elses.
"Im not sure why this story is still being told? I recall not long ago this coming up again on TT and Sids apologized and said it slipped thru the communication cracks and they wanted to make things right. Did or didn't they resolve this replacement issue?"
In a word NO.
I wont go into what was said on PM's but basically told to contact Anne to sort out shipment, after 4 weeks and no reply I tried all the Border contact addresses or PM's on Tradtalk and got nothing.
It seems very strange to have a replacement set of limbs sitting on a shelf for a year and they never shipped them or contacted me when they have my address and contact info on file.
GLF, again...just because we say the fastest bow isn't always the best bow or the most accurate, we are not saying we want the slowest one. That mindset has seemed to rule the Leatherwall forum for many years. Some folks just don't get that there is space between fast and slow. Shall we just say there is a point of diminishing returns on both ends.
Of course no one will understand that because I said the fastest wasn't always the bestest...so I must like slow bows. Yep. Leatherwall logic at its best.
Most people here are talking about 20 yard shots, maybe a little more. If you really think there's going to be much of a difference between a Samick Sage and an $800 production or more expensive custom, I'd say you are mistake (acceptable draw length not withstanding).
The general spread in fps with same draw/arrow weights, may be in the 10 fps range. Even twice that, isn't going to be significant. People have preferences and are more than willing to give you their opinions, but in the end, that's all it really is.
Before I spend $$$ of a new rig or part of a rig, I'd better know exactly what it's going to do for me, and how much of a difference it's going to make down range.
Whew! This went a lot of places I never thought it would go. I'm kind of a scrawny guy and have short arms / draw length. I know speed isn't everything, but if I can flatten out the arrow trajectory some, I might be able to play a little more effectively at longer ranges (field shoots and stuff that I shy away from now). I shoot instinctively (that will probably get another row started) and it helps at longer distances if my internal calculator doesn't have to make such wild adjustments.
I know speed isn't everything, but speed + stability + good customer support = win for me. That is hard to find.
Again, I got what I needed - Thank you. Any arguing after this is not my fault!!!!
I have been on here a long time (usually silently reading - I worry I'm an addict). Some designs truly are something new, or forgotten and reinvented. I thought this might be one of those.
Now...this is my 64"/38#@28" Borders Hex7.5 Covert Hunter and here's how fast it's 38#s shoots those very same 450gr arrows where it's about 15-20fps faster than the Herters and is so at 10#s LESS DW...
Now I will state that while I have FF+ string on the Borders?...the string on the Herters is of Dacron.
I might also add that while the Herters is braced at 8 3/8ths" the Hex7.5 CH is braced at 6 3/4".
I'll also add that due to the super stout draw cycle of the Herters that my DL with that bow is about 27 3/4"s while I draw about 28 1/2"s with the CH's 10 less pounds and far softer back end.
Demmer...by todays standards?...yes...that's a true statement but for a 42 year old glass & wood bow?...I think the "Magnum" moniker most likely held true amidst it's peers of that time...then again?...I don't think many archers owned chronographs in 1975! LOL!
But guess what?...I also don't think CF arrows were available in 1975 where jacking the arrow weight up from those 450gr/9.4gpp arrows too 575gr/11.98gpp arrows?...the Herters only lost 10fps.
maybe the 25 1/2" riser of this Herters sporting super short, extra curly limbs was the design result of the much heavier arrows used back then?
I can tell you that I do find great joy in shooting those heavier arrows off the Herters as it makes the bow ultra quiet and extremely well behaved...especially with it's massive riser and?..
Out to 25yds?...I can be just as inaccurate with the Herters as I am with the Borders! LOL!
Though the 10#s more DW does abbreviate my shooting sessions with the Herters. ;)
The reason that Sid told me you don't see them shooting sponsored shooters in the Olympics, for example, is that companies like Hoyt and Win&Win can afford to do it and Border cannot compete with their resources. Sponsored shooters do not always shoot what they would personally prefer. They get equipment that their coaches and sponsors want them to shoot...as I understand it.
I call bs. The sids are more than capable of "sponsoring" shooters. Two free bows to a worthy shooter is peanuts in their scheme of things. Everyone who wears a win win or Hoyt shirt isn't always on a paid staff. It's just more of a cop out for not having more on that scene
I can tell you the Koreans and Chinese want to win at the Olympics, pretty sure our guys do too. If there were any advantage to the Border design, they wouldn't need a sponsorship from Border, they'd just copy the design.
If in the next 10 years, every shooter on the line were shooting a "hex" style limb, I'll stand corrected. To date it hasn't happened.
While not my cup of tea, I'm not saying it's a bad product, just that when precision shooting is concerned any advantage is dubious at best. For trad shooting, it's non-existent.
Ok, I'm highjacking my own thread.... Mr Demmer, how did Wroclaw end ? I check YouTube ten times a day and the shootups are there but not the finals. It's killing me!
Even looking at the top level World Archery Field/3D Barebow you don't see Border much if at all now. Alan Eagleton shot the Hex6 a few years ago at worlds but I don't think he uses them anymore.
This is not saying the Border product is bad or flawed, just that for these elite shooters speed is obviously not top of their list when looking for a limb. I think the same would apply to Olympic shooters as well.
I shot the two sets of Hex6 for about 18-19 months, they performed and felt great, having a short draw I hoped they would give me the same speed as my competitors with longer draws than me and did help narrow that speed gap. I didn't see any great jump is scores, if fact when the CV's came which we're only a little slower I did see an increase in scores, when they failed Katrin bought me some Kaya 42# K7's (because I had no backups) which have lasted me well for last couple of years, and still in good condition. I got the same speed as the CV's but dropping arrow weight to 7gpp.
Last year I got some 38# MK1440's for Indoor rounds, they're so sweet to shoot I started shooting them for everything Field. 3D and Indoors. They're not top of the range but they give such a good balance of draw smoothness, shot consistency and speed that this combo is so well balanced it was dumb just to use them for Indoors. It's been a long journey of discovery but I'm finally getting what's REALLY important in a limb characteristic.
The Border limbs might not be the best for getting every last point you are capable of producing on paper but for a hunting rig they are great. You can drop several pounds and still produce the same or more foot pounds of energy. This is helpful when hunting large animals like elk and above. It is also great to have less weight when sitting in a tree stand freezing for 10 hours and having to make a shot. Having the lighter weight also helps with the being over bowed syndrome and can help with your form as most people when dropping weight pick up some draw length. I dropped from 60 down to 48 and now can comfortably hold for 30 seconds at full draw and still perform a controlled shot. The Border limbs are fully capable of delivering an accurate broadhead out to 50 yards.
You might not see Border limbs in the Olympics anytime soon but you won't see Black Widow, Morrison or most any bowyers limbs or bows there either.
""I can tell you the Koreans and Chinese want to win at the Olympics, pretty sure our guys do too. wait for it...
If there were any advantage to the Border design, they wouldn't need a sponsorship from Border, they'd just copy the design..."
And BOOM.
Tony nailed it (as he drops the mic and walks away)"
Several have tried to copy it, (names withheld), but they havent been able to replicate the low pounds per inch gain or performance that Border has. I have no doubt Hoyt and others have investigated Border limbs, but they have to weigh out the cost of new tooling and other issues to bring it to market. Hex 7.5 is only 1.5yrs old, dont expect to see a Hoyt copy yet.
I really think Chris hit the nail on the head........we have ALL sorts of archers on here. The target archers looking to shave a few points off their score may not see benefits to the Borders. As a hunter FIRST and 3D archer second, the Borders do present a huge advantage...if they hold up. I have had exceptional luck with mine, but I also realize not everyone has been so fortunate. I shoot heavy arrows and just hunt with mine. I also only draw 28"+, so I am not REALLY stressing them too much. For me, I shot 50+-#'s with my Borders and they shoot my 575 grain arrows faster than my 60+# bows. That is the advantage to me. I can shoot 10# less from a limb that draws smoother, that I can hold longer and........still eclipses my 10# heavier limbs by SEVERAL FPS. I know speed is not everything, but with speed comes a + in kinetic energy and THAT is the benefit in my eyes.....less work for my trashed joints but more game killing energy. I don't care how you cut it. Push an arrow with a scalpel sharp broadhead faster......and you do have more killing energy. Also, the durability issue seems to be quite common. I wonder how much of this has to do with the varying limb pad angles of todays ILF risers? When I bought my first couple of sets of limbs from the Sid's I spent copious amounts of time exchanging e-mails with the big Scottish fellas. At that time, they were really particular about which ILF riser I planned to put my limbs on. They claimed, and I agree that todays ILF risers vary so much it is a bit chancy to put their limbs on them. Many of these risers are not consistent, among the same manufacturer and we all know the pad angles vary from model to model and manufacturer to manufacturer. The Morrison risers were given the green light and that is what I went with. There were other recommended risers, but I don't remember them all. The Sid's presented it to me this way.... The HEX series limb is a high performance limb, engineered to operate efficiently in a certain envelope. When you shoot them on a riser length or pad angle they were not designed for, you take them out of that envelope and therefore you negate their effectiveness....you also run the risk of damaging them. I think that is why most issues we read of are involving the ILF limbs rather than the CH hunter, bolt down stuff. The bolt down bows force you to run them on the riser they were engineered to play on. All things run better when operated in the manner they were designed to be used. You would not run your Porsche Carrera 150 MPH....in 3rd gear, would you? Oh it might do it, but chances are it would not hold up and you would be likely to trash/blow up your toy. It WAS engineered to go 150+, but not in third gear.....does that make it a poor design, or a faulty product?
Just my opinions and no more. Take care and God bless! I hope everyone has a blessed day!
I have to say that between my experiences with limbs like Border and Win&Win, the next set of limbs I buy will be from Win&Win. They have everything I need in a bow. Easy tuning, very quiet, fast and stable. It's not an issue for me to have to paint or camp tape the shiny logoed limbs. They are the best ,imo.
That is saying a lot Bill. I may have to try those myself. I love my Border's but, if mine blow up this evening........I will feel the same, for sure. I have rattle canned more than one set of discounted Amethyst Borders. I have two sets of the Trad Tech Carbon/Wood recurve limbs that are serving my boys and I well. They don't have that perceived let-off that I am addicted to, but they are smooth and quick. Take care and God bless!
"I think that is why most issues we read of are involving the ILF limbs rather than the CH hunter, bolt down stuff. The bolt down bows force you to run them on the riser they were engineered to play on. All things run better when operated in the manner they were designed to be used..."
Sorry, but this is flawed logic. Any manufacturer of ILF limbs should understand the full range of conditions (from 15" to 27" risers with a wide range of geometries) under which their limbs may be used, and plan accordingly. Otherwise, don't produce ILF limbs. It's really that simple.
I think we can see there's two schools of thought here, not pros and cons, but one school is concerned with hitting a spot. The other wants to hit the spot, but with a certain amount of energy.
I used to be in both, but shooting high poundage twisted my spine. I'm looking at Borders to extend my archery career. I can't shoot the 50 pounds I shot last year.
Soooooo, the biggest thing here is lousy customer service. (I sure hate to make a blanket statement like that on the LW.) For me if my limbs explode on one shot after the hunting season - I don't care - I got another hunting season out of my body.
How many guys here would extend their archery career by switching to Border, Uukha...??? I'm betting a lot. I always ask kids when they have a disagreement with their parents. "Are you going to get dumber as you grow older?" I get a negative answer and I don't expect anyone will change because of my post. Surely, none from the spot school.
How much would you pay for one more year of archery, whether you're spot or energy? Maybe you should start saving for retirement NOW?
""Any manufacturer of ILF limbs should understand the full range of conditions (from 15" to 27" risers with a wide range of geometries) under which their limbs may be used, and plan accordingly. Otherwise, don't produce ILF limbs. It's really that simple." I mentioned this very thing on another forum and of course I was accused of being a "hater." However, it is true. If your intent is to utilize a universal connection, it doesn't make a lot of sense to attach it to a design that is so sensitive to specific parameters. That's not so say that it isn't a top performing design, it's just not a design that lends itself to ILF.
To a lesser extent, when ILF started to become popular in the "traditional" world, the same thing happened when custom bowyers started making limb pockets with very tight limb tolerances. When not all limbs fit well in their risers and damage to both limbs and risers resulted, they tried to suggest that it was the fault of the "other limbs." In reality it was a flaw in the design of a riser that was supposed to be universal.
Some things are just better suited to a proprietary connection, where everything can be controlled.
KPC"
And if Border made the fitting unique and called it say formula or something, you all would cry foul and say they are just trying to make you buy their riser and limbs. They just cant win in this situation.
The answer is yes! They make a huge difference. If anyone says otherwise they have not experienced the Border difference. Yes, they are expensive and well worth it. Can't afford them, go away. Here's the proof: 50# 734 gr. arrow = 180 fps same limbs with 592 gr. arrow 201 fps. I have a 40# pair coming on Friday, why not lighten up and still get the performance of most other bows with much more weight. Here is something I don't understand: Sid keeps experimenting and fine tuning his products to produce the best performing recurve bar none - why don't others? I can't believe some of the other top brands are just resting on their laurels and plodding along - sorry I demand more, which is why I have sold almost all my other bows for a small fraction of the price that I paid for them.
You guys that think Border bows are worth the money, just buy them and use them. Some folks don't think they are and that pisses you off....that is the entire issue.
I think they are beautiful and wonderful shooters, but I don't think they are any better than any other bow when you consider every game animal on this planet has likely been taken with sub 50# selfbows at one time or another. It makes for good talk, bragging rights, or whatever, but frankly Scarlet.....
Ain't a whitetail made that I can't kill with my 60's recurves, so the rest is all relative.
Bowmania...I've "BEEN BOTH" con and then pro and I know you've been around the forums long enough and avidly enough to recall a time not too long ago that I myself was rather aggressively outspoken...
"Against Borders"
and for a good 2-3 years where I simply felt like many here that Borders products were both over-priced and under-proven with performance claims heavily leaned towards the embellished side and I railed hard against Borders doing everything I could in an attempt to equal their performance as I cycled through a plethora of other products trying to find that magical combination to have my Ah-Ha moment and claim I found an equally performing alternative for a reduced cost.
In that effort?...I tried everything from 13" ILF risers too numerous high dollar short limbs and while I could come close to matching speed?...the only way I achieved that was by using ridiculously light arrows and nothing anyone would hunt with where finally?...I resorted too the claim of....
"Well I don't need a ton of KE to punch holes in paper!"
But despite that claim?...the Borders shot those light arrows even faster.
George?...I don't get pissed when folks claim Borders aren't worth the money as I myself once used to claim the same so suffice it to say?...I understand where they are coming from cause it is a lot of dough but at the same time?...some of those same folk wish they had the $1,599 to secure one of the newly released Special Edition Bear Take-Downs....and I don't blame them...looks like a beautiful bow but?...it's not like Bear Archery hasn't seen their fair share of bow failures recently either...it happens...and?..can happen to any of them where sometimes it's the result of mother natures supplied materials and other times?...it can be the result of operator error.
$, Nostalgia,fear of the unknown? This has been a good thread-enlightening. Seems as if there is a performance plus and customer service minus. Want to hear other angles, if there are any-respectfully done of course
Nobody can tell you if it's worth it or not because that's a personal choice, they do perform well and the finish quality is above the rest.
I shared my experience because I feel it's important to know about the good and bad points so people can make an informed purchase. Many happy customers a few unlucky like myself who have had bad experiences.
Keep in mind EVERY manufacturer has had failures at some point. The key point for any purchase is how well a Bowyer deals with the customer when things sometimes go wrong.
Zeta is right. Nobody else can tell someone whether it's "worth it" to them, only they can decide that. He's also correct that the way customers are dealt with when things don't go as planned, says a lot about a company.
Archers have long "careers" in the sport/hobby. And for that reason they have long memories. Once burned by an unpleasant interaction, it really doesn't matter how good a product is, they are going to go elsewhere.