Is there truly a best limb material for a bow (Longbow or recurve), or is it a matter of opinion?
Would one species be better for longbow vs recurve?
"Best material" is obviously subjective, butlet's say for issues including, but not limited to: smoothness, durability, speed, accuracy/consistency...).
If there is a "best material", the "why" part is the interesting part of the answer.
In a laboratory you could demonstrably prove the benefits of one material (surface and core) over another for a specific parameter. In the real world, the differences are rarely as noticeable.
Can't really answer your question since everything has to be a trade off. More speed or smoothness may result is less durability - for example.
BTW - as a general rule, any time you use the word "best" in a question, you're going to get opinions, not facts. Face it, if there were a "best", everybody would be using it, right?
I can't tell you what the best is ,I can only tell you that when I build a bow my limb cores are bamboo, I really like the feel of bamboo both drawing the bow and at the shot, so for me and the bows that l build for myself they will have bamboo limb cores....Again this is only my opinion......
there is not a best in terms of wood species, there is a best in terms of physical characteristics. there are numerous wood and non-wood materials that have physical characteristics better suited for a bow limb, than others.
Don't think there's any disputing that carbon yields better performance than glass and that either has more to do with a bow's performance than the core woods.
As a core, foam is gaining popularity, in part because it is less sensitive to environmental conditions like heat and cold than wood cores.
Bamboo is used as a core or part of the core in a lot of olympic style recurve limbs. So are different all carbon layups. Very good speed to weight ratio and quite durable.
Bamboo is my favorite core, but I also have and like a foam core bow. I like carbon on the back of my bow limbs, and glass on the belly, but am quite satisfied with glass on the back and belly. Dlm and maple also make very nice limb core laminations.
Nothing truly best, though some are better than others depending on the application.
I agree with Viper in that many of a limb material's attributes could be scientifically analyzed, with proof provided as to their ranking in various catagories. However, it's highly unlikely that any one would best all others in all tests, and aside from that, not everyone judges their attributes by the same criteria. The feel and preferences of individuals' regarding some of a material's shooting attributes are subjective, but cannot be discounted and are always a part of the equation. And yes, there are always tradeoffs.
Even if there WERE a single quantifiable "best performing" limb material, if it wasn't quite aestetically pleasing to me, the test results couldn't convince me to use it.
Well, I say there is a best and it wouldn't appeal to Jeff and I don't know what it is. It is the stuff that Border and Uukha used to make their Super Recurve limbs. Different and propitiatory in both cases.
The requirements to give the big hooks torsional stability, in my opinion, help make them forgiving besides giving them incredible speed. Anytime a guy with some physical problems can drop 11 pounds in bow weight and gain 6 foot/pounds of energy, tilts the scales to 'best'.
That being said, I'm with Jeff, if I could go back to my 'elk bow' I would.
Well, I say there is a best and it wouldn't appeal to Jeff and I don't know what it is. It is the stuff that Border and Uukha used to make their Super Recurve limbs. Different and propitiatory in both cases.
The requirements to give the big hooks torsional stability, in my opinion, help make them forgiving besides giving them incredible speed. Anytime a guy with some physical problems can drop 11 pounds in bow weight and gain 6 foot/pounds of energy, tilts the scales to 'best'.
That being said, I'm with Jeff, if I could go back to my 'elk bow' I would.
Kinda depends on what you're looking for. If it's a material to make you a better shooter, there is none. First you have to be good enough to tell the difference as far as performance and accuracy goes, and I honestly think only a handful of guys out of a thousand could ever tell.....me included.
Again, history can show you what is both functional and durable, from hard maple to ash...to hickory and bamboo. There is no best, and I don't care how many ways you split it. Our time would be better spent hitting what we are shooting at, before we run out of time to shoot.
Recurve limbs have so little wood that wood types not gonna matter. The only way it could matter is speed and with the small amount of wood it would have to be super heavy to slow a recurve limb.
Thick climbed longbows such as asl's are a different matter. The limbs are mostly wood and since each wood has different attributes of course it matters in smoothness and in speed. Plus some woods are more consistent in density so easier to make weight.
carbon is lighter weight and is faster, foam is lighter weight and is the new limb wood. Weight matters when you're trying to make limbs that will push an arrow as close to dryfire speed as you can get em to.
The ticker cored bows will show a different fell in like bows. However, I know of only two bows made with walnut cores, they both cracked. Prior to that they were fine shooters. I think a durability consideration is more important than a performance comparison with most bow designs.
The oldest black walnut cored bow I made, a subtle d/r longbow, is 19 years old now. It's 53 lbs. I shot it a lot, for several years then sold it to a friend. I don't know how often it's been shot since, but as far as I know it's still ok.
I do partially share your view though on walnut, Dean, because I tried several times to make a backed bow with it and all of them fretted eventually.
And yep, durability is another important aspect of performance. Too often in these discussions, folks think only of arrow speed.
IMHO why not look at what has stood the test time... That would be Hard Rock Maple under glass. There is probably a very few of us on here that does not have at least one bow that is not "decades" old and still shoots.
With the advent of clear glass IMHO is when a lot of these other core woods started showing up from the custom builders and I'm not sure when that started. Clear glass was available when I started in 88. But not to my knowledge in 1970 when my Dad quit. he probably would not have used it any way LOL
Carbon "enhancing" has also come along way. I know the Uukaha limbs are a solid carbon composite. Something most bowyers could not build and they are fast. But again IMHO those limbs and the Borders could not hold a string with out the carbon weave that is in them. Those materials allow for being able to go to the extremes of bow designing.
Far as the foam goes, I've only built one bow with it using the new weaves. For the money I spent...speed wise I was not impressed, but you can stand on those tips and not twist them LOL
Guess my bottom line is this. The new materials you can get some faster limbs. But in the test of time I'll put my money on hard maple and glass
Louie Armbruster made Zebra bows for years, He told me He could make limbs out of balsa and it wouldn't make any difference as long as they were between glass. babysaph is right.
Balsa, is a very light hardwood and may work just fine, until it cracks. On a laminated bow, the face and back do the brunt of the work, the stuff in the middle separates the two surfaces and by geometry increases the weight (resistance to bend). Pretty simple right, the core just goes along for the ride? So you think a laminated limb with a lead core would be as fast as one from balsa wood, or maybe, I dunno, maple? Getting more real, what's lighter and stronger, maple or carbon foam???
Yeah, the core does matter, but you have to ask yourself, how much of a difference is there among all the currently used cores? Is there a difference? Of course there is, on multiple parameters, but how many people are going to be able to notice or more importantly exploit those differences?
Carbon has and had a place in limb construction for the last few decades. Properly built limbs with carbon faces and backs with be noticeably faster than their fiberglass counterparts. But typically the draw is less smooth, in some cases "harsh", but that can be subjective.
Carbon as a core has a lot of advantages, not the least of which is that it can be made to MUCH tighter tolerances than any natural material. It's also lighter and more resistant to environmental changes - up to a point. What's not to like? Well, for one thing, they tend to destabilize. Using Olympic limbs as an example, typical life span is 5 - 7 years, under competition level training loads. Oh, they won't fail, they just won't group as well as they did when new. Is that an issue? I dunno, can you hold a paper plate sized group .. at 70 meters?
and btw - "real" Olympic guys never worry about limbs destabilizing. Why? Because they are given new limbs on a yearly basis, or whenever a company has a new model they want to promote. You know, "marketing". For the rest of us, shelling out over $700 for a pair of limbs takes a bit of thought.
Now, to be blunt. If you're concerned about a 6" group at 20 yards (which is pretty darn good for a trad shooter), almost none of the above is going to ever matter. If you're a 290 level shooter at 20 yards, or plan on living at 70M, then maybe it does.
A simple way to put it is, whatever energy the limbs use to move their own weight forward is that much less transferred to the arrow. Weight DOES make a difference but mostly in limbs with thick cores like asl's.
Carbon fiber would not make for a light core, it is much heavier than any wood core. Carbon is only light because of it's stiffness to mass ratio. As a core you would not get those benefits. I believe carbon would add stability.
Btw those were also Howard Hills finding when he searched for the best wood for his glass backed bows. It's also the reason thicker glass lamps aren't used.
Back around 1989 when I was looking to buy my first custom recurve I sent a letter to Bob Savage asking for a brochure and included a dollar for postage. He mailed my dollar back and said he wasn't making bows to sell but just for himself. Wrote me a nice letter giving his opinions about certain bows and woods. Said it was the glass that made the bow and one could use balsa wood he thought. This was before carbon and foam were being used.
Nothing is sure in archery, I've seen so many anomalies the last 20 something years that I will buy into ALMOST anything. There is always somebody who can shoot 90# woodies from a 45# bow, always. There will always be a glass bow with maple cores that are faster the one with foam or boo. I think a lot of reliable averages can be had, but nothing is sure.
I think bow design and profile trumps any difference in feel that one could possibly detect by comparing different composites or materials.
That said?...
The Best Preforming Longbows I've Owned:
All sported limbs comprised of Glass Bellied Bamboo Cores backed with UDCF ala...
21st Century Edge "C"
Timperpoint Kraken
McCullough Tsunami "C"
The Best Preforming Recurves I've Owned:
All sported limbs comprised of Foam Cores with UD & Cross-Weave CF ala...
W&W RCX100 ILF Limbs
Kaya KStorm ILF Limbs
and?...
Everything & Anything "Borders"
Lonbows have their own extremely high level of torsional stability so they can get away with using just the UDCF backing (in lieu of glass) which pairs up extremely well with Boo making for some very low mass fast acting limbs.
But when things get curvy?...nothing gives a recurve limb the level of stability that X-weave CF does and anything less?...
I only build glass bows in my hobby shop and over the years I have used dozens of different woods for the limbs. I really can't see much difference in performance between any of them. The only woods I would never use for a glass bow AGAIN would be cypress or spalted (half rotten) maple. I had some really nice cypress, clear straight grained, and built nine glass bows using it for the core. Most were light weight kids bows of different designs. In a short time everyone failed, the cypress was not strong enough. I re- limbed all these bows and never saw any of them again but it sure left a bad taste in my mouth. I never used balsa wood but would really like to hear from someone who has any experience with it.
IMHO I don't believe that Balsa wood take the compression of a bow limb it is very soft.
The aforementioned foam is by far the very lightest stuff I have ever put in a bow limb. It's lighter than wood or carbon. But it is a very limp material and bends with little resistance. Till it snaps! LOL I done a little test with foam and a few common core woods for weight and deflection for a given thickness. By know means would I call this definitive. But the lightest stiffest wood was red elm in my little test followed by hard maple
That's interesting to me Viper on all carbon limbs destabilizing over time. Do you know why? To 99% of us we would never know that by shooting them
In the almost 30 yrs of on and off bow building. What has become available to a bowyer is pretty incredible. But it still boils down to this. "Everything is a compromise" I doubt if you will ever see one of those super hot Border limbs in the winners circle of Olympic competition. But you won't see those Olympic limbs burn a chronograph up either. LOL
I built some test bows a few years back as close as possible to the same, with cores of red elm, hard maple, action boo, and walnut cores and black glass.
Altho the stack was the same, the weights varied a little, and I didn't have the arrows to get exact gpp on all of them. But looking at the results , they seemed to be all very close in performance.
So I'm in the design (and maybe carbon ) over core wood crowd .....
Steve Jewett of Bushmen Bows is a close friend of mine where close to a year ago we actually designed a bow together and in the process of geting to know his shops capabilities?...he went over some of the materials he had in stock ranging from Koa too G10 and Ceramic too CF...where atone point with a chuckle?...he admitted to me that in his penchant for trying new things?...he even once built a "Balsa Wood Bow"...thinking it feather weight mass may prove extremely desirable to those hunting high elevations...then with a big belly laugh?...told me that even being what he considered to be "Over-Built"?...it never mad it too his full draw of 25"s! LOL!
Yet?...we both successfully turned out this radical beast about 10 months ago....
A actually don't know the reason in every case, but I would guess most likely the foam itself breaking down. I've not see that in glass/wood or even carbon surfaced/wood. The problem is that it happens subtly and without warning. Most shooters, if they notice it, will blame technique before realizing there is a real equipment issue. Only way to confirm is to switch limbs and compare scores. I talking growing from 3-3.5" groups to 4-5" groups at 20 yards over a few months. Please understand, in my case, I was shooting upwards of 1,500 arrow/week, and that may be nothing compared to what some of the Oly guys do.
I stick to the old reliables, like hard rock maple, bamboo, yew and red elm. All I need is a bow that has the right mix of speed,stability and accuracy, provided I do my part.
So they were foam cored limbs instead of solid carbon composites. That may make sense. There is no real "grain" to the foam, unlike glass and carbon at least having a fiber either uni-directionaly or woven. I'm wonder if over time the repeated limb compressions are taking its toll on the material. Did you ever notice any poundage drop in the bow?? That might be an indicator of the cores going south.
1500 arrows a week! That's a lot of shooting. You must have competed some ;)
Hum, that is interesting and thank you for the replies. Even when I was competing doubt if shot 1500 arrows a month! LOL
Yeah Doug your right and I hate the stuff. Never had anything but problems with that stuff when I was building back in the 90's. Draw weights were all over the place and the last Challenger I built busted when I was checking the draw weight of the bow.. Think the last add I put in TBM said no more bamboo. Maybe some of the other folks can make the stuff work. But I will never build another bow out of it!
I am so glad I stopped chasing numbers. Shooting wood with wood, wood and glass, grass and glass is more complete for me. Now I just need to thin the herd and have more arrows. Arrowsbis where it's at in my book. Rooty
Limb design is probably a bigger factor than limb core material. That said, certain woods or materials, may perform better with certain limb designs and forms. Ever notice how some bows perform better with low stretch strings than others?
Bamboo has it's uses in bow construction, but not all bamboo is created equally. The best I found was from a Chinese firm that had incredible machinery, used to create flat pieces with sanded edges that were gathered and edge glued to make 2" and wider material. Remember that when the culms on raw bamboo are removed while sanding for internal lams, you no longer have much that resembles the bamboo used as backing on self bows. What you do have is a material that is great for absorbing vibrations caused by other material in the lam stack and that is fairly consistent in properties. All that said, I agree that good, selected, hard maple is the gold standard for bowyers wanting a reliable, strong and consistent lamination. Foam is fine for resistance to heat changes in a bow shot outdoors under tournament conditions, but not much else.
Purely opinionated preference here, but I've always been partial to maple cores, and black glass. Definitely not the smoothest drawing, but always seemed to be the fastest, and snappier.
MY OPINION ONLY, but....... As far as Recurves go, I have several sets of Border HEX limbs and they are all proprietary layered carbon with proprietary Hyperflex cores. Not a spec of glass in them. I love the feel of them and they are soooooo fast and unbelievably smooth. Same weight arrow, limbs and same SBD strings. The Borders smoke my Bob Lee TD with its hard rock maple cores and clear glass, but.....the Bob Lee is quieter and I "seem" to shoot it better on most days (under 25 yards). Past 20-25 yards the Borders are easier for me to shoot well and of course they are MUCH flatter. They are a much more stable limb and are more forgiving of my usually imperfect form. This is a very subjective question for sure and everyone will have an opinion. Both of my bows above have roughly the same Reflex amount. I realize that IS an important factor as well.
In longbows. I just love my Centaur Chimera. With its 1/2 glass 1/2 cross weave carbon limbs and bamboo cores it seems to be the best of both worlds! I much prefer my Chimera to my ACS CX, with its carbon/carbon limbs. My ACS does have the bamboo cores too. My favorite limb core would have to be bamboo. It may not be as snappy as Hyperflex, but I like that.....they just seem smoother to me. Once again, my opinion only. YOUR mileage may vary. They are all good. You really need one or TWO of each.... God bless!
The borders use hi tech materials to enable building to an optimum design. It's as much the design as the materials that make a Border what it is.
Just a SWAG, but if a Bob lee was built with the same hi tech materials as a border but the design otherwise unchanged, the hi tech model probably would not be that much quicker than the lee you already have.
Along with "fact" and "opinion", maybe myth should have been included. :>)
Facts and opinions..I like actionboo and pretty veneers under clear glass.. sometimes the clear and colored glass can be streaky and that makes me sad... The carbon and foam materials when used correctly make a really good limb. But for now in my hobby shop I'm staying with glass, grass and wood. The Bowyers like Border spend many thousands in research and materials getting to where they are today. Here are some of my first ILF limbs I made with bamboo tapers and Olive ash burl veneers. Even though I have never used it I think hard maple has stood the test of time and likely is the best.
I always seemed to have the best luck with hard rock maple cores and black locust cores. I have used a lot of bamboo cores but the 3 bows I had fail had the bamboo. It was good quality, vertical grained flooring that I planed and sanded down to thickness. I have dusted off one of my forms and am going to make a longbow here soon. I will be using HR Maple as the core.