Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


My Swing Draw Training W/ an ASL...

Messages posted to thread:
Jinkster 13-May-17
Skeets 13-May-17
Tzioxphon 13-May-17
Daven 13-May-17
fdp 14-May-17
Jinkster 14-May-17
M60gunner 14-May-17
dean 14-May-17
Jinkster 14-May-17
Jinkster 14-May-17
Jinkster 16-May-17
Jinkster 16-May-17
Jinkster 16-May-17
Darkarcher 16-May-17
Jinkster 16-May-17
Jinkster 17-May-17
Jinkster 17-May-17
Darkarcher 17-May-17
JustSomeDude 18-May-17
BSBD 18-May-17
dean 18-May-17
JustSomeDude 18-May-17
dean 18-May-17
Stickshooter 18-May-17
BSBD 18-May-17
dean 18-May-17
BSBD 18-May-17
dean 18-May-17
Jinkster 18-May-17
Jinkster 18-May-17
Darkarcher 18-May-17
dean 18-May-17
dean 18-May-17
Bowlim 19-May-17
JustSomeDude 19-May-17
Jinkster 19-May-17
dean 19-May-17
2 bears 19-May-17
Jinkster 20-May-17
dean 20-May-17
dean 20-May-17
Daven 20-May-17
Altek 20-May-17
Jinkster 20-May-17
bradsmith2010santafe 20-May-17
Jinkster 21-May-17
Orion 21-May-17
Jinkster 21-May-17
Jinkster 21-May-17
Fritz 21-May-17
Orion 21-May-17
Jinkster 21-May-17
dean 21-May-17
Jinkster 21-May-17
Jinkster 21-May-17
Orion 21-May-17
Sunset Hill 21-May-17
Orion 21-May-17
dean 21-May-17
Fritz 21-May-17
Jinkster 21-May-17
Jinkster 21-May-17
BSBD 21-May-17
Hal9000 21-May-17
Hal9000 21-May-17
Jinkster 21-May-17
Hal9000 21-May-17
Jinkster 21-May-17
Jinkster 21-May-17
Jinkster 21-May-17
fdp 21-May-17
Hal9000 22-May-17
dean 22-May-17
4nolz@work 22-May-17
dean 22-May-17
4nolz@work 22-May-17
fdp 22-May-17
4nolz@work 22-May-17
Lee Vivian 22-May-17
Lee Vivian 22-May-17
dean 22-May-17
Steve Moore 23-May-17
YanYeoman 23-May-17
K Cummings 23-May-17
RonG 23-May-17
dean 23-May-17
RonG 23-May-17
Roadrunner 23-May-17
dean 23-May-17
Jinkster 24-May-17
4nolz@work 24-May-17
K Cummings 24-May-17
dean 24-May-17
Orion 24-May-17
Jinkster 24-May-17
4nolz@work 24-May-17
Jinkster 24-May-17
Orion 24-May-17
Lee Vivian 25-May-17
dean 25-May-17
Hal9000 25-May-17
4nolz@work 25-May-17
stykshooter 25-May-17
dean 25-May-17
dean 25-May-17
Jinkster 25-May-17
From: Jinkster
Date: 13-May-17

Jinkster's embedded Photo



Begins now...

Put a couple camo puffs on Misty here and what a quiet shooting little lady she is! :)

From: Skeets
Date: 13-May-17




That looks pretty good!

From: Tzioxphon
Date: 13-May-17




Peter O Stetcher has it down like Hill the best. If you can look up his youtubes you will get a treat and you should friend him on face too.

From: Daven
Date: 13-May-17




Archery Dual!

From: fdp
Date: 14-May-17




Just a heads up, and it can be considered or not, but you can slow that process down at least 2 seconds. The swing draw is merely a way of drawing the bow. It isn't a shooting method. You can swing draw, and hold at anchor for several seconds if you choose.

Speed comes with repetition.

From: Jinkster
Date: 14-May-17




Thanks Frank...I was actually wondering about that.

I guess the mystic of this shooting woodies off an ASL is taking me back to my youth where the training mantra of my father and his friends too me was...

"and in One Fluid Motion?.."

where I was thinking that this Hill style swing draw was all about the point of aim and release coming together at the same instant.

Not so huh?...cause I do know my accuracy would improve is I slowed things down a bit...quite a bit. ;)

Thanks again, Bill. :)

From: M60gunner
Date: 14-May-17




Jinks, try and find John Shultz video as well. He talks about counting as he goes through the motion. The counting of course can be slowed down or speeded up. This is way he was taught by HH.

From: dean
Date: 14-May-17




Quote from 1968 from a Sioux City archer that could not hit the broad side of a barn to my older friend that had a swing/spread draw, used a bow sight and could hit a Sears catalog at 30 yards nearly every shot, we used them for targets. "If you don't hold the bow back for four seconds you ain't aiming." My friend's shot cycles was a little over 2 seconds, he replied by asking, "How long does it take you to move your bow an eighth inch?"

From: Jinkster
Date: 14-May-17

Jinkster's embedded Photo



Thanks M60 and that part must be in Shulz's 3rd installment?..(the only one I haven't watched yet)...meanwhile?...

It was suggested to me that I point my bow hand index finger and NOT wrap the grip with it...this made perfect sense to me as it's the middle and ring fingers that clasp and bury the ASL's straight grip into the thumb pad (rather than the web and lifeline of the palm like one does with a recurve grip) so?...

I started out close as suggested where the mission was to both slow down my shot tempo with an emphasis on "Smooth" and?...detach my bow hand index finger from the grip.

Problem was?...when I tried to point my index finger at the spot?...my sighting system seemed just as disconnected as my index finger until?...I got bold and decided that my index finger need a home and allowed it to gently ride the underside of my arrows...and was left wondering if this might not result in me shooting a base quill through it...but I tried it...time and time again...shot after shot and never even suffered so much as a touch from any passing feathers shooting cleanly past my index finger with zero contact issues and?...a greatly enhanced amount of shot consistency where just pointing my index finer at the spot while allowing it to gently contact and ride the underside of the shaft was like I discovered a...."FLIER ELIMINATOR"....and after a few ends of practice?...the arrows were in fact striking the spot I pointed it at...

From: Jinkster
Date: 14-May-17

Jinkster's embedded Photo



with my bow hand index finger ever so lightly riding the underside of the shaft at about the shafts 7 O'clock contact position (CAUTION: Those who shoot "COCK FEATHER UP"?...DON'T TRY THIS!!!)....

I'm tired...back muscles are getting a bit fatigued...I think that's all for this weekend and maybe time to fire up my cruiser and go out for a nice relaxing ride...God Bless and L8R, Bill.

From: Jinkster
Date: 16-May-17

Jinkster's embedded Photo



Finally got my string hand to stay planted in position tonight which was a very different "Release Experience" for me but showed some very favorable results where everything about the shot was much more consistent...

From: Jinkster
Date: 16-May-17

Jinkster's embedded Photo



and now that I had the string hand glued too my face?..I laid the bow over and began laying down on it with a tilted forward and canted head that greatly diminished the gap between arrow and eye and?...

From: Jinkster
Date: 16-May-17

Jinkster's embedded Photo



wow! :)

From: Darkarcher
Date: 16-May-17




Very nice. How are the groups and shooting at 25 yars and beyond? With my R/D setups i feel ike 30 is about it then the accuracy is more like can i hit the deer target at all.

You made such a stink about this asl i put in about 40hrs of web browsing and decided i had to have one. I researched howard hill archery, Northern Mist, JD Berry, and glanced at a couple others. At the end of the day i kept coming back and stairing at that JD Berry forward handle Morning Star. I called and had a great chat with JD, and today i mailed off my deposit for the waiting list. Its going be 5 months give or take but I am already excited!

From: Jinkster
Date: 16-May-17




Darkarcher: Congrats! :)

The accuracy of these bows are like any other...

"Just as capable as The Archer" ;)

From: Jinkster
Date: 17-May-17

Jinkster's embedded Photo



I got back at it again tonight for fear of not wanting to lose what initial success I've managed in executing the swing draw per Don Shulz comprehensive instructions in his "Part 2" video where it was just last night I finally managed to keep mt string hand stationary and glued to my face at the loose....and then began experimenting with laying the bow over a bit more as well as my head including an aggressive lean forward where tonight?...was a continuation of that except I tore down my hog target and went blank bale at 10yds..

From: Jinkster
Date: 17-May-17

Jinkster's embedded Photo



Until the evening rains came in cutting my practice session a touch short of the sun sinking and the skeeters rising but?...

This is 10 arrows of 5 different types...my tempo is still being kept too the slow side of about 3 seconds per shot (from arrow nocked and ready)

MISTY23.jpg

It's going to take a bit to ingrain my hunched and locked head position and I feel like I have the swing draw pretty much in hand (with big thanks to Shulz utoob) but I'm still a bit confused about "Back Tension"...I mean I hear some folks who practice this method make mention of it but sorry folks...I'm calling BS on the BT because I'm just not experiencing it with this abbreviated DL of about 26"s....(which is about 2"s shorter than my upright full form 28"+ DL with a recurve) along with leaning into the shot and canting my head with the bow?...the transfer of power into the rhomboid just never happens because my string hand elbow doesn't wrap far enough around the back to engage it but to me?...it's a non-issue because the shot happens so quickly there's really no time to contemplate silly chit like that let alone waste focus on it....arms, shoulders and chest expansion seem to be doing a fine job for me in getting everything where it should be prior to loosing the shot but the motto for this show is...

"DON'T...let the hands be quicker than the eyes!"

From: Darkarcher
Date: 17-May-17




If you want to feel back tension drop the shoulders and the elbow level with the shoulder line. You cant engage the back with your elbow hiked up in the air. Im the worst offender for this. Its cool the first time i got that muscle behimd my shoulder blade engaged.

From: JustSomeDude
Date: 18-May-17




Jinkster,

I think you looked pretty good. But when you post a slo mo video, you'll get opinions!

Right before you hit anchor is when you jacked up your elbow. That actually shortens your draw. You also creeped forward just a little and settled forward into your anchor.

Then on your full speed shot, you can see your elbow go up and after release, your string hand flops down instead of back through the draw. Watch for those little feedback movements after the shot. They will tell you a lot about your alignment.

I've ben shooting slo mo closeups of my bow hand...in full 'analytical mode'!

From: BSBD
Date: 18-May-17




I see no reason to swing draw. It compromises form, shortens your draw and promotes target panic. I shoot longbows, self bows and recurves the same. It's not allowed at many ranges also.

Shooting at running deer is silly too. If a guy can't reliably hit a stationary target at 30 yards he has little to no chance hitting a running animal at that range. Old ways aren't always the best ways.

From: dean
Date: 18-May-17




If your draw arm is in line with the arrow and you are not too hunched over, you will be using the proper muscles whether you feel them in excess or not. I can pinch my shoulder blades togeither very tight and still not put the proper tension on the string. i see lots of people shooting with faked back tension. Try hooking your fingers together and drawing your to your anchor. Move it back and forth to feel to see which muscles are working.

From: JustSomeDude
Date: 18-May-17




BSBD,

Why swing draw? Because it is fun! and this coming from the guy who is obsessed with target precision. My preferred draw method is put the point on target in my predraw. But I also practice fast shooting

From: dean
Date: 18-May-17




BSBD, Some people do have the stuff it takes to learn how to shoot in any other fashion than the static straight draw style. There is a straight draw finish to doing a proper swing draw. Properly done, the swing draw is a very strong draw and ergonomic. While Howard Hill demonstrated great versatility and accuracy, he was hardly the only one that could utilize the advantages of his shooting style. i have seen a number of people that thought they were doing things correct, when they were actually attempting the shooting style in a haphazard way. The rewards are when they get it right and tightened up, to see that light bulb moment for them when it comes together. If you not achieved that or experienced it yourself, you may not yet understand its benefits.

From: Stickshooter
Date: 18-May-17




still to this day I never understand why so many ppl tell others to slow down. with swing draw, your bow hand is moving onto the target and at the same time you are timing when so start to draw back hit your anchor and release. no slow down is necessary.

From: BSBD
Date: 18-May-17




Swing draw has far to much movement for nearly all hunting situations and I've never seen anyone shoot targets consistently with that method. I've used it for aerial targets but that's less than 1% of the shooting I've ever done.

Swing draw isn't hard to do it's just another tool to have as an archer. It's usually just not the best tool for the job.

From: dean
Date: 18-May-17




Shooting right handed, I shoot my very best with a one second tempo. Left hand it is about a half second longer. While some may shoot better groups with going to a static long hold. While I can shoot pretty tight groups out to longer ranges than I want to shoot deer, when I am in that mind set, I still shoot that first arrow best with a fluid tempo. I have never once had a deer stand still long enough after the first arrow goes through long enough for me to shoot a tight group. I have had a bunch of deer not hang around long enough for me to take a slow shot when I shot a static style, complete with a bow sight. They had no respect at all for my 4 inch 30 yard groups.

From: BSBD
Date: 18-May-17




dean, 4" groups at 30 yards would put you among the very best barebow archers in the world in their prime. Many of us have had the occasional group like that buts it's not the norm by any means.

Anything is possible on the LW though.

From: dean
Date: 18-May-17




That was with a bow sight, back in my target shooting days. I had goals at one time to compete in the PAA, but alas, shooting a deer and competing on a target line is two distinctly different scenarios. I can shoot fairly tight groups, but that is no longer my central goal. For myself, I found that shot timing isone of the hardest things to achieve and the most often ignored aspect in many bowhunters development. If one wants to use static styles, it is understandable. The kind of time and dedication that shooting Hill style is not for everyone, but it is totally doable for those who are committed to achieving success with it. It comes with its own set of basics that differ in both applications and philosophies from more target style methods.

From: Jinkster
Date: 18-May-17




BSBD: On one hand you state...

"I see no reason to swing draw. It compromises form, shortens your draw and promotes target panic."

but then you go on to proclaim...

"Swing draw isn't hard to do it's just another tool to have as an archer."

But then?...you also stated...

"I shoot longbows, self bows and recurves the same."

where I?....

Find it sort of self defeating to paint myself into one of many corners if my goal is to learn as many shooting styles (and the bows that accompany such) to have..(as you say)...more tools in the box.

I would no sooner grab my BB rig to go Spot & Stalk than I would grab this Misty Dawn ASL to fly out too Vegas but do they both have their place?...absolutely...and?...a home on my walls.

I'm fairly certain mounted archers don't hold solidly at anchor for several seconds and practitioners of Kyudo use a floating anchor...neither of which would dream of using a BB rig for what they do either yet many are extremely skilled at their style and type of archery craft. ;)

From: Jinkster
Date: 18-May-17




So as my journey into learning the "Swing Draw" with my Hill style Longbow continued?...(mainly cause I'm just having too much fun shooting woodies off this thing! LOL!)...I encountered a few challenges the first being how to properly grip the bow where according to the practitioners of such?...a low wrist with a lot of heel pressure is preferred for this style of shooting and I can easily see why because unlike shooting a full pistol griped recurve?...the grip pressure resides centered unto the fleshy part of the thumb pad rather than centered to the palms web where my palms lifeline is literally wrapped around the side of the bows grip where also?...it's advised that the index finger be left loose so as not to create any "Above Center" grip pressure which would in turn create an imbalance in the shot behavior of the bow sending the upper limb tip rocking backwards at the shot.

Once I had "The Grip" in hand?...(like that one? LOL!)....my next challenge was the release where I've been shooting recurves with a rather dynamic release?...Don Shulz advises that both the bow hand and string hand should remain static at the shot so?...it took quite some effort for me to break myself of flinging my string hand away from by face or allowing it to fly back behind my head and basically keeping it glued too the side of my face at anchor which along with the abbreviated DL that comes with this style of shooting?...made me question if I was in fact achieving and maintaining "Back Tension" where this evening?...I answered that question for myself...here's the vid...the first of four shots is in slow motion and the last 3 shots are real time and are the only four shots I've taken today...with a form-master.

In the "Comment" box...

"I'm still learning and ingraining the aspects of executing a proper swing draw style of shooting as demonstrated by Don Shulz (who was instructed by the legendary "Howard Hill") via his series of utoob instructional video's and to paraphrase and old Beatles song?..."With a little help from My Friends! LOL! but?...was left wondering if I was still maintaining "Back Tension" with the abbreviated draw length of this style of shooting that's cut nearly 2"s of draw length from my 28" tournament style of form and I'd say that my "Back Tension" is still in full force."

From: Darkarcher
Date: 18-May-17




Looks good!!!

From: dean
Date: 18-May-17




I have been finishing up the sticky spots on a full fingered classical guitar transcription of a Beatles song, I am not a big Beatles fan, but it refers memories a lot. 'In My Life'. In my life, I do not remember Don. John, Dan, James, Tom, and Steve I have talked to.

From: dean
Date: 18-May-17




Jinks it is god and in the realm if your fingers slide along your face, that would be your back tension then pulling through the shot a bit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8Y0Kztj6Dc

From: Bowlim
Date: 19-May-17




Jinks you always seem to hit the target, so might as well keep it up.

What I noticed in your first shot was that you weren't on target during the last @4" of the draw, which is a fundamental.

In a couple of the other shots you were drawing by pushing your bow arm forward, don't know if that is a problem, but it isn't the exact way.

Hill let the arrow go when he got to full draw, I think it was a trigger for him, like a clicker, and he also used the arrow head as a trigger when available. So no, long holds for long aims may be great, but it isn't the style.

And the normal Hill grip is pretty great, I wouldn't yoke the grip as though I was shooting an ILF with a sling, etc... Hill form is technically correct, and very similar to form in other aspects of archery, at a fundamental level.

Also, are you not drawn to nock handling arrows, I don't see how that harms any aspect of the shot, and it looks a lot more functional than what you are doing, which is target 101 so not hurting anything.

I shoot hill bows however I want to. I work on the Hill style, but I also shoot them 3 under, fixed crawl, whatever works. So I am not doctrinaire about it, except when shooting the swing draw I like to do it the way Hill did.

I think it is cool how you went from Border to this bow, keeps it interesting.

From: JustSomeDude
Date: 19-May-17




The form master will be tough with your shortened draw AND keeping your string hand glued to your face.

From: Jinkster
Date: 19-May-17




Gentlefolk...please realize that....

1. That first slow motion shot was my 1st shot of the day...as done with a form master used for the first time in many month's.

2. Those 4 arrows were my only 4 shots taken last night...I was close to "right" by the last shot.

3. It would've been impossible for me to be "on target" as there was no target to be on...I was shooting at a blank bale 10' away.

4. My shot tempo was slowed for demonstration purposes.

From: dean
Date: 19-May-17




When I purposely alter my shot tempo to demonstrate one thing to someone, I almost always mess up the shot in other ways. When dealing with newbies in my back yard, it is almost impossible to get them to not judge a demonstration shot by the accuracy. When I try to show a point in form such as draw or release, I intentionally shoot the ground in front of the target. Every damn time i get a "that didn't work" or "you missed' and that was after I said I was going to shoot the ground. One thing I am pretty sure of is that half of the time when I make a really good killing shot on game, whether it be a deer or a pheasant, that in one way or the other, I messed up something in my form. I made two short vids, with lots of crap going on that day, one left hand and one right hand. In both of them I saw a number things that I needed to fix. The problem is, I know that the next shot that I take at game which will be a rabbit or a squirrel in September, will have its own set of things that didn't feel quite right. One thing about a Hill style longbow, they do not punish me as much for my half inch draw length variations. When I am really aggressive I draw longer, when in doubt about shot timing or in an off position, I draw shorter. That stuff just happens, it is impossible to control every aspect of a game shot. I stated the hand coming back as a good thing, because I have seen lots of cases that in attempts to have a 'release hand stayed in the face' thing that the release gets soft. It happens to me when I am working on my anchor. I can see my index finger flop in the corner of my vision, then I know that my fingers flew out in front of my anchor and my release was soft.

From: 2 bears
Date: 19-May-17




Jinkster you still have back tension going on, or you have a powerful right arm.>>>-----> Ken

From: Jinkster
Date: 20-May-17




2 bears...

As I delve deeper and deeper into learning and shooting the swing draw style?...the more issues such as BT become almost laughable as the muscles I use in executing in this fashion are?...

"ALL OF THEM"

as I'm finding "The Swing Draw Method" is a "Push/Pull" affair...and in that order as the bow arm pushes up and out while the string hand rises straight up the body but then PULLS straight back upon reaching shoulder level and then?....

When I take into account that the bow arm is left low and slightly bent?...(being devoid of being "Locked Out") it takes muscle to keep it there and the drawing power is expanding the chest as much as it is back tension with the shoulder muscles acting as a mediator of sorts yet it is still possible to hit what feels like a very consistent "locked position" which is when I gained the ability to loose without my string hand flying away from my face or flinging back behind my head...which BTW are both undesirable conditions where the Swing Draw Method is concerned as Hill/Shulz preach that maintaining a static string hand is a crucial aspect....it was also the toughest aspect for me to achieve as I've been using a dynamic release for years now but have noticed that static release offers up as higher level of consistency...for me...using this method.

From: dean
Date: 20-May-17




While the hand needs to be in one place is a common fundamentalist thing to say concerning Hill form, it seems that not popping out or creeping forward or ripping crooked would be a for certain no-no. But as seen in numerous Hill videos, going straight back does not seem to mess up his shots. Schulz had a short action strong release, but it did jump back some. Watch Hill's right hand in relation to his bow hand. While the right hand is active with the shot, the bow hand remains fairly still while the arrow passes the bow. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hbf8PyfVfkc

From: dean
Date: 20-May-17




I have this dvd, it came in a package with the Robin Hood dvd movie release. Watching the the shot at the prune in slo-mo and watching that flu-flu in flight. Lets just say that there may have been a little feather hop coming off of the bow. The man had on a copper skull cap under that wig, that would have no help at all if there was a direct hit. But once again watch the various draw hand reactions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo8UZneuggE

From: Daven
Date: 20-May-17




Imagine swing drawing a heavy bow back, not hitting the same anchor location every time, ripping a crooked release but adjusting the bow hand on the fly based on different ranges of moving targets.

A big surprise when a rolling ball at 15 yards somehow gets hit every 20-30th shot.

From: Altek
Date: 20-May-17




Looks good Jinks, but be careful of the pointing finger on your bow hand. Best to keep it on the bow, not extended out towards the arrow tip. That takes it out of your line of sight (a good thing) and avoids a cut finger if broadheads are used.

You are doing well!

From: Jinkster
Date: 20-May-17




Daven:

"Imagine swing drawing a heavy bow back, not hitting the same anchor location every time, ripping a crooked release but adjusting the bow hand on the fly based on different ranges of moving targets.

A big surprise when a rolling ball at 15 yards somehow gets hit every 20-30th shot."

and that sir?..."Unfortunately"....would be a great description of most folks experiences with a classic Hill style Longbow.

But what many fail to recognize (or accept) is that the Hill ASL is not a "Plug & Play" type of bow and?...it's not alone!...as there are several types of bows out there that require the same sort of research, discipline, commitment and effort to master such as horsebows and yumi's...where each type of bow requires a unique style of execution.

I would venture to say that if you stuck a 5 curve horsebow in the hands of well accomplished BB archers where they had to launch arrows off bracer cover knuckles leaving their micro adjust plungers and magnetic flipper rest behind?...a vast percentage of them would be lost...unless?...they were properly schooled and trained in that particular venue which as an analogy?...would be much like sticking a Nascar racer in a 1/4 mile Dragster (or visa-versa) and expecting them to immediately do well.

But as I progress with my backyard/Shulz powered utoob swing draw training?...it's easy to see how...

"The Style Matches The Bow & The Bow Suits The Style"

cause if I were to attempt swing drawing one of my 5lb+ big hook recurves?...the results would be comical cause as I swung up and hit my spot?...the mass of the bow would just keep on going. (and that provided I didn't tear a shoulder muscle attempting such) where this Bamboo laminated stick?...weighs 1lb/3ozs and pretty much effortlessly travels in any direction my bow hand is headed and?...stops on a dime when I get there.

Oh what joy mastering such a 1/4th weight bow might bring to the savvy Elk hunter huffing his way through the aspens at 5,000ft altitudes rather than a rig that weighs as much as your average mountain rifle.

Altek: Thanks man and yes...I've abandoned the finger pointing! LOL!

You can clearly see on that 1st slow motion shot above I no longer point it...I just leave it very loose (and out of the way) around the backside of the bow. ;)

From: bradsmith2010santafe
Date: 20-May-17




Jinskster,, I practice my short Native Style bows in a simalar way, I am trying to lower my anchor more and more,, it is great fun, and the more I practice the better I get, thats a concept,,,,, I can still aim if I want too, but am having fun with what some would call snap shooting,, but there is still a shot process,,, it is just a bit quicker,,

not holding the bow weight so long allows me to shoot more,, and the cast is better on a wood bow with a quick release,, but mainly I am having fun,,,,best to you on your shooting,,,,, ,you should try a nice Native Style bow sometime,, you would love it,, they are made for your style shooting,, :)

From: Jinkster
Date: 21-May-17




My "Swing Draw Training" is officially....OVER!

From: Orion Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 21-May-17




So, you have it mastered or something else going on? Inquiring minds want to know.

From: Jinkster
Date: 21-May-17




Orion:

"So, you have it mastered or something else going on? Inquiring minds want to know."

I've abandoned the swing draw system...here's why...

I really applied myself to learning this technique...watching, listening, learning and step-by-step?...doing.

As with most other learning curves?...the lions share of progress was made up front where I felt as though I was advancing my swing draw skill level in leaps and bounds where with me being very focused on mastering this technique the only real challenge I encountered was breaking myself of my dynamic release too a static release where I also questioned and addressed back tension but managed to adapt myself to that as well and now feeling as though I had things well in hand?...last night?...

"I Backed Up 5yds Too 20yds"

where if there were a 20yd indoor target hanging?...1/2 of my shots wouldn't of hit paper.

I wrote that off as just me not being ready yet to tackle 20yds and moved back up to 15yds where I continued to spray arrows in a slightly smaller large group which is when I began to suspect that maybe it was the wide variety of wood arrow spines and weights where I began to blame the arrows so?...I eliminated that by sticking with one configuration of my cedars and?...continued to experience some very disenchanting results which is when I narrowed it down too?..."Me"....I must be doing something wrong and that's when the fishing expedition started with me focusing on each aspect of my shot one shot at a time which also included me slowing my shot tempo down to the point I was once again following a shot sequence being very conscious of every step and?...I still sucked. LOL!

At this point?...I got a bad case of the "Screw It's" because?...

In involving myself in the Hill/ASL Swing Draw communities?...I began to slowly recognize that many of those who claim to use a Hill/Shulz Swing Draw style of shooting?...would also suffix it by stating things that began with the word...."Except"...followed with?..."I do this/that differently..."

And now?...I was beginning to question the entire Swing Draw system which is when I cleared my head of it and just went with my old style of instinctive snap where the only portion of the Swing Draw system I retained was the proper grip position on my straight gripped Hill style longbow and outside of the occasional random flier where I could also immediately feel I screwed up on the shot somehow?....I instantaneously began grouping arrows again...of all weights and spines...using an extremely dynamic release with my string hand flying back behind my ear and that?...got me thinking....stuff like?...

1. Of all the Hill/Shulz video's I've seen?....(and I watched many of them trying to learn)....I can't recall watching either of them executing a shot more than 15yds away with most of their "Trick Shooting" being in the 8-10yd shot distances.

2. The last person to win anything using this system was Bob Wesley....where he was dubbed "National Longbow Champion"....(In 1982!)

3. Matter fact?...I can't fill a hand with archers who made a name for themselves using the Swing Draw system and of those who have?...they were somehow directly connected too and/or trained by HH himself...(que the old clich'e: "Riding Shirt Tails"?)

4. And then there was this video I happened to stumble upon in my utoob travels...(Note: Watch his string hand on his first shot executed at the 12 second mark...does that look "Static" too you? LOL!)

From: Jinkster
Date: 21-May-17




Now that video above?...is not entirely accurate in it's criticism of HH as the one flaw I did find in it is...

The arrow in the blue ring was not shot by him...it was one of the arrows shot by one of the females there where if you watch the original "Cavalcade of Archery"?...he pulls that arrow and hands it back too her but the rubber band around the "Two Arrows trick" and?...."The Broadheads That Bounced Off The Target"?...really made me question the authenticity of anything this legend had to demonstrate.

and too date?...the only shots longer than about 15yds executed by HH are not available for viewing but only spoken or read about in his auto-biographies which included him describing how he "Walked In Shots" on live game that were well beyond his effective range...but what I do think he had at his disposal were some of the worlds best "Trackers" LOL!

In conclusion?...it is my belief that the term "Swing Draw" was just the extremely enterprising HH re-branding what everyone already knew as "Instinctive Snap" where he attempted to describe a "Shot Sequence" of "How He Does It"...and even failed at that as evidenced by his own slightly dynamic..."static release"? LOL!...where I have concluded the best way for an archer to snap shoot instinctively is how THEY instinctively do so.

(as an aside): For decades I was involved in bands with some very talented musicians who unfortunately?...always wanted the fast track to gigs and glory by playing "Cover Music"...where I was always of the opinion that Ted Nugent didn't become Ted Nugent by playing BB King covers...and we never "Made It"...where to me?...this is much like that.

That said?...here's a man I can admire...now notice his "String Hand"

From: Fritz
Date: 21-May-17




Puhhhhh, that's a lot of big talking for a guy who gave up after a week...

From: Orion Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 21-May-17




I suppose one could say that Hill popularized a swing draw because he often used it, but he certainly didn't use it all the time, and I don't think he advocated it. It was a convenient way to draw and shoot the bow when one carried a nocked arrow hunting small game, which he did a lot.

You don't put 7 arrows in the air before the first one hits the ground using a swing draw. On some old videos I have of him shooting, on second and subsequent shots, he often just slaps another arrow on the bow with it held in the same position that he completed the previous shot. In some instances, he has the bow at waist level, nocks an arrow and pretty much uses a push/pull draw. In his book, "Hunting the Hard Way, the chapter on How I Shoot, he never mentions a swing draw.

Don't know where the idea of a static release was combined with the swing draw? Hill didn't have a static release. One can stop the draw at anchor, but the release doesn't become static unless the shooter stops pulling through at the actual release.

But, as I said in a previous post on this or another thread when you began experimenting with an ASL bow, there's really no mysticism or prescribed right way to shoot one. Can be shot just like one shoots any other bow.

From: Jinkster
Date: 21-May-17

Jinkster's embedded Photo



Fritz:

"Puhhhhh, that's a lot of big talking for a guy who gave up after a week..."

actually?...it was 3 weeks Fritz...and it's not "big talk"...it's...

"Historical Proof"

and when I witness a man not walking his own talk?...and embellishing his skills for the public with cheap parlor tricks like wigged out copper skull caps and two arrows with a rubber band holding the points together to elevate himself?...I willingly volunteer to be the first in line for getting my Hill/Shulz fan club card revoked! LOL!

On a brighter note?...It hasn't diminished my fondness for this JD Berry ASL Misty Dawn Longbow...though it is being relegated towards the mission it was purchased for...as a heavier DW weight training bow for me to "Work Out With"...but it did take me less than 3 weeks to fall out of love with wood shaft arrows where today?...I found I needed to shoot this bow with precise form to properly tune my 29" long, .600 spine Beman MFX Classics to it which required a 200gr point weight and a 1/4" move in nock point from 3/4" too 1/2" and I still think it's a touch high.

This was me hitting very near tuned at 12yds...where I started out...it's where the shade was. LOL!

From: dean
Date: 21-May-17




I see this all the time, people miss the concept of the aim and release and get trapped into the minor fundamentalisms. It is the last six inches of draw that counts with this style, the swing draw is just the variable means of getting the bow into for variable hunting shots. The rest of it is a clarification of being ergonomic and natural. Not really much different than other shooting instructions. No matter what some target shooting styles claim, they can be hard on the neck joints because they do not address the joint jamming affects of forced static shooting positions. "The hand stays in the face" does not mean a soft flop fingered release, it is still a hard release with limits on the reactions. Some people that shoot "instinctive" can only hit when they start out with the arrow lined up, that is neither here nor there, but I would rather know where the arrow is aimed at the end of the draw, when I release. For those that don't hunt I always advocate shooting a pure target style and I even tell them to use bow sights. But at the same time when they start getting good at the flat target static game and they get cocky about it, I will be the first to let them know that their "game" is very limited and the next step has variables that they do not understand.

From: Jinkster
Date: 21-May-17

Jinkster's embedded Photo



and then I checked it at about 22yds...nock point might still be a wee bit high but I sort of like it that way as it's still shooting quiet as a church mouse where the total arrow weight with the 200gr points is 468grs...just 2grs shy of exactly 10gpp and this will make a great low maintenance (and fun to shoot) "Work Out Bow" for me. :)

From: Jinkster
Date: 21-May-17




Orion:

"Don't know where the idea of a static release was combined with the swing draw? Hill didn't have a static release."

That's not what Shulz says or teaches in Part 2.

From: Orion Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 21-May-17




Look at the video of Hill shooting. That's not a static release in my book. I'll check out the Shulz video, but I've seen him (Shulz) shoot aerial targets, and he's sure not using a static release.

From: Sunset Hill
Date: 21-May-17




Jinkster, if you'd listened to Schulz you'd have heard him say that the hand stays in the face. It doesn't fly away from the face. That does not in any way mean it's a static release. Watching Hill and Schulz shoot you'll notice the hands stay in the face but there is a recoil showing that proper back tension was used and therefore the release was very dynamic.

This is a typical misunderstanding of the Hill style of shooting common in today's world of internet study lessons instead of hands on training and face to face instruction.

From: Orion Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 21-May-17




Yep. Shulz certainly advocates a static release. Don't know if you could call his release static on the round disks he shoots early in the presentation. He never reaches anchor and shoots with his drawing hand about 3-6 inches from his face.

On the short video of Hill, it's difficult to tell whether he's stopped his draw on some of the shots, or whether that is done by the film maker to illustrate a point. His draw hand doesn't move much on several of the shots, but it comes back and often down on just as many. That's not static, in my book.

From: dean
Date: 21-May-17




I have seen people get pretty good in a matter of weeks and some have a slower rate of improvement. The kid that ticks me off was the kid I gave a Big 5 68" string follow to. He has a longer draw and the lighter weight of that bow was a perfect fit for him. He has an alarming shot to hit ratio at deer and small game. He has no targets and has no use for target arrows, blunts and broadheads only. Thankfully, he has learned to make his own arrows, he goes through a lot of them. He sold his shotguns to get money to buy arrow making supplies. He did not go from compound to trad archery, he went shotgun wing shooting to trad archery. Any target shooting based leatherbrawler would declare that he is a TP snap shooter, but he looks like Hill when he shoots. One should not judge the Hill films by things they see at the target end of the films, their was editing, some of which he had no hand in the process. I don't think Hill anticipated that there were going to be an army of film critics on his case 70 years after he put out the shorts.

From: Fritz
Date: 21-May-17




Bill, it was last Sunday that I had to tell you how to hold an ASL properly.

From: Jinkster
Date: 21-May-17




Thank you Orion...I appreciate your unbiased concurring observations.

What's happened with me here is the romance factor has collided with reality however?...I do have to keep in mind that this.... (uhem)..."Enterprising Effort" was made by folks who survived the depression era where opportunities to capitalise on Hollywood fame was the big brass ring back then.

Whatever it may be?...I'm back to shooting my shot my way and far more confident in doing so. :)

Who'd of thunk?....archery techniques have evolved in the past 3/4's of a century! LOL!

Thanks for playing folks! ;)

From: Jinkster
Date: 21-May-17




Fritz?...you lost a week. LOL!

From: BSBD
Date: 21-May-17




Jinx, doesn't it feel self defeating to paint yourself into the same shooting style instead of acquiring and mastering other styles? Oh wait that's how you felt three days ago when you were parroting advice from the old timers. It's funny how those revelations can do a 180 in under a week.

From: Hal9000
Date: 21-May-17




First.. you have your hand rotated into the grip more like shooting a recurve... needs to be vertical. Second.. you shouldn't even be worried about dialing things in until you really have your form... the correct form down.

I can shoot the same over spined arrows out of many bows and they fly great... it ain't the tuning :)

From: Hal9000
Date: 21-May-17




And get those puffs off the string, that is a true give away you are an ASL amateur.

From: Jinkster
Date: 21-May-17




The bows being shot off my thumb pad hal...I grip the bow like I was picking up a suitcase with my palm wrapped around the side and my mid finger knuckles pointed straight forward...and still do..and always will...as it's the correct grip for this bow which is nothing like I grip my recurves but?...

It's of no consequence now...and FWIW?...

I gave up on the Tooth Fairy too! LOL! ;)

From: Hal9000
Date: 21-May-17




probably need to get deeper into the grip

From: Jinkster
Date: 21-May-17




hal...when I can go from spraying them to packing them just by abandoning what appears to me to be a bogus system of someone re-branding what is "Instinctive Snap" with a description of execution that even they themselves don't adhere too?

It's time for me to stick a fork in it! LOL!

From: Jinkster
Date: 21-May-17




FF too the 15 minute mark and start watching where Mr. Shulz states...

"And Both Hands Remain STATIONARY"

until the arrows in the target claiming HH says "That's Proper Follow Through"

yet?...neither one actually did as they instructed others to do.

From: Jinkster
Date: 21-May-17




Here's yet another prime example of my "Turn-Off" too this purported style....this is actually some cool footage but freeze it at 4:42 where Shulz is inferring he's about to hit an asprin tablet out of mid air...then look at the size of the head on his arrow...it's like he has a silver dollar glued on the front of it! LOL!

as shot from about 8'. :(

From: fdp
Date: 21-May-17




I think that something that gets lost in these discussions, and that Jinkster eludes to, is that both Hill, and Schulz had ulterior motives to their teaching. Hill was a brilliant business man, He even coined the term "American Semi Longbow" to add a little excitement to the American Flatbow design, and he was wildly successful.

Schulz made a considerable part of his living building that bow, and demonstrating that method of shooting.

Nothing wrong with that.

Ultimately, and this gets forgotten too, archery should be FUN. Shoot any way you like. One method is as good as the other, and some are better for some people. Shoot the way that gives you the accuracy that YOU ae happy with. Do it with the BOW that you are happy with. Nothing else really matters,

Heck, if you want to really have fun, dabble with all the different styles/methods of shooting.

From: Hal9000
Date: 22-May-17




Jinx.. that was the reflection of light off the field tip, giving the illusion there was something big on the end of the arrow, but only for a fleeting moment.

If it was actually as you said, it wouldn't have come out of the back quiver very well and wouldn't have stuck in the backstop.

You are going to have to do better than that.

From: dean
Date: 22-May-17




""a bogus system of someone re-branding what is "Instinctive Snap" ''both Hill, and Schulz had ulterior motives to their teaching"" Remarkable revelations from those who would know.

From: 4nolz@work
Date: 22-May-17




If it's not for you it's not for you.No need to discredit a method just because it doesn't work for you.Shooting <40# bows and holding at anchor while sighting is a whole different beast than this method.

From: dean
Date: 22-May-17




Folks like to get a bit namby pamby when things are not properly learned or understood. What I do not understand is why is it when instinctive shooters claim that they do not see the arrow also claim that it is so important to start out with a flat draw with the arrow more or often less on target and then finish up by completely ignoring the arrow at anchor and release. If one wants to shoot target form, fine, I shot target bows for years, but since they are shooting a static form from a static position at static game, why don't they get a range finder to mark known objects and use a bow sight? At least then there would some aiming at the release. We have the technology, range finders ain't exactly rocket science.

From: 4nolz@work
Date: 22-May-17




Uh oh Dean here come the guys saying you DO see the arrow but don't know it! LOL buckle up.---- ----->:)

From: fdp
Date: 22-May-17




Even if you don't recognize the arrow, the fact that you start out pointing at something makes it easier for your brain and eyes to coordinate, and get everything in line. Some folks can do it very quickly, some folks can't. Some folks can LEARN to do it very quickly, some folks can't.

Ever talk to a REALLY good shooter (at more than 10 or 15 yards) that denies seeing the arrow in some way? I haven't.

From: 4nolz@work
Date: 22-May-17




LOL I'm psychic...or wait is that psychotic?

From: Lee Vivian Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 22-May-17




I realize Mr. Hill wasn't a Florida state ranked compound shooter, but I seem to have read he won a few State and National Field Shoots, and took a fair amount of critters in his lifetime.

To denigrate and insult who most consider a legend merely because that person has neither the patience, perseverance, or ability to copy a certain shooting style is reprehensible. Although, considering the same person did the same to Rod Jenkins, not unexpected.

From: Lee Vivian Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 22-May-17




I realize Mr. Hill wasn't a Florida state ranked compound shooter, but I seem to have read he won a few State and National Field Shoots, and took a fair amount of critters in his lifetime.

To denigrate and insult who most consider a legend merely because that person has neither the patience, perseverance, or ability to copy a certain shooting style is reprehensible. Although, considering the same person did the same to Rod Jenkins, not unexpected.

From: dean
Date: 22-May-17




'reprehensible' You can call it nasty, or you can call it dumb, you can call it bogus, or you can call it slow learner, you can even call it doesn't know what theys talking about, but ya doesn't has to call it "reprehensible".

From: Steve Moore
Date: 23-May-17




This makes perfect sense:

Shoots a long bow for a few weeks, watches a few youtube video and all of a sudden internet warrior going savage on two of the best longbowmen of the last century. Now I am tempted to buy this misty dawn from the classifieds to save it from this fate.

A good student would learn the concept of the what the master is saying and not get caught up in the minutia or the semantics of the lesson. Maybe pay less attention to what they are saying and more too what they are doing. Some of the best practitioners of their crafts/sports would have a hard time explaining "how" they do what they do.

From: YanYeoman
Date: 23-May-17




And we should also remember that Ted Nugent did indeed start by playing covers. The first album by 'The Amboy Dukes'included covers from Big Joe Williams, Ashford & Simpson, Cream, and Pete Townsend. :) Yup....Nugent covered Ashford & Simpson!

From: K Cummings
Date: 23-May-17




I am so sorry to hear of JINKSTER's passing.

Please extend my heartfelt condolences to his family.

:(

KPC

From: RonG
Date: 23-May-17




I have a video of Howard actually shooting an apple off of some ones head using a broadhead, the whole video is shot from the side so no editing can be done, he split the apple then he walked up pulled his arrow and shook hands with the brave one.

I believe what you are seeing in the later versions are mainly due to regulations not allowing someone to endanger another in a Hollywood stunt, they probably had Howard pulling out his hair following rules and regulations.

This is my reasoning after watching Howard shoot many arrows, He didn't get where he was by trickery.

From: dean
Date: 23-May-17




I have an apple tree. I drew a face on a half gallon plastic milk jug that looked awfully familiar to my former department manager. I put an apple, a rotten one that a squirrel chewed on, on top of the milk jug, backed off 18 yards. Oh, that poor milk jug, amazing how often one can shoot five inches low. Then I asked a neighbor that was watching if I could shoot an apple off his head with a HTM tipped arrow. He said 'sure, along as you are using that kid point.' No, I did try, pretty sure it would have left a mark.

From: RonG
Date: 23-May-17




Dean, Exactly!!!!!no matter who you are there is always that chance. Once in a while I will pin an apple to a pistol form on my hay bails and don't get back any further than 15 feet and will nail that apple most of the time but never hit the form. I find it a lot of fun, I haven't been able to talk my neighbor into holding the apple for me, no matter how many times I hit it....LOL!

From: Roadrunner
Date: 23-May-17




Interesting thread to watch since I started practicing this shooting style about 10 months ago. I tried to do as suggested on the video, which was to practice form A LOT before aiming at anything. I have enjoyed it a lot.

From: dean
Date: 23-May-17




'Didn't try.' My luck I would have hit him in the butt. Just like that one branch that you would want to shoot around and not hit. Just thinking about missing a stick to shoot a target or game is almost a guarantee that the stick will be hit more often than missed.

From: Jinkster
Date: 24-May-17




TTT!

The responses here are entertaining.

From: 4nolz@work
Date: 24-May-17




FYI bowyers

From: K Cummings
Date: 24-May-17




JINKSTER!!!! YOU'RE ALIVE!!!!

I am so happy to see you posting, and that you have not passed from this life!

I know when you got your ASLs you said you were going to "KEEP THEM BOTH & NEVER...put either one up for sale."

And you gave your "solemn word I never will so?...They are both mine to have, hold and cherish until I hit dirt."

Then when I saw your last remaining ASL in the classifieds, I thought surely you had passed...

Whew!!!

KPC

From: dean
Date: 24-May-17




This Hill thing, some can and some cannot, those who change it, do not stick with it long enough, or those who try to short cut the development never can and should just do what they do. Most who give up never get to the place where they can see or utilize the advantages, which will mostly, only prove them selves in hunting situations that a target based shooter cannot conceive. The general come back is always the same, and references are made to target shooting that is a long way departed formidable and variable hunting circumstances. Taking cheap shots is cheap, but I can tell you that soccer sucks, it's like slow hockey and should never be played by anyone.

From: Orion Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 24-May-17




I dunno. I've said this before on this and related threads. Hill bows are fun to shoot and hunt with, but there's no particular mistique in shooting them. They don't "demand" a particular shooting style. I've been shooting sticks for more than 60 years now, and don't shoot my Hills any different than my other bows.

Sure, a straight gripped bow is a bit different than a pistol grip recurve, but it's not too hard to adjust to the difference. Swing draw. Sure. Can do that with any bow. Or not do it with any bow. I tend to hold the bow arm out and draw the string back to my face. Sometimes I use a push/pul draw similar to what Fred Bear used. Really doesn't matter. Whatever floats your boat.

From: Jinkster
Date: 24-May-17




From: 4nolz@work
Date: 24-May-17




Quit digging.

From: Jinkster
Date: 24-May-17




Quit filling. LOL!

From: Orion Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 24-May-17




He would have made a better shot had he used a swing draw. :>) Good entertainment.

From: Lee Vivian Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 25-May-17




"Quit filling!" HUGH??????

From: dean
Date: 25-May-17




Boy did I have the bow for Jinks. A nice Jennings compound was left at my door. I put a free sign on it a few weeks ago, and it was gone. The next day it was back by my door with a snotty assed, "thanks but no thanks" note on it. I throw it in my trash can with it sticking out with the free sign showing. We have mechanical pick up cans. The garbage guy came, leaped out of the truck, pulled out the Jennings, tried to pull it back, then tossed back in my garbage can, and dumped it all into the garbage hauler. I don't think that cat will be back anytime soon.

From: Hal9000
Date: 25-May-17




was it an old Jennings Elephant Bow?

From: 4nolz@work
Date: 25-May-17




Everyone knows Howard Hill was desperate for attention.He'd probably dominate 2-3 forums if he was alive now.

From: stykshooter Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 25-May-17




Desperate for attention....

Dominate 2 or 3 forums.....

That sounds familiar.

Difference is that everyone knew who Hill was, without the internet. If it wasn't for the internet some of these modern attention seekers would rust away in obscurity.

From: dean
Date: 25-May-17




Good guess on the elephant bow, a local Jennings dealer sold some of them years back. I am not real sure what the pull weight was, I shot it a few times, it shot 28" 2317s pretty well, not sure what it was set at, it felt like perhaps around 120 pounds to me. It did not look like it ever had much use.

From: dean
Date: 25-May-17




Year ago I went to a shoot where they had an elephant bow screwed up tight. I drew it back a few times left hand and right hand just to see how many ways I could draw it, like I did with my heavy Hills. I often thought that I was nuts for working so hard to be able handle extra heavy Hills, any bow like those Elephant bows that requires that much strain to make an arrow fly is just plain nuts.

From: Jinkster
Date: 25-May-17




Interesting. :)





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