The DMS riser is a new offering from the well known italian company Spigarelli. With the DMS they expand their lineup of risers to five models. The other options are the barebow heavyweight 650 Club, the standard barebow riser logically named Barebow, the olympic riser Vision and the odd-bird Revolution. The DMS is partly based on an old design from the mid 1990:s called Dal Monte, which was a well known odd kid in that time. The DMS for sure fills an empty space in the market especially for barebow archers, now that the popular bridged riser Green Horn Sirius is out of production.
The riser tested. Here with a Gillo grip instead of the original.
I have been shooting the DMS riser during a month and I have tested it both outdoor and indoor, on flat target archery and on field courses. My main discipline is WA Barebow (stringwalking) and I have mostly been shooting the riser barebow during the test. When testing risers, I think barebow is a very good discpipline. You really feel the risers behaviour in more detail than in recurve. With a good stabilizer and dampener setup, you can mask a lot of problems. The riser was shot with two different limb pairs, Uukha VX1000 68/36 and Samick Masters Max 70/36. The Uukhas are rather damp and soft in feel and the Masters Max set is more traditional carbon-wood-ish with a direct and crisp shot feedback. I have also shot some sessions with Win&Win EX Prime and SF Elite+ limbs. I find it important to test risers with some different limb setups, since the limbs have a very important role in the feel.
The DMS is a cnc machined front bridged aluminium riser with all the expected features such as tiller and lateral adjustment, multiple weight and stabilizer attachment holes, clicker and sight mounts and so on. On the lower half there are two circular mount points for Spigarellis standard side adjustable barebow weights, also standard on the Vision, 650 Club and Barebow riser.
Finish and fittings
The DMS looks like a classic Spigarelli in terms of finish. That means a polished machined surface treated with hard semi- gloss anodizing in a range of different target colours. There are some very minor tool marks here and there, but the finish is overall is very nice, just as we learned to expect from Spigarelli. Their finish is among the best in the business in my opinion, as long as you like that classic cnc machined look. The riser lacks stainless steel bushings in the stab holes. This means that you will damage the anodizing when you add stabilizers or weights, no matter how careful you are. And there’s always the risk of wear with time, even if that takes a lot of messing around with the threads before it gets a real problem. I have had risers without bushings for many years and I actually never experienced any problems. But a quick detach system for the long rod, or just keeping the normal V-bar on between sessions is recommended to avoid wear.
The tiller adjustment is made with the same well proven expanding limb bolts that we have seen on the Spigas and many other brands during the last 15 years. Too loosen it, you loosen a cone shaped locking bolt at the back. When the cone is screwed out of the internal counterpart in the 4-split expander tiller bolt, that bolt gets free to move. The bolts works just as they are supposed to, even if the expander construction, and the splitted stainless steel bolt always brings a small risk of the steel wearing the aluminium. If some metal fragments comes loose, you might get trouble, especially if you have the habit of changing the tiller/draw weight with the bow strung. Spigarelli and many other manufacturers have however used the construction for decades and problems rarely occur. I personally prefer the classic Hoyt style bolt-on-bolt locking system since it is simpler and still just as effective. But for 2017 even Hoyt leaves their bolt-on-bolt system and goes to the expander solution, so I might be worrying without reason. So far, all my bows with expander bolts have been hassle free through years of use.
The limb bolt with alignment lines
The grip is the best I have tried from Spigarelli so far and it is several levels better than the older wooden grip delivered with the earlier versions of Barebow and Vision. The grip is still wood, but it's a lot better shaped now. With the older grip, there were often problems with noises and rattling/moving grips and the shape varied from grip to grip. You always had to add glue, silicon or double sided tape to eliminate the cracks and noises. But not anymore. The grip's fit on the riser is perfectly snug and it just sits there, as it is supposed to do and all grips I have seen so far have been identical in shape. The grip is neutral and the height is about medium, however tending slightly to the lower side. I think this grip will suit a lot of archers. So far, everybody that tried the riser also liked the grip. If you don´t, or if you have your own preferences in grip choice, it´s very easy to change to whatever you prefer. The grip fitting is somewhere near market standard and my guess is that most standard grips will fit. I haven´t measure it, but the old Hoyt grip that I use on some other bows fit just fine.
The lateral adjustment consists of a snugly rotating brass dock for the ILF nut and then one sideward pushing screw on each side, which are then locked by two small outer locking screws. To adjust, you first need to take the small locking screws out and then you can access the hex head of the pusher screws. You move the brass dock´s position right or left by loosing the screw on one side and tighten it on the other side. Very simple and effective. You soon notice that also small adjustments, like half a turn, gives a rather big effect on alignment, like with most ILF with similar systems. But it is dead easy to align the riser with a new set of limbs as soon as you get used of how to do. The downside of the system is the small locking screws. They are VERY small and also very easy to lose. Don´t even think about dropping them on a lawn and find them again. You will be on your knees searching those small items for sure if you do. I would prefer two slightly bigger or longer pusher screws instead and by that eliminating the need of locking screws, like we see on CD Archery’s risers for example. I never had any of those screws coming loose despite the lack of extra screws. The system do however work great and locks very securely, and the extra work with the small extra screws is only a problem if you try different pair of limbs often. When you are done with lateral tuning and are happy with your setup it´s definitely a set and forget system. I ended up keeping the small screws removed during the tuning process, and then putting them back again when I was done.
No matter the amount of screws, I find this type of lateral adjustment to be the best there is. It´s so easy and logical to adjust and it makes lateral tuning a breeze. What I do miss however is some kind of scale or grading for the limbs side adjustment. If you shoot the riser with only one pair of limbs and are happy with your setting, the current lack of indicators is no issue, but if you want to test some new limbs or new setting and be able to get back to the previous, it would be really handy with some kind of indicator scale. As it is now, I would make my own lines with a pen or even a knife to be able to get back into the same position.
Spiga added a reference cross near the outer ends of the riser to help with alignment. Unfortunately it is very hard to see the vertical line when the bow is lined up with the string and I would prefer two lines slightly spread apart instead.
Part 2 - Performance, balance and feel
I find the DMS to be surprisingly neutral in feel. I expected it to shoot stiff, like most bridged risers, but if feels neither soft or stiff, but rather medium in that aspect. Spigas risers have always been on the softer side of the market, and this is too, atleast if you compare it to risers in it´s own bridged segment. It´s not as soft in feeling as a Spiga Barebow or Vision, but it is nowhere near as stiff as the segment classic Green Horn Sirius or the Hoyt Tec risers. Compared to the sporty Sirius and the really stiff Hoyt Tecs the DMS has a portion of comfortable flex built in. That means that despite the stiffening bridge design, it still feels like a Spigarelli. I am not sure why, but my guess is that Spigarelli don´t use any high levels of heat hardening of the alu block during manufacturing.
Just by looking at the geometry and the construction, its no hard guess that the comfort of the shot is mainly generated by some flex near the limb pockets while the center section near the grip stays solid and stiff through the shot. This creates an interesting combination of characters. The shot feels very solid, but without the crispy, almost aggressive feedback that many associate with bridge riser designs. The shot is still comfortable and smooth, and you can't feel any wobble or riser flex going into the hand whatsoever. This means that the shot is more damp than lively, but not so damp so all the life in the shot disappears.
Shot feedback is always a matter of personal taste. In my opinion the riser have an excellent balance between shot feedback and dampening. Many archers compare the DMS to the Green Horn Sirius as they share looks in terms of geometry. That assumption is purely based on photos, I would say. In reality the DMS is a rather different animal than the Sirius with less aggressive limb pocket angles and a shot that is a lot smoother. It also has a noticeably kinder draw force curve in comparison to the Sirius. I find the Sirius to create some stack, almost no matter what limbs you use, and I always shoot it at, or near, the minimum setting on the tiller bolts. If you crank the Sirius up, you get some serious stacking and you add quite a few pounds to the marked info on the limbs. The DMS is comfortable through almost all the possible tiller settings. The pound goes up ofcourse, but for me at close to 29 inch draw, I don´t get that much stack until I am just below the maximum setting on the bolts. And it is still definately shootable at that setting. To sum up the comparison between those two, the DMS is way more comfortable and smooth to shoot and draw, while the Green Horn feels more sporty and aggressive both in the draw and in the shot reaction. There are similarities, but not as much as some comments indicate.
The sight window is stretched all the way to the front of the bridge, making it very long compared to pretty much all other risers I have seen. This might cause clearance problems in some cases, especially if the tune is bad. If the arrow’s noding is put wrong, there is just more riser to hit. I find it difficult to get perfect clearance with long and heavy indoor arrows with big vanes. With outdoor carbon arrows and small vanes, I have no issues.
The power delivery of the DMS is on the low side. Not necessary speed wise, but the riser delivers less power into the arrow in a dynamic spine aspect than what I expect from the draw weight . By just looking at the geometry and construction, I would guess that the bridge design would make the riser stiff and therefore deliver more power into the arrow than non bridged designs. But despite what would be logical, I almost need to go one step softer in spine than what I usually do, despite setting the bow to the exact same draw weight as my reference bows. To use the same arrows, I need to add around 1- 1.5 pounds of draw weight. I am not sure why, but it might be the same reason that the riser is so comfortable. I think there is some flex going on in the outer, thinner parts of the riser, and there you pay for comfort with a loss of power. That is no problem, but for me, it means that I can´t get a perfect tune with any of current arrow sets. Speed-wise the riser shoots about the same as most risers. It´s neither fast or slow, but pretty normal in that aspect.
When shooting barebow, the bridge design really excels in terms of balance since the bridge itself brings the center of mass forward. For archers that prefer a lighter weight riser for barebow, a bridged riser like the DMS is a very good choice. I would not rate the DMS higher than the excellent Sirius, but it is up there with the best in terms of “built in balance” . Bringing the center of gravity forward creates a stability that you just can't get in a riser with more traditional geometry. Vertically, the DMS is light in the upper and lower limb pocket sections. The weight is centered around the pivot point, making the riser very twist free out of the hand, but it is also a bit unstable in twisting motions along the horizontal centerline (as in wobbling the top and bottom to the left or right while at full draw) because of the light perimeter weight. I would personally prefer a bit more material near the limb pockets, resulting in a stiffer overall flex, a higher level of power delivery and a higher amount of stability along the horizontal centerline. But that would come at the price of making it too heavy for most olympic archers I guess. I think that a barebow specific heavier DMS could be a real winner.
The DMS is compatible with the weight system used in the Vision, 650 and BareBow. One or two steel weights can be attached to the riser in two big circular holes in the lower section and are then locked with one or two screws through drilled holes at the back. The weights are side adjustable in a number of steps right to left, by choosing one of the different threaded holes. The weights are not included in the package. They must be bought separately as an accessory. I just got news from Spigarelli that they are producing a special weight kit for barebow use of the DMS riser. I haven´t tried it yet, but a photo of the new weight system is attached to the post.
Holes for adding the classic Spiga barebow weights.
The new weight system from Spigarelli, in a prototype version.
I wish that Spigarelli offered some kind of stock solution for adding weights in the three front stabilizer threaded holes. Even if a low weight placement creates a higher grade of horizontal line stability, the geometry of this risers makes it possible to add barebow weights in places where you normally can´t. The front bridge is an excellent place to add weights, since you get a big effect in balance in relation to the added mass. You would also create more moment of inertia of that mass in comparison to a position in the center of the riser.
The riser is delivered with a pre-mounted built in magnetic rest. It is a very sleek rest that works great for olympic recurve or close to noch three-under anchoring. For stringwalking however, the built in rest is too stiff. You need some dampening downwards when you get vertical noding in the arrow when crawling down the string. My recommendation is to remove the stock rest and replace it with the filler piece instead, and use any other rest that have softer flex. The wide/long aiming window and the bridge limits the choice of arrow rests for the WA Barebow crowd. The room within the 12,2cm rule is not great. For wraparound magnetic rests, you need something slim, like the Gabriels to be sure that you are staying on the right side of the line rule-wise. Rumours say that Spigarelli is working on a slim magnetic rest specially designed for the DMS riser and WA Barebow rules.
The built in rest can be replaced with a "filler plate" seen here.
Overall I really like this riser. The Spigarelli DMS is a plug and play riser with extras. Like everything else out there, it’s not perfect, but it is a great addition to the market for either recurve archers that wants to try something different, or barebow archers that search the balance of a bridged design. If the rumours are true, Spigarelli will further enhance their offer for barebowers with some interesting weight and rest options too. If you get the chance, I recommend you to try this riser. You might end up wanting one..."
Sorry jk, I'm with Andy Man. This relates to an ASL (Hill style long bow) exactly how???? Didn't read the whole "book" just skimmed, didn't see ONE reference to an ASL.
jk, I was so impressed with review that I ordered two. Just kidding, I just tossed a perfectly good compound, refer to holy than thee thread, in the trash. If it needs a wrench, screw driver or any tool to make it work right, it's wrong.
Come on, the point is that ASLs are seemingly simple, compared to all that stuff. Which isn't entirely true, and a lot of that stuff makes life easier. So if you shoot string walking style, you can correct left rights with the button, but on an ASL, good luck.
After reading that novel its no wounder why i shoot ASL's. I don't need any tools to work on the bow and i for sure don't need a measuring tape at all.
The other big reason i love ASL's and other one piece bows is i don't have to mess with limb bolts, plungers,etc.....i was done with that when i stopped shooting wheel bows.
You can make something as simple, or as complicated as you want, it's up to you. A metal riser bow with replaceable limbs is no more complicated than a wood riser bow with replaceable limbs. What you attach to them is purely personal. I happen to like metal risers and am personally not traumatized by adjustment. It has its place in archery since metal risers were used.
Somehow people like to dissect everything from arrow holders to adjustable rests as the devil's spawn. Not so at all. If you like longbows and nothing else, that's cool, but it really doesn't elevate you beyond the guy working with a new Spigarelli riser and ILF limbs. It just means you like something different.
I'm going to disagree with you, I don't piddle and Fiddle with my Hill bows, Just string them up and shoot them! There is absolutely no need to do all that crap.
Instructions from John Schulz on tuning a 66" Legend. Set the brace height at 5& 7/8" to 6", set the nocking point so the arrow is up 1/16" and then shoot it. Pick the correct spine wood arrow, then tune yourself and leave the bow alone. That makes those bows the most difficult to tune of all, because you only have yourself to blame. And yes, over the years, I have said some terribly rude things to me.
There is a desire to do those things for some people, whether or not you like it or don't do it. This sport is much bigger than any longbow, or any recurve...or any one style. For pete's sake, this sounds like an elementary school sometimes. And fact is, there are some of us who can do both rather easily, so I think we need to get over ourselves.
George, a sense of humor helps sometimes. And the world, like archery, has people who like broad and artistic strokes as well as people who count angels on heads of pins.
This thread isn't about "style" or longbow Vs recurve. It simply reminds us that some folks see the world through micrometers.
If I want to mess with a stubborn machine, I can go work on my '76 BMW. Yes, you all need to settle down, almost makes me wish that I had another compound to through in the trash. And no, the garbage guy didn't want it either.
That's as Frisky would say 'bogus', compounds ain't bows. Nope, I set the brace right in the middle, the nocking point 1/8" and shoot. That is exactly why I like ASL longbows. Something a non-Hill shooter would understand. I think that may be why some guys have so much trouble with Hill style bows, they ain't Hill style shooters and want to complicate the hell out of everything. "Get over it", that is new cliche' that is going around.
I don't shoot hill style but what I shoot is no more complicated. I set my Nick and go shoot. My recurve and longbow all shoot the same Nick height. Not sure what type my sentman is. It's sort of a reverse handle set back riser with extended fades. Limbs are straight and form a d when strung. Reason I'm not sure is there's a little whoop do so I in the extended fades as they come from the riser. Oh well, whatever the type it shoots good,lol.
Really?...and like there's any less thought or effort that goes into what one would have to peck out on a keyboard to explain what woods, what cores, or what glues and epoxies where used in their ASL?...or?...what the handle length was or what side of the bow it was on or whether to leather wrap, go with beaver tail or just leave it bald or?...what the stack up was and how they calculated for it and whether they used parallel, tapered or reverse taper cores and/or?...how the bow was tilled out...how and why they shaped the tips they way they did and?...how many strands of what they strung it with and then did they back it and if so with what?...snake skin, canvas, linen?...and I'm sure I missed a few other things as well but?...you get my drift.
But the real difference is?...for some folks?...a long shot is 80 feet while for others it's 80yds. ;)
A while back I gave out two recurves, a Slimline Wing and a Kodiak Special. I got both bows back, both bows are great shooters. Each of these individuals bought new bows one a recurve and the other a longbow. The basic recurve and longbow both have somethings going for them, but mostly, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean it isn't valid. The compound likely has got more people into traditional archery in the last twenty years than anything else. I have personally seen over a dozen folks here in my little rural area of Pa. come back to traditional bows....some are new to recurves and longbows but got the archery bug through compound bows since that is all they ever knew. If you want to convert anyone, or at least help them decide, then being a condescending knee cap doesn't work. Maybe a little understanding would go a long way. I honestly would sooner shoot with some of those compound shooters than some of these boneheads here.
I think most compound shooters should shoot crossbows, considering some of the lob shots that I have seen. Then all they need to do is claim that their widdo arm hurts. I am not being serious exactly. But I remember well when a bunch of gun hunters here all got Whitetail Hunters and thought their butts didn't stink. Any body could bow hunt with a compound, the end product was arrogant newbies that pushed a bunch of people off of the land that they were hunting. A percentage of the compound hunters still carry on like that today, but now at the cost of other compound hunters. I don't have to like compounds, nor do I have to defend their use, this is a traditional archery site. Oh yes, I really have seen 'modern hunters, xbows and compounds, take 80 yard shots at deer out in the middle of fields. There seems to be no maximum length or lack of day light that many will not shoot when a buck has a good set of antlers. I have talked a number of compound shooters into going trad, when they get their skills developed, their attitudes change as well.
Sorry Boxcall I don't fiddle at all. I put catwhiskers on, put a nock point on, set the brace where I like them and go shoot. 9 chances outa 10 the tune is even right since I buy the correct spine of wood or aluminum and tune bows n not arrows. If not I take another 10 minutes to tune it. After that the bow never needs any kinda fiddling. My Morrison hasn't been touched other than to shoot it and clean it for 8 years.
With single string archers being a dying breed?...wouldn't it be more beneficial for us to focus on our similarities rather than the differences in our choice of bow types?
I own two top tier Border bows and love shooting them both...tbat said?....I'm currently eyeballing a 7 Lakes Hill style bow because...
A: I've never owned a HH style bow and...
B: I love experiencing all bows and?...
C: I have a bunch of wood arrows and a tube full of Foresters tapered mahogany shafts I'd lime to fletch up and shoot someday.
So?...if you truly love archery?...why mock any style or type of bow?
Single string archers are not a dieing breed. The breed was near extinction in late 70s n early 80s. Due to habitat expansion ,trad shoots,its grown in numbers since.
Single string archers are not a dieing breed. The breed was near extinction in late 70s n early 80s. Due to habitat expansion ,trad shoots,its grown in numbers since.
GLF...I work in a shop with 110 coworkers...if this were the 70's or even the 80's...there'd be about a dozen other coworkers that had some sort of stickbow home in a closet...but no one else in my shop owns let alone shoots a longbow or recurve of any type.
The original compound was a study done using mechanical leverages like a TEREX crane done by the engineering department at ISU. I use to work there and knew the head of the engineering department. The Allen patent was stolen from those files when one the family attended ISU. I was told that the college viewed as an experiment and the Allen family had the patent pending status long before the college had heard about it. I dislike anything that separates the person from the challenge. As an example, I can play the most virtuoso rendition of Bach on a Stradivari violin that you will ever hear. Just give me a minute to find the CD of Heifetz. I shot a couple of compounds way back when. Stupid dumb hand held crane things, good thing I had my union card for operating machinery at the time.
Home in closet and out shooting are two very different things. I know in Ohio I shot a shoot every weekend and saw 3 Roger rothaar n his son were 2 of em.
Look at the numbers at shoots now and the number of Bowers and their waiting times. 10 years ago I could buy with a 8 week wait,try that now. Our numbers are going up fast. I don't dog compounds because archery is where it is today because of them. And even trad archery since most were at first compound converts.
I remember the first compound to come to my home town, an Allen, 50% faster than any recurve. I had my Jack Howard, the other guys had their Herters. We went behind Christian School to do a flight test. I had 2016s and 2018s, Herters guys had Herters farbenglass arrows. The Allen cp guy had 2016s. he did not think that the 350 yards would be enough space so we had to line to the alfalfa field beyond. We all shot our arrows for distance. The slowest bow there was the Allen compound. Then some years later one of the guys got a Rigid all metal compound. We were gitty with excitement over the short little machine. He drew a crowd for his first shot, old women were peeking out there windows, some had to take pictures, what a day. Then it was time for the shot we all got behind him for safety reasons KABANG, leaves fell from the trees, pigeons, panicked and flew out of the church steeples, some of the guys hit the dirt. The loudest bow in history. How could anything make that much noise and not break? Thankfully a few weeks later, it did and he went back to hunting with the Root recurve that I sold him.
Few compound shooters have the physical strength to pull and hold a 60# longbow for a second, much less pull, hold on point, and release accurately. Sad :-)
It won't be long now and Jinkster is going to be one of those bent arm snap shooters, flinging those meandering cedar snakes at stumps out in the back forty.
" Not so at all. If you like longbows and nothing else, that's cool, but it really doesn't elevate you beyond the guy working with a new Spigarelli riser and ILF limbs. It just means you like something different."
If it isn't a crutch, why is he using the extra gear? I know for a fact that the advertisers for these miracle products don't share your opinion, George, that all gear is equal.
I actually really like ASLs, but if I didn't have the time to mess around with them to get them shooting the way I wanted a bow to shoot, or for any other reason, I would just say I don't have the time. I wouldn't run down people who take the hard way. Of course buying an ASL doesn't mean you are taking the hard way if you simply don't bother to go too hard at getting results. It can be a pose.
But the same results, consistently with lesser gear is impressive to me, and I won't run it down.
I don't sit up at night worrying about how many new people we are getting into archery. If there were ten times the people it would just mean more access fees. I think it would go a lot further to get ten times the people into church searching for moral guidance than shooting bows, which is kinda a time waster. It's OK if I am the only person doing it.
Terex cranes have gotten more sophisticated over the years as well, but they are still cranes. There is a reason that motors and power boats are not allowed in Quetico, it is the only way to keep all that modern junk and the people that use out of the wilderness area. This is the why I like asl longbow thread. All of the why hate asl longbows and love 90% let off wheelly gizmos have gotten lost somehow and found their way here.
That said?...I've watched it many times before in the past where the first few times I viewed it?...I watched and listened as intently as when I was 8-10 years old parked in front of our B&W Magnavox TV for an episode of Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom however?...as I have grown in my archery over many decades?...I find myself emphatically disagreeing with Mr. Shulz and for the following reason....
Right at the end?..he states that HH told him (like he was telling us) that...
"The first thing you need to do is make up your mind if you're going to hunt or shoot targets!"
where now?...I think...really?...from the same guy who spilled 190 some 1st place field trophies on his coffee table who also was the first white man to kill 3 elephants with a bow and took over 430 large game animals?
See what I mean?...cause if I was there?...I'd ask him why he's giving me advice that he himself doesn't follow.
And this?...is why I'm extremely hesitant to put any mortal man on a pedestal...'cept Fred Bear!..and even he just gets a slight boost up!LOL!
But Fred was different as compared to HH as Fred had this sense of humility about him that HH seemed to lack...completely...where I would've shook his hand with a smile and said my goodbyes shortly after the 190 some 1st place only buttons came tumbling out of the shoe box as I have no room for narcissistic folks like that in my life.
But the respect I do hold for HH?...surrounds him sharing his passion for promoting the sport (and past-time hobby) of archery unto the great unwashed masses.
He and Mr. Shulz were instrumental at teaching hungry working class Americans how to put meat on the table with bow and arrow and in that?...I do put him on a pedestal and hold them both in the highest regard.
I love all forms and styles of archery...but there was one I haven't truly experienced in full yet...so now this is headed my way and should arrive sometime early nest week...I'm excited! :)
There you go John taking all of this too serious. I actually let compound hunters that hunt responsibly use my stuff. But I have seen some that hope that they have the range of a rifle when a good buck is out in a field. Of course, I have witnessed recurves shooters try the same thing years ago. When you look at the modern crossbow, it is a magical engineering master piece. This trad stuff is getting too hard and my widdo shoulder hurts, I should go to Cabelas and check out the crossbows.
Bill, I think the context of that was more related to the target archery styles and philosophies of the 50s and probably referring in Johns time of compounds with bow sights on them, using a target style static form. Both John Schulz and Howard Hill preferred a shooting style that allowed the ability to take more varied shots. While Hill and Schulz did a lot of target pounding when Schulz knew him, John believed that the emphasis and shooting goals were more adjusted towards making varied hunting shots than total target scores. I have talked to John many times and Howard Hill once, in person Howard Hill was anything but egoistical or narcissistic. He was trying to make a name for himself, but he went through his own stages of archery. I think some of the aspects of his final form and shooting style still had some of the elements of his target shooting style. However, after his target years he also wrote that he found it better to shoot at game in a faster tempo than a slower one, and that one needed to work at being fluid and fast, so that it was a natural part of the shooters form and not an exceptional hurried thing. You can shoot a longbow slow of course, being able to shoot fluid and faster at game does come in handy, especially when bunny hoppers are involved. I would bet one fried bunny that after a while you will modify your bow arm to something similar to what John suggests in the video.
dean?...thanks man and your knowledge seems far deeper than my superficial meanderings where I thank you for sharing it.
Truth be told?...I'm highly excited about having purchased this Misty Dawn J.D. Berry ASL...to an illogical degree...but I guess "Fun" is nothing you're supposed to sit back, analyze or figure out and honestly?...I'm looking forward to that...for instance?...with the riser of this ASL being cut 1/8th" Before Center?...I doubt I'll be doing any bare shafting! LOL!
I'll just be experimenting with a few point weights and rolling with what groups best and shoots too the mark.
And BTW?...here's a vid of me I uploaded 5 years ago...long before I started trying to shoot my recurves and longbows like compounds...and keep in mind?...I never owned a compound until after I shot recurves for a good 20 years...but here's how I used to shoot...
Oh, I put no one on any pedestal ever. I am friends with some of world's greatest singers and classical guitarist and even some Washington former big shots. Nobody, not even Hill or Schulz gets pedestal status, we are are all equal humans. Except for maybe Frisky, he built his own pedestal, he can be on it if he wants to.
That is faster than ever could shoot three under. There is a hole between my two upstairs windows. They are 6" apart. That happened when I tried to shoot a ball bouncing in front of my target, I was only about 15 yards off from a 12 yard shot. I had trouble lifting the arrow off the shelf. Actually that is faster than most of my right hand longbow shots and at least, twice as fast as my left hand longbow shots. Left hand target tempo with a recurve, you can see the shadows move during the process. That is when I need to make the decision am going to hunt or shoot targets. I could have a bunny dying of old age before I would get a shot off. I saw picks of me shooting my target Black Widow, the metal riser model, I looked I was about to fall over backwards. That too is a long way from where I am now.
I think that one should shoot the bow that best matches their shooting style. An ASL for most that prefer a straight armed and straight up shooting style would more than likely be the wrong choice. There those that advocate using an ASL using the more target style methods, but when I see those pics and videos, I cannot help but to think that it would better if that shooting style would be better for a nice takedown recurve. When I have talked to longbow shooters following that advice, without fail they all say that are actually more accurate shooting their recurves, but they just like Hill style longbows.
You will not need to squeeze the resin out of the riser on that bow, it will not kick hard if you allow a slight elbow flex and keep the grip on the light side, just let bow settle into the bow hand. I would not shoot it three under, however, middle finger where ever the draw hand settles comfortably should be the most repeatable. I would not worry about the point on increase, because compared to those Border bows shooting split with the longbow will probably give you the same point on as the Border bows shooting three under.
I have seen two cases here that the guys declared they could never shoot that Hill way with their longbows later. They liked their longbows and kept shooting them, in both cases two years down the road they were both shooting like they took lessons from John Schulz. There is a reason for that, it is the most comfortable and natural way to shoot a straight gripped longbow. They made the change and did not even realize that they were a state of evolution with their shooting style. They got caught up in the Hill thing because of the lost deer and arrow failures that both experienced using light carbon arrows with mechanical heads. Lamont Granger sold them some 140 grain Hills, they sharpened them per instructions from the Craig pamphlet and declared that they had found the best deer killing broadhead ever.
Thanks dean...great stuff...I have only 2 types of glue-on BH's for woodies...110gr Magnus 2-Blade and 160gr S.T.O.S. heads.
The Forrester Tapered Mahoganies I have are spined at 43#...I'm wondering if they'll be suitable for this 47# string follow ASL....if not?....I'm going with some real heavy wood shafting and already thinking of calling Kevin for some Hard Rock Maple or Red Balau shafting but first I want to get my head wrapped around what spine and point weight this Bow prefers...but I would like a spine stiff enough to carry the 160gr point weights.
Depends on how much shy of center the rest is, but around 60# and start full length should get you there. Jus my opinion, but I'd go with a lighter wood like POC, spruce, or Doug fir. With any of those three and 160s your getting to still end up over 600 gr.
I disagree Longdude, I have played around some with hard wood arrows. Unless you get them right on the beans with an ASL they can fly loggy. You may want to call Wapiti and go with a set of cedars to start off with. If I remember right your draw with a recurve is around 27", I may be wrong on that. You will find with the straight grip that bow arm and bow shoulder will settle a bit over time, which is the proper thing to do with a straight grip ASL. I would cut the arrows no more than an inch beyond your draw. I like net length for target work. I make a set every year, then turn them into rabbit blunts in the fall. There is a remarkable thing that happens with cedar arrows when they are as short as possible. One would think that a net length arrow would act way stiff, not so. For some reason they have the abilitiy to spring clear of the bow. Sometimes I drop 5 pounds spine for net length and other times not. If you are worried about penetration on deer don't, I have had pass throughs with everything from Hunters Heads to 160 grain single bevel custom Hills to 145 grain Ribtecs with a bow that is 50 pounds at 26 inches and 5/8" out side of center using 27" cedar arrows. If your desire for such a heavy arrow is eliminate hand shock, don't worry that bow have minimal shock, just don't strangle it and allow the bow arm to take a minor flex against the straight grip. I find that extra long arrows can be more influenced by shooting variations than wood arrows that are short as possible. You can try your hardwoods you have, I would cut them to match your draw ans tune the spine with point weight. If you need some 145 grain Ribtecs or 190 Ribtecs because you spent too much on that bow I can send some your way. Do not be surprized at all if you find that a 28" 50 spine Wapiti with a 145 or 160 grain head is the perfect fit. If in doubt, you can send me the bow and state your real longbow draw length and I set you up with your first set, I probably have something that will work out of it, but it may take me a while.
"If in doubt, you can send me the bow and state your real longbow draw length and I set you up with your first set, I probably have something that will work out of it, but it may take me a while."
Appreciate the offer but I think I'll take a pass on sending you my new too me bow for set-up services! LOL!
A few years back I made up these doug firs for my American Elm Holmegaard Selfbow...that had no shelf...
Where a year or so later?...I took delivery of a Falco Force D-Longbow I custom ordered from Estonia...where I also found it's very possible to bare shaft tune wood arrows....
And while I appreciate your offer?...I think I "Got This" ;)
I would have gotten it back to by deer season. I sure you can do it yourself. I like doug firs myself. For me and with the arrrangemnet that I have with Surewood they weigh almost the exact same as my 1918s. Most of the guys that I make arrows for prefer my cedars, so I always have a variety of cedar shafts available. I am not in the arrow making business, I charge nothing. It is just something I like to do.
Presumably some pretty serious shooting, with good results A La Jinkster above, can be done with a floating anchor, as warbows of the ELB or Japanese type seem to have used them, and there was a lot more than filling the freezer at stake.
I'm curious about those bows, there are some pictures online of guys shooting warbows pretty well, and not in the clout format, but on targets at practical distances. For something like the Big Five, or just super large game in general, a warbow would be a practical possibility. Rather than just upping draw weight to a point where only a few people can manage it. Don't like your current short draw? Warbow it.
It's also possible that the benefits of accuracy from an anchor aside (and one hopes achieved somehow else), there are advantages to the draw path that doesn't get crunched to the face. As a load path it is more natural to pull straight back without reference to the face. Many archers do this, then apply the anchor as a second step.
What a Coin-incidence! LOL! So?..It's gonna be a long weekend of waiting...pretty excited about receiving this JD Berry ASL and the seller sent it priority so it's due to arrive Monday which kicked my excitement up a notch so to take my mind off of things?...I start cleaning up and digging my Forrester tapered mahoganies out and in the process noticed there was a solid build up of dust on my coin jug...and when I went to wipe it off?...that's when I noticed how heavy it had gotten...had to strain to pick it up...figuring...
My God!....I bet there $100-$200 bucks in there!...I better go cash it in before I can't lift the freaking thing!"
so I did...and came up less than $40 shy of what I paid for this Misty Dawn ASL! LOL!
I think I set a new local Coinstar Record as well! LOL!
