add 100 gr bronze inserts, see what happens.

cheaper than just one longer shaft...

worked beautifully with my 28.5" GT Trad 600s... moved group 18" to the right.

same sort of improvement with 29.5" Easton 600 skinnies.. replaced 120gr knock-off points with 140r...amazing how much just 20gr more weight up front helps.

This all applies to 60# r/d longbow, non- center with no plate and to a faster 56# extreme r/d longbow with no plate. 450+ string.

wow....600 spined shafts from a #60 longbow?

"wow....600 spined shafts from a #60 longbow?"

And they were too weak to begin with???

Should have said Stiff, not weak.

It goes to show how quick carbon recovers. I have been saying it for years. I watch a lot of people shooting and their arrow flight with carbons I always 90% of them could add a minimum of 50 grains but most could add 100 grains of point weight and would be better off. If JK's longbow is over an 1/8th and more like 3/16th from center I could see those 600's working fine. I do disagree that 20 grains makes much of a difference but if you are borderline it will. I know plenty of guys who shoot 50# LBs with .500 spine carbons with 375 grains up front and they draw 28"s and shoot a 29-30" BOP arrow. They are serious hog killers all these guys! Shawn

When I have an arrow that's too stiff, I just cut it longer, weakens up nice;-)

Shawn, sometimes it seems we just talk to the trees, and they ain't listening. As long as they've been using carbon arrows here, they still spine stiff and have to weigh down the tips. Carbons are also unique in that they don't need a lot of extra weight since they don't flex nearly as much on impact. That also goes over most heads though, so on with the questions about "what spine"?.

Im starting to see it for my self

I shoot GT from a 52 lb longbow at 29" and shoot 325 up front. They shoot like ...arrows supposed to. RC

I meant a 29" arrow drawn to 27. My post was confusing prolly..RC

So many differences between bows. My TT recurve that is around 56-57# at my draw needs 30" MFX 340 with a total of 275 up front to barrage perfectly. My Silvertip that is around 51# at my draw is too stiff with 30.5" MFX 400's with 325 up front.

Meant bareshaft. Stupid autocorrect.

I know George and I should be a little more polite in some of the threads that get going but again, some folks just do not get it. I will agree there is differences between bows but this 1/8th inch crap or 16th" that does not make a huge difference, performance wise yes and skinny strings yes but still not night and day. For the guys that know me, they know I have a couple hundred pages on different bows. Their design, how far cut past center etc. The whole kit and kaboodle. I at one time was going to publish my data but gave out a lot of info on the net. Then Stu came out with his calculator and I saw the grief it caused him and decided against it. Sorry but again he over complicated it. pdk25 I 100% agree but I had over 115 different makes and models of bows in a 10 year period and have info on them all, that is why most times I can get people balls on cause 70% of the time I have shot or owned one of the bows they ask about. Shawn

I agree with shawn. I had a girl the other week having flight issues with her arrows with 125's and I said here try these 145's and away she went good to go. It surprised a few guys. This was 20 grn. difference and worked great for her.

I agree with some tip weight, but a .600 spined shaft with over 200 grains added up front for a 60# longbow? I dunno, and I've been using carbons from my bows since the 80's. Leaves me guessing things...

Sorry I will start using paragraphs! :-) Shawn

I have only one rule for carbons - it is easy to cut them too short. Don't bite, nibble them down.

Anthony/Buglmin... fyi I didn't "add 200 grains"...the too-short GT 600s got 100grain bronze inserts in addition to the existing 125gr field points. The thing that has pleases me the most is that the extra 100gr doesn't make it any harder to shoot at 40yds.

I confused folks by, in addition to my GTs, writing about my skinny Easton Carbon One's that perform better with 140gr knockoffs (german..from Lancaster) than with Eastons own 120gr knockoffs.

We all know some longbows fling arrows differently than other bows of the same weight, which reduces the various tables and calculators to starting points.

As well, carbons are weird .

i'm basically down to one shaft for all my bows gold tip 15/35 s or .600 spine add or subtract point weight and leave them full length don't think I've cut a shaft in years unless i'm cutting off because I busted the end.

my hunting arrows finish out from 450 to 550 grains

I can move up and down the scale of various draw weights of all my bows by changing point weight. I shoot Axis Trad 'skinnies" 600's and put the full 75 grains of break off brass inserts in them. Have five differently weighted sets of rps points and have found that changing as little as even 10 grains makes a slight difference in how they fly. At 20 grains of difference, I can change draw weights among bows and use the same arrows.

That is how critical the center shot measurement is. A lot of the arguments are because of re-curves cut past center and long bows way shy of center. Carbons recover quick and get stiff very quick when cut,so they have to be loaded up until they can get proper arrows. That is not all bad a heavy FOC is O.K. put most would be happier with a flatter trajectory if they would quit buying shafts too stiff for the way their bow is made. You would be amazed at the poundage a 600 spine can be shot with no sight window cut out. We just have to keep trying to inform.>>>--------> Ken

Hey DanaC, when nibbling, how to test them? Glue in an insert, shoot, remove insert, cut, re-glue and re-shoot?

Arrows that correct themselves quicker (recover) need less weight to shoot correctly. Because they recover quicker. Carbons DON'T have to be loaded up. All they have to be is chosen correctly based on draw weight, length, etc., like any other arrow shaft.

The fact that carbon arrows recover quicker means that you CAN front load them if you wish, because they are very tolerant to weight increases.

Many many archers use 300 tip weight. I use it and like it. I also use and like many others setups. Try as many as you feel necessary. There's a lot that work just fine. Rooty

The biggest issue to me is this. A lot of folks see a 15/35 .600 spine and say well that will be too weak out of my 50# (insert bow here) even with 125 grain point, but that designation is for compounds!! Which store way more energy then "our" bows. Take that same shaft and spine it like you would an arrow for traditional bows with 26" inch support and 13" centers and see what the spine does. It goes up a whole lot. Hell I shoot a compound quite a bit because my shoulders are shot. I was shooting a .400 spine cut to 27.5"s with 190 grains of point weight out of a high performance compound set at 67#s!! Guys said you have to be weak, guess what perfect tears in paper and I could group FP's and BH's out as far as I cared to shoot. fdp correct, but the problem is guys shooting say a 40# bow should actually shoot a .700 spine carbon with 125 up front assuming a 28" draw and 29" arrow but then it may weigh only 280 grains and that is light for hunting. Shawn

I tried to write that in paragraphs and it still came out as a run on! Shawn

"Hey DanaC, when nibbling, how to test them? Glue in an insert, shoot, remove insert, cut, re-glue and re-shoot? "

Yeah, that's why there's hot melt glue! (And heavy duty candles! ;-) )

kidding aside, I remember reading in Byron Ferguson's book how he very -carefully- works his way to perfect flight. Made sense, still does.

A set of various point weights, from 100 to 250 grains, is a quick way to get close. If the best flying point is lighter than you want to use trim a little and try with your desired point weight.

People get too hung up on 20 grains of weight or 1/4 inch of arrow length. What works, works. If my arrow likes 145 grains instead of 1265, okay. If it wants to be 30.5 instead of 29.75, okay.

Shawn, you have to double-return in html for paragraphs. It isn't wysiwyg.

I don't know who said it, but the effect that the degree of center cut has on the spine needed can't be overstated. Dramatic differences. I like to bareshaft tune, although some don't. Doing so, I have found some bows require a much lighter spined arrow than I would have expected. Price with shorter draw lengths really can get away with light spines typically. A 27-28" arrow is pretty darn stiff even if 500 spine. Anyway, hope everyone has fun, and gets their setup tuned well enough to kill a turkey this spring.

Dang. People, not price.

Hey Scooby, gonna get some new shafts soon. 52 lb bear takedown, drawing 29.5", skinny string, thin leather strike plate with small bump of leather underneath, shooting 250 grain points and like a 30.5" shaft. I like Easton axis or similar skinny diameter. What's your recommendation? For what it's worth, i like broadhead tuning and am currently shooting axis 340s with 3x 5" RW feathers

All you short armed people and your little arrows :)

K, I believe something like a .470 spine would be perfect for you but since most people want to shoot the common shafts, then I believe you are border line and if stuck on those weights you would have to go with a .400 left a bit long. Although those Bears are not what I would say are high performance and they are not cut much past center. I would try a .500 spine first. If you have to shoot the .400 add another 50 grains of point weight. People say you cannot be in between spines but when draw length gets over 29"s I think it is easy to get in between spines. If I were you I would buy the new FMJ 6mm shafts as they come in a .470 spine. Perfect! Shawn

Interesting observation Sean that .60 deflection as applied to carbon arrows is for compounds. Care to explain how compound deflection is calculated, and applied as opposed to recurve/longbow deflection? That would be a very interesting piece of information.

Do you know what the deflection of a Beeman Bone Collector .340 is over a 26" span, with 2 lbs. of weight? What about an Easton A/C/C 3-71/300?

How does one cut a shaft longer? Bet you're great at evening up that one short stool leg. :)

David, my original post explained how to cut a shaft longer :-)

jk, really don't understand your post. You added 100 grains and moved the arrow a foot and a half - must have been pretty bad to start with.

You were shooting 120 or 140 and when to the work of adding 100 grain inserts??? Why didn't you just try a 225 or 250 grain head???

So you put in a 100 grain insert and start tuning with your 120 gr head. Ends up weak, YOu try a 100 head grain - weak. So, you know that 220 is weak as is 200 and you want to try a 175 grain head. "Gee, I think I'll unglue the 100 grain insert and glue the one that came with the arrows and screw in a 175 grain head."

I have never seen any use for a 100 grain insert.

On the other hand I agree with the spine. My whitetail set up is 50 pounds at 29 inches, 30 inch ACC .620 with 285 grains up front.

Complete past through with the big 160 Snuffer. Traveled 19 yards after shot.

A .340 astm equals a .280 amo and spines at 92.7 lbs

A certain politician wears ridiculously long neckties and specially taylored ultra-long suit coats in order to look bigger than everybody else. Of course, that outfit makes tiny hands look smaller. Guess he had to make a compromise.

You are correct Mike, that's what my spine tester reveals as well. Which is exactly the same deflection when converted to AMO as any other arrow shaft material. Just wondering in a way if anyone else checks them to see what the deflection actually is.

Sorry you have to do it like you would a wooden arrow as that is what recurves and longbows were origianlly designed to shoot. A .500 spine will be just that when done at 28"s and the weight applied at 14 inch center of shaft, now move the supports to 26" points and apply the weight to 13" center. It get quite a bit stiffer without a doubt, no doubt about it. I did not drag out my stuff but it is a fact. Shawn

This is what I mean: The 0.500 spine is measured from 28" posts while the 26/spine formula is for spines measured from 26" posts. A general rule of thumb to convert is to take the carbon spine and divide by 1.25 to get the equivalent wood static spine. So, 0.500/1.25 = 0.400 then use your formula 26/0.4 to get 65 pound woodies. This is why guys shoot too stiff of carbons out of their traditional bows. Shawn

Actually what you do is take the ASTM deflection, in this case .500, and multiply it by .0825. That will give you the AMO defelction as in 26" span measured at 13" on center.

That will give you a deflection of .413 in this example. The by using the old, and simple 26" divided by deflection you get the corresponding draw weight which in this case is 63lbs. when applied to an arrow shaft that 28" to the back of the point.

So... I've found this equation pretty darn accurate for converting btw the 2.

26÷(ASTM deflection× .825)= AMO spine.

Scooby, you say .470, is that ASTM i assume? Plugging into my formula gives me a 67.1 lb arrow needed. I'm here to tell you that an 11/32" Doug fir arrow, 10" rear tapered, premium 65-70 with a 160 grain point hits a solid foot right @ 20 yds, bareshaft and maybe 6-9"right shooting big Magnus 1s with 5" fletching. Maybe i pluck the crap out of my release, don't know, but i do know it's consistent.

I can't find Kelly's wood arrow chart anymore, but for a 30.5" shaft at my draw weight (i figure 55lb to make things easy) i came up with 55lb draw + 5lb(recurve) + 5lb (FF string) + 5lbs per every 50 grains over 125 and + 5lbs per inch over 28" BOP to VON. i get that i need 75-80s and they bareshaft pretty good and BH tune even better.

Extrapolating this into carbon format with me using my 250 grain heads, i get that i need roughly a 90-95lb wood shaft to shoot 250, which would equal my current .340 Easton axis, roughly.

I'm not saying anyone's wrong, that's just kinda how i interpreted everything I've read and heard and it seems to work for me. I've got some 400s that are waaay too weak, but I'd like to try some 500s just to see if I'm getting false readings.

BTW, i hate bareshaft tuning. Just seems so much easier to see good flight with BHs and big bright fletching. Takes the guessing out of the mix, IMO. it either goes left and looks ok, or goes right and wobbles all the way there

Chris, that is the formula that I was speaking of. I just happened to type .0825, rather than .825.

This is all wonderful if one neglects the fact that wood of a given spine typically flies very differently at different segments of trajectory than does (most/some) carbon of the same spine.

"Carbon" isn't as generic as is POC because different carbons are constructed differently from each other at the same spine.

In no way am I talking woodies, I am talking carbons. You can no way compare a carbon to a wood shaft or even aluminum as carbons recover way quicker then either. Just do what you want as I know what works and why. This is why Stu Miller got so much grief even from me for his calculator, as folks just do not get it no matter how you explain it and he way over complicated things! Have fun and keep shooting your over spined carbons!! Shawn

Lots of information. I use plastic wrap to temporarily install inserts. Just put a small piece on the insert as you push it in the carbon shaft. Good for a couple shots. Pull hard To remove. Trim or nibble the shaft, new plastic on insert, repeat

Scooby, I'm still gonna try a 500 just to see. I'm not saying your wrong, i just think there has to be some form of correlation btw AMO and ASTM static spine deflection #s. I'm not talking about recovery rate, which yes, is material specific. Isn't that why its generally better to final tune at the longest distance you can shoot accurately(ie give the arrow time to recover and plane either bareshaft or BH)?

I'm not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers, just trying to understand. So in woody world, would my variables be within reason for anyone else's experience? And why can't those results be extrapolated into carbon world? Again, just asking for my own posterity.

Scooby, fwiw, stus calculator says my 340s are about 10lbs weak, not tweaking form factor. And yes, all inputs were accurate as i could measure with my archaic tools

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