Now that we have denigrated instinctive shooting, fair is fair so how many top level archers are there in, for example, the USA?

Of course, what do we mean by top level archers? Without defining it, I would say guys like Dwayne Martin, Jimmy Blackmon, etc.

OK, if we are talking scores, let's say on average 275 and up on the 300 round - aside for guys/gals using Olympic bows.

And next level, 285 and up. Let's say that level of accuracy in a friendly round or local tournament.

More than I could count.I meet a lot of them every year that no one knows their name. Pappy

I have killed more big game animals than most on here. Have never shot a tournament round but predict I would lose badly on shots beyond 25 yards, don't much practice for those with my selfbow and cedars.

I would be a low level archer, fairly productive selfbow hunter.

I am! When I am in the zone I can't be beat! I shoot instinctively. I also finally got a true Hill style longbow. Feels like I was born with it.

I often wonder these hero paper killers could knock a sparrow of a corn stalk at 30 plus yards? I can and do every chance I get. I noticed Mr Ferguson didnt make your list.

Defining "top level" "without defining it" sounds like the skill Sean Spicer and Bill Clinton perfected.

I doubt that many here care about Dewayne's or Jimmy B's scores (or anybody's) nearly as much as we appreciate their videos and personal messages.

They're "top level" because they have done so much for all of us who have chosen to pay attention.

To my way of thinking, "top level archers" earn buckles at (for example) Texas State Longbow Championship or Spirit Lake Navajo shoots or equivalent in places as obscure as New York or Iowa.

Agree with Kevin pretty much.

I would offer that if you are top level, barebow archer, you would be shooting 480 and up in the field rounds, and mid 700's in the American Round, or mid 800's in the 900 round. When you only shoot 20 or 30 yards, a lot of expertise goes unknown. Yes there are top level 3D archers who also shoot field and target archery barebow too. Those are the ones who need to be on their game since there is more to consider than a 30 yard point on. Incidentally, we have some of them here as well.

I'm certainly not in your suggested class by any stretch, and never have been; but I have stayed in a few Holliday Inn Express.

Average 275??? I'd say that 5% is way too high. I'll give it one or two percent. Average is the eliminating factor.

Bowmania

David -

I would venture to guess that no one here (or anywhere) is AVERAGING a 275/285 on an NFAA (much less a FITA) target at 20 yards/18M without an "Olympic" rig.

Don't kid yourself, the bare bow guys in that score range are using pretty specialized/dedicated rigs with "sights" every bit as real as my Sure-loc.

Look, when I was a "kid" in my 20's, I shot a 280 and a 282 on the same night with a 60# hunting bow, but I'd be lying if I tried to claim that as an average, more of an exception with all the planets in line.

Viper out.

most compounds shooters at local indoor ranges averaged around the 285 mark. haven't seen any trad shooters get much better than the 260 on occasion and average about 240 and I thought that was pretty good shooting

And by the way, what people refer to as "Olympic Rig" is the same rigs that used to be at every field and target shoot on Sundays in the 60's and 70's B.C. (before compounds). They were simply called freestyle setups and have been around for over sixty years.

The Olympics didn't open back up to archery until 1972, and by then all of those bows were in use for quite awhile. Just about everyone in our club had a setup up as such, and even barebow shooters like me had a target setup with stabilizer, minus a bow sight. Don't recall any reference to "Olympic Rig" back then. There's nothing new here save for more models to choose from and $300.00 sights. ))

I would agree 5% is much too high. I've shot on an NFAA league every winter for 40 years, and have never shot with someone with a 285 average shooting a recurve or longbow without sights. I've seen several shoot in the 280's, but not an average that high. Several times I've had a 270 average for the league, and have occasionally shot in the 280's. I'm currently shooting a BW longbow 47# @ 28" with carbon arrows, and my average is 258. My high score for this winters league so far is 269. I went through chemo therapy in 2015, and since then have had to drop my bow weight down, just haven't regained my strength yet. I would add shooting on a league, in a relaxed environment, where your used to shooting, and shooting in a major tournament, is an entirely different game. I have nothing but respect for the guys shooting these big tournaments, and holding it all together to consistently shoot high scores!

LOL, maybe it depends on who you hang with. When I lived in MN I was blessed to hunt and shoot with 5 guys, all of whom held the top MSAA(Minnesota State Archery Association) scores at one time or another.

Way too many guys think that because they haven't heard of someone they can't be that good. Nothing could be further from the truth.

All of you guys have got this ALL WRONG...

If you are talking about top level archers, well, there is FRISKY and then there is...........Frisky....enough said!

"I would venture to guess that no one here (or anywhere) is AVERAGING a 275/285 on an NFAA (much less a FITA) target at 20 yards/18M without an "Olympic" rig."

Well, you'd be wrong. Very wrong. :)

Well you kinda left parameters pretty narrow for determining top level archers. But if we must stick to those parameters the answere at the time being is 1. Well that is in top level nfaa comp. only one man averaged above 275, at least at 2017 Vegas bare bow class with a non cam bow. The winner, John D had a 3 day average of 279.

Now with that being said, including all different types of archery I've shot with quit a few guys that don't even know what IBO or NFAA is but if they would attend a national 3D shoot and didn't development some form of tournament anxiety, they would be in the running every tournament. I personally know others that consistently kill deer, elk, turkey etc. every season but couldn't care less about competition. So are these guys high level archers? I'd say yes.

Ok, what's next?

I have no idea.

My best on the 300 round is 262...but that was with my 55# hunting rig shooting instinktive.

One of our own members here who goes by 6 Gold would likely qualify as top level. Jay won the 1957 Nationals shooting barebow. You never know who is among us, whether they are current or former "top level" archers. You just don't hear them on here bragging about it.

JRW, are you referring to yourself on someone else?

I'm going to guess 30 individuals in the USA.

Pappy and others, what is your guess how many?

You are not a top level archer if you are the best at a sport that nobody gives a toss about. Consider the rules for inclusion in the Olympics. How many shooters actually shoot some of these disciplines, and how many nations compete in them. Even the Olympics look a little dodgy: At one point pretty much the US dominated, then one nations says "let's put on a show" and they dominate. And we have amateurs with a few years experience making the team. It is hard to know. Even golf, that has pretty much the deepest bench of any sport in the world, occasionally gets a guy on the tour who practiced in a cow pasture or took up golf in adulthood. But archery is pretty thin in some of the classes.

If some of the guys mentioned go out and win the triple crown against the compound guys, then we will be onto something. In reverse, when Bates moved to sticks she was tops in the field.

I'd say thousands

"JRW, are you referring to yourself on someone else?"

I know of several whose averages on NFAA 300 rounds are at or above 275. It's a little odd to hear someone say those people don't exist when a simple search of tournament results online proves they do. Unless, of course, someone want to make an absurd claim that these folks just always happen to shoot way above average at state, sectional, and national events.

As far as my averages, if someone wants to poke around and figure it out, so be it. but I don't come here to post those things, and if I ever started referring to myself as "top level" I'd hope someone I know, love and respect would slap me upside the head.

My, my, my, where is this going?

David,

Lets say, why don't you just straight out say what it is you want to say and skip baiting the crowd.

JRW, what is your guess for how many in the USA? Maybe we have a handful in the IBO World Trad, but then I'm sure a lot of top shots never make that tournament or perhaps even any tournament.

David,

I have no idea how many, nor would I venture to guess. To be honest, I don't waste time contemplating such things.

TOP archers there are many but only in there game. what does this mean? I took my son to a field shoot for youths. I never field shoot. the club set up a 20 round 3-d course for the adults to go have fun while the kids competed. most of the fathers that went with use were field shooters some had sites. let me tell you these guys where the best at field shooting but on the 3-d they where crying about losing all there arrows. and yes x10s and other expensive arrows it wasn't there game really kind of shock me how bad they where. some shoots close to trees they wouldn't even try. top archers only in there game. know in the 90s a Olympic archer that won gold he got invited to a deer hunt his first time EVER hunting 25yard shot over the back by 2 feet. top archer only in his game. now there are many bow hunters on here that very seldom miss on live game. squirrels ,Rabbits pheasant but would probably do terrible at paper. top archers in there game. take your top archers and go rabbit hunting are pheasant hunting then see who is top archer there are none! and Meany in there Owen game. a good 300 round shooter may do terrible at 3-d and vise versa. I don't think you will find the same people top archers in all the different competition's and hunting.

A lot of the best shooters you will never hear about on these sites.

Barebow or hunting rig average 275, sorry but very,very few. I know some truly great shots and a few who shoot in 300 round leagues and the best any of them average is mid 240's. Viper is 100% correct. I would think even guys like Byron would have a tough time averaging 275. Hell I go watch some guys shoot compound rigs on Friday nights, there are several 300 guys. One that won Vegas a couple times, but the average everyday bow hunter averages around 260-270 and that is with a compound set up for hunting. Shawn

I don't know about everybody else but I have averaged over 275 for a couple years now My personal best is 286 did it 3 times. shooting A CD WF25 riser/36# Win and Win Rapido limbs and 2312's X7. I went to the LasVegas shoot 2 year's in a row. You will see the best in the world there. last year 18th place, This year I shot 23points better and only climbed to 17th. There is some damn good shooters out there.

arrowchucker, is that stabilizer and what was your aiming method?

Amen Arrowchucker ,and your one of them !! and a dang good guy too !!

Um, folks, there is a HUGE difference between an NFAA 300 round and a Vegas round -- different targets, different scoring. You can't really compare the two.

Steve Gorr is tops. Also, based on the 1st shot threads here, there are at least 100,000 top level archers in this forum alone.

Joe

Yes I had a stabilizer and I shoot 3 under and hold the point at 6 o'clock and focus on the X. I want to put a shout out to Arne Moe too. He was my virtual coach. I've watched all his videos 100 times and drove over and had him one on one a couple times. I would video myself, then post on my Youtube channel , He would critique my shot , and we would do it again. Arne took me from good to Really good. He is my only subscriber on my you tube channel LOL

mental fatigue. That's the hardest to overcome. Always said shooting a X is easy doing it 60 times in a row ......

Names you left off Ty Pelfry and how many times world champ with long bow Larry Yien

KFC,

I don't find the NFAA 300 round fatiguing. It's only 60 arrows (plus two warm up ends).

JRW, if you were referring to my post. I only said the guy won vegas. He shoots 300 rounds with the group on friday nights and they shoot compounds and shoot 300 rounds of course with a 5 spot, otherwise they would bust arrows but a barebow shooter or someone shooting their hunting set up would be world class to average 275. Shawn

There are different and distinct games with bows and arrows. A person that can dump six arrows into a six inch group at 25 yards in 30 seconds can be a great hunting shot and still never win a 3d tournament. Indeed, that same person could probably care less about showing off trophies and receiving acclimation from others.

Shawn,

I was referring to folks comparing what people shoot on NFAA rounds with what folks shoot at Vegas.

According to Archery Trade Association figures there are just under 500,000 recurve shooters who compete in tournaments. My guess only 1 out of 10 are really serious, or 50,000. I'd guess only 1 out of 10 are shooting trad bow at this level, or 5000. Perhaps one out of 100 (a bit generous)of these are really top level shots or 50 in the USA???

This leaves out longbow shooters and other top level archers who don't compete, but those numbers probably wouldn't change the overall tally much. If you don't like my numbers, plug in your own. I admit it's just a guess.

Koc, vegas shot the vegas face. Scoreing a bit different than nfaa whiteface

Was this thread started by tweet?

Should have been kpc,

The nfaa white face the white area is five points, you shoot 60 arrows.

The same size vegas face is the 10 (x ring on the white face) then 9, 8, etc. 30 arrows for 300 points. A darn bit harder to post up high scores compared to the nfaa whiteface. You could shoot 60 arrows at the nfaa whiteface and never touch the x ring and get a 300. Shoot 30 arrows at the vegas face and hit inside that same area and never hit the x ring ( the 10) and you just shot a 270.

Not the same by a large margin, yet all the arrows scored inside that white, or gold circle which is the same size

Should have been kpc,

The nfaa white face the white area is five points, you shoot 60 arrows.

The same size vegas face is the 10 (x ring on the white face) then 9, 8, etc. 30 arrows for 300 points. A darn bit harder to post up high scores compared to the nfaa whiteface. You could shoot 60 arrows at the nfaa whiteface and never touch the x ring and get a 300. Shoot 30 arrows at the vegas face and hit inside that same area and never hit the x ring ( the 10) and you just shot a 270.

Not the same by a large margin, yet all the arrows scored inside that white, or gold circle which is the same size

Here's my bowhunters round, you shoot just 20 arrows with your actual bowhunting bow on the NFAA blue and white 300 target.

90 and above excellent 80 and above good 70 and above not so good

As a round to test bowhunting accuracy expertise, it won't satisfy everyone. Not enough arrows, too many arrows, etc. I personally think 20 arrows is more than enough to give you an idea how accurate you are. Does it test stamina and mental fatigue? Not at the level of 60 arrows.

But in real world bowhunting accuracy really only the first shot counts. So arguably one could make one shot a day for 20 days, or whatever you feel is realistic, but to get a quick appraisal, I'd say 20 arrows is a suitable accuracy test.

Average, but on skeet use to be 23 bird average, got to figure out shooting shotgun shells out of my bow.

Who cares

"70 and above not so good" maybe "passing" is better. But hey, I'm not the judge, you are.

oldhunter, who cares about anything? Sadly, many people, while highly intelligent, just are not interested in much.

You inspired me to go out and shoot a round.THIS is my problem...I'm on the 5th end now

I CRUMBLED!

I started and ended OK but my 6th end was an 11! Last end was a 23....

OK, so no warmup. Tradtech Galaxy with 47# Carbon foam limbs. Shot 3 under off the shelf with velcro rest. 8.74 gpp arrows. I was gapping. The bottom "1" in the photo above is an example of losing my focus on the X.

My grand total was a 209 with 6 x's

And for the record, my first end was 5x 4 3 3 3 (in that order). I was happy about my X and slacked on the rest.

I might actually practice this now

Oh...my 20 arrows would have been 78 :)

I hate to say this but most big shoots I have been too and I mean 3D and the Muzzy shoot. I would say that more then 70% of those folks should not be shooting at live game no matter the distance. It is amazing how bad a lot of folks are even at 10 yards. I have not been shooting much as of late due to needing a shoulder replaced and I am someone who can shoot very well up to 15 yards even if I have not shot for months, but get beyond that and I have to shoot a lot to actually be any good. I believe anything over 240 is excellent on a 300 round. Shawn

I go to a lot of shoots, it takes a 90% to win most.

What is the Star method?

"I hate to say this but most big shoots I have been too and I mean 3D and the Muzzy shoot. I would say that more then 70% of those folks should not be shooting at live game no matter the distance. It is amazing how bad a lot of folks are even at 10 yards."

Been that way for a long time, too.

That which completes Trad. Archery, Babysaph.

Okay so I will chime in here. I have no clue how many people are at the top level. I know I'm not one of them though. People have been asking me for a long time, "How would you do on a 300 round?", and yesterday I finally gave it a go because it finally seemed warm enough weather wise to do some shooting. I'm hating cold fingers as I get older. lol Watching that Lancaster shoot on YouTube was inspiring. So I just drew a target with a compass to proper size and coloured it in. I used my 35#, 66" Bear Minuteman takedown because I have been doing some form reconstruction with that bow in my shot sequence working at getting rid of that stupid tiny "sky draw" problem (close up in the house), I've had since I was a kid. (That's what happens when you start out learning over bowed) lol So I am trying to shoot more like Lucy does with her form. Anyway, not horrible but nothing to brag on either at 257.I started off slowly but as I shot I guess I warmed up because it went better as I shot. I only have three good arrows for that bow right now so I ended up doing 20 rounds of 3. I don't know if that matters at all or not? So that is it. My first ever 300 round. Now pigs can fly! lol

Jeff (Gonna keep working at it now)

Back yard, or tournaments? LOL

Jeff, as I said in our PM, that is really excellent. I don't think many instinctive shooters could do that, although I could be wrong.

Well for Barebow Stringwalking I was 280's in practice last season and mid 270's in competition (which is considered only half decent for SW) but when I shot IFAA Longbow with woodies and split finger I shot mid 240's in competition and mid 250's in practice. I think anything that's not BB or Trad using long/heavy arrows to give 20y point on, then anything around 230 to 260 is a pretty decent score.

It would be quite elitist to look down on a Longbow for not averaging 275, in 30 years I've only every seen one 265 in competition from a Longbow.

I have No Idea But I really hope there is a large percent that love it as much as i do and dont pay any attention too braggers and feel they are infearior too anyone walk youre walk enjoy youre life ! My Friends are the best part of it and ive never seen some of them i respect them and receive the same back so it has been a wonderfull experaince for me and Iam a Winner every Day of my life !!!

So if we're talking friendly round or local competition...

I'd say there are probably 20 who can best 285 and maybe 50 who can best 275. But that's just a pure guess.

But can you shoot a sparrow out of a cornstalk at 30 yards? Only on the LW, lol.

For BB Stringwalking my scores are just about okay for that shooting div but Archers like Timo Leskinen in Finland just shot a 297 average at his Nationals and I know 10 other Barebows in Europe that can shoot in the 290's.

292 is the best I every shot in practice last season and that took a LOT of work, Been working away from home last 3 months so I've only shot 3 times this Indoor season not quite reached 270 in competition and doubt I will without some more serious time/effort.

There is no test in Arkansas to hunt with a Bow and arrow except hunters education course.

I doubt there are many on average even with compounds that can shoot an average of 235-250 especially with broadheads.

I never shoot past 30 maybe 35 on Elk hunting. I have killed one Elk downhill at 35 yards but most deer have been under 15 yards and less than 20. I did kill one deer at 45 yards with a compound but that was easy with a High Country Hatchet and 2213's years ago.

Maybe we should lay out a course and have a 20-second rule on the shots or less and see what we do overall on an average.

A few thoughts on this. You can't compare an NFAA round and a FITA round. It's a totally different target and scoring system. If we say the NFAA round there are a handful of guys who would bet you a $100 bill that they could walk out and shoot 275 or better right now. I will list them below.

Everyone shoots lower at NFAA Indoor Nationals. On average, guys will shoot 10 points lower than their league average. For me the entire facility has a different feel than any range I've shot on. Not an excuse, just reality. I won Mid-Atlantics one year with either a 281 or 283, but shot like 263 at NFAA Nationals. It just has a different feel.

So these guys can consistently shoot over 275. John Demmer - the most consistent champion shooting right now. John shoot's 290s in tournament frequently. He shot a 298 or 299 one year. Dewayne Martin - He's shot 290s a lot as well Ben Rogers - The elder statesman of tournament shooting. Mark Applegate Alan Eagleton Me - I haven't shot indoors in a couple of years, but I'm confident over 275. My best is 294. Scott Bills Jim Powell Mike Frizzell Paul Vogel Nicholas Wright Fawn Girrard Jennifer Stoner Neil Hurd Ken Eckerd Bobby Worthington - but there has been a lot of controversy surrounding Bobby and indoor shooting.

There are others that I have left out. For that, I apologize, but this was a list off the top of my head.

I often hear guys talk about all the fellows that are out there that we never hear about but who could outshoot everyone. Most of the guys on the list have been shooting for many years and all over the country. I do not believe that there are very many folks that could show up and outshoot this list consistently. You may disagree, but I have yet to encounter them. Certainly, there is a handful but it's a small minority.

I am not considering hunting here. Our point of reference was NFAA indoors. If we went to 3D the list would change.

Bottom dweller instincter here. I hit good to ten, fair to fifteen, and suck at twenty and out. Oh well.

Actually Jimmy, the conversion from one to the other is not that difficult, esp. if the archer doesn't shoot many 3's.

Converting FITA to NFAA is quite simple and straightforward.

And you're absolutely right about the 10 pts. lower at nationals. I see it myself and in others all the time. But all the keyboard warriors see is the score at nationals, and then of course they compare that to their best day in their back yard. LOL

Not that it hurt my feelings, but my TFAA indoor state record is a 281/279 and I'm pretty proud of that. In a local event earlier that year I shot a 286.

My practice scores when I was practicing and shooting NFAA trad setups were usually around 280-285.

The last year I shot NFAA indoor nat's (2013) I had been shooting recurve all year and as a favor to a friend, attended Louisville to shoot trad (where I had the pleasure of shooting with Demmer for the first time, on day one). I shot that event purely instinctive - no conscious aiming - and stumbled through a 250-260 ish weekend IIRC. Not my best but then it was a last minute decision with nearly zero practice.

I think there are a lot more folks out there who can and would shoot those scores in major events, but they just don't compete for one reason or another. Usually it's time and money. Usually money. That's what it is for me.

The guys on that list spend literally thousands of dollars every year traveling to shoot paper and foam. Good for them, but personally if I'm going to spend that kind of money, my target had better have hair and a heartbeat, and live in a place I want to spend some time.

Otherwise, I'll just shoot local events and have fun switching back and forth between recurve, barebow and trad - just because I can and I enjoy them all.

Anyway, long winded but I know there are folks out there to whom 270 is just an average day, but we will never hear of them. A whole lot more who if they made up their mind to, 280 would be about 6 months out, but they are satisfied with what they are doing and have other things to do besides shoot all day.

And the aura of shooting for something, medals, trophies or the right to hunt can foul up a lot of psyches big time. Thank Heaven some of these big shots, criticizing the average shooters who hunt, don't make the rules for who can hunt. Hunting is a mental game as well, but no one looks over your shoulder and counts your hits. And, they don't make up the rules that you have to attain to get to the woods. Thank you God for that.

This from David A, sounds like a treatise on proficiency tests that would likely bar a lot of folks from the woods. The problem with any proficiency test is the people deciding what they should be. A lose, lose situation for a lot of capable folks.

Jimmy, what is the controversy on Worthington, is it the Senior division?

Good to see you post and best wishes to you and the family and to Rod whom I hope is healthy and having fun.

"The guys on that list spend literally thousands of dollars every year traveling to shoot paper and foam. Good for them, but personally if I'm going to spend that kind of money, my target had better have hair and a heartbeat, and live in a place I want to spend some time."

Damn straight.

Honestly,,,,,,,,,, who cares. Jesus Christ is my hero.

Who cares

Well.....I'm definitely on the lower end. This is start of my 3rd year shooting traditional. Last summer at the IBO at Twin Oaks I shot in a little "game" where they take the first 20-25 women that sign up to shoot this and the men that sign up their names are placed in a box. Each woman is assigned 2 men to her team that are drawn out of the box. Well, I almost had a heart attack when the names for my group were called out...... Phil Johnston and Dewayne Martin. OMG... Phil is one of the best selfbow and wood arrow shooters I have ever seen and Dewayne, well, I don't have to say how good he is. I was a nervous wreck. I just continued to pray "Lord, please let me just hit the target". 3D targets are placed in an open field at various unknown distances....I have trouble still with judging distances....Dewayne and Phil shot mostly 12s and a few 10s. I did manage some 10s mostly 8s......I felt so bad though because I shot a 5 and dropped one target and got a fat 0. We got beat out toward the next to the last round by one point. It was an eye opener. 1) I definitely needed to practice more 2) I'm not ready for that pressure yet......and that was a HECK of a lot of pressure. I'm not in this to score big numbers in a tournament ....I want to shoot the best I can and beat the score I just had. So yes, I'm in the bottom, but I know I won't be in the top because that's not where I want to be. But, even though I did shoot good, having them on my team did push me to do better....I just hate I missed my yardage on the two bad shots. Now, that being said....when hunting, if that animal is 15 yds or less it's in the freezer. Marsha

John - I did not include you because I wasn't sure if your scores were barebow or Freestyle limited. I thought you shot NFAA a couple of years back in TRAD class but wasn't sure about your scores, so I omitted you. You are certainly in that group.

You are right you can convert the score, but most guys shoot lower scores on the Fita face. If you shoot all 5s you are okay because you'll shoot 27 each end, but outside that and the score drops fast. I've shot plenty of Fita and Vegas as well.

Some of you guys are a hoot. Step back with no emotion and look at the threads objectively. A large portion of people on LW only want to hunt. They frequently become negative when you talk "punching paper," yet I post 13 deer killed this year and by the fifth I'm called a game hog and feel the hate from those exact people.

Many of the Leatherwallers desire to improve their accuracy, shoot to the best of their ability, so we discuss those who are very accurate and how they shoot, but you get upset about that as well.

To stay safe on this site you would think you can only post 2 deer kills per season, and make darn sure you don't shoot better than an average of 8 per target on 3D.

Also, some of you make assumptions about the accuracy of several "icons" of traditional archery. Just because a guy writes a lot of articles, shoots trick archery, and has killed a lot of animals doesn't mean they can go to the local 3D course and outshoot everyone. That is a false assumption.

This sport has room for everyone - recreational 3D shooter, hunter, target archer, etc. At the end of the day, most of us simply want to hit what we are aiming at with greater consistency. If you are happy with your accuracy then good for you. Keep it up and enjoy the sport, but don't hate on others just because they would like to discuss some folks that have achieved tremendous accuracy due to a lot of hard work on the range. Just move on to the next thread.

My time in competitive archery was a fantastic binge in camaraderie; hanging with people who liked what I liked (archery) and good times just shooting the bow and arrow. I still enjoy that and would prefer it over hunting, as a matter of fact. Hunting season is six weeks here out of fifty-two total, and that lets a lot of time to enjoy what else it is you like.

To me, the best part of the sport of archery, is sharing time with my friends and acquaintances. Just like going to Denton Hill each year...it sure isn't for the foam targets since we rarely shoot but one round the whole time. It's for good companionship, re-upping with some folks we haven't seen in awhile, and shooting and talking archery.

If I'm spending lots of money, it's on family vacations or upkeep on our home.

Thank god i'm not on that list !We all work hard for our money and spend it as we see fit, no one on that list asked anyone on here to come or go to a dot shoot or any other shoot for that matter. we do what we do cause we like to. If we can help someone if they ask on this site, anyone of them will. Please don't make any of us bad guys because we are lucky enough to be able to do these things. Thank You Cal PS we are all avid hunters and pretty dang good ones at that . Just Sayin

Thank god i'm not on that list !We all work hard for our money and spend it as we see fit, no one on that list asked anyone on here to come or go to a dot shoot or any other shoot for that matter. we do what we do cause we like to. If we can help someone if they ask on this site, anyone of them will. Please don't make any of us bad guys because we are lucky enough to be able to do these things. Thank You Cal PS we are all avid hunters and pretty dang good ones at that . Just Sayin

George, no I'm not in favor of proficiency tests for bowhunters even though I do believe inaccuracy is the biggest single problem in trad. archery today. As we see above, a certain percentage of people seemingly don't give a hoot and even resent discussions on this problem. But deep down, I believe every single trad. archer and bowhunter wants to shoot more accurately.

Archery is like any other sport. As you move up the ladder only a few will be at the top overall. Pee-wee league, little league, middle school, high school, college, and pro, the number of people to achieve pro is very low compared to the number that started at a young age or older age. A lot of us might think we're good but not really.

Well, most compound guys are pretty accurate at 20 yds. And most rifle guys are, too...

My point being, maybe more people should consider aiming; that's what Fred Bear said, too.

Anyway, I'm getting the impression from the various threads here on the LW and other sites, that we have a couple dozen really top shots in the USA that go to the various tournaments and maybe an equal number of unknowns who can shoot at that level. All aimers. So maybe 50 in the USA at this level?

And then we have a handful of instinctive archers who also are phenomenal shots, but below the aimers level of accuracy. Maybe one or two who can make it to the upper levels on paper now and then. Perhaps now and then a real talent who can win against the better aimers.

Then the vast majority of a hundred thousand or more trad. archers who (I'm generalizing) fall one of three groups 1) pathetic in accuracy or 2) so-so in accuracy or 3) fairly good in accuracy (but not by tournament top level standards).

I would say this is the underbelly of trad. archery that isn't too attractive. Yet, many will say "who cares?", "so what?", etc. pen. Perhaps the majority of guys/gals go to a tournament, don't shoot that well by hard standards, yet still have fun. Go home, and don't change anything, don't think to change anything, and don't care to change anything.

Fine, but I think the number 1 issue deserves discussion out in the open.

I don't know why people take the time to type "who cares" on a topic they care nothing about. LOL

And Jimmy - no worries. I bounce around from bow to bow and format to format as the mood strikes me. Olympic Recurve is certainly the easiest for me, because the clicker eliminates my TP, but I did enjoy training toward my goal of setting the new TFAA indoor trad record and am quite proud of that season's work.

I'd love nothing more than to travel around with John and Dewayne and the guys to shoot, but at the same time I miss shooting with the OR guys quite a bit, esp. when an "old man" like me can still (some days) compete with the top young guns.

The toughest decision for me is whether I'm going to coach, shoot recurve, shoot barebow, shoot trad, or a combination of those, or just say screw it and go hunting. LOL

As for George's comment - I'm a bit taken back since he is usually so positive. I don't see any of the guys on Jimmy's list criticizing anyone. I think they (and I too) remember very well where we came from, and I spent a lot more years shooting average or below average with a stickbow than I have shooting well. I remember those days so I don't criticize those who are still on that journey. I just try to help them with what I've learned, if they want help.

The same is true for guys like Jimmy, Dewayne, John, Ben, Alan and others. You won't get better help, quicker, than you will from those guys. Just look at all the instructional FREE video folks like Jimmy and Dewayne have posted. Nobody made them do that or paid them to do that. That my friends, is VERY generous of them. I've thought a few times of doing the same but frankly it's a lot of work to be criticized that much! LOL

10 million Canadians golf, which is odd considering the weather. So probably south of 100 million in the US.

Over 2 million US golfers have an official handicap, which means they compete in sanctioned events to get there. The top amateur golfer who wins the US amateur, normally can't hang with the pros. When that was Tiger Woods, he played himself out of the US Open.

The reasons I bring this up is because I came across this thread from a few years ago about how there were multiple championships in the US barebow recurve world, and that you didn't always get even 3 people show up for the nationals. In one case the guy won by showing up.

"The reasons I bring this up is because I came across this thread from a few years ago about how there were multiple championships in the US barebow recurve world, and that you didn't always get even 3 people show up for the nationals. In one case the guy won by showing up."

I think in the past rule restrictions pretty much killed off BB in the USA, specially NFAA. It's certainly not the case now, top US Barebows have gone toe to toe with top European Barebows (BB is still more popular here) at the last 3 WA World Field champs, those American Archers are well respected for their shooting skill.

Jimmy, you know the tournament scene better than me, is this overly optimistic?

"Anyway, I'm getting the impression from the various threads here on the LW and other sites, that we have a couple dozen really top shots in the USA that go to the various tournaments and maybe an equal number of unknowns who can shoot at that level. All aimers. So maybe 50 in the USA at this level? "

I'm sure there are around 50 guys that CAN shoot 275, but not much more than that.

Some of the guys that could choose not to shoot indoors. Calvin for example. I'm a bit confused by his comment above, "Thank God I'm not on that list," because he is certainly a tournament shooter, but he chooses to shoot longbow vs. Trad class so his scores are lower. Still he shoots 250-260s with longbow and woodies. If he shot TRAD he's be a 275+ guy. Calvin?

There are others like Mark Lynde who could as well but choose not to shoot indoors very often. Scott Antczak shot that high but hasn't shot indoors in a while either. Same is true for Ty Pelfrey and Jared Neal.

Archery is no different than Golf. There are a lot of guys on the tour who are great shots, but there are 5-10 that will always be on or near the podium when everyone is there.

Bowlim, those are fair comparisons.

However, as a coach of quite a few Olympic Recurve archers with high aspirations over the past 13 years, I've also come across my share of very good athletes from others sports who have decided to take up archery.

To my surprise, because I was an athlete the whole time growing up like many of you, I have seen uncordinated non- athletic people who never would have earned a varsity letter in HS, pick up a bow and outshoot folks who were College All- Americans.

Archery is a bit different. The mental game is so important in this sport. The ability to focus and concentrate and repeat identical movements often trumps pure athleticism. It is in golf too, but golf requires quite a bit more coordination than archery does.

Oh, and I had a USGA Handicap index of 4.5 for years and never played a competitive round outside of the club championship once a year, for a couple years.

It would be nice to see thousands of archers competing for every national title. We do see that in compound and in some divisions of Olympic Recurve. But I'm not sure the scores would be much better if we did have that in barebow. There's only so much a person can do with a simple bow and no sights.

Just a funny, you know me. There are a lot of very, very good shooters out there that just don't hit all the big shoots. When I see a stranger I always wonder is this guy going to hand me my butt today !! LOL Sometimes they do and I will be the first to shake their hand !! After all it's still just a game we play ! Cal

Yes I spend a lot of money but I wouldn't trade the friends I've made for all the Deer horns in the world.

When I see folks downplay others who don't hit the big shoots I think of Matt Potter. Here was a guy from MT that could shoot very well, but a few folks called him a "backyard shooter" or some such nonsense, said he really wasn't that good because he didn't come to the big shoots. So he came to the IBO Traditional World Championship, kick a LOT of people's butts, and went back home where he has more fun fly fishing and running lion hounds.

In short: don't ever dismiss someone just because they don't go to big shoots. They may shoot a LOT better than you.

Jason, I've seen (and been the subject) of the same thing - as you know. It's a poor person who looks down on an archer just because they don't spend their money traveling and competing. Like DWS says, you never know when someone is going to decide today's the day, and hand you your butt. LOL That is one of the great things about this sport - that a person can train in their back yard or garage and one day if they have the mental game to do it, step onto a big stage and compete with anyone.

It's been a while since I hit the "big shoots" with my Olympic bow and even then I didn't go to too many. Funny thing is that these days I meet a lot of archers who have no idea that I ever even knew how to hold a bow. LOL Oh well.

It's hard to say how many great shooters we have in the U.S. Really hard to say. Who knows how many guys are out there shooting 280's but who just don't feel the need to compete.

Limbwalker, there was no criticism of the shooters on here in my post. That's the trouble with emotionless internet, some folk aren't getting the context.

Now, my thrust was toward David A, who seemed to be demeaning those whose accuracy may not be what he thinks it should be. I've been on here since the forum started, and everyone knows I'm into shooting accurately and promoting that. Dewayne and Calvin should also know that I support guys like them wholeheartedly. Certainly not being negative about good shooters. Holy cow.

Sorry. Like you said it's hard to tell. That's why it surprised me. Cuz that's not like you.

Sometimes I maybe don't 'splain well.

George I know we have your support, and appreciate it ! We would rather help someone beat us, than to beat up on a new guy. Cal

George, I don't demean people. Sorry if any of my posts conveyed that.

Rather the issue is identifying a huge problem that by some of the discussion here would point to 99% of trad. archers not being able or not interested, or not getting the teaching required to be highly accurate.

JRW, Matt Potter has said all kinds of bad things about you know what, yet when I went out of my way to meet him in Missoula to demonstrate my methods for him, he refused to meet with me or see me shoot. I offered to meet with the following day, still he wasn't interested. I'm sure he is an excellent shot, but it seems his mind was made up, I certainly sensed a shock at the other end of the phone when I said "Hi, I'm here, it'll be nice to meet and shoot a little or at least I can show you the methods in person"...He suddenly wasn't interested although online he had virtually challenge me to show up at his fly shop. Which is what I did. Bought a few things, too.

"Rather the issue is identifying a huge problem that by some of the discussion here would point to 99% of trad. archers not being able or not interested, or not getting the teaching required to be highly accurate."

David I hope you don't mind but I am going to break this down a bit for clarity. Just to add another person's view point if I may.

"huge problem" - I have to ask, to who? I know a lot of people who play golf and never break 90, and never will break 90, but they don't mind because they just like to get on the course once a week for the fresh air, friendship and release the pressures they have accumulated over the last week of working very stressful jobs. Not every one has the competitive spirit to care if they break 90. They have lives outside of golf (or in this case archery) and that sport has a low priority. So in short this perceived "huge problem" is the way you view it and not them.

"not being able to" - Again see above paragraph. Also many, no matter how much they practice, or how many lessons they get will never break 90 because they just don't have the athletic ability to do so. That's just life, yet they are still able to enjoy their pursuit regardless. Would you deny this of them because of it?

"not getting the teaching" - the teaching is available if they wish it. They just don't wish it enough to bother. Kind of like someone who might be out of shape and/or fat. Sure they'd love to walk around with a 6 pack. There is definitely not a lack of teaching or knowledge to learn how to achieve one. They just don't want one bad enough to bother. You can't force feed knowledge into someone who doesn't care. Again it is an individual choice and not something you or I should be worried about.

If I think about myself here for a minute... if I may say so I would likely have the ability to improve enough to compete with some of these guys if I wanted to. Yeah I am going to try and get down to Lancaster next year because I think it would be fun, if I can manage it money wise and time wise, but I still am not going to dedicate myself to the full extent which I know it would take to maybe win down there. I want to go for the experience and besides that, I have been involved in sports at the National level before and I am just not willing to commit myself to that amount and let everything else in my life sacrifice for it. I have other interests and family which will still have to be balanced. When I was at the National level in my sport I was young, single and had responsibilities to no one else other than myself.

Anyway, I hope this has maybe helped give a different perspective on the topic.

Cheers Jeff

David when might you be posting your achievements animals arrowd or shoot wins? I been watching but came across a fire department bulletin to watch out for David A the thread fire starter.

O'l Frisky is an armature weed eater when it comes to thread length fires.LOL

Well, that's off topic. Hope Phil just deletes it. I would like to give a little demo to Graysquirrel as well. Sorry, it was just too funny.

Of all the shoots I go to 1% goes to win ,the other 99 % go to enjoy and participate !! including myself, I know I'm not going to win the Vegas Shoot but I go to be a part of it. Cal

"I didn't think you had it in you...?" *I'm your huckleberry...*

https://youtu.be/R8OWNspU_yE

Kurt,

That was a fun weekend. When Matt and I faced off in the 3 Rivers Shoot we both went 10-10-10. Before the fourth target he told me I should shoot and 8. I told him to shoot a 5. Long and short, he closed out with 10-10. I went 8-10. He went home with the big check.

I miss shooting with that guy, a great shot and an even better person.

Ryan, I'm a simple bowhunter, not a tournament archer. I was just watching Tombstone and couldn't resist.

I'm sure Matt and I would have gotten along fine if the meeting had taken place. I'm very friendly, and even with the STAR Method, I still miss on game and make the occasional bad shot. Only Chuck Adams never misses.

"I've also come across my share of very good athletes from others sports who have decided to take up archery."

Good point, a classic example being Michael Jordan's desire to be good in baseball or golf. He certainly wasn't bad, but not all that remarkable either.

In pointing our how thin our sport is at times, I am no trying to tear it down. I am curious whether we are for the most part missing the top of the pyramid, and therefore almost anyone could shoot 275, or whether we have a standard distribution, but not that many players.

I think you are right that scores would probably not be revolutionized with better players. Though, Tiger was an interesting example there (not a big fan myself), he was so much better that they would have had to make the game significantly harder, which they couldn't do because the Augusta has track limitations, and efforts to make the US Open harder lead to random outcomes, which is true in different ways for the British open. I don't think Tiger ever shot a 59, and if he did, not often. Yet he actually drove a few great players slightly bonkers and they more or less fell apart. Strange world.

Yeah David I think you hit the nail on the head there. I bet all of us here would likely get along great around a camp fire or at a shoot somewhere or on a hunt together and that is one of the main things. All of this archery stuff brings us together in the long run regardless of how we all shoot. Many seem to forget all of that while sitting behind a computer screen.

I'm very good when I'm shooting by myself ;-) JF

This was on the internet so it must be right :)

"So, what is a very good NFAA 300 score? 2004 US Olympic Archer John Magera:

I and my fellow Olympic recurve archers, with our full blown FITA rigs [Olympic- style recurves with sights, stabilizer rods and such-gh] will generally score in the 295-300 range on that NFAA face, with about 40-50 X’s. My personal best in competition was a 299 with 42 x’s…

As for the top “traditional” recurve and longbow shooters [bows without sights or other tech gimicks-gh], they will be in the 260-275 range. That’s mighty fine shooting…

Now those are top scores. Magera adds that he reached the 270s with his target barebow rig and shot in the 240s with his trad huntng rig–scores he considers an accomplishment, even for former Olympic Archer. For most, scoring between 220-240 will be an achievement, and getting past that first 200 will be a good start. "

Bowlim,

I think if a LOT of people had proper instruction, they could shoot 275's.

Case in point - I have a family that I've coached literally from SCRATCH - meaning they all shot their first arrows with me - and all three that shoot barebow/trad, are now shooting 275's including the 50+ year old mom who never touched a bow until 3 years ago. What are the chances of that? That a mom, dad and a son would all shoot that high with NFAA trad gear?

That just tells me that with proper motivation and direction, 275's are possible for just about anyone who wants them.

Good job of coaching, limbwalker. I also bet archery is a lot more fun for them having good form and excellent accuracy.

"In short: don't ever dismiss someone just because they don't go to big shoots. They may shoot a LOT better than you."

2009 I won Euro Fields and beat some Finnish guy by 300 points (he had been shooting about 18 months and his first International), we became friends and he visited me a few times and I visited him, the following year he won the World Fields and the next two in 2012 and 2014.

He had passion for shooting and grew into a world class shooter with dedication and hard work, a lot of people don't have the money or time to develop in such a way but I never judge an Archer because I just don't know at what stage they are with their shooting, a couple of years down the line they could be the next big tourney shooter, it kinda keeps things interesting.

Limb walker,

That's the catch.....I've never had any coaching and have only ever even shot with other people a few times. After a few years of experimenting, I am just now figuring WHAT I want to learn

David,

I take great pride in knowing that that family will enjoy the sport of archery together for a long time. They travel together to tournaments and I can just imagine all the memories they will have through this sport. All because someone took the time to start an archery program and teach.

Not tooting my own horn as much as I'm encouraging those of you who have the knowledge, to get out there and share it. You WILL change lives. I promise.

Jason (JRW) is on that list too.

I'm not sure there are a ton of shooters who can average 275 but there are probably more than you think. The bar has really been raised over the past few years.

I shot a 285 today (BB Stringwalking), friend is going to Euro Indoors next week so I trained with him, we shot cold with no warm up, pleased that I got stronger towards the end as shot 3 x 25's in a row, normally last few ends is a struggle to focus.

Of course this is practice, not competition. Not done much Indoors this season, think it's been 2 months since I've been to my indoor range.

Jason - left you off the list - duh. You are certainly on that list, so it grows and grows.

Matt's story is a little different that "he was an incredible shooter and just decided to answer the call, travel to Clarksville and dusted everyone off."

Matt attended one of Rod's clinics and got fired up. He decided to go all in and fully committed with a very open mind. He very quickly mastered string walking. He then decided to travel to Twin Oaks. I shot two or three rounds with him that weekend and he shot amazing. From there he kept getting better.

Traveling to shoots for Matt is a significant commitment. Missoula isn't on the beaten path.

I broke 225 with my Longbow a few years ago ... Was a great day . I once broke 250 in my practice with a curve running a stab .....

But the difference shooting those scores and doing 275 regularly is almost inconceivable for me ...

My hats off the those chaps .

I refuse to shoot that many arrows because of a hand injury, but if I can't shoot 90 and above for 20 arrows, I'm unhappy.

I claim no special talent and hardly practice compared to tournament standards. It's simply about near perfect alignment and a near perfect release. But then I'm using a bow with great mass (steel riser) that I can dominate the target with. You must be able to hold dead steady, as steady as the compound guys do with their let off.

Here's the bow. The overdraw and entire riser is steel. Using a simple Merrill sight with one pin. Yes, I know a sight is frowned upon, there are ways to improve the standard crawl technique as well, but you really need a special bow there, too because of the unbalanced limb stress.

Just 54". Black Widow Hunter Express, no longer made. Some people say overdraws are less accurate than a standard riser, but I think in the right hands with someone who can put in the practice time, they could shoot a perfect round with this short a bow. It's the mass which helps so much and yet most bowhunters are looking for very light wt. bows and they brag on how light their longbow or recurve is.

Actually, I think a 50" bow can do it with my releases although no one is making such a bow at leas that I have seen. It's now about bow mass and dominating steadiness since bow length becomes almost irrelevant.

I saw the list posted by jimmy of people who can shoot over 275. Looks pretty small. Do you really think that's all that can shoot 275? What do you other target shooters think? Jrw demmer do you think there are more shooters out there that shoot 275? Looking at the previous years nationals for USA archery and nfaa I think so

GAMING the SYSTEM Many here are experts at what they do. Some don't perform in front of crowds,some don't have the endurance,some just don't care to compete. You have to practice and set up for different things. Marsha-any deer within 15 yards is in the freezer.Jeffer- moving targets. Matt -sparrows off of cornstalks. Don't challenge George and many others here in their backyard. Vegas-heavy arrows for the specific point on. 3d- arrows as light and fast as allowable + practice distance judging. You also develop a sighting system for the game played. Then there is Jimmy who shoots all kind of bows and aiming methods. A competitor,instructor,and deadly in the woods. Whatever the scores he is an ARCHER. Arnie is an excellent instructor/problem solver. To end this, any one that is satisfied with where they are has stopped learning and improving. Never bet against a man at his game.My hat is off to all the experts here. >>>----> Ken

Well here's my take on the subject. As stated in one of the Star Wars movies,"There's always a bigger fish!" Once you're on top, there's only one way you can go.

Longcurve,

Every year that list grows more and more. The level of talent in barebow recurve archery has just exploded over the past few years. Two years ago at USA Archery field trials, John and I figured there were probably 8-10 people who could have easily made the team. This year I suspect that number will two or three times that many.

Even in my home state, it was just three or four years ago when I used to purposely shoot in the Olympic Recurve class with my Barebow rig because there was often no one else in Barebow. Now here are a lot of Barebow shooters and the class is getting tougher every year. There's one club in Chicago (North Side Archery Club) that is churning out good Barebow shooters left and right.

Keep an eye out for the results of the upcoming Lancaster Classic. I'll bet it'll be shocking to see how many people turn in huge scores.

Jason: I wish we were seeing that kind of growth in the South. Things seem to be going in the other direction here.

I average 260-265 with a 40cm FITA target at 18m with a full Oly setup (23" riser, long stab, sight) and maybe 240-250 barebow.

Longcurve, like Jason said, the list is growing every year. Just speaking USA only, we probably have about twenty that can do it regularly week in weak out. I'm talking people that go to shoots. Probably a few others that don't. This is for the NFAA 275. For the 275 FITA half, that list is very small that can do it in tournaments. I would really love to touch on Jason's comment about the classic, but i will bite my tongue. I don't want to put that kinda pressure on the other shooters, but I feel that we will see some pretty good scores this year on the top end even with dropping the stab from the rules. I know Fawn shot the rules we have this year at last year's shoot, and she shot awesome.

Tal, it depends where you are at. Its all regional on the growth. Some are down, some are up, but overall it's way up.

Jason, the team trials this year as you know it will be the very hardest to date. Gotta love it!

Think it's limiting to pick just one round like indoors, maybe define a top shooters by how they place in National/world tourneys Field, 3D and Indoors.

I shoot indoor practice 3 times a month if I'm lucky, I can shoot decent Barebows scores but it's far from world class, in my mind the difference of level between Field/3D and my Indoor level is very big.

I'll add I won medals in a couple of World Indoor champs for both Longbow and Barebows but for me to get to any serious level I need 2-3 days a week practice several months before the tourney.

Who knows how many world class potentials out there but in the wrong location or Job to develop themselves to that level. For Field/3D I have those facilities on my doorstep and it's easy to build to a good level, Indoors I don't have that access and scores are below what I would expect to be competitive internationally.

I did some research. Went back and looked at nfaa sectional and indoor Nationals as well as usa archery Nationals from the past 2 years. Adding those to Jimmy's list I came up with 24 people who have shot 275+. The list gets tiny when you make the cut off 280. The people who have shot 280+ multiple times are Fawn Girard Scott Bills John Demmer Grayson Partlowe Bobby Worthington Dewayne Martin. The only person to shoot 290+ multiple times John Demmer. The people on that list are shooting other worldly scores and doing it at bigger tournaments. I can only wonder at what their local or backyard scores are like. So those are the people we know of but there are probably many more that don't go to shoots who are just as good. I'm sure they're out there. Not too long ago I saw a younger guy stringwalking at a shop in Richmond who never missed the gold! So don't underestimate the talent out there that no one has ever heard of. My guess is there are at least 100 people who are capable of shooting 275.

Erik Jonsson without a doubt is the best Field and Indoor Barebow Archer in the world.

Wa18 he just shot a 584 last weekend, he is the benchmark we all strive for.

Stephen, I try not to get caught up in who's the best, so I never engage in those conversations. The best is so day to day and very opinionated. In basketball you hear people saying Kareem Jabar was the best ever undeniable, Hakeem was the best, Jordan, LeBron James... There really is no undeniable best. Best score doesn't always s the best. If that was the case, wilt Chamberlain will never be surprised at over 50 a game as the best season ever, but we still get those arguements. Haha. I do wish we had more world competitions once every two years for field sucks especially when some have to travel several thousands of miles to compete in it. Also, club shooting in a very controlled environment is way easier than on a national stage with a lot of your top competitors on the same line and same bail. We do always strive for perfection though. I think it was Timo who laid down a 299/298 at one of his events on the blue and white before??? There will always be open ended arguements on who's the best and will never be without a doubt. Too many aspects of barebow out there. Field, indoor, 3d, clout, and target.

"Who cares"

Comments like this flabbergast me. Twice posted by the same person.

Obviously a lot of us do. Perhaps more than how many deer he has killed or how good a backyard bowman he is.

Yeah I watched Timo at his best both Indoors and on a WA Field round. It's inspiring.

I said about Erik because he won more BB world's than anyone else but I know what you mean.

You've got a lot more to offer, those world title will come pretty soon for you.

^ Some good comments

I've had the pleasure of shooting with some of the top guys mentioned above and they were all fantastic guys and very helpful [btw, you guys forgot Tom Daly] Someone trashing Matt Potter- ridiculous! He is a fantastic guy and he doesn't know me from Adam.

Tournament shooting is a whole different animal from backyard hero shooting. I think it was Nick Saban that said, "You never know what player you recruited until you see him under the lights"...so true.

Tournament shooting is a great way to help your shooting. ....whether in the woods or whatever.

Oh....and we are lucky to have some of these great shooters chiming in on this forum!

If you look at where the money is in other sports it is in speed. Archery is kinda old school with it's emphasis on grinding out the same mediocre shot over and over until the boredom decides a winner. 3D was a great idea, but was expensive on all fronts, range area, bows, and targets. And 3D is easy to cheat, and once cheated returns to being a version of spots shooting. Meanwhile the kids are playing video games and watching movies based on speed and reactive archery and then trudging over to the Olympic archery field.

We need something new.

Beendare, this was for guys and gals shooting recurve, so Tom was never mentioned or the other great compound shooters.

Stephen, it's hard to argue your field stats, but this side of the pond gets zero exposure for field. On a field worlds year, most of us that go it's our second field shoot of the year. It's very difficult to do really well when it's pretty much foreign. I never even heard of field until 4-5 years ago. Sad, but that's how it is here. It's like us saying so a d so is the best 3d shooter ever because they hold more IBO world titles than anyone else. We can only be a product of our environment. I've been working my butt off trying to get more exposure since I went to my first one in Croatia. To see exactly how passionate the rest of the world are for the barebow class was absolutely amazing. I heard about it, but seeing it and talking to them about it was Incredible. Got me to thinking about it and trying to help change things in the states how we are handled. It's been going ok, hopefully with the popularity at an all-time high every year, we are soon to making even more progress.

I have similar issues, the only WA Field course here is the one I built, I went to Stockholm a couple of weeks before Dublin to train, 5 different ranges in a weekend, some awesome terrain.

Can't make world's this year my youngest son starting school that week.

This Summer I start designing and building the courses for IFAA world Fields, big job as I'll be doing a lot of it on my own.

I have similar issues, the only WA Field course here is the one I built, I went to Stockholm a couple of weeks before Dublin to train, 5 different ranges in a weekend, some awesome terrain.

Can't make world's this year my youngest son starting school that week.

This Summer I start designing and building the courses for IFAA world Fields, big job as I'll be doing a lot of it on my own.

Nothin beyond 17.3 yards and a pie plate :)

WA3D World's in France, nothing under 17.5 yards, threw most of the Americas off, DeWayne and Calvin adapted pretty quickly, some of the better known European shooters were also caught out, not the distances but the unfamiliar French 3D's.

Got to give DeWayne credit, shooting 3under in Stringwalking div and still making top 8.

As for field shooting I am lucky to have not one but 3 courses within 45 minutes of me in MD. However I've found the only people shooting them are compounders and the courses are trimmed for the compound and don't allow our higher trajectories at the longer ranges due to overhanging limbs, etc. The last one I shot I had to stay at 50 yards or under.

One thing every single one of you need to remember is, everyone of us has the right to pursue his or her passion in life.

I usually don't get involved in the tournament archery discussions, simply because it is not my passion, I love archery, I shoot nearly everyday. But I would much rather be up in a treestand than standing on a line trying to put numbers on a scoreboard.

By the same token there are some of you that are very tournament minded, you live for the thrill of competition and high scores.

To judge "top level" by scores alone in the tournament field, or Olympic stadium is justified.

To judge "top level" by score alone for the rest of the archers is not. There are a lot of "top level" archers that will never look like an Olympic archer when they shoot, (nor do they want to)...Most of them are at home in a treestand, or with one foot in a brush pile swinging on a bouncing cottontail.

Just a friendly reminder, for all of us...Both sides can get a little highminded at times.

To put that last post in perspective.

All of the men you mention that have scored high scores and capable of high average's are most certainly top level, competitors and archers.

I have a video here of wingshooting pheasants with recurves and longbows.

I can assure you their form, stance, shot sequence ect...differs obviously, from the tournament, Olympic archer.

But they are all "top level".

Steve (shade mt), that was very well put, and thought out.

I agree.

There are "top level" archers out there who we will never know of.

Why? Because they don't care if we know. They do it solely for their own "private" pleasure.

Rick

I worry about how well I shoot and not others. It's my shooting that counts.

Iv never been a great target shot but have always been cool as a cucumber when it comes to critters...on the other hand have known guys who could where out an x ring indoors & completely miss deer @ 20yds ??? Go figure

I don't know who Erik is but that's an amazing score. Don't know much about field either. Indoor scores are easy to compare and take consistency. It's a good way to compare top level tournament archers. I would be happy as heck to shoot 270 myself so hats off to the people who are doing it in tournaments.

Lol Steve. I know there are a lot of great backyard shooters. That's never really been a secret, so thanks for making sure all of us can remember that. Haha this post was about indoor scores, so remember, that was the topic at hand.

Do not know what it takes to be a top shooter,but do know that I am not one,just get lucky and have a critter run in front of my arrow every now and then!

Terry those 3D's do the same, run right in front of my arrows lol

Demmer you have a good idea of Barebow shooters in the US. Which shooters aside from you are capable of shooting a 285 nfaa round in a tournament? I am curious to know who and how many we have here. Something all of us can aspire to.

I can shoot a 275 on a 3d round but where I shoot the shots are less than 30 yards

But I can't shoot with the top level guys on here Like Dwayne etc.

I've shot 275 in competition fairly consistently, if I'm 285 in practice it feels normal for that 275 in BB.

Longbow wood arrows and split finger I was mid 240's

This season, injury and lack of practice have pushed my scores very low, out of all the rounds Indoors seems to require the most effort and confidence to shoot decent scores, it's also the most satisfying when it comes together.

[[[ "Lol Steve. I know there are a lot of great backyard shooters. That's never really been a secret, so thanks for making sure all of us can remember that. Haha this post was about indoor scores, so remember, that was the topic at hand." ]]]

Yeah John, I kind of lost sight of that also. My agreement with Steve was just that. Agreement.

It was in no way intended to discount, discredit, or put down the accomplishments you & others have worked for, and achieved.

I know what it takes, and my hat is off to those who have achieved it, and even to those who haven't yet strive to do so.

Rick

With the Lancaster Classic, Las Vegas and NFAA Nationals within two months we will see the “cream rise to the top”! Looking forward to seeing new high scoring records. Good luck guys!

I'm just a middling club shooter, mostly local 3D events. I know a couple of the top- shelf folks very well, and many to say "HI" to at an event. I don't get out much, but in my limited experience I think, out of the entire traditional archery community, fewer than 50% can/could keep an average in the 220s on an NFAA blue face. Maybe 25% in the 230s, 15% in the 240s. That leaves 10% for everything above 250 -- and since getting better at those levels requires a geometrically increasing amount of work, anyone who has a 260 or better average is shooting really, really well. Sure, a counterbalanced metal riser with carbon-foam limbs, a custom grip, plunger and rest, etc. are more consistent rigs than what many traditional folks enjoy shooting (me included...), but it is manifestly NOT the bows that make those women and men good archers, but their knowledge about how to practice well, and practicing well often.

BUT what amazes me more than the lotus-eaters are all the folks "in the middle" who are so very impressive. I shoot IBO events occasionally and some area tournaments (and get my butt kicked often enough!) and ALWAYS meet/shoot with/watch folks who are darn good 3D archers. So, I echo what others here have previously said -- the world many not be home to many elites, but IS filled with really good archers who are only known among their circle of archery friends, who are more interested in earning "bragging rights" in their local clubs than in big-time tournaments, and who are having a blast of fun (and maybe some frustration!) in the process. Keep it up, and I look forward to meeting and shooting with you (when the let me out of the asylum...)!

Rick no worries, just had to chuckle a bit. I'm a pretty big sports fan and watch the best of the best get nit picked on all the time, so none of that stuff ever bothers me nor ever will. Even the greats shoot better in the back yard than what their shoots show. So just had to giggle a little. Most of the great shooters don't really get offended, a little more motivated maybe, but this sport is always all in good fun.

David, off the top of my head of the guys that are capable currently at this point in time, Dewayne Martin, Grayson Partlowe, John Dillinger, Ben Rogers, Alan Eagleton, Jeff Roy, Scott Bills, Rick Stonebreaker, Bobby Worthington, Cory Culvas, Mark Lynde. That's off the top of my head. Those are the ones if they went to an nfaa tournament would have a high probability of shooting that. Now, that is with no stabs. If you add stabs, they have an even higher rate of likelihood. Some of these guys don't shoot nfaa, but shoot fita, so a lot of them are geard for longer range shooting so they have a lower anchor and would need to stringwalk. But their equipment is at a lower mechanical advantage than the nfaa Trad class. I don't know if that makes sense to everyone, so please pardon it if it doesnt. I'm sure if I think about it a little more, I could share some more names. There are definitely others I know, but these are the ones I know that have a pretty high chance. A few on that list can do it all almost all the time.

John, I'm looking forward to your seminar Thursday evening at Spooky Nook. Also, looking forward to the classic on Saturday. Good luck. Jim

I forgot Jimmy Blackmon and Fawn Girard. See couple minutes.

Thanks Jim, hope you will get something out of the seminar. There will be a Q&A with a panel of shooters, so bring some good questions with you too.

I wish I can go back and edit. Add JRW. Haha

Thats more than I expected because 285 is awfully high. I've never heard of a few of those shooters but I don't get out much. My hats off to you all and thank you for the inspiration.

"If you add stabs, they have an even higher rate of likelihood. Some of these guys don't shoot nfaa, but shoot fita, so a lot of them are geard for longer range shooting so they have a lower anchor and would need to stringwalk. But their equipment is at a lower mechanical advantage than the nfaa Trad class. I don't know if that makes sense to everyone, so please pardon it if it doesnt..."

Makes perfect sense to me John.

I had the honor of joining that 285 club one time in competition, and it was only because of that big a.. 12" stabilizer on the end of my rig that I could do it. Period.

Who cares about shooting paper? I seriously doubt there is anyone on this forum that could match John Shultz today at his age let alone when he was in his prime. Howard Hill, John Shultz these are the guys that impress me, paper punchers are just that and I couldn't care less.

John, can you believe I have friends that still to this day that say a stab does absolutely nothing for them score wise? Haha.

Mr Phillips, thank you for your time and thoughts. I don't know who Howard Hill or David Shultz is, but I sure would like to meet them one day.

[[[ LB1975 said: "Who cares about shooting paper? I seriously doubt there is anyone on this forum that could match John Shultz today at his age let alone when he was in his prime. Howard Hill, John Shultz these are the guys that impress me, paper punchers are just that and I couldn't care less." ]]]

This is the kind of attitude, that influences some folks from ever reaching their potential.

I would bet a dollar to a hole in a doughnut, Mr. Hill did not, and Mr Shultz does not share this attitude with you.

By the way - They both impress me also, but their shooting isn't the only thing impressing me. Their positive attitude toward other archers & bowhunters has a lot to with it.

8^)

Rick

Demmer if you don't know who Howard Hill is you don't matter.

JD, you obviously should have inserted a smilie face. 8^)

Rick

?? lol

No idea but for the goofball that said the average for compound guys is 285 if fricken nuts. I spent two winters with them, not a chance! Maybe 260!

I watched Byron shoot 3D in Germany, he wasn't great, doesn't mean I have any less respect for his trick shooting skills.

VERY few Archers that are top level across all disciplines, the sport is so varied it's hard to be good at everything.

It's the mental game that suffers over a long course of fire. Maintaining good form over 60 shots is not easy! That's twice as many shots as a typical 3D course.

My normal practice sessions are probably 30-40 arrows. Then the brain wants to go tree some squirrels ;-)

Long term focus, over a course of fire, or the ability to put in practice rounds consistently over a long time (years!) is what separates the best from the rest. Those of us who slack off, get distracted, make excuses, well we might shoot 'okay' but championship level? Doubtful.

That said, I still enjoy shooting and (slowly) improving.

Dana, so true. Shooting indoors is such a mental game. We all make bad shots. They are inevitable, but what you do after one is what separates everyone. If you make a bad shot in 3d, it's not that big of a deal. You walk to the next target and shoot a different looking target and distance. When you make a bad shot indoors, you have to shoot the same target again. What makes it even harder is when you make a good feeling shot and hit sub par and wonder what you did wrong. Lol.

Zetabow...I agree wholeheartedly with your last post.

Demmer...never intended to discredit tournament shooters...not in the least.

Archery is I big sport my friend. From us Bowhunters to the tournament shooters. Many top level archers. take care

meant a big sport. sorry

When comparing how good others are Hey it can make a difference on how we do !

Sometimes better, sometimes not

But maybe we should define top archers !

And if we figure it out ! Does it make a difference today or tomorrow ?

Just wondering>>>......................> our own best competition is our self !

DS

LB1975, if as you said " I couldn't care less". Then why did you post? If you posted means you cared enough to do it.

Then you wrote "Demmer if you don't know who Howard Hill is you don't matter". Really? that is the new "Gold Standard"? knowing who Howard Hill is? One, he was joking. Two, I know of him, but could not tell you much about him, but I still enjoy archery.

The bottom line is that everybody enjoys the type of archery they choose to do be it paper 3d or killin critters!

Re John Demmer - "We all make bad shots. They are inevitable, but what you do after one is what separates everyone."

That's true even in hunting. I know of one guy who made a poor shot on a deer and dam' near gave up bowhunting, he was so bummed. Not saying one should dismiss it lightly, but knowing how to regroup is a valuable skill/mental discipline that might best be learned on targets.

The Lancaster classic this weekend was fun to watch. Not much Barebow coverage until finals but it's understandable I reckon. I downloaded the rcherz app on my cell phone and looked through scores. The pressure at this shoot must be high because there weren't many who would of shot a 285 nfaa. i found this to be interesting

John Demner 292 566 Greyson Partlowe 285 550 Scott Bills 283 555 John Dillinger 283 550 Ben Rogers 279 548 Rick Stonebraker 279 537 Jeff Daniels 279 537 Dwayne Martin 278 540 Mark Lynde 276 540 Fawn Girard 276 534

Those were The top 10 lancaster qualifiers. Good shooting but not as many shot 285 like demmer said. Some people on his list didn't get to 275. And good shooting Richard Barker in the finals. He felt no pressure

Too many thoughts to write them all after reading this. A few quick bullets: - Howard Hill punched a lot of paper - The only true comparison of accuracy is target archery - I killed 13 deer with a bow in 2016. John Demmer killed less. He is still a better shot than me. What we do in the woods can't be compared. Too many unknown variables. - The mental game is what it comes down to at the top. I shot three x 300 ends at home before going to Lancaster. I shot 286, 290, & 292. I toed the line at LAS and a demon possessed my body. I could not aim no matter how hard I tried. I can execute the shot as good as anyone, but I could not do it there, when it mattered. It was my first time in a tourney in 4 years and I crumbled on the line. - I seem to be a glutton for punishment. I'm going to Vegas where I'll likely eat humble pie again, but I would not miss it for the world. ;-)

Good luck in Vegas.

Funny thing is Rich didn't even shoot a 275 to qualify 274 to be exact. He got himself shootin right at the right time in those matches. If you did a two day scoring demmer would walk away with it most times. And a combunation of Scott John grayson Ben rounding out the podium. But what fun would that be to us spectators. I don't think the matches always shows the best archer but they sure do show the archer who's shooting best at that particular moment.

Longcurve,

There is a HUGE difference between a 285 on an NFAA 300 round (blue face, 5-4-3-2-1 scoring) and a 285 on a Vegas round (multi-color face, 10-9-8... scoring). They are not apples-to- apples.

Shooting 270 on a Vegas round is averaging 9 points per arrow. The 9 is the outer yellow, which is the same as the outter 5 ring on an NFAA face. While not likely, shooting a 300 with 0 X count on an NFAA face would be a 270 on a Vegas face.

"Far as Rich's win goes pullin sting is pullun string. Better add him to the top your list. :-))"

And how! He must have had ice water running through his veins. It was a pleasure to watch him destroy the 11 ring like that.

I can definitely sympathize with Jimmy. It's way different going to a shoot like that than shooting at home or my local shop. The last round I scored at home before I left for Lancasters was a 542. Definitely over my average but I was feeling pretty confident. I shot a 503 in qualifying. I think I was having more trouble with shot execution than aiming. I got to meet a bunch of people and I had a blast. I'm definitely not sorry that I went. It was an awesome shoot.

This type of qualification, elimination event for some their strategy is simply to qualify, why push yourself and put unnecessary pressure on yourself when it's not required, well played Richard.

The magnitude of the event will keep scores lower also, when you see 1000+ people at a tournament it can be intimidating.

Congrats to all that shot, you had the balls to let the whole world see what you've got. There is a bunch of shooters that won't hand a score card in at a local event. Only in the USA this happens, other places people accept failure and just a stepping stone to success.