Traditional Archery Discussions on the Leatherwall


Star system, The rest of the story

Messages posted to thread:
2 bears 19-Mar-17
Rick Barbee 19-Mar-17
AK Pathfinder 19-Mar-17
GF 19-Mar-17
limbwalker 19-Mar-17
Stycks 19-Mar-17
David A. 19-Mar-17
Dkincaid 19-Mar-17
2 bears 19-Mar-17
Frisky 20-Mar-17
David A. 20-Mar-17
Harv 20-Mar-17
neuse 20-Mar-17
Homey88 20-Mar-17
Bowmania 20-Mar-17
badgerman 20-Mar-17
Jim 20-Mar-17
David A. 20-Mar-17
Homey88 20-Mar-17
David A. 20-Mar-17
Shifty 21-Mar-17
Jim Keller 21-Mar-17
mgerard 21-Mar-17
Missouribreaks 21-Mar-17
David A. 22-Mar-17
Jon Stewart 23-Mar-17
falcon 23-Mar-17
Babysaph 24-Mar-17
Hiram 24-Mar-17
Bob Rowlands 24-Mar-17
ronald rector 25-Mar-17
Hiram 25-Mar-17
Matt Ewing 25-Mar-17
2 bears 25-Mar-17
David A. 25-Mar-17
David A. 25-Mar-17
David A. 25-Mar-17
Runner 25-Mar-17
Stycks 25-Mar-17
David A. 25-Mar-17
Hiram 25-Mar-17
Babysaph 25-Mar-17
Hiram 26-Mar-17
David A. 26-Mar-17
David A. 26-Mar-17
2 bears 26-Mar-17
Hiram 26-Mar-17
2 bears 26-Mar-17
David A. 26-Mar-17
David A. 26-Mar-17
Hiram 26-Mar-17
2 bears 26-Mar-17
Hiram 26-Mar-17
David A. 26-Mar-17
David A. 26-Mar-17
Hiram 26-Mar-17
David A. 26-Mar-17
David A. 26-Mar-17
Hiram 26-Mar-17
From: 2 bears
Date: 19-Mar-17




Don't believe I have ever started a thread before. It doesn't look like there is a lot of room to write here,O.K. just figured it out.There are many folks here that I have learned much from. I am going to name a few though I know I will leave many out,going from memory. David Alford,Jeffer,Rick Barbee, Jimmy Blackmon,Arne Moe,George Stout,Jim Casto,Arne the bow maker,Frisky is as knowledgeable as he is funny and many others. None have been freer with their time and knowledge,as well as money. I believe David has been reading my writings and decided here is a guy with a little know how,ability,and many years of experience,that still has an open mind. A rare commodity these days. For what ever reason he chose to share with me. Maybe he just took pity. I received a box full of toys in the mail and a lengthy email the next day. Yes he explained the system and sent some teaching aids. He didn't ask for one dime. Compare that to other instructors. I believe there is even one he recommends on "the thread" for around a $100 an hour. It is the simplest thing you can imagine yet so ingenious. The controversial threads were feelers. He hinted of that numerous times.He made a couple of selections and friends. I was a lucky recipient. I am for ever indebted. I have only shot a dozen or so arrows indoors but I am here to tell you a light bulb came on. In my 75 years I have never see such a simplistic idea. I wonder how in the world with the number of bows and the thousands of arrows it never occurred to me,and it never would have. He is a better man than I. I would never share it with the name callers at any price. I do believe he is going to but in his own sweet time on his own conditions. He is accomplished in many fields yet people still call him a liar. He is going to berate me for saying this but he is deserving. Besides it is nothing like the flaming,name calling,and such I expect,for writing this article. That is perfectly O.K. and maybe it will even take some of it off him. A small price to pay for what I have been made privilege of. I will write more after using it a while. I sincerely believe it will stand the test of time. We have all experienced the new anchor,new bow,etc that immediately showed improvement,for a few days. This is different, BEFORE I EVER DREW AN ARROW,I could see it,feel it,and experienced something like never before. Maybe that is why I was chosen,maybe the Force was in that box, maybe I am easly impressed. Let the games begin. It is all good, just keep an arrow in the air. >>>-----> Ken

From: Rick Barbee
Date: 19-Mar-17

Rick Barbee's embedded Photo



I love it when folks step up, and make positive/constructive posts about things they have experience with.

By the way, thanks for the kind words.

Rick

From: AK Pathfinder
Date: 19-Mar-17




Nice job Ken. Way too many haters out there who won't give any slak to someone trying to help. Guess they're just mad cause they didn't think of something new. Good luck with it and let us know how things progress.

From: GF
Date: 19-Mar-17




I've given David a little heat now and again over the fact that this has been so long promised and so late delivered.

But I appreciate all of the help (and a damn fine bow!) that I have received from Ken and not only has Rick helped me a LOT in understanding some things, but I've also seen his shooting videos as well

And if these guys say that David has something impressive to offer.... I'd love to see it in person.

Unless it only works on Texans....

From: limbwalker
Date: 19-Mar-17




Well done. Good to see a positive thread and thanks to whom it is due. Good for you.

From: Stycks
Date: 19-Mar-17




I have also been working with David, can't say enough about the guy and how he has gone out of his way to help me with my fingers by sending me a package also that trugly helped. Without his help i would be using a xbow this year. He will always have a place to hunt in wisconsin whenever he wishes.

From: David A.
Date: 19-Mar-17




Thanks Ken and Bill for the very kind words. I'd like to help everyone but am leaving for overseas in a few weeks and time is short.

babysaph, it's a big system with many methods from aiming to releasing. I think there is going to be a film on it and the development of it (separate from the instructional videos). We'll see, but I agree this has to be the year. I'm happy with everything except better bows, and that is something outside my capability and expertise.

From: Dkincaid
Date: 19-Mar-17




Perhaps one day it won't be such a secret I need all the help I can get. I ha e even considered the voodoo to get rid of tp

From: 2 bears
Date: 19-Mar-17




I am so happy yet surprised that their are more good posts that flames but it is still early. I see that there are others that benefited from an open mind, rather than name calling. I know at least one more personal friend and beneficiary of Davids system that hasn't checked in yet. If you think that it doesn't take time for a busy man to write a book,get it published,make a film,and seek out manufacturers. Go for it. I have stated in threads if you publish a book. I will buy it. Ever day I don't learn something is a day wasted. Oh no! the book deal reminded me I left out Viper. His book and the second revision is top notch. Sorry Anthony,your book is right here on my desk.He takes time to post short and to the point, and still people debate it. I would tell them, to go buy the book. Which,ever one,that don't already know it all should do.I know I left out others and will do my best to make amends, as I think of them. Another site had a blow hard that constantly bad mouthed Viper and debated ever point in his book. Yet he never wrote one. I left that site long a go. Keep shooting,keep learning,but most of all have fun with it.>>>-----> Ken

From: Frisky
Date: 20-Mar-17




"Frisky is as knowledgeable as he is funny"

That statement is blatantly false. I'm a serious person and have little knowledge. I thought everyone knew that by now. I talk the talk. I never walk the walk.

Joe

From: David A.
Date: 20-Mar-17




I have both editions of Viper's book. Excellent. Why his work was criticized in some threads is beyond me. A significant achievement.

From: Harv
Date: 20-Mar-17




I'm sorry I'm ignorant, please tell me the names of the books your are speaking of. Thanks.

From: neuse
Date: 20-Mar-17




I don't know what the star system is, but yes, Viper wrote a great book.

From: Homey88
Date: 20-Mar-17




Does the STAR method help out with target panic? I'm struggling big time!

From: Bowmania Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 20-Mar-17




"Shooting the Stickbow" by Anthony Camera.

David put me down for a copy of the book or DVD. Due to some ailments I'm having to live archery vicariously.

Bowmania

From: badgerman Professional Bowhunters Society - Qualified Member
Date: 20-Mar-17




I have posted several times indicating how David helped me the past two winters while in Arizona. I am 81, have Arthritis in both wrists and a messed up Rotator cuff on my drawing shoulder. David worked with me on my form and showed me some alternative ways to release which has helped me a great deal. David is a very unselfish and resourceful person who goes way out of his way to be helpful, and I will always be indebted to him for this. I was pleased to see Ken's post as I have also been on-line with him and know how desperately he wanted to continue shooting also with severe hand problems. Leatherwall has many gracious, kind, intelligent and resourceful people and David is one of them. Joel

From: Jim Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 20-Mar-17




I think that we all just need to keep an open mind! I'm sure that folks laughed at Mr.Allen and Mr.Jennings, those folk did not have an open mind!

From: David A.
Date: 20-Mar-17




Homey88, I think it does. That's why when I gave the free clinic I esp. welcomed people with TP.

From: Homey88
Date: 20-Mar-17




If I would have been closer I would have given it a try.

From: David A.
Date: 20-Mar-17




Well, it wasn't the best time of year either. Just too much to cover for the limited number of students. I hardly demonstrated, only Joel saw that later because we shot for a few hrs.

I want to help everyone, but no time now, I leave for overseas in a few weeks. The book and releases should be available year end.

From: Shifty
Date: 21-Mar-17




I would really like to see a DVD come out and the release ,i would gladly purchase both ,after nearly 50 yrs of doing mechanic work and contruction work ,3 shoulder injuries,i am still pretty strong but i work out 6 days a week so i can still shoot the bow ,but have started to had stiffness in the fingers. So saying this i can see that the Star system may be of use to me in the future. Thanks in advance David.

From: Jim Keller
Date: 21-Mar-17




I have arthritis in both hands. I'm a full time taxidermist who will have to keep working til I drop. Any help would be appreciated. I tried the talon but couldn't get the hang of it. I make my own tabs as I need thick ones for my finger joints. I look forward to seeing what you come out with.

From: mgerard Compton's Traditional Bowhunters
Date: 21-Mar-17




I also recommend Viper's book. I find it to be a great resource beyond the shooting and set-up sections, which I hope will get me back on track after shoulder rehab. David, I hope you are able to publish or put something to market before I am too old or physically unable to benefit. :>)

From: Missouribreaks
Date: 21-Mar-17




Paul Brunner made some excellent videos on shooting the bare bow. G.Fred has produced some good information in his books.

There have been many good instructors and there will be many more. Good luck to all!

From: David A.
Date: 22-Mar-17




I'd like to help everyone but have no more prototype releases except just a few I have to keep. I will be overseas soon but should be more sometime after my return in the fall. David

From: Jon Stewart
Date: 23-Mar-17




I think all of can use or will need help at some point. We are not getting any younger. Would like to see a CD come out soon.

From: falcon
Date: 23-Mar-17




DVD would be good

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 24-Mar-17




What is the star system?

From: Hiram
Date: 24-Mar-17

Hiram's embedded Photo



WELL IF IT WORKS FOR JUST A HANDFUL IT IS WORTHY.

Who eats?

From: Bob Rowlands
Date: 24-Mar-17




+1 on Rick B with positive instructive posts.

From: ronald rector
Date: 25-Mar-17




David has always been there to be helpful and answer my questions. Thanks you David.

Thanks: Ron

From: Hiram
Date: 25-Mar-17

Hiram's embedded Photo



David, are you using a release aid?

From: Matt Ewing
Date: 25-Mar-17




Well I just learned that David got one of our brothers shooting again. So he is ok in my book!

From: 2 bears
Date: 25-Mar-17




Well guys David has been in contact with me about ever other day with emails and pictures.He couldn't begin to put it all in threads on an open forum with all the snipers disputing ever other sentence.There will be a book and film.

Any question I have, no matter how trivial he comes right back with an answer. Ever time he reveals more information on the Star System as well as helping me. I can answer some of your questions.

David shoots with a release. Actually many kinds of them that he made. He uses a one pin sight to experiment and test things. He also shoots with a tab and no sights. He is a pretty well rounded archer and quite good,I might add. The Star system has nothing to do with a release or a sight pin. You got that? He helps people where they need it. I have bad arthritic hands. He made a couple of different aids for me to try out. He told me a number of different ways to shoot and I have yet to even mess with the Star System.I want to decide on which method suits me best and causes the least pain over a period of time before I even begin working on accuracy.I will get form and my release down solid before I adapt to the Star system.

I have worked with the aids enough to realize the value in them. I have shot and tuned all kinds of bows,all my life. Bare bows,sights,scopes,and compounds. I have even experimented with a laser.I know the difference in gadgets and junk that don't hang around long. Most of you won't like the ideas and inventions. They most likely won't be legal in competition and are not "TRAD" That sure don't mean they can't help thousands of folks to shoot better,to keep shooting more years,to take game cleanly, and to just enjoy archery. They work,period. Enough said. >>>-------> Ken

From: David A.
Date: 25-Mar-17




Hiram, I prefer my releases over glove/tab although I invented a new way to use the human hand that also works for glove/tab. This statement has created a lot of criticisms not to mention outright disbelief to the point of hysteria, but I stand by it. This is the method Rick Barbee has complimented.

But the releases make bows quieter (yes quieter than glove or tab), more accurate and are more fun in my opinion. As far as the tournament legality, all the methods for glove and tab would be legal and so would many of the other methods although they would place the archer in a different class than trad. They are all legal for bowhunting...

I've tried to keep all methods simple and workable within the constraints of traditional archery. While many critics were so confident I had absolutely nothing, zero, zilch, nada; and that it was IMPOSSIBLE to create anything remotely new in this old human endeavor, I have always told the truth.

From: David A.
Date: 25-Mar-17

David A.'s embedded Photo



I meant to say the methods for glove and tab would be legal within whatever tournament class you are already in.

For those who still can't wrap their heads around the reality of the STAR Method being legitimate rather than an enormous and long running hoax, in the near future I will post the result of my meeting and shooting for 3 time National Coach of the year and multiple Olympic Coach, Coach Alexander Kirillov.

From: David A.
Date: 25-Mar-17

David A.'s embedded Photo



I have no idea how that happened...

From: Runner
Date: 25-Mar-17




For a second I thought you transformed him into a shed,

From: Stycks
Date: 25-Mar-17




Well I am a believer in the star system, from the little bit I learned from you David it's working. It is a process and I may never master it nor do I ever want to shoot a 300 round either. My releases now are clean and can shoot more 10 rings, if I do miss it's a little high or low. More accurate out to greater distances with the release aids. I have limited use in my fingers I can at least be in the hunting game now. System may not be for everyone but I'll be one. Just can't thank you enough sir, keep up the great work and get that DVD out.

From: David A.
Date: 25-Mar-17




There will be a short video with Coach Kirillov's impressions in a few days or a week.

From: Hiram
Date: 25-Mar-17




I appreciate it but until I have bad fingers I will not shoot a release. They are not legal anywhere at any shoot that I know of unless you shoot with Compounds.

I know a release is deadly and JIM CASTO mentioned it to me and I tied on a loop under so I was gun barreling down the shaft and it is really accurate but why? I Think when my hands go and I have to shoot a release I will just hunt with a Compound.

Of course I do not care how anyone else shoots or with a release or a sight, more power to you I am not the Trad Police but do you know of any major Trad events that have a release aid class of shooters?

Now I know that the so-called "Snipers" or whatever 2 bears insinuated may be a hindrance but you have to admit that for years you have only said you use the STAR method and nothing else.

At this point in time you will not have any secrets on shooting a Bow and Arrow that most of us have not used or tried or currently use.

There are many good coaches out there like Len Cardinale and Rod Jenkins and Blackmon, Magera, Viper and more.

The mind, the mental game and even mental triggers from Joel have all been covered.

I guarantee you people who are having TP or just cannot shoot will jump at anything that gives them a temporary fix or some kind of new confidence but it will not last long.

Fact is. there is no substitute for good form and an aiming method barebow. Howard Hill proved that many years ago.

From: Babysaph Professional Bowhunters Society - Associate Member
Date: 25-Mar-17




What is the star system? Why can't anyone explain it?

From: Hiram
Date: 26-Mar-17

Hiram's embedded Photo



Because David makes people sign a contract when he tells them not to talk about it because he plans on making money from it.

I tell others how to build a warf, it is nothing new under the sun and neither is any and all methods of shooting a Bow.

From: David A.
Date: 26-Mar-17




So much misinformation. Never made anyone sign a contract. As far as the releases go what is a tab or glove but a protector of the fingers which are the release agents. It's really the same with my releases, my finger or thumb still is the release agent. Or maybe we should in some releases, the shoulder is the release agent?

There's no gears or hard components and IMO they are more fun than shooting tab or glove, although you're missing a lot of what has been said above as much of the STAR Method is about using tab or glove.

From: David A.
Date: 26-Mar-17




"it is nothing new under the sun and neither is any and all methods of shooting a Bow."

Yeah, that's been the counter argument all along by people who don't know anything about it. And many people have said I can't shoot and probably have the crappiest form of anyone on the LW.

From: 2 bears
Date: 26-Mar-17




I am sorry but that is an out right lie. I don't believe any one has written more about David than I have. I doubt any one has been helped more than I have. David has never asked me to sign any thing. Perfect example of all the miss information. There is very little that is right, written by folks that know absolutely nothing about the subject. David has given much of his time and knowledge to help me and others and not asked for one red cent,much less a signature.

If you think nothing has changed and there is nothing new in archery. Maybe you should compare ancient bows with modern laminated re-curves,carbon and foam. Take a look at a new compound,look up and down the Olympic or Vegas shooting line. How about stabilizers,silencers,skinny strings,sights,range finders, etc etc etc. How many different kinds of tabs,gloves,and releases are on the market. How about expanding heads or a thousand different kinds of broad heads. Lots of new stuff and before the year is out there will be some more revolutionary new things. Patience friends.>>>------> Ken

From: Hiram
Date: 26-Mar-17




Do you or do you not have people sign a document that basically has them signify they will not disclose what you teach them? Yes or no?

From: 2 bears
Date: 26-Mar-17




I just answered that. >>>------> Ken Oh well here it is again. I HAVE NEVER SIGNED NOTHING NOR HAVE I EVER BEEN ASKED TOO. Even if it were true what difference would that make. Doesn't a person have a right to protect inventions until he gets a patient. Does he have to tell all before his book comes out. Please help me to understand where you are coming from. Maybe I am missing something.Have a good day.>>>------> Ken

From: David A.
Date: 26-Mar-17




No.

From: David A.
Date: 26-Mar-17

David A.'s embedded Photo



Hiram, I'm seriously considering giving a lot away for free in due time. I'm not sure that is the right approach however, and I can't guarantee it, but I sure am thinking about it.

I'll post Coach Kirillov's video in a few days. My methods do use parts of existing valid form such as proper grip, bow arm and back tension. But there are new elements. You and other critics are betting the house so to speak on the impossibility of it all.

You will be proven wrong. That's why the very first thread here in the LW was titled "Doing the Impossible". And it turns out, "impossible" is just a word.

From: Hiram
Date: 26-Mar-17

Hiram's embedded Photo



I have heard this so glad you put it to rest, thank you!

From: 2 bears
Date: 26-Mar-17




Nice chart, Very good to review once in a while thanks. >>>------> Ken

From: Hiram
Date: 26-Mar-17

Hiram's embedded Photo



Wrong on what David? That you have nothing new under the Sun that will change the way Champion Archers are shooting right now?

I appreciate it David, really I do but I am going to need to see you shooting at some major shoots and winning to actually see you are correct or it is just not applicable.

I realized you had some very odd views when you eluded that you might outshoot Demmer and the others at Lancasters Barebow competition with a 52 inch Bow.

That is what get's you the skepticism and I am not your critic because I have nothing but talk to criticize.

Being a good Bowshot is nothing more than connecting all the dots of form, tuning and consistency along with a good mental game.

You need to show up at the Tennesse Classic and some other Major shoots and win, then I will say you are the King but until that day and you showing no one anything other than you use a release aid I will be skeptical.

Do what you say, say what you mean and walk the walk!

From: David A.
Date: 26-Mar-17




I won't because I'm going to solve the golf swing as well. I just have a thing for biomechanics.

As far as walking the talk I shot for Coach Kirillov using my actual 54" hunting bow. He said I would have been an Olympic champion, that's a direct quote.

But, in all honesty, it's not talent. No no no.

From: David A.
Date: 26-Mar-17




I'll repeat, no major talent. No no no. Only resolve, one of my favorite words. If I ever have another boat, she will be RESOLVE.

From: Hiram
Date: 26-Mar-17




Do you believe this DAVID?

"Kirillov says that no matter what the ultimate goal is, the basics remain the same. The same skills that win a tournament are also the ones that make for the most humane hunting. "

From: David A.
Date: 26-Mar-17




Yes, the basics remain the same. You're correct Coach Kirillov insists on that and he won't say you have excellent form if you don't.

I demonstrated just two of my techiques to Coach Kirillov. He said he had never seen anything like it and was impressed. Yes, they rely on the basics, but they add something. Here is his opinion:

https://youtu.be/WutT9gSl49Y

From: David A.
Date: 26-Mar-17




btw, Hiram, that was using a 54" hunting bow and 600 gr. hunting arrows.

From: Hiram
Date: 26-Mar-17

Hiram's embedded Photo



Yes and from the take away on one comment from the Coach on balance. Jenkins calls it "Balanced pulling" and the Bow is allowed to jump to target without a grip on the handle section that deters the movement. I like the 1234567 counting method for sequence and thinking follow through and pulling as the aim is occurring.

I have a life study to learn the skill set and hopefully have many years to get better.





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