Does changing nockpoint change tiller?

I think it does...fwiw (not much) I read a well-known expert making that point.

Why fiddle with tiller on 3pc bows if changing nockpoint does change tiller?

Any time you change the position of the string hand, you are affecting tiller so I would agree with you.

jk:

You are exactly correct, not only changing the hand position on the string, but it also changes if your drawing hand elbow changes position. A high elbow puts more pressure on the third finger than a level elbow. In conjunction with that, when you change bow hand grip from high wrist to low wrist you change tiller. This why its impossible to tell someone where to set his nocking point. Why is all of this important? The end result is getting the limbs in sync, so they return to battery in unison.

Bob

...imo changing tiller by changing nockpoint does something beyond just getting limbs in synch: it changes point on.

So..I can change tiller/point on with fixed crawl...for example: same bow, same arrow, point on at 20 yds or 30 yds (did that yesterday).

What am I missing?

I think the nock point changes the true tiller more than the grip does. The subject comes up often here and I seem to be alone in my thinking but my logic is that when we shoot an arrow are fingerss are no longer on the string. The bow limbs are responding to pressure from an accelerating arrow. If that arrow is higher or lower than it should be the string will not be pushing straight forward if not tillered to the spot for the nock.

Badger, you are no longer alone.

Sounds like the main loss in a 1" high nock point (e.g. fixed crawl) if arrow flies reasonbly well might be velocity...which might not make any important difference. ?

Badger: I'm going to disagree with your premise. Yes at release the fingers are no longer on the string, however that is a moot point as the limbs are already bent by the location of where the fingers were before release. The limbs are not going readjust to some other setting before moving forward, they are just going to move forward uniformly.

Bob

I agree more with Bob, and think they will move forward uniformly if they were loaded uniformly... and many bows aren't. Hence arrow porpoising and other ill fates, and the need for fulcrums and nock points to be moved.

The limbs aren't responding to the arrow anywhere near as much as the arrow is responding to them... or there would never be any such thing as an arrow porpoising in flight. In fact, Badger, if what you prescribe is true, why do you bother to achieve any semblance of relative limb balance at all? Just tiller it 'whatever', and let the arrow automatically make all adjustments to the limbs upon release.

+1

Your finger unevenly loaded the limbs before release. It ALL matters. Grip, hand position, tiller, nock point. Sometimes you don't notice because it all just 'works'. It's when it DOESN'T work that you start to put it all together.

Had lunch with Jim Ploen about a year ago, he had a 21st Century bow with him that was #7. He grabbed it within 12" of the end of the top limb. He said you could shoot an arrow from there, would just have to find the nocking point location to make it work. One of THE best lunches I have ever had and cannot tell you what I had to eat :)

fwiw it's obvious that "tiller" means something different to someone who makes self bows Vs someone who sees bows as tools for launching arrows in various different useful ways (e.g. changing point on via fixed craw et al.

Sometimes words have multiple very different implications.

Jeff, if the tiller is off and the nock point is not adjusted to correct it will porpoise.

Bob, on the contrary, the very first thing those limbs do when you take your finger off is adjust to the arrow, instantly. You can see it very clearly in slow motion. Your limbs will always have exactly the same tension on them because they are connected by a string. Under acceleration I think the arrow weights about 1# or so. Enough to offer resistance to the limbs for sure. It will cut the speed of the limbs in 1/2 roughly using a hunting weight arrow as opposed to dry firing.

Steve, that's my point, if what you say were true, if the arrow was able to instantly adjust/correct the limbs, we would never have to adjust tiller or move a nock point because there would be nothing to correct. You're disproving your own theory.

I am pretty sure that a stringwalker will change tiller every shot when shooting 3D. The ones I shoot with are amazing.

DDave

The arrow will not correct the limbs, the limbs will adjust to the arrow right or wrong. Tiller needs to be right and nocking point still need to be right. Small variances can be adjust out by moving nocking point and that's how most of us do it.

The limbs don't NEED to 'adjust' if things are right. And if they're wrong, WE make adjustments to the bow to correct its affect on the arrow... because the arrow cannot.

Jeff you are playing with semantics, whether the limbs need to adjust or not is how well the bow is tillered and where the nocking point is. I never said they will correct themselves. By adjustment I am talking about the transition from finger hold to launching an arrow and 100% of bows made since the beginning of time have in common the fact that the limbs have to make an adjustment here.

No, you didn't say they would correct or adjust themselves, you said the arrow does it because it's the only thing left holding the string after release.

I'm not playing with semantics. I'm trying to get you to commit to your theory... perhaps try to PROVE it, or at least make more sense of it without contradicting yourself, because as you've stated it so far, it shows incorrect in my experience.

Jeff, the simplest terms I can think of. The string will always form a straight line from the arrow nock to the nock on the bow. Or whatever else id holding the string like fingers for example. When you take your fingers of the string you have a moment where the string is not straight, first thing it does is straighten back out because physics says it has to.

Badger,

"The string will always form a straight line from the arrow nock to the nock on the bow."

That's not what I've seen in slow motion video, and it shocked me.

the string being straite to the nock don't tell how much tourque is being applied to top and bottom limb by the drawing hands downward or upward pressure. my grandson droped both elbows down while drawing and visably severly torqued the string, his fist pointing to the sky at release. it hit the ground 4ft in front of him , looked at me with wide eyes and mouth wide open..lol almost shot himself in the foot with a bow.. the string can be torqued in many directions. the limbs affect the string also, stability ect....ron

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