First..no one cares if you think this is complicated. Tell it to the guy that just shot a perfect score on a 40 target course :)

Dewayne Martin shows how he can set his nock point high to lower his point on distance. Of course, you are intentionally setting your nock TOO HIGH.

I was experimenting with this today and hit a place where my point on wasn't going down any more but my bare shafts were hitting like a a foot low.

Are my fletchings doing too good of a job of correcting? In his video, he is using pretty standard looking 4" feathers.

And it COULD be that I just didn't go far enough....I wasn't measuring. I just watched another of his videos and he went a full +1" to get the 18 yard point on.

Dude...what will you do with 18 yd point on? How will you get +1"?

Might be good with 3D Vs the 30yd point on I'm currently relying on.

One issue is the flight of particular arrows. My Easton Carbon Ones with spin vanes are incredible but I'm puzzled about their flat trajectory.

Which video?

Oh yeah that was confusing...I don't WANT an 18 yard point on. Was just saying that he did it.

He had a 3/4"+ nock that gave him a 25 yard point on, a 4" gap at 20 and 4" hold over at 30 yards.

I'm curious to see what my gaps are like if I get 25 point on that way.

Great work there by Dewayne. So few people have the combination of skill, patience and analytical ability to get to this level of detail. Well done.

Does your broad head not dive at the end with such a high nock point?

try a single crawl.

Good suggestion/demonstration.

Don,

Watch the second video...in that one, he goes extreme with an 18 yard point on and shoots broad heads with it.

Hiram, I string walk and face walk too. I am just curious to see how the gaps work out using the high nock point VS a really high anchor. I shoot more comfortably with a medium/high anchor and of course, my bows shoot smoother/quieter without a crawl.

My normal point on is 30-40 yards depending upon the bow/draw weight/arrow weight.

Different methods of achieving a shorter point on give different results and have different advantages.

Oh...

And if I shoot some local ASA events, they don't allow face or string walking. I practice gapping but I like it a lot more when they are smaller

I've heard of folks doing that. But I've never seen it demonstrated that way or tried it. Pretty dang interesting.

I know people get worried about having a higher nock point but the proof is in the arrow flight and the POA being right. Do not be afraid to raise it.

I've been pondering taking in some IBO shoots this spring and summer. Since I'm officially a geezer now, I figured I should shoot the senior "Trad" class.

Anyway the maximum shot is like ASA, 25 yards. Only trouble is I've got a 35 yard point-on. Soooo, I've been fooling around with a lot of things. Ended up raising my nocking point to 3/4" and footing my carbon arrows with aluminum. The arrow is now 34" long, but it gives me a 25 yard point on.

If I'd seen that video Dewayne's two months ago, it would have save me a lot of pondering and frustration.

raise your anchor? A finger is about ten yards.

I tried the high nicking point. My point on was still way past Dewaynes and my broad head took a dive at times. I think his release must be part of how he makes it work. Also seemed very hard on my fingers.

Interesting!

Jim , if you are going to an IBO event even the white stake may be out to around 27-28 yds at times. I have always made my point on at that distance and gaped in from there. Dewayne always sets up just as he said. Don't be afraid to change things up until you find what system works best for you. Cal PS and trust me you do need system !!

Jim, Come to the I.B.O. World and we can compete against each other in the senior division!

Don,

If it was hard on your fingers then it was throwing off the balance of your particular bow. And weird finger pressure would make it really difficult to have a clean release.

Similar to a string crawl, different bows and shooter techniques will be more compatible than others.

Also, Dewayne was shooting a short 4 blade. I can imagine a scenario where a big 2 blade maybe turned horizontal could cause some odd planing as it fights against the fletching if you had to REALLY raise up your nocking point.

Amazing stuff. I watched those videos a few months ago and have barely begun to understand and apply.

This thread demonstrates how Leatherwall's multiple perspectives can help comprehension, and how powerful videos made by a champion archer can be.

JustSomeDude/John approached these issues well, in a different way, with his earlier thread. I hope somebody will find it and post its name/date here.

Senior? Pretenders to the throne. LOL. I'm in the "Senior-Plus" division of the PSAA. I suppose that's fogey x-2. Next year, at 72, they plan on experimenting with an even older class. Good lord...a fogey x-3 class is approaching. I hope I can even carry my bow around the field course. ))

I don't know if they are trying to make us look better, or think we can't shoot further than fifty yards. But the fact is, a lot of us fogeys and fogettes are still out there shooting, and I see that as a great thing. Shoot archery guys....and shoot it as long as you can possibly do it. And congratulations to guys like JRW, Duane and Calvin.....Jimmy, et al, who show the way for younger folks as well. It's an awesome sport.

I would guess some tinkering with arrow length would be needed as well??

I just spent some time with it and wasn't really working for me. I can hear the fletchings howling more than they normally do...

I'm going to try it with a different bow and see what happens.

It worked better with heavier arrows. Same bow with 9gpp setup vs 8gpp. Even better on a lighter bow setup I have with 10gpp.

Plus, my nocks are a little high already. I think that makes a difference as well

"Jim, Come to the I.B.O. World and we can compete against each other in the senior division!"

Compete? COMPETE! I'm under no illusions here. No way will/could/would I be competitive. I just like to shoot and this is something I've been wanting to do. :^)

Jim, that's the best part of Trad Worlds you can do it any way you want, it's all good there !! You will not regret coming I am sure of that !!

When you hit that point, where bare shafts were moving but point of aim was not, thats when you needed a tiller adjustment. If you were raising the nock, you needed more positive tiller or a stiffer lower limb.

Ah...makes sense. I might go back and try it

DeWayne is on Facebook and he will reply to your questions. He helped me get my point on down to 20 yards with an old Ben Pearson Palomino I did that for an indoor shoot.

I messaged him...will see what he has to say.

Tiller definitely affects it but I still can't get good bare shaft closer than a 30 yard point on.

I can get my point on down to 25 with low bare shaft and the 9gpp arrows. With the lighter 8gpp arrows, the bare shaft is REALLY low.

Jim, Then maybe we could just shoot together. If you can only go to one, you might want to go to the classic.

I figured something out...Elevated stick on rest raises the arrow. In my head, I was thinking 'higher front sight makes me aim lower'. But what it actually does is straightens the arrow upwards so you are aiming 'up' more.

I took off the rest and shot straight off the shelf and immediately got 25 yard point on. I lowered the nock and have gotten pretty close to 25 yard point on fletched and bareshaft. The bareshaft is still low but I want to stick some Velcro on before adjusting more.

why not just put a sight on your bow?

Kinda reminds of the guy that had a suit made that didn't fit right. So he went back to the tailor and told him he wasn't happy with the fit. The tailor suggested he twist his torso to the right, hold his left arm up at that angle and always keep his right foot a little sideways... pulled everything nicely into place.

He did this and was walking down the street, a couple of guys noticed him walking and one said he was a little sad as it looked liked the man has some physical disability, the other said ..yeah.. but his suit fits perfect :)

See post #1 sentence #1

I'd be curious to see a broadhead the size most of us shoot shot along with field points to see if the impact points the same.

Here is his broadhead

So the answer is 'yes'.

I shaved down the bottom of my Hoyt rest to get it lower and retuned.... My 25 yard still tends to be slightly high but I got Zwicky Eskilites (141grn) grouping with my 150grn field points fletched and bare shaft.

Zwickey Eskimo 165grn were consistently low and right. And I was testing from 25 yards.

Brace height matters! Don't be afraid to move it.

I heard back from Dwayne,

He doesn't worry that bare shaft will hit low. He just looks for good fletched arrow flight. Raising the nock high will make bare shaft hit low. But a tuned arrow will still have good clean left/right flight.

Broad heads off,bare shaft low,howling feathers. Scan through the threads see the results of mere mortals with high nocking points.If you think you are getting better/cleaner flight you are kidding your self. Dwayne is a Pro. not taking any thing away from him. But he does it for one reason only to WIN, period. It is called gaming the system. Is flight still acceptable for the game? Of course but note the short stubby broad head. The bolt for adjusting center shot. Listen to the bow noise. I believe all Vegas shooters have an X ring point on or at least another spot on the target. They vary arrow weight, point weight,arrow length, what ever it takes to get point on. Clean/quiet flight don't win no points. Ever see an Olympic or flight competitor with a 1" high nock point. Different rules for different games. Pick your goal then TUNE for efficiency or ADJUST for best results.>>>-----> Ken

Yep.

I think theres a happy medium

Well those videos were of Dewaynes hunting bow. He shoots a 25" riser in competition. You may have a learning curve to get the right arrow to tune, but you dont have to be a pro like Dewayne to get great results. If you take your current tuned or not tuned setup out and raise the nock 1", your more than likely going to now find your arrow is stiff.

Perfect example of thinking outside the box.

There seems to be a point (for me) where the bare shaft still groups with fletched as you raise the nock. Then it starts to drift down below fletched but still close and your flight is still good. Your Broadheads will still group too.

Then move it up a bit more and the bare shaft NOSEDIVES. Your Broadheads might still be ok. Anyway, I found a nice slightly high at 25 yards that I really like. Slight hold over at 30 yards.

But my 20 yard gap is much larger than Dewayne's. I'll have to measure it again but he was only 4" high at 20 and 4" low at 30.

"Dewayne Martin shows how he can set his nock point high to lower his point on distance. Of course, you are intentionally setting your nock TOO HIGH."

"TOO HIGH" for what? Did Dewayne's accuracy decline? Did he not have more than enough power to do what he wanted?

"...my 20 yard gap is much larger than Dewayne's. I'll have to measure it again but he was only 4" high at 20 and 4" low at 30." Mine is point on at 20 OR point on at 30, depending on how I set my nock. I do shoot 60# ... maybe that's the reason.

Mine is point on at 20 OR point on at 30, depending on how I set my nock. I do shoot 60# ... maybe that's the reason.

also Dewayne uses a fairly high achor. That also reduces point on.

I set up my 35# ILF with 9 gpp arrows today. 6" high at 20, 2" high at 25 and 4" low at 30.

Myself and Dewayne will be at Tenn Classic and Trad Worlds I want anyone that would like to talk to either of us, to just come up and ask for help or an opinion on what or how we may help you. Our two cents is always free !! LOL Cal

Thanks Cal!

JK, My "TOO HIGH" comment was to fend off the :why would you want to intentionally set your bow out of tune" people :)

I'm in the middle on that one. At this stage of my shooting development, I'm not going to WIN anyway. But I want to shoot well without learning it in a way that doesn't directly improve my hunting. That's why I don't want to go too crazy on 'detuning my rig' to get a low point on.

"detuning" is not a generally useful word but, as in guitars, it can be sometimes...e.g. "D-tuning."

If you shoot a very fast bow or a heavy one with very light arrows, and if you want to shoot point-on, something extreme with nock point may be useful. Me, I just nock the arrow half inch or so down from the 90 yd nock.

The reason I shoot the 4 blade Slick Trick Magnum 125 has nothing to do with needing a 20 yard Point on.The reason I shoot them is theyre a great broadhead that's never failed me on an animal. always a pass thru and always together after the shot and always a great blood trail and always scary sharp right out of the pack. However the year I made this video I switched to a 200 grain 3 blade cut on contact head only because of a different set of limbs I wanted to hunt with, and they too handled moving my nocking point up to get the desired point on.

I only made this video because of a few people telling that it wouldn't work and that you couldn't adjust nocking point to aid in achieving the desired PO. I knew I could because I had.

Sorry I'm so late responding to this thread but I just seen it last night. Ive been really busy and just haven't been "trolling"...lol

Dewayne Martin

To maybe echo Dewayne, my probable 3D setup is now 60# longbow, Easton Carbon One w/140gr & vanes, point on at 20 yds OR 30 yds my choice.

Thanks for sharing the info Dewayne. Hope to see you at the TN Classic

Just to add to the fray, I shoot everything Longbow, Recurve, wood arrow, carbon, aluminum at 3/4 high nock with field points 2 blade and a 3 blade broad heads with no problem what so ever. Maybe just lucky ? Cal

Cal...perhaps a tribute to your long limbs and clean release.

Have you explored skinny carbon? Axis or Carbon One?

To lower point on, you can raise the nock point, change rest and anchor height, use heavier arrows, use longer arrows, and hold varying distances below nock. Also change arrow speed by bow design or draw wt. Can anyone add to the list?

Some of these will put you into a different class as far as tournaments. No problem with bowhunting rules!

David, add this to your list: spin vanes vs big feathers.

However, at my stage of late-blooming skill development and my proclivity to Occam's razor, I'm reducing variables. A heavy 66" ASL bow, spin vanes, skinny shafts, 3-under, BW tab, and fixed crawl look (for the moment) like my 3-D solution.

JK, added. thx. Any others?

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