From: Crow
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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If i build out my side plate with a tooth pick or whatever will that makevthe arrows weaker and what will it do to poi?Im thinking the arrows would act weaker in spine nd group more to the right of where they group now. Am I way off or thinking right.
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From: bigdog21
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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NO it will make it act stiffer if anything but if your tuned good I really don't think you will notice it maybe a heavier tip if needed.
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From: Rick Barbee
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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Just the opposite.
Building the strike plate out will make the arrows act/shoot stiffer.
If an arrow is weak, build out the strike plate to make it act/shoot stiffer.
If an arrow is stiff thin the strike plate to make it act/shoot weaker.
Rick
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From: Rick Barbee
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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OH, and as far as point of aim is concerned. That depends on how you are aiming.
Take me for example. I use the length of the shaft, as well as the point to get my windage. If I move the arrow/point out it will make me shoot a little right for a while. The opposite for if I move it in.
That only last for a short while, and then my eyes & brain get in line with it.
Rick
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From: Bowmania
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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If I move the arrow/point out (putting something behind the strike plate) I've moved the arrow left before the shot and it will hit more left.
I'm right handed and so is Rick. Rick states the opposite, because his brain screwed up the shot. LOL.
I'm talking tuning purposes. You want the arrow to hit exactly above or below the point you're aiming the arrow at. If your right handed and it hits right of the spot, but something behind the strike plate (moving it left). I usually use stick matches or one split in half.
Bowmania
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From: Hiram
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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The more linear with the string, the more power is exerted into the arrow, the weaker it will make the arrow. Offset stiffens because not all the power is exerted in a straight line. You do want your arrow to offset to the left a bit so the arrow starts off in the correct rotation each time because of the effects of paradox. Just outside the string or so from the tip back, not a bunch will do. You do not want your arrow to be set inward past center shot because that will make the arrow erratic and never start out right from the bow, The reason release shooters set the arrow at center shot, because the paradox is more vertical and not horizontal from the string slipping off the fingers to the sides.
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From: Crow
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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Thanks for the information. Still got alot to learn
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From: jk
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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To see all this in action, shoot the same arrow with your current plate. Then remove the plate and shoot without it. The latter should put your arrows to the right (assuming you're right handed).
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From: Crow
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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Ok
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From: Thin Man
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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Crow,
You can easily experiment with side plate thicknesses by using masking or painters tape to temporarily hold any material combo in place on your riser.
Thick it out ... thin it down ... the tape will hold well for a shooting session in order to observe results. You can switch out to another configuration just about as fast as you can cut the tape with scissors.
I do this all the time before I finally commit to a satisfactory configuration and glue it down permanently. Works with elevated rests, too.
It's fun (and educational!) to observe differing shot behaviors in this manner within a single shooting session. Once you strike gold - then it's on to the glue and off to the races.
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From: fdp
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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AAAAaaaannnd for the stopper. Much of this can be almost completely neutralized by shooting along the draw force line of the like Jim Ploen or Keith Bain.
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From: Therifleman
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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Generally a thicker side plate will make your arrow act stiffer. I have, however tuned my bow to shoot for me by adding a thicker, but softer side plate. Being right handed the effect it would likely give you is to position the point further to left in your " sight picture" causing you to adjust and causing the arrow to impact more to the right. When i went to a softer side plate it did not make my arrow act stiffer, but instead I saw more consistency in my bareshaft tuning. I believe Rick Welch uses this to tune students bows to shoot where they look.
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From: Hiram
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Date: 23-Jan-17 |
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YEP,,
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From: Fletch
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Date: 23-Jan-17 |
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Stepping in for Rick Barbee's comment...and Bowmania's response to Rick Barbee...
He (Barbee) wrote (sic) "...moving the arrow point further left (building up the strike plate), made him AIM more to the rightfor a while (he is right handed) until his brain "adjusted."
He didn't write the IMPACT was to the right. He wrote he AIMED more to the right, (because building up the strike plate / moving the arrow point to the left-for a righty shooter moved the arrow IMPACT to the left).
That's how I read his comment. AIMING more to the right, to adjust for the IMPACT to the left, due to a thicker stikeplate.
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From: Wild Bill
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Date: 23-Jan-17 |
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"AIMING more to the right, to adjust for the IMPACT to the left, due to a thicker stikeplate."
Fletch,
So are you saying that, aside from gap(verticle adjustment for distance), some shooters estimate windage(left or right adjustment)?
I understood left and right corrections to be done through shaft spine selection and brace height.
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From: Fletch
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Date: 23-Jan-17 |
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I don't know if they consciously estimate L/R windage. I took Rick Barbee's comment to mean that if a change is made to the strikeplate (build out moves arrow to left), it impacts the point of impact. An instinctive shooter, I presume, will eventually have his/her brain "note" the difference and "correct for it" subconsciously "forcing" the shooter to have a different sight picture to "correct" the point of impact.
You CAN affect an arrow's point of impact by altering the strike plate thickness as part of tuning. It would also depend on how much you need to move the POI. If your riser isn't cut past center "enough", and you want to move the POI to the right (for a RH shooter), you reach a point where you have "no thickness" for a strikeplate. You may have to sand/file the riser cut past center more, to permit "moving POI" to the right. It may not be the best way to adjust for L/R arrow impact, but it is A method to tune a bow, aside from weaker/stiffer spines and heavier/lighter points.
If I remember my calculation correctly, a 1 mm movement L/R AT THE STRIKEPLATE (riser wall), moves the POI about 1+" at 20 yards. You can measure it yourself. Shoot a group at 20 yards with your current set up. Rubber cement a 1/16" (about 2 mm) piece of leather or plastic to your strike plate, and reshoot your 20 yard group. See how much it affects/moves your POI.
If you consider an archer using a button adjuster on the riser, they can quickly and easily mover the arrow's distance closer/further away from the riser wall-which alter's point of impact. Sort of like "clicking" a firearm's rear sight windage adjustment left or right to correct a bullet's point of impact.
Not trying to stir the pot. I was just trying to clarify a point Rick Barbee wrote that may have confused readers because he wrote "AIMED" vs "MOVED POI". It's the same thing in an end result, just a different way to express it.
I'll just sit back and eat some popcorn and let the posters post.
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From: fdp
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Date: 23-Jan-17 |
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"I use the length of the shaft, as well as the point to get my windage"
Everyone read that again, and take it in the context it is written.
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From: Rick Barbee
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Date: 23-Jan-17 |
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Let me see if I can explain it better.
Once I have a good spine tune with some wiggle room in it, and knowing that the rear of the arrow never moves from the same spot in my vision:
If my arrows are flying the way I want them to, yet they are impacting a bit left, I will move the arrow left (adjust strike plate out).
Since I aim down the shaft this forces me to bring the arrow point visually to the right to bring it back in line with the rear, which moves the point of impact to the right.
I do just the opposite if arrows are impacting a bit right.
Understand this - 1/8 of a turn on the bolt moves the arrow very little, and has little no no impact on the tune of the spine, BUT will make a significant change to the aiming point of impact at 20 yards.
Clear as mud? 8^)
Rick
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From: Wild Bill
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Date: 24-Jan-17 |
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"Since I aim down the shaft this forces me to bring the arrow point visually to the right to bring it back in line with the rear,"
Ok Rick, now you're throwing me off.
The arrow is always straight, and, I'm assuming your anchor doesn't change, therefore, are you not pivoting the point of the shaft to the right, hence aiming to the right of the point you want to hit?
You made a correction at the side/strike plate, so, why doesn't your aim remain the same?
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From: quiverman2
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Date: 24-Jan-17 |
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Aiming with the whole arrow is like shooting with the iron sights on a gun. Move the front sight left will bring the barrel back right when you line it up.
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From: Rick Barbee
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Date: 24-Jan-17 |
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[[[ quiverman2 said: "Aiming with the whole arrow is like shooting with the iron sights on a gun. Move the front sight left will bring the barrel back right when you line it up." ]]]
^^^This^^^
Rick
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From: aromakr
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Date: 25-Jan-17 |
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Quiverman2:
You cannot compare a rifle bullet with an arrow, there two different cats. rifle bullets don't have to bend to get around the bow riser like an arrow does.
Rick:
I totally disagree with your theory. using your thinking on this point; please explain to me why a bow cut 1/8" less than center will need a weaker spine(lighter) than the same bow cut 3/16" past center, assuming everything else is the same?
Moving the strike plate does not change the spine of an arrow. Nothing will do that unless the arrow is made shorter/longer or the point weight is changed.
Everyone seams to forget that an arrow after leaving the archers fingers, the string moves off the end of the fingers, pushing it away from the archers string hand. The arrow then goes through a series of osculation's. If the spine of the arrow is too weak it will impact to the right of the point of aim (right hand shooter) if the arrow is too stiff, it will impact to the left of POA. How do you correct these conditions?
Arrows impacting right of POA; increase spine of arrow or increase thickness of strike plate. For impacts to the left do the opposite. It doesn't require much of a change. Usually an increase/decrease of 1/16" will equal one spine range.
Bob
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From: Rick Barbee
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Date: 25-Jan-17 |
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Bob, you are not following what I'm saying.
No, changing the center shot position of an arrow does not change the spine of the arrow, BUT changing the center shot position does change how the arrow reacts coming off the bow, and thus allows you to compensate some for a weak, or stiff spine without having to change the arrow in any way.
Rick
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From: Rick Barbee
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Date: 25-Jan-17 |
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[[[ aromakr said: "Arrows impacting right of POA; increase spine of arrow or increase thickness of strike plate. For impacts to the left do the opposite. It doesn't require much of a change. Usually an increase/decrease of 1/16" will equal one spine range." ]]]
Bob, where arrow attitude due to spine is concerned, how is what you are saying here any different than what I said? It isn't. It's exactly the same.
NOW where AIMING down the shaft is concerned, one has to have the arrows already within a decent tolerance of tune to adjust center shot for aiming purposes, and that adjustment is minuscule compared to the normal adjustments made for spine accommodation.
Rick
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From: quiverman2
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Date: 25-Jan-17 |
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Aromaker, I'm not compairing the bullet and arrow. I'm compairing the sighting methods. Your anchor and the rear sight would be the same and the front sight and the arrow tip would be the same. When I aim, I don't use the bow, I use the arrow. When the arrow and bow is in tune right, the arrow will go where the tip points. At that point, you can use the arrow as the sight.
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From: quiverman2
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Date: 25-Jan-17 |
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Aromakr, sorry spelled your handle wrong.
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