From: born2hunt
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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So I've been looking at modern recurves. The Hoyt's, sky's, and DAS. I thought it would be cool to try one of these out with a sight and see how I like it. I LOVE are recurves. My shooting on targets is great. But my nerves get the best of me in the woods. I don't want to hunt with compounds anymore. Figured maybe this would be a good way to go. Maybe after a deer or two my composure will improve. And in the meantime I have a fun new bow to tinker with. I was wondering who has shot the das and what y'all think as that's the one I'm leaning toward.
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From: Buglmin
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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DAS was made by Dave Sosa, the guy that the Trad Tech was copied from. It was a huge blown out mess. Dave was great friend, and his original DAS bows before the Dalaa are highly sought after and not sold very often. He sold the company to 3Rivers around 2007. The DAS connect is an extremely reliable, solid connection. I love my DAS and my Dalaas. I've seen the issues with some limbs not working, but it's an easy fix about sanding the limb butt ends. I've yet to see or hear of limbs delaminating from this issue. The limbs from 3Rivers are a high quality limb, and limbs from Win&Win fit the riser perfectly, as well as the Sammick limbs, which were the original limb used by Dave.
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From: Okiak
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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I have a 17" Brownie Dalaa and a 19" Tribute. These and the rest of my ILF style risers all use the DAS/Hoyt connection system. Absolute reliability with ease of tuning and quiet performance. Wondering which length of riser you're considering. I recently was browsing through the new 3River catalog and was amazed at the line up they now offer including risers and limbs.
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From: badgerman
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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I have a
I have a DX5 DAS, which is the 15" riser with carbon foam limbs. Its probably one of the best shooting bows I've ever owned. It pulls smooth, fast and points very well. I've also owned and shot many bows in the 60 years of shooting traditional. As mentioned earlier its' not ILF friendly. Joel
dx5
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From: gofish
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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I have 2 Dalaa's one a 3 Rivers model and one Gen 2 riser and limbs. They are hard to beat for a hunting bow quiet, fast, and adjustable to shoot where you are looking
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From: Hiram
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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10% mot=re adjustment in the limb tiller than ILF.
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From: Bowlim
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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DAS got the ball moving on the modern recurve for trad and hunting. David had the vision, and deserves huge credit.
- The idea was that metal risers are good, and FITA/ILF limbs are good and a great resource to mine for cheap/non-custom/high performance limbs.
- His other belief was that the ILF limb mounting system was not suitable for a hunting bow, so he made his bows so that they were more like 3 piece take-downs the hunting/custom buying community was familiar with. This was also some imaginative thinking.
Huge bun fight ensued in which pro DAS and pro ILF forces contested. One could still argue all that, but the fact is the market has spoken and ILF is where it is at. DAS offers ILF adapters, no serious ILF maker offers DAS adapters. ILF could offer more adjustment, but the fact they don't tells you all you need to know.
So in moving from the compound to the recurve, you should definitely go ILF. I am thinking of the Hoyt Satori in 21", but 19" is a good starting point, and there is lots of choice there.
I am not sure what the nerves are that you have, but my guess would be TP, and if that is the case, buy a bunch of cheap limbs like 25,30,35,40, and build your bow with those rather than some big name stuff, It is the only way I know to be sure you start out with enough options that you don't get hung up on some weight that will just make your TP worse. I wouldn't use a sight either, It sounds like a good idea, but with where we are today on gapping I would go that route. For instance if you end up buying some combo that doesn't really work with your sight, you can end up with more hassle than just using the arrow as a sight, and you can experiment with instinctive which has it's uses in this picture also.
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From: George Vernon
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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DAS, to me, will always be the Master Hunter I got from Dave when he first brought them to the market. A lot of folks use 'DAS' and "Dalaa' interchangeably after the sale to 3Rivers. They share many design elements, but riser materials, I believe are very different. Dave used high strength, hardened aluminum from the aircraft industry. The machining and finish is much better on Dave's original bows than the current Dalaa models I have shot. Feels like silk. Nothing wrong with changing materials and use of different machining to get to a lower price point.
To me the Master Hunter will always be in a class by itself. And, if you want high performance limbs for the DAS connection system, just call Bill Dunn at Zipper bows for a set of his Z4 limbs. Best carbon limbs I've ever shot.
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From: M60gunner
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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In a quest for a "best bow" I have considered DAS as well. I am finding this thread very informative. I have yet to shoot a DAS bow, not any around here I am aware off. The concept of having more tunable bow/arrow features appeals to me as well. As for limbs the Z4's from Zipper 3Rivers sells them as well. I have ILF now but agian it is that quest that keeps up my DAS interest.
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From: dean
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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I shot about 200 arrows through a DAS one day a few years back. The bow felt awkward to me, but that open pin DAS sight system works. A sight shooter from 60s always said, "Shoot Through the sight pins, not at them." With the DAS sights I found it easier to swing draw on the target and just the open sight trap the target than when trying to put a pin on the target.
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From: Viper
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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b -
Why would you think a new bow is going to change what's going on between your ears? Yes a sight might help, but you can put a sight on any bow.
If you just want another bow to play with, then go for it.
The only difference between the DAS coupling system and the ILF, is ease of use and out of the box limb availability. Both work, and Hoyt had a DAS-like system nearly 18 years ago. It's no longer being made (for good reason), despite a few devotes.
I have an original DAS riser and it's ILF.
Viper out.
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From: Bowlim
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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Isn't the DAS adjustability just a late to the party kludge to deal with the fact that you used to be able to adjust ILF but not DAS, so they developed a klunky adjustment system. A system does not determine how much you can adjust the limb, the basics of the limb, and at what point you loose good limb performance affects it. We could make ILF pockets that rotated through 360 degrees if it made any sense. What makes sense, particularly on an expensive piece of gear, is exactly where ILF is already. One of the main points of either system was the ease of getting good limbs so you weren't stuck with just the one set. Having some daffy series of screws so you could murder limb function wasn't part of the plan.
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From: Okiak
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Date: 21-Jan-17 |
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I think we may be mixing up two types of adjustability. Hiram was describing the tiller or preload adjustment that ILF/DAS connection allows for, he is correct when he stated that the DAS connection allows for a greater range.
The other adjustment that is being described is lateral limb adjustment. If you have limbs that are not centered you can adjust laterally to correct the problem. With the exception of the new 19" Tribute, DAS connection risers in the DALAA family don't allow for LLA. The ILF variety does so when Bowlim states that DAS is late to the party it is because the Dalaa family of bows have only recently been offered with the ILF option including LLA.
I've been messing around with ILF/DAS bows for 8 years and have never needed LLA. Just my personal experience.
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From: Viper
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Date: 22-Jan-17 |
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Ok -
If the riser is straight (including the limb pockets), there's no need for lateral adjustments. Most companies now include that adjustment as a kludge for less then perfect tolerances.
DAS' thinking was that his risers didn't need the lateral adjustments. Yes, I discussed it with him.
Viper out.
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From: ky_hunter
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Date: 22-Jan-17 |
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I had some DAS limbs i converted to ilf. Mighty fine limbs, bout the best ive shot.
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From: babysaph
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Date: 23-Jan-17 |
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What is the difference between DAS and Dalaas
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From: babysaph
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Date: 23-Jan-17 |
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And what is the difference between lLf and DAS
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From: Phil Magistro
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Date: 24-Jan-17 |
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Kevin, the original question was "What can you tell me about DAS bows?" There's no need to differentiate between DAS and ILF unless you want to also include the differences between DAS and models with screws. The connections are different, we get that. Some think better, some don't.
To answer the original question, David Sosa's design opened the flood gates to using ILF limbs on metal (and some wood) risers. The design is solid and feels good in the hand. It's a pleasure to shoot them, as it is a pleasure to shoot many bows. If you want a metal riser bow with the option to easily change limbs along with the availability of limbs from inexpensive to expensive, it's as good a choice as any bow out there.
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From: Clydebow
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Date: 24-Jan-17 |
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Earl Hoyt and Sky Archery offered their Sky Conquest in camo quite a few years ago.
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From: Bowlim
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Date: 24-Jan-17 |
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""And what is the difference between lLf and DAS?"
ILF connection utilizes a dovetail fitting / slot.
DAS connection utilizes a threaded thumbscrew / bushing.
KPC"
True statement, though the dovetail vs thumbscrew is not really that big a deal after the bow is strung, the resultant function of these much discussed systems is satisfied on most 3 piece bows by a small metal stud in a drill hole. I was working on my own scratch ILF version and the obvious hit me that those expensive little dovetail and spring units really don't do much after the parts are assembled. They are way over-engineered just for lateral alignment. There isn't a problem about that. The point is that the discussion is like arguing over not the engines in two cars, but their trunks. As long as they hold standard baggage, I don't care too much.
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From: Bowlim
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Date: 24-Jan-17 |
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"If you want a metal riser bow with the option to easily change limbs along with the availability of limbs from inexpensive to expensive, it's as good a choice as any bow out there."
To me the opposite is true. The moment one concedes that DAS and ILF are both good, DAS is the looser. That is why the whole thing got hot. David reasonably believed a hunting market would see something better about his approach, the solid factor, but once people overcame an early resistance to the whole metal and target recurve limb thing, which was not a slam dunk, DAS then became irrelevant, and they had to come up with reasons why it was better, that really didn't exist and the rest is history. Unless one can come up with a reason why DAS is a lot better, there is no reason to go that way. For one thing you have extra costs and futzing associated with adapting limbs to DAS. And I probably wouldn't buy old DAS limbs for my ILF, so you get a smaller market.
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From: Bowlim
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Date: 24-Jan-17 |
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" It wasn't until stand alone short ILF hunting risers started hitting the market that DAS reluctantly started selling the riser alone (as does 3R since they purchased the brand). That is when lateral limb adjustment and proper limb fit became an issue with some brands of limbs, including their own. No matter how straight a riser is, when it is sold with the intention of accepting a wide variety of limbs, from a variety of manufacturers, it should have the ability to accommodate those limbs...even if they aren't perfect.
This is not an uncommon issue, recognized by 3R, and was discussed at length some time ago on another forum.
http://tradtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52798&highlight=Delamination"
Valid, but, in the world where people don't have the DAS ILF thing to worry about, a lot of top archers seem to wish they could get the fixed risers still. The concession around that appears to be while the top OLY risers are now all made with adjustable fittings, they come out of the box locked down, precisely centered, as preferred by some of the top target archers in the world. And then there is the story of Jay Barrs winning the Seoul Olympic gold with a bent, fixed magnesium riser.
If you have limbs that need to be fiddled with at every change to extract their potential, then it undermines a key benefit of the system which is the ability to switch back and forth among weights.
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From: Phil Magistro
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Date: 24-Jan-17 |
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Bowlim, Just one point of clarification - I didn't say the DAS was better, I said it was as good as any bow out there, which it certainly is. Certainly that has been my experience. To each his own.
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From: Buglmin
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Date: 24-Jan-17 |
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I've been shooting DASs since 2005, with nothing but good to say about them. I started shooting a Halo ILF riser last march, and it cost me a big lion five days ago. The dovetail got full of ice and the limb wouldn't slide in. Cat jumped the tree... a DAS Dalaa now rides in my pack!
DAS limbs....lol, Dave used Sammick Extremes before things happened, then switched to W&W Winex limbs. I know, cause I used to order in Sammick limbs for him to do warranty work on. I never had issues with any of my risers or limbs. Say what you will, but the ILF riser, in the wrong environment, isn't the better riser compared to the DAS connection.
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From: Buglmin
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Date: 24-Jan-17 |
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KPC, Of course I waited to put my bow together. State law says your bow has to be cased while on a snow machine, and then trying to climb uphill through the snow, you need both your hands. Why would the DAS bushings be full of ice? The limbs were inside a pouch, protected. The riser was in another pouch, sticking up. Sorry, but I've yet to experience any issues with the DAS.
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From: Babysaph
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Date: 24-Jan-17 |
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I don't get the whole ilf thing. But I don't change limbs. I just put my limbs on and I'm good
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From: Graysquirrel
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Date: 25-Jan-17 |
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You either like, or dont like das risers. The das connection works well, and has a bit more adjustment than ilf. Its solid but so if ilf. Anyone with a slifgt but of knowledge can make either work. The das risers are straift. If you put Good llimbs on them. The lateral adjustments are not needed
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From: Buglmin
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Date: 25-Jan-17 |
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KPC, I do shows and seminars at Cabelas and Bass Pro. I'm around the archery and hunting department and my bows are always with me. Company wanted me on their media staff and offered their ILF bow to me. So, I hung up my DAS, my two new Bob Lee's and shot their ILF bow.
Wasn't cause it was a better bow, better suited for me. Just what they wanted in front of people's eyes and in people's hands. My new metal risered recurve isn't an ILF bow, don't have the options of the DAS or ILF, but then again, I never changed limbs on the risers like I thought I would. Never needed the 42# limbs I thought I'd shoot over the 52# limbs. I know you love your Titan, have for years. Know you were one of the first on a Titans bandwagon. Not bashing the Titan makers, ancient fight that's over. But I'll stand up for a DAS, always have and always will. Great riser, great design...
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From: bfisherman11
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Date: 25-Jan-17 |
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I have both ILF risers, limbs and a Das/Dalla. You can buy a kit to convert ILF limbs to Das connection and for a while I had a set of ILF limbs on my 17" riser.
I have it set back up with the Das limbs now. So, having shot both and especially for hunting I prefer the Das bow as it is and for me, more than a straight up ILF rig. Why? I don't know. I just do.
I really like my Das bow. The thing about both ILF and Das is that you have so many options. You can buy a grip you like, High med, low. You can adjust tiller which is a fine tuning advantage. You can shoot off the shelf if you are creative on both. I prefer the cheap plastic flipper but there are plenty cheap to expensive plungers out there. Also draw weight can be adjusted +/- a few pounds.
Yes you can put a sight and a quiver on both. I shoot both instinctive.
Not a big deal but if you unstring an ILF bow the limbs can come apart, not so on the Das. Again not a big deal.
Both are great, a big part of this sport is there is no one size fits all.
I have been shooting my new Border Black Douglas lately but have had an itch lately to shoot my Black Widow and my Das. It is all fun and I like to mix things up. I still have a couple ILF risers and limbs, as much as I like the metal risers I am fond of the wood risers too.
To address one thing from the OP, YES adding a sight will help your shooting. Practice with your bow and sight, the confidence you get with your setup will calm you a bit when hunting.
Good luck and have fun! Bill
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From: Bob Rowlands
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Date: 25-Jan-17 |
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People never forget. Scrub a cheap coat of paint and what's underneath gets revealed.
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From: Buglmin
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Date: 25-Jan-17 |
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KPC, In today's market, ILF risers are limbs are a dime a dozen anymore. China is making and selling somehow the better risers now, for half the cost of an American made riser. People want cheap... I still shoot wooden risered bows, love my solid micarta risered Bob Lee, but the small grips of the metal risers, tunabilty of the metal risers bows... my Halo riser is a great riser, loved it, still do. I had issues with it in September that I didn't like, and now regret selling people on it. A lot better risers and designs out there...
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From: born2hunt
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Date: 27-Jan-17 |
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Thanks for all the feedback guys. I'm learning a lot!
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From: Buglmin
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Date: 27-Jan-17 |
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Ha, wanna learn a lot? Trying putting an ILF bow together with dogs going nuts and your friends telling you to hurry up cause the lions getting restless!! Thought bowhunting was supposed to be fun and relaxing?
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From: JRW
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Date: 27-Jan-17 |
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All else aside, everyone who enjoys today’s proliferation of short hunting risers that take ILF limbs (with or without DAS bushings) owes David Sosa a huge debt of gratitude. He was the guy who reintroduced short metal risers to the traditional archery market. The fact that his risers would accept the same limbs as standard target recurves was even more ground breaking.
It may be difficult for some to imagine, but David took no shortage of abuse for what he did. Oftentimes people react with anger to change, and what David did was a huge change from the status quo. Unfortunately, it seems some folks still haven’t gotten over their dislike for him. Whether you like the DAS risers or some others on the market, this new wave of offerings really started with David.
Both the original and newer DAS risers are good, solid performers. If they fit your needs and you like them, you really can’t go wrong.
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