I just want to hear from some experienced archers that shoot Howard Hill style longbows with straight grips - for a person who normally shoots a high-wrist recurve, switching to a straight-grip longbow, how much does your draw length decrease? If I have a 30" draw with, say, a super kodiak, changing to a HH traditional straight-grip bow, what would you estimate my new draw length is?

Impossible question to answer. Grab a Hill style bow draw an arrow and measure is the only way to find out.

Arne

What is your finger tip to finger tip wing span? Also, what is your reach with both hands on a yard stick placed on your breast bone with your shoulders relaxed and no stretching?

About 1 inch. It is easy to get an idea, you find a doorhandle, or in my case the edge of a thin cupboard door, and I stood next to it in the posture one uses when shooting high wrist with an extended arm which is a lot like pointing. I placed myself so I was touching the door handle, then I withdrew my hand till the palm was vertical and there was a bend in the elbow. Difference of about 3/4 to one inch. To view the difference when I was in position 2 I pinched the edge of the door so that as I peered around from the side I could see the gap and it hadn't shifted.

But the whole Hill draw length thing has many answers he was a big dude and drew from 26 to 28 inches depending on reports. So he probably could have gone 31 with a light target bow and a high wrist grip. But that isn't down to handle changes alone.

If you approach a Hill style bow with target form and treat it like a recurve, there will not be as much change. But as noted, Hill had long arms, shot with a fairly open stance with the bent bow arm and had a 28" draw, if one watches close on the vids, sometimes less. if you want to shoot with that straight up target stance that is fine, but you would be better off sticking to a good recurve with it. It is true that many people try Hill bows and do not stick with them, mostly because they could not or would not adapt to its requirements. Guys like Viper know how to get the most out of a recurve when shot with static form. Hill knew how to get the most out of a longbow for the shots that he wanted to make.

Thanks for the responses - sounds like my draw would shorten maybe 3/4 to 1 inch (give or take) if I use my current form, but if I adapt to more of a Howard Hill style of shooting, the decrease could be even more. I'm probably too old to fundamentally change the way I shoot though....

I probably just need to drive up to Montana and ask Craig Ekin to measure me for a bow...

One guessitmate would be measure your wing span and take it times .373. A 75" wing span would equal 28", same as Hill.

mark an arrow and let someone watch where it ends up don't try to overdraw the bow let it happen most likely 1/2 to 3/4" shorter

You don't have to bend your Bow arm and open your stance to shoot a Hill bow. You do however, want to let the bow fill up your hand naturally.

Just measured my wingspan, tip of middle finger to tip of middle finger - just about 6' even, 72". Using dean's formula, that would be a 26.9" draw, let's say 27". Does that mean a 28" arrow would be about right? Wow, that's very short for me - right now, I shoot a 30.75" arrow, at 30.5" the back of the broadhead will just touch my hand. But, with a shorter draw like that, at least I could use cedar arrows (my current arrows are 2317s, hard to find a cedar arrow to match that spine...).

Right now, my main go-to bow draws about 57 or 58 lb at my draw length - so, for a HH bow, I'd want to order one that draws 57 lb at 28"? or 57 lb at 27"?

Seriously though, I live in northern Utah, I ought to just do a road trip up to HH Archery and have The Dude just tell me what my draw length is, how to shoot, and what to order.

FYI, I'm 6'3"

My son is 6' 2" with a 74" wingspan, he shoots with less of a bend in his arm than Hill and has a 28.25" draw. He can out shoot almost everyone, packs tight groups out to thirty yards. I have 69.75" wing span and draw 26.25". I had a 28.5" draw with recurves anchoring with my index finger at the corner of my mouth. I expected to have a 27" longbow draw. John Schulz thought I was a bit too long, he was right. Some people do things to get the longest draw possible out of their frame, going with the longer the better philosophy. for certain types of shooting that is possibly correct for them. That type of shooting is better done with a recurve. The longbow comes into its realm when faster shooting and variable shooting is required. There are many who implicate that 3d shooting equals hunting shots, maybe from blinds or tree stands at standing close range deer with out the variables that a live animals adds. if you watch the you tubes of john Schulz 'Hitting 'Em Like Howard Hill' in four parts a few times, watch the postures and the timing very closely. See if that is what you want to do. Some folks get into thinking they are not going to change much or are planning on resisting that change, but when they really get into the longbow thing, they shoot more like Hill and less like their former target form past. If that style does not seem like it is for you, nothing wrong with that, and there is nothing wrong with shooting a long draw static form with a recurve. I would not try to use the long draw static form with a Hill longbow. I would bet real money that if you followed John Schulz to letter, you would end up at 27.25" of draw.

What Arne said.

Well yes, it is impossible to say for sure but you can make some estimates. But first, there are some doubtful comments above. Standing still measurements are no good; you have to work it out during actual shooting. You do not have to bend the bow arm elbow, you do not have to copy Howard's open stance and you do not have to cock your head to the right and forward. You might do some of those things as you work on bonding with your bow, or you might not.

Howard grew up on a farm (or plantation) and like many farmboys developed large fingers, hands and forearms from physical labor while young. He was comfortable with extending his bow arm less, leaving it more bent, than most men. And the photos and films show that he shot with his shoulders very open to the target. His front shoulder blade stuck out more than his rear one, the reverse of modern target archers. These habits produced his short draw length, probably just around 26". Some of his surviving arrows are that short.

I am about his size and was once able to draw a target recurve to about 31.5" by extending my bow arm and turning my front shoulder in toward the arrow. I later relaxed back from that to under 30" with a target recurve. With my straight grip Hill bow I draw an inch less, a bit under 29.

The way I measure is to use an arrow that is 30" to the back of the point. Then I ask a friend to watch e shoot when I am focused on the target and not on him and notice over a number of shots how much shaft shows between the back of the bow and the back of the point, and show me between his thumb and forefinger. I measure that and subtract it from 30. This is generally a good deal less than if I just draw without shooting.

Hill bows are best shot by feel and intuition and it takes time, weeks or months, to bond with it and develop your feel. Until you do that, you have not settled on the draw length and the rest of the form with which you shoot best. - lbg

Maybe no change at all? Too easy to measure for your personal results.

But, are you shooting vertical or canted? My vertical pull is over 30", but, 45 degree cant is 29". Btw, have not shot vertical in long many years.

There's a ton of formulas and each of em will be right on a few people but not everyone. Do it right n find someone who has a longbow n use an arrow to measure ur draw length. I knew a guy who used a 1x2 board and drew an arrow on it n measured his draw that way. It came out almost perfect. But like all formulas and other ways to measure its not gonna work for everyone.

Boy! I'm totally amazed at all these Hill experts, that have all of these specifications of how big Howard was, how long his arms were. and he had big hands and arms because he grew up on a farm. You don't have a clue what your talking about.

Bob

Longbowguy, you said "With my straight grip Hill bow I draw an inch less, a bit under 29." I'm not sure why that would be, unless your posture or technique changes. Can you elaborate a bit please?

If you change nothing but grip, i.e., high wrist to low wrist, you'll probably lose about 1/2 to 1 inch of draw length depending on how you measure it.

Probably only lose 1/2 to 1 inch by lowering your wrist. On the other hand, most Hill grips are 2 to 2 1/4 inches deep, while the throat of most recurves are in the neighborhood of 1 3/4 inches deep, so you would gain about 1/4 to 1/2 inches in your draw to the back of the bow, somewhat offsetting what you lose by lowering your wrist..

I draw 32 on recurve and 31 on a hill.

I think what Orion said makes sense - clearly, going from high-wrist to low-wrist will work to shorten my draw, but there will undoubtedly be other factors to consider, e.g. depth of the grip and form changes, if any. The question is, what approximate change in draw length can be expected? I guess the answer is, probably on the order of 1" give or take, but it looks like there's so many variables that you really need to get a HH style bow, then figure out how you're going to shoot it, and then measure THAT.

I do cant my bow, maybe 30 degrees? I don't know if my current form would be adaptable to a HH style bow, I hope so. I haven't done formal target archery since I was a kid in the JOAD program.

If I could go from a 30.5" BOP arrow to a 28" BOP arrow for a HH bow, that would be something of a coup for me, as I would be using arrows with a much, much weaker spine than I currently use, and the use of cedar arrows now becomes a viable option.

Just considering trying something different - saw a guy at our indoor 3D trad league shooting an osage self-bow with cedar arrows, the poor guy can't hit jack and the arrows fly like a one-winged seagull, but he sure seems to be having fun!

David. that only works for a person that anchor's like Hill did. If you anchor in a different spot. For instance higher up on your face, or down closer to your chin, it won't.

The only right way, and dependable way, is just like arne said in the 2nd post.

moebow has the correct answer!

You don't have to do everything the way Howard did it, to use his aiming method, and his style. That's a fallacy.

NOBODY can shoot like Hill. You have to shoot like you, and strive to be as ACCURATE as Hill.

In the book you mention Howard says that's the way HE shoots a bow. Not that it's the right way or the only way. That's the point that everybody misses.

And what you do or don't like about shooting is relative. I've shot Hill style bows for 30 years. And I have -0- trouble shooting them just with exactly the same stance and draw length that I shoot my ILF bows.

A Hill style bow is ONLY a bow and couldn't care less how you shoot it.

And I've never seen anyone else that could either.

I had forgotten about that in Hill's book. Out of curiosity, I measured myself. Dead on. I called my friends, had them do a quick measure. Three were dead on, one was a quarter inch long and another was a little less than a half inch long, but he does anchor quite far back on his face. While I don't care how anyone shoots a bow, I also think that some don't realize the advantages of using a longbow like Hill recommended. i also don't care whether or not it has anything to do with target scores, although we do enjoy taking our foam critters out to the woods, it still is not the same as the real thing. I am also not sure if the shape of the limb has all that much to do with with it, a low wrist recurve shooting the Hill technique can be very effective. The straight grip and the form still affects the draw length. I read cliche's all the time of how no one could take the same shots as Hill. Those he taught did pretty well. Hill was a great shot, he was not the only great shot, with a similar shooting style, so the odds are there that others can do the same. Many people simply do not understand how to do it Hill's way or have not put in the right kind of practice to get good at it, it really doesn't matter.

"I draw 32 on recurve and 31 on a hill."

What do you draw down in a valley?

dean, you and I go back and forth on this all the time.

But wouldn't you agree that one has to take what Hill wrote and Schulz taught, and apply it to their own physical ability?

Even John and his boys don't have the same look when they shoot. They all shoot using the same foundational elements, but it isn't exactly the same.

Ted and Lee Kramer (pretty darn good shots in their own right) use the same method, but don't look the same when shooting either.

Some people cant the bow more, some people cant the bow less. Some people have a very open stance, some don't. Some folks have a very straight bow arm, some a more bent elbow and so on.

Ultimately, there was only one Howard Hill, and he doesn't post here.

The difference in draw length between shooting a straight grip Hill bow and high grip recurve is mainly in the angle of the wrist each type produces.

Another difference is that the distance between the valley of the recurve is less than the depth of the Hill bow grip.

Aromakr must not have shaken hands with many farm boys. I recently met an older gent who had very large fingers, hands and forearms. Trying to be clever I asked him if he grew up on a farm. He said 'No. But I own a ranch. And I milked a lot of cows.' Some of the girls looked like they did a lot of milking too. And pitched a lot of hay. Some of them you wouldn't want to arm wrestle. - lbg

Actually, aromkar probably knows more about Howard, and his equipment then anybody in the country. And maybe the world.

fdp, from left hand to right hand I am also slightly different, my neck rotation is not quite the same so my stance is slightly more open. There are variations between Hill an Schulz and , of course, that has to do with the differences in physical make up. I see a lot of people that do not have the arm to shoot Hill style, at least not when they start. I have no problems with the way anyone shoots, but if one can emulate Hill with a longbow, there are some advantages when shooting a Hill style bow. Some think of the whole style as something that is haphazard is has its own specifics like any other form style. i shot tighter groups with my PAA set up target bows at very long ranges at times, but that whole thing does not work for anything that requires fast a varied responses. The way I prefer to hunt, being more of small game hunter than a deer hunter, I need that fast response ability. We only get one deer tag here a year, unless we get on some land that has control tags, so after that deer is taken, small game is the only game. To get a little Frisky about it, all targets all the time gets really boring or should I say bogus.

Well, this is embarrassing - looking around my man-cave, I have a HH-style bow that I made from a Bingham kit back in 2010, totally forgot I had it - it has a straight-grip. So I measured my draw by sticking a piece of cardboard on the end of an arrow and drawing back several times. Using my same draw technique (index finger anchored at corner of mouth, split-finger, about 30 deg cant), my draw shortens to 29.25", a reduction in draw length of 0.75". My draw actually varies from 29" to 29.25" (since this little exercise may show a slightly longer draw than actual shooting), maybe 29" is more realistic, but I know if I cut my arrows 29.5" a broadhead will contact my fingers at full draw, so just cutting arrows to 30" BOP is probably a good, round even number. Current arrows (with a recurve) are cut 30.75" BOP, as 30.5" will result in a broadhead contacting my fingers about 50% of the time.

Well, there you have it - 3/4" reduction in draw length, 3/4" reduction in arrow length.

Now just need to sell a few bows so I can order a HH - let's see, Big-5? Rino? Half-Breed? Ruffed Grouse? Cheetah? Decisions decisions...

FDP I am not sure how helpful those distinctions are. One of the problems around here is you get smart people who answer a question as far as possible from what the question was, or others who try to get as close as possible. All that is useful up to a point in providing more information, just so long as the questioner doesn't think the answers relative to the question are all stacked in the same part of the bell curve. Some of the answers border on irrelevant.

So every question could be reduced to: "hey buddy, you are your own special person, with his own special answer that just fits you". That is probably true of Hill style, or Olympic style archers, but those two schools while sharing fundamentals are noticeably different.

I think questions are best answered by sticking to fundamentals where appropriate, and to speaking about specifics of styles where appropriate. But then everyone is an individual and has their own way of answering questions...

Here is an easy way to check it.

Water,lol.

My recurves all have modern grips and are probably a medium grip. On a Hill your hand is flat which puts your wrist only a palm thickness from the bow. On my recurves the grip is deep enough that my wrist is a lot straighter than it would be on a HIll . So the bow is farther away from the wrist in other words the wrist is straighter. For me that makes an inch difference. Some it will be more and some less. A recurve may be thinner at the throat but its thicker at the heel.

A posed draw length and a working draw length are quite often different. A local recurve shooter here insists that he has a thirty inch draw, but when he shoots down from a ladder stand his draw is much shorter and his arrow flight reflects it as well. Also, with many people that go from recurves to longbows, over time their form melds more into the bow, so the aiming posture and the draw length changes. A posed draw is quite often not aimed or drawn the same as an actual aimed draw during a shot.

Mine stays pretty much the same but my bow is a 2pc takedown with a fatter grip

I shoot both a recurve & longbows. I also shoot a Howard Hill longbow.

When I shoot a recurve, except for the Fox Breed style, I draw 30".

When I shoot my longbows I draw 28".

I draw 30" with a recurve (med. wrist).

I draw 29 1/4 with my HH Wesley Special.

If you have a longbow to measure your draw length, Tracker7 suggested an easy way to do it. You may also use a piece of card board in the same way. Another way is to have someone mark the shaft with a permanent marker. Whichever way you choose, do it with a natural draw and not a posed draw. Do this several times to be sure you're getting the same measurements.

Better still, take a drive to HHA and have Craig measure your draw length for you.

Oops, somehow I've missed your last post. (My bad) LOL!

Whichever model you choose, I know you'll enjoy your HH longbow!

Great minds think alike!

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