From: GF
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 29-Nov-16 |
|
The thread on being limited to a single draw weight got me to thinking... So rather than hijack that one...
I've developed an interest in a non-recurved kind of a bow; likely candidates would be an Emery Stykbow or a Maddog Prairie Predator or a Savannah; one of the more affordable ones, for sure, though I'm not sure how strictly comparable all of of those really are... (So feel free to enlighten me)
So the question is... Compared to my #55@28" Howatt Hunter (which I draw to about #53, because it's a shade heavy), how many pounds would I have to go up in draw weight (input) to get comparable output? And how many more pounds would I have to go up to make it reasonable to say that the one bow really has more guts than the other?
THX!
|
|
From: camodave
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 30-Nov-16 |
|
You could get better performance with less draw weight simply by using a better string
|
|
From: Bowlim
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 30-Nov-16 |
|
On something like a Savannah which is a great bow, not a longbow, you would possibly even outperform the Howatt Hunter. It would be close.
On a real longbow, they can be pretty fast, but you might need to go up 10 pounds on some. If you get one that is the right draw weight for you, you won't care how fast it is. They are fast enough, and if you can shoot it, then it will be your favorite bow. Just don't chrono it. I was shooting my workshop yesterday. 4 bows: HH Big 5; Great Norther Bushbow; Adcock Hill; ILF with carbon foam limbs. Couldn't really tell the difference in speed at 13 yards. There was a 10 pound weight range. You could tell something from the arrow reaction though.
|
|
From: limbwalker
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 30-Nov-16 |
|
While the Savannah is indeed a great bow, it's not going to outshoot the Howatt Hunter recurve.
3-4# would be my guess, but this comment "Compared to my #55@28" Howatt Hunter (which I draw to about #53, because it's a shade heavy)" concerns me a bit about recommending an even heavier bow when a lighter bow might gain you some draw length and still cast the same arrow at the same speed.
|
|
From: George D. Stout
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 30-Nov-16 |
|
""3-4# would be my guess, but this comment "Compared to my #55@28" Howatt Hunter (which I draw to about #53, because it's a shade heavy)" concerns me a bit about recommending an even heavier bow when a lighter bow might gain you some draw length and still cast the same arrow at the same speed.""
Yep.
|
|
From: EricPootatuckArchers
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 30-Nov-16 |
|
GF - you can't go wrong with an Chad Emery Hybrid Stikbow - my go to longbow which I shoot most accurately is a Stikbow made by Don Dow. Chad learned under Don and builds a bow equally as excellent as Don. I have a 64 inch version at 45 lbs @ 28 inches, D97 fast flight string and it shots 55-60 lbs spine arrows with authority. Great bow with fast flight string - suggest you go down as opposed to up, say 50lbs at your draw length and you'll be very happy with the speed and save your shoulders over the long haul. Chad is a great guy to deal with as most of our bowyers are in this great sport.
(No, I don't rep bows for Chad, just an appreciative customer of another fine USA bowyer craftsman!)
|
|
From: Viper
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 30-Nov-16 |
|
GF -
First off, you said (or at least implied) that you're short drawing the DH Hunter because "it's a shade heavy". That kinda makes almost anything else meaningless. Especially if you're thinking heavier.
Next, the older DH Hunters were arguably some of the fastest bows on the market back in the day and don't give up much to modern offerings. You'd need a pretty darn good r/d LB to come close to the Hunter in speed. However, choosing the right string and right arrows make narrow the difference.
Next, even if you could match the speed of the Hunter, the sight picture would be different and that will mess up your "instinctive" or what ever aim you use, as will your tune.
Next, unless the Hunter was weighed on a scale, you don't really know what it weighs.
So basically, it's going to be a crap shoot. Just find a LB that you like and CAN HANDLE and learn how you shoot it.
Viper out.
|
|
From: JustSomeDude
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 30-Nov-16 |
|
I would say 15# and don't bother. Get a 45# Longbow and enjoy it
|
|
From: RJH1
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 30-Nov-16 |
|
I have chronoed those 2 bows, the savanna and the hunter, both 55 @28. The Hunter had been weighed and was 55 on the nose,. I never weighed the savanna, but it was marked 55. The savanna was about 4 FPS slower with the same shooter and arrows. I have found however that my point on distance seems to be just about the same (50 yards for me) with bows up to 8 fps slower than my hunter. The reason I know about the point on is that my hill style bow that is 2 pounds heaver and 8 fps slower has almost the same point on of 50 yds. Hope this gives you some of what you were looking for
|
|
From: Ollie
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 30-Nov-16 |
|
With my ACS longbow you would have to go down in draw weight by 3-5#. There are a few longbows that will outperform most recurve bows.
|
|
From: GF
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 30-Nov-16 |
|
LOL, Limbwalker...
I'm not "short-drawing" because I can't handle the weight; I'm drawing 27" AMO (25.5" from the valley of the nock to the pivot point of the grip) and that's where it comes out. If you can teach me how to get a longer draw length out of about a 64" wingspan, I'm all ears!
So my fault here for giving the wrong impression on that point, and I sure as heck did because when I went back because I wondered where you guys got that impression, I ended up wondering how anyone would interpret the post otherwise. So to clarify - by "a bit heavy" I only meant that it's probably a bit heavier than marked. I've only had it on a scale once and I can't vouch 100% for the accuracy of it, but that's what I had at my DL. And I shoot it pretty well, if I do say so.
So I don't expect I could gain much power-stroke from going lighter, but that does raise a question or two... for example, the influence of grip on DL - just looking at my own hand, flexing my wrist (as if I were shooting heel-down on a broom- handle grip) - that flexion moves the top of my hand a full inch backwards from medium-height grip position, so just that grip could cost me an inch. For which I would have to compensate with net poundage.
Interestingly, going from medium wrist to high hardly changes anything. Think about the minute hand of a clock going from 12:00 to 2:00 vs. 2:00 to 3:00...
And just one thought on the performance of that old Hunter - with a Dacron string from Cabela's on it vs. FF- compatible Bighorn hobbled with that same crappy string.... it'd take 3 chronographs and a Lie Detector to convince me that the Howatt is not substantially faster. Not necessarily a fair comparison, but still.
|
|
From: George D. Stout
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 30-Nov-16 |
|
ACS is a completely different and unique limb design, as you well know Ollie. Beautiful and impressive bows, but not like a Savannah.
|
|
From: GF
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 30-Nov-16 |
|
And nowhere close to the same price bracket!
|
|
From: EricPootatuckArchers
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 30-Nov-16 |
|
I have a 55lb Damon Howatt Hunter - from late 1980s. Shoots pretty fast. I wish it was 45lbs so I can use it more often. It will being going on the for sale block soon.
|
|
From: Pointer
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 30-Nov-16 |
|
GF..I don't think anyone can answer that except you by trying out some longbows until you find what you are looking for in performance. Most bowyers will let you try their bows before you buy. Personally I owned an ACS and a Tomahawk Diamond SS that would give you that kind of performance. None of my other longbows would. I don't know much about the bows you listed but the bowyers should be able to give you a good starting point as far as what draw weight will likely get you close to your Hunter's performance. Good Luck
|
|
From: Dry Bones
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 30-Nov-16 |
|
I think you are referring mainly to speed, "to get comparable Output?" Just my .02 cents but my longbow at heavier draw weight draws much easier then my recurve with less weight. Longbow is 51 at my 27, and recurve is 47 at my 27. I have never chrono'd either, Jeff did my longbow before he sent it to me, but even with his numbers I don't really know any more then I did before. Back to my point. You could probably step up 5-8 pounds on a longbow and not really notice the difference in feel, BUT, again just my opinion, you will not get the same speed you might from your Howatt. My longbow has been successful this year in the woods. I know it is not as fast as the recurve, but it is MUCH quieter and I just like the feel of it. Depending on the design of limb and materials used, you might get closeto speed/performance but I think you may be trying to make apples oranges.
-Bones
|
|
From: larryhatfield
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 01-Dec-16 |
|
The Viper shoots right with the hunters and the Savannah shoots around 3 fps slower. If you can find a Viper for sale I think you would like it.
|
|
From: Red Beastmaster
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 01-Dec-16 |
|
Back in '89 or '90 I was in the same place as you asking the same questions. Unfortunately we didn't have the Internet and the wealth of experience and knowledge found on sites like this.
I was shooting a 60# recurve and made the huge mistake of getting a 65# longbow hoping they would have equal performance.
Longbows (not hybrids) are a different cat. They take some time and practice to master. I was over bowed but did not realize it until much later. Heavier draw weight does not necessarily mean a better bow. Quite the opposite some times.
Do yourself a big favor and perhaps go even lighter than your recurve. With matched arrows, good form, and practice you will be pleased how well your longbow will do.
All my recurves, hybrids, and longbows are between 42# and 47#. I got smarter as I got older and am shooting better than ever.
|
|
From: 2 bears
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 01-Dec-16 |
|
I have a Savannah 45# with the tree and a Viper 50# both like new. I am 75 and going to have to cut back both on weight and bows. If interested comment here or PM Ken
|
|
From: Bowlim
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 01-Dec-16 |
|
"ACS is a completely different and unique limb design, as you well know Ollie. Beautiful and impressive bows, but not like a Savannah."
I just bought one. They had a lot of hype on them, but basically all any of that did was the same as lowering the limb weight slightly. As OL said when I pointed that out, "don't tell anyone". Cause there are a lot of ways to bias for limb weight.
I may have the wrong bow, but didn't someone set a flight record with the Savannah... Maybe someone on this board.
I looked it up, I got that wrong, it "crushed" a flight record.
|
|
From: larryhatfield
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 01-Dec-16 |
|
The Savannah set one new record and the Viper shot the first 400+ yard record for 50# longbows. They do very well at everything I use a bow for.
|
|
From: GF
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 01-Dec-16 |
|
Oh, is that all?
LOL
As far as "output" goes... I'm not necessarily looking to match speed for speed, because if a longbow is more efficient overall with a heavier shaft, then I would choose to play to its strength. Seems kinda stupid to ask a bow to do what it's not best at.
But I wouldn't care to go up in poundage and end up shooting the exact same arrow at the same speed; my Hunter dates to '89 or '90, and it is wonderfully light in the hand, as recurves go. Certainly a big difference between that and the Bighorn TD...
I'd be really interested to hear more from Viper on sight picture, though - I've really committed to aiming down that arrow, so I don't know if the shape of the sight window would register or not. Just because I'm not paying any attention to that window as I'm aiming doesn't necessarily mean that I'm not framing the shot with it...
|
|
From: Fuzzy
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 01-Dec-16 |
|
My 60# longbow is a bit faster with the same arrow, than my 60#recurve
I'm curious about your statement that you are drawing the 55# recurve to 53# because it's a bit heavy?
Do you mean you are short-drawing, not reaching natural anchor, because you are over-bowed?
|
|
From: Fuzzy
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 01-Dec-16 |
|
Sorry, I read your reply.
I'd go with a "short" long bow since your draw length is shorter, and I'd drop to 50#... you'll shoot a bow better that's slightly under your ability...
|
|
From: limbwalker
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 01-Dec-16 |
|
GF, sorry for the misunderstanding. When I read "short drawing" I just expect that's because someone is overbowed, not that their DL is less than 28" but I get you know. And that does make the question more relevant.
|
|
From: GF
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 01-Dec-16 |
|
100% my fault, John. 100%.Especially given your (ample) experience.
For whatever reason, I've always had good strength for archery & pull-up/pull-down/row exercises. Must be geared for it. Come to think of it, my son's science teacher told him that he has the biggest shoulder blades (proportionally) that she's ever seen on a kid... Probably a related item.
Anyway, I'm not at all intimidated by a few more pounds, and I'm willing to do the work to become able to hold the bow at full draw several times longer than I do in my usual shot sequence before I try to hit anything with it. I suspect that taking a brand new bow straight out to the range is a major mistake committed by... probably about all of us. ESPECIALLY if the new one is a bit heavier.
Some days it's better to be educable than smart!
But back to where I came in on this one...It sounds as though a fairly aggressive R/D bow really needn't give up much relative to a good recurve, which is pretty darned encouraging.
And here I was, wondering why so many people were recommending that I cut back on weight, rather than increase... when I realized how much I had edited down the OP here... Never mentioned this part.
Why heavier?
Elk.
Given the choice of limiting my hunting for the year to one week of chasing around after Elk back home and the 3 1/2 months of whitetail hunting that I can tap into here in the east... No contest. Make it two weeks and I'll even spring for a bull tag! I've missed out on an awful lot of hunting in the past 15 years, but it's starting to look like there's light at the end of the tunnel...
Anyway, I used to load up my hunter with a 525 grain arrow (call it 10 GPP), but have cut back to about 430 with my Trad Lites (about 8 GPP) and I really like the hustle of it. On the other hand, I used to shoot the heavier shafts at long range in practice, and the trajectory was a pretty minor issue. The one time that I shot the Hunter over a chrono, I think I got about 165 with the heavier arrows and 185 with the lighter, but I only took about 4 shots before the thing crapped out, so I have no idea if those numbers are really even close. But if I could split the difference at 9 and huck a 540+ grainer at a velocity half-way in between the two? Sign me up.
|
|
From: GF
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 01-Dec-16 |
|
@2bears - I sent you a PM just after your post - would love to speak with you about that Viper, especially. Just because I'm prepared to take Larry's word for it on how much I'd like it..
|
|
From: 2 bears
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 02-Dec-16 |
|
GF I wrote you a long letter and my computer dropped it just as I was trying to send. I re wrote it but it came back un- deliverable? I must have made a mistake in the address. Just trying to touch all bases here to reestablish contact. I can't get your PM to reopen to check address. Ken
|
|
If you have already registered, please sign in now
For new registrations Click Here
|
|
|