Hi,

There has been a lot of gum flapping about the "new" radical hooks and having invented the wheel anew from some noted European bowyers/limb manufacturers, when all they have actually done is incorporate some very trad designs and claim them as their own invention. Well, you watch this vid and make up your own mind. The design has been around for centuries - these hun bows used to produce havoc all over Europe in days long gone past.

enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47u_M0ivNbs

shoot straight - skookum bow

I forgot to mention that these guys shoot split finger - using a thumb ring, speed could be increased even a little more.

shoot straight - skookum bow

Doesn't incorporating old designs with new material lead to improvements? Like Model A to modern automobile?

Here are some other interesting designs, many of them having very large hooks (such as the Indo-Persian bows)

http://www.grozerarchery.com/index_b.htm

They do not even use carbon fibre and prices are VERY affordable.

shoot straight - skookum bow

What's wrong with innovation?? Should we just shoot hun bows and horn bows?? Should Skookum bows have taken an improved design and just thrown it out the window and stayed with the same old, same old?? I've been all over a European bow manufacturer's website and have yet to see where they claim what you say. Threads like this really show the hypocrisy on this website,,,,,neotrads ;)

@ flinger1 -

I have nothing - I repeat NOTHING - to do with Fred Anderson who makes the Skookum.

His bows are work of art and I could not even hold a candle to his skills.

And I am not a Neo-trad - whatever you may think such a thing is.

I shoot my 1996 Browning Maxim compound bow set at 70# when ever I feel like it and I don´t give a hoot what anybody else thinks about it. On some of the discussions on this here forum a guy can only be flabbergasted by some of the responses - the latest one that comes to my mind being the one about the elevated rest.

shoot straight - skookum bow

VERY low grains per pound but yes, very fast.

Those bows are Biocomposite also. As far as affordable..eBay $98to $500. I'm sure someone will produce a lower priced limb eventually..though not the same quality. The thought of pulling most of the draw weight early and only gaining a pound or so at the end is something I think I'd like to try.

Skookum bows, I know your not Fred Anderson and my definition of a neotrad is someone who refuses to try anything other than what they deem is acceptable,,,ie,,elevated rest, sights, stabilizer, different designs, gap shooting, string walking,,,ect. You fall into that catagory. And Runner, there is no place on the "elephant in the room's" website where they claim to have re-invented the wheel.

Well I guess it would be better if the bowyers should not try new/old designs/improvements, just stay with what they have and everyone would be happy. :-)

I agree to some extent about limb failure, but that seems to be across the board,and the reason it's so well known may be because of the advanced (improvement..New material...concepts) in communication. This wasn't around back in the day guys.

Well that and craftsman being replace by bean counters.LOL

Bowyers, for the most part, have had research and development (R&D) from day one. When you have competition, whether it's archery bows or Twinkies, you have to keep up with the ones trying to stay ahead of you. That comes with radical designs (nothing new if you do some googling) to similar designs with not so spectacular changes...like core material, etc.

The bowyers of the 50's weren't steeped in nostalgia, they were trying to run a business and stay ahead of the competition. The advertising showed..."hyper kinetic limbs"....."Fascore"...."Worlds Fastest Bow"...yada.yada.yada. They put their bows through torture tests, run them through chronographs (of the day), took them to the desert to see how far they would shoot, and always claimed their bows were the best. It's just good business.

Today's bowyers have the advantage of all of that old R&D that they don't have to go through, so they can focus pm expanding designs. Border is not a new, fly-by-night company; I had one of the Black Douglas recurves back in the lat 80's. It was of typical design for a 3 piece longbow, but was balanced perfectly (to my touch) and was flawless in finish. I don't know how fast it was but seemed to do very well for me.

Sid isn't afraid to try making a muscle car from a 289 and I think that is why he has expanded his brand. Some folks always will look for the next best thing and it's only dollars that matter at that point. I don't see a downside since R&D is what does make improvement in many things, and you really don't know the capability of glass and wood until you put it to the test. I'm betting it would have been front page news in Bow and Arrow Magazine had it showed up in 1965.....along with other new ideas of teh time. Anyway, we have lots of designs to choose from, new and old, so we don't need to fear the mad scientist. 8^)

Here ya go George ... even got the right year

Got to go along with George on this one. I believe it is the neo trad folks that hold back the development of new materials and ideas. Of course money is always an object. For some reason we think a bow is forever, that is not what many, many of us thought back in the 50's, 60's.

Thought of the muscle car analogy also George Stout. My dad hates all things new but bought a 4 cylinder ecoboost mustang that produces 310hp,,,"amazing" he says,,, go figure. Wouldn't have been possible without someone saying "what if we".

OK swap the conversation from bow design and materials ... to strings and materials.

Hands up all those who'd like to have strings made from the same materials as were around in the 30's 40's 50's and 60's ...

Innovation is (in my opinion) vital to archery ... very interesting topic Skookum

Along those lines Phil, look how many shoot carbon over all other materials now. Should we go back? That's the beauty of it, those who like, can! Most of us use a mish mosh of old and new designs and materials. Some like to tinker and experiment, while others stick with what they know works. Nothing wrong with either.

Good point about the strings,and how far back do we go before we say everything after ....is not trad?

Good point about the strings,and how far back do we go before we say everything after ....is not trad?

Improvement is and has always been a goal for most entrepreneurs. For a long time, the standard was Barbours Linen, but linen was subject to a short life and breakage. Back when a broken string could mean a broken bow, that was a big deal. Material like Fortisan and Dacron came along as War time discoveries and made the linen pretty much obsolete. The more elastic qualities of the new materials provide for more safety to bow and archer, and allowed for manufactured strings....and a relatively new industry. Fastflight materials is just an expansion on that improvement that gives you stronger, lighter material that works great in the archery industry.

As for the dumb argument of "compound like" when it comes to these things, advancement would have happened regardless of that invention. The compound just makes a convenient rented mule for some folks to blame for all of this "technological advance." Pearson, Wing, Bear and Root would have all been on top of the carbon...fastflight, and even alternate limb designs had it been a viable option back then.

Phil, I see hemp making a comeback one day ; )

"the latest one that comes to my mind being the one about the elevated rest."

How? He literally asked for it. It was the opposite of a no debate thread because he asked why people weren't doing something. And there was an implied insult, in the sense that if one didn't use an elevated rest it was because one never had. I have no problem with any of that, but please bring your big boy pants. Why is it all these people who talk about innovation and competition seem to be such delicate little darlings when any discussion breaks out.

"Improvement is and has always been a goal for most entrepreneurs... works great in the archery industry.

It is pretty common for sports to limit technology in order to preserve the sport. Tennis, golf, and cycling, all seem to be far larger sports than archery and have plenty of major, intrusive regulations. In cycling the fairly broad ban on aero innovation has probably set back the development of a thing that is also a means of transportation for 50 years, but in order to maintain the essential character of their sports they have done this. If you own something like Augusta National golf course, you have two choices: Turn the place into a mini putt, or make at least some restrictions that will keep the place competitive as a venue for the Masters. In hunting we have the option of just taking it out on the Deer's butt, so there is a natural accommodation there.

"As for the dumb argument of "compound like" when it comes to these things, advancement would have happened regardless of that invention. The compound just makes a convenient rented mule for some folks to blame for all of this "technological advance." Pearson, Wing, Bear and Root would have all been on top of the carbon...fastflight, and even alternate limb designs had it been a viable option back then."

1) The fact that innovation would have occurred anyway (which is pretty obvious, by the way), does nothing to reject the compound comparison one way or another, it is a non sequitur.

2) The compound did happen and changed archery hugely, people can argue about whether that is good or bad. For myself: I love the technology of the compound; think it adversely affected the sporting nature of hunting; I like shooting sticks and they got the short end of the stick relative to the huge rush towards compounds, but that is a minor annoyance.

3) I do think sticks are getting compound like easy to shoot. If you take something like a 15 yard treestand shot as being a baseline for hunting, I think you can now outfit and teach someone to do that in a morning with the "new" gear and techniques that are being adopted. What was once considered a challenge and difficult is now as easy, if not easier than teaching people to shoot a compound. That is an inversion but not something you can do anything about. You can't put Youtube back in a bottle. I think the biggest changes are not really gear related but techniques that even as they have been around for a long time were not accepted broadly. And you can tell that from all the nonsense that has been written and videoed about stickbow shooting. 4 tapes of Masters of the Barebow, the synopsis of which is watch the "Rod Jenkins section, on tape one".

Maybe you guys can expand on what would be too much in design. I don't see Sid's bows as being "compound easy." Hell, the people on the Leatherwall can't accurately past twenty yards for the most part. May want to elaborate then on limiting innovation. And I'm a guy who has been stuck in the 60's for a longtime with my particular innovation. I'm not seeing the reason for a falling sky.

If archers didn't desire better bows?...we'd all still be shooting strung limbs with the bark whittled off! LOL!

What innovation has made shooting a single string "compound easy?" Would really like to know! Like George, if that's the case, it's well hidden and news to most of the people struggling with accuracy past 15-20 yards. As far as the big hook thing goes, they are possible now with modern materials instead of bone and wood combos that are subject to twisting and catastrophic failure. And that's a good thing. Even the new modern material Asian bows are a huge step above the older traditional materials, and have broadened the use of those bows across the world. All of these examples grows the sport of archery, and whos against that?

Yes, the video is meaningless. Just hype for sales purposes shooting in the 4.5 grains/pound range. My longbow produces more than those same speeds when shooting a flight arrow. Also, they are not similar to Borders bows at all. They have siyahs, not long hooked recurves. Two completely different designs.

If you have already registered, please

sign in now

For new registrations

Click Here