Some of you remember that I sent my new 45# Kodiak back to the factory because the finish had cracked at the fade outs. Bear was kind enough to send me a brand new Kodiak and I just received it a few days ago. I strung it up tonight and shot it a few times, but it didn't seem to have the zip of the first one. I put it on the scale and it's dead on, but at 40 #, even though it's marked 45#. That's a little too light for me, so I'll contact Bear and see if they'll take it back and send me a REAL 45 pounder, and wait another 6-8 weeks. Rats, it's always something!

Some of you remember that I sent my new 45# Kodiak back to the factory because the finish had cracked at the fade outs. Bear was kind enough to send me a brand new Kodiak and I just received it a few days ago. I strung it up tonight and shot it a few times, but it didn't seem to have the zip of the first one. I put it on the scale and it's dead on, but at 40 #, even though it's marked 45#. That's a little too light for me, so I'll contact Bear and see if they'll take it back and send me a REAL 45 pounder, and wait another 6-8 weeks. Rats, it's always something!

That sucks. With your talent at building bows I don't know why you would want a production bow! You build some beauty's:)

It came up light? Mmm they usually hit weight or slightly over. JF

Most Bear bows I've owned are 2-3 lbs heavier than marked. I've done well with Bear customer service.

Had same problem. My bow was marked #40 but scaled 45. That's what happens when you purchase mass produced bows.

The margin of error should be 2 pounds. Bear don't weight their bows individually, they just stamp them and give you the ball park. Before they used to write actual poundage under the strike plate and "ball park" number on the handle.

Only bow from Bear I had that was not inside of a couple pounds was the Dogleg grizzly. It was 5lbs lighter then marked, but it was also built in 1963 and it's currently 2016. Good luck to you and hope they take care of it.

-Bones

Sorry this has happened to you on such a great bow. I've never had a problem with a new bear being too light. But I'm sure with mass production some slip thru. I hope they make it right this time!!

How did you measure the draw weight?

And were the scales you used "Certified" not uncommon for spring scales to be off that much. Don't blame Bear, it might be how you weighed the bow or the scale.

Bob

Doesn't just happen with mass produced bows. I have had it happen with a very well known bowyer.

I don't think they are making them like they used to. I seen too many problems on the newer Gainesville Fl, bows. Seems like there is always something. Arrows come off the shelf wrong, rubbing too far back of the strike plate. Some one with a new bb SK told me that it shot a foot to the left brand new! I am going to stick with a pre 1976 Bear bow for now on. I don't like there attitude on the phone much. I ask them simple questions about there product, and they told me to look it up online. Just not the same, though i'm not old enough to know how customer service was in Grayling.

Arrows coming off the shelf wrong? Rubbing the strike plate? Shooting a foot left brand new? Got news for you, that's not the bow, that's the guy not able to tune a simple bow and arrow.

Don't you wonder about the thousands of Gainesville Bear bows that no one complains about...ever? I was around back in the day, and their service was good...as was their product, just like both are today. Likely, for the number of bows they put out, the ratio of bad ones to good are probably the same as customs.

My guess is it is product og guys on the production line playing with their phones and listening to rap, instead of concentrating on the task at hand...producing '60s' era quality bows.

Amen George!!! And listening to rap? Makes bad bows? I guess I never thought that the type of music I listened to could make me do a poor job? Shaking my head

If Bear was to have an extreme level of quality control, e.g. 100% of their bows would be perfect bows sans any issues whatsoever, they could do it, but a Kodiak would cost $1800 instead of $700. Ok, if Bear was manufacturing parts for, say, the space shuttle, or some kind of passenger aircraft, then a failure rate of any kind is not acceptable - but of course, parts in aerospace are probably priced accordingly due to extreme quality control and manufacturing tolerances. But let's be practical here - it's a recurve bow, its wood and glass glued together in a press and for the most part shaped and tillered by hand. For $700 to $800, you are very likely to get a perfect or near-perfect bow, and if it's not right the factory or your Bear dealer will take care of you.

I've mentioned on here before - I have a 1969 super k that's marked 45 lb on the side, but marked 53 lb under the strike plate - the mark under the strike plate is accurate, the mark on the side of the bow is pure fantasy. Probably out of warranty though... damn Bear! Whatcha' gonna do?

So, I checked my spring scale using dumbells ranging from 20 to 40 lbs. I weighed each dumbbell on our Weight-Watchers scale and each one was plus 2 tenths of a pound over the designated weight. I hung them on my Pelouze scale and it was dead-on. I then weighed a 55# Kodiak Magnum I bought a year ago....dead on. Then I weighed a 55# new 1959 Kodiak..54#. I weighed a 50# Bear Grizzly.....dead on. I then weighed the bow in question, a new 45# 1959 Kodiak......39#+ or 40#-. I contacted the Bear Company but no response yet. While weighing the bows, I noticed a black spot, a little smaller than the size of a BB, on the upper limb of the Kodiak under the finish. It looks as though the glass was hit with something fairly sharp, then someone marked it with a felt pen before the finish was sprayed on. Guess I'll have to report that too, along with the deep sanding gouges in the accent glass on the front of the grip. By the way, how do you "certify" a scale?

There are companies that certify all kinds of measuring instruments, including scales. When I was involved with building locomotives and subway cars, they all had to be weighed on certified scale, including the "sounder" locomotives for Washington state. bvd

... Arrows come off the shelf wrong, rubbing too far back of the strike plate ...

That sounds like arrow waaaaay out of spine to me.

Return it and buy some other brand

My Tucson is burning more gas than she uster. Maybe Hyundai will replace it.

I've bought 3 bows from a custom Bowyer that shall be nameless to protect the guilty as hell ! His bows are beautiful and all shot great for me. He would of course try to get the requested poundage, but no matter what it was, on the bow was written exactly what you asked for! I never weighed one because it didn't matter and I loved all 3 bows. I had a #40@27, #50@27, and a #57@27. Always thought the 50# was a dog compared to the others, but It killed 7 deer and a Bear. Dead don't come in degrees.

Nemah, I keep my scales calibrated with dumb bell weights too. I check them on a bathroom scale, my digital hanging scale. They come within a couple tenths of a pound of what the weights say. My Hansen spring scale is the only one that needs fine tuning at different times of the year. JF

I checked mine at 25# and 55# a low and a high. JF

It's all your fault, Nemah.

Yup, it does seem like it's always something. I'd find that frustrating myself - whether it's a bow, a vehicle issue, trying to correct anything with a gov't. agency, whatever - one mistake, yeah, that'll happen sometimes. The same issue twice, or with the same source twice, does test one's patience.

It's obvious you know what you're talking about. Hopefully, when they hear this is a return of a return, some responsible Bear employee will make it right-for real-and you shouldn't have to wait 6-8 weeks the second time around. that's just decent customer service. I'm not one to get angry with who I talk to, but I do help them understand the ball's been dropped.

Sorry and surprised a couple folks immediately figured the problem was your own skill with the bow.

It's best to read the threads completely, and understand the context of each one firekeeper. My suggestion about the shooter not the bow, was not referencing the original poster at all. Read all the posts, and maybe you can figure that out.

Bear Archery is worshipped on this website. You should have known better than to say anything critical of them!

Please, let us know the outcome of your problem?

lmao 69kodaik. If you have the right arrows any bow will shoot straight. ur buddy pulled a joke on you on the far left one. Also hitting the side padeand shelf different places is arrow spine. The arrow doesn't touch the shelf or side plate once oyu release. As for weight Bear and most factories use amo standards. They weight each bow contrary to what you may have heard but they mark them per amo standard. Which is:

Bows weighing 19 - 20 -21 lb. - will be marked 20 lbs.

Bows weighing 22 - 23 lbs. - will be marked 20X lbs.

Bows weighing 24 - 25- 26 lbs. - will be marked 25 lbs.

Bows weighing 27 - 28 lbs. - will be marked 25X lbs.

Bows weighing 29 - 30 - 31 lbs. - will be marked 30 lbs.

All other conventional bow weights not shown would follow this same formula.

At one time I owned two, 1976 Blue striped Super Kodiaks. One was 45#, the other was 60#. The 45 was exactly 45#, the 60 was 62#. I felt the quality was very good, everything smooth and symetrical, etc. I was impressed. I had 3 custom made for me Saluki hybrid bows The quality was exceptional. They were better than the Bear's, but it wasn't like a night and day difference.

No ones sayin he's wrong but we get lots of bows on here that are right but perceived wrong so some of us make sure before we give advice. Btw I got lucky with my phenolic SK. Its perfect in every way. No scratches ,bad glue lines, or any of the other problems some have with them.

some years back I got a Florida SK. I tried out three that were all marked 60 pounds. they looked very much the same. One shot better than the other two even though they were all set up identically. I ordered some alaskan tapered carbons for it, the bow did like them, but 2018s with lighter points and cut to match my 27" draw worked very nice. I made some really excellent hunting shots on deer at what would be considered fairly long for many shooters with it, i shot a couple of pheasants out of the air with it, and broke my record for shooting quarters out of the air that were lobbed across my larger target stack from ten yards, not that little vertical flip, 6 out of 8. For some reason, I was annoyed by the handling when hunting and only used it for one year. Still, they are about the best all around hunting recurve ever produced, it is troubling that they are having consistency issues with them. I was tempted to get a left hander, just to have one and us for very cold conditions. My Groves will just have to remain as my one and only recurve.

On behalf of Bear, I apologize!

Seriously though - miss-marked poundage, finish cracking - not much has changed since the days of Grayling apparently. Hey, I've got three Wes Wallace Mentors, two are spot-on with respect to poundage, one is 2# heavier than marked - heh, what you going to do? I think being within plus-minus 2# is a reasonable expectation, unless you paid extra to be spot-on. The OP says his bow is 5# light - that's too much, Bear should exchange the bow.

I don't see why Bear and other bowyers don't just mark what the actual poundage is... would make life simpler for both manufacture and consumer.

I for one have always looked down my nose at Gainsville products - I never cared for post-Grayling products. However, two years ago I recieved a 'spot bonus' at work in the form of a gift card to Big Jim's, so I rolled the dice and bought a 59 re-issue, left-hand, 45 lb. I had very low expectations - but I must say, the bow far exceeded my expectations. Perfect fit and finish, draw weight was spot-on, tips shaped and finished quite nicely, perfect glue lines and fadeouts, it really is a nice bow. I'll concede that I'm probably lucky that I got a good one... but going into it I knew it was a crap shoot (well, maybe I didn't 'know', but I was thinking it).

George-I did as you suggested and re-read all the threads before yours. I see what you are referring to now, and I apologize for a wrong assumption. I didn't think that was typical of you, hence my surprise. Glad to admit my oversight.

firekeeper, no problem. I make as many blurbs and bleeps as the next guy, but I do have some folks who keep track of it to keep me level. 8^). It's all good.

Agreed.

I'm not persuaded by the argument that Bear should get a pass in cases like this because they build "thousands" of bows. It doesn't matter if Bear builds 5 bows, 5,000 bows or 5,000,000 bows. If Bear want to establish a reputation for quality, it's up to them to establish a level of quality control commensurate with the level of production. Period. No quality control system will prevent some defects such as a riser break or limb delamination, but mismarking any bow, let alone a $700 bow, by 5# and taking 6-8 weeks to get the customer a replacement is unacceptable. Bear should not only replace the mismarked bow as quickly as possible, but also pay Nehmah for the loss of use of his property. That just might force Bear to do a better job with quality control.

How much should they pay Nemah for the loss of use of his property?

4nolz@work: Since Bear Archery has,in effect, shifted the job of quality control to Nemah for the time he has owned these two bows, I'd vote for giving him the wages of a member of their quality control department for that time, plus monetary compensation in lieu of whatever benefits Bear offers to employees. Fair enough?

Quality control is only as good as a company owner or plant manager allows it to be. I don't know what their Quality plan calls for, but it might be a one in five or one in ten inspection. It probably isn't 100% inspection. bvd

No reply from Bear yet. (4 working days) Sent another email tonight explains additional problems.

Explaining, not explains. Sorry.....

I had 4 current production Bear bows: Grizzly., Super Grizzly, Super Kodiak and Kodiak takedown. Super Grizzly was 5 pounds heavier than marker, Takedown was squeaking and i had to put bow wax on the limbs but the noise came back later. Grizzly doesn't take fast flight. Only super Kodiak was good. I sold all of them and bought myself Black Widow instead. No more Bear bows for me. My friend had 59 Kodiak, his poundage also was much heavier than marked. Some say "what did you expect for $700 bow?" But 700 hundred bucks is still a lot of money.

Mediocre. The new bows are hit or miss, based on the reports that regularly aired on this forum. Knowing todays workers, this doesn't surprise me a bit.

If even one out of ten sucks, that says something about todays Bear. No thanks. That is why I bought 60s vintage Bear bows. Maybe if production was moved offshore there would be no rap and phones pulled every few minutes, and there would be more attention to handwork and details. What a shame that is.

I'm not sure I'd say mediocre based on reports here. Given the number of bows Bear produces in a month, the reports here probably aren't even close to 1% of the volume, likely far less.

I've owned several new bows and Bear limbs. I had trouble with one set of limbs getting the horizontal stress lines in the finish and Bear promptly replaced them. I've owned some bows from custom bowyers that had problems and, given the difference in numbers produced, I'd say that their problem rate was much higher than Bear's

My expectations are only that if there is a problem it is resolved. I fully expect that there will be bows that have issues given that they are made from wood and hand finished.

Nemah, I had an issue with a bow from Bear and after dealing a bit with customer service, I contacted Neil Byce who runs Bear's traditional production directly. His dad was Fred Bear's head guy for many years. He was excellent to work with me. His email is [email protected]. If you have not contacted Neil I would suggest that you do so.

Not enough coffee this morning--meant to send that as a PM. :o(

some of this is silly-if you ever visited the trad shop at Bear you'd see there is no "line" or rap music or cell phones.JHC.

Return the bow buy something else then you're qualified to bash Bear every chance you get.;)

Probably the same type of shop as Remlin then?

Aside from what is said here in defense of todays Bear, the fact remains that handwork nowadays coming from US based manufacturers is frequently slipshod and paltry, in comparison to what has produced in the fifties and sixties. No amount of gum flapping here is gonna disprove that.

Unbelievably sloppy handwork is commonplace. In fact new designs try to minimize handwork, because it takes skilled workmen, and a dedication to excellence, and patience, ALL of which are missing in the U.S, today. Sorry, nobody pulls the wool over that. I've been a craftsman since 1973, no BSing me on what it takes to do quality. I know of what I speak. I know todays workers VERY well.

Again, my 1969 super kodiak is marked 45 lb but is really 53 lb, and Bear knew it because it's marked 53 lb under the strike plate - plus, crazing in the finish, and lots of stress lines in the riser - this was Grayling-era. I've talked to the person who currently owns an archery shop in Provo, who is currently a Bear dealer and was a Bear dealer all the way back into the late 60s (how many people today can say that?!?) - he told me finish issues were ALWAYS a problem with bear. Personally, I have owned vintage Bear that has had some issues (miss-marked poundage, stress lines galore, poor tillering resulting in lots of shock and hand vibration, etc. and not just my 1969 SK), we all know about these issues. Were problems less common during the Grayling era? Maybe... but Bear wasn't putting out perfection then either, not by a long-shot. I've had vintage Howatt that has had some issues too - my last one, made in the mid 70s, had huge ugly tips and was tillered poorly (although I'll concede it did shoot well, just kind of ugly to look at when strung up).

I guess what I'm saying is, people need to understand and accept what Bear is and always has been - you buy a bow online sight unseen, you takes your chances with Bear. I for one would not buy a $900 super kodiak, as much as I love that 1968/69 super k, for $900 I would expect near perfection, and mediocre just doesn't cut it for me at that price. But, if I just had to have that bow (and I can see why someone would, it's a very cool bow!), I'd try my darndest to handle the bow before laying down the money. And I would go into it understanding, just as I did with my 59 re-issue, that it's a crap shoot, and you hope you get a good one and don't have to go through weeks of hassle to get Bear to make it right. I lucked out and got a perfect 59 re-issue - my original 1969 super k, not so much (but even with it's issues, my 1969 is still a cool bow).

Or, for $100 less, just get another Mentor!

Back in the day, bought a Bear marked 40X. Bear dealer told me it was 45lbs, and sold me arrows to match. Convinced me that 45 was more than enough.

He was right. I had come in wanting a 50 pounder, and this first "real" bow was all I could handle.

Years later I replace the strike plate and see 45.

Decades later I chat was the counter guy at Bass Pro. His knowledge of recurves is nil, but he does tell me that the ones he sells often pop up on Craigslist cheaply

This does not mean that the new bows are bad, but I was glad I was introduced to Bear Archery by a dealer in the glory days of Fred.

David Mitchell, thank you. I sent off an e-mail earlier this evening. Still no reply from customer service on my last two inquiries. And thank you, gentlemen, for your responses. Richard

Number one it's 800, not 9 and number two mine is perfection and the few guys I know that have em found nothing to complain about. Every factory slips a bad one out on occasion, even Mercedes.

Hello folks! I just received a response (email) from Bear customer service to my inquiry about the under-weight bow, 12 days after I sent the first inquiry. How's that for customer service? The matter has already been settled, thanks to David Mitchells' advice. Richard

I'm glad to hear it's been settled. Manlaw here say's you should show us a pic of your bow when you get it.

I'm glad to hear it's been settled. Manlaw here say's you should show us a pic of your bow when you get it.

Yep , spend ur hard earned money on something u can trust and rely on , a Toelke or Holm-Made or many other customs ...

Yep , spend ur hard earned money on something u can trust and rely on , a Toelke or Holm-Made or many other customs ...

Twelve days before Bear's "customer service" department could bother to respond to an email! Inexcusable. Bear has had Nemah's money since the original purchase. Bear should definitely compensate Nemah in full for the time that he has been without the bow that he bought and paid for in good faith.

Bear used to mark the riser under the strike plate with the weight. If it was over there were X'sfor each pound over or under. Pearson did the same. I know everyone thinks the Grayling bows were/are top notch BUTi remember when Victor bought out Fred. The idea was make as many as possible so there were issues, lots of them. I have seen a lot of custom bows over the years. Most are shining examples of the bowyers craft. It is the finish on some that leave me wondering. But back to the original post. Two strikes and your out. At some point I would want a refund.

Dan Jones email Neil on Thanksgiving and give him an earful lol.

Dan the only problems I've ever had were from custom bowyers. One guy who is well thought of sold me a bow that was untunable. And he even admitted it had a bad limb. Told me he fixed it when truthfully all he did was send me back the same limbs. I ate that one but cost him a lot of money in the meantime. Another well respected bowyer sold me a new longbow only to have the tip break off a week after the warranty ran out. I called him only to hear, "its no longer under warranty". We've had all kinds of guys in here that couldn't get their custom or couldn't get the bowyer to answer their calls. So you see its not just bow factories who are too busy building thousands of bows but its also custom guys who are building 10's of bows that get bad ones.

Toelke, Holm-Made , Northern Mist, Fedora, Thunderstick, Great Northern, Hollenbeck , Mccollugh , and many , many more " customs" with never a problem or issue ,,, just sayin ........ there is a difference .....

Toelke, Holm-Made , Northern Mist, Fedora, Thunderstick, Great Northern, Hollenbeck , Mccollugh , and many , many more " customs" with never a problem or issue ,,, just sayin ........ there is a difference .....

You're kidding right? I know of more than one of those that had problems. Plus, given the vast difference in numbers of bows produced by those bowyers and Bear the percent of errors may well be in Bear's favor.

It's quite possible Bear makes more bows in a month than all those bowyers do in a year combined.

I got a 59er from Big Jim, beautiful but the worse string I have got on a bow new or used. I built a new string and it shoot nice but I have hardly shot it in two years just gave me a bad taste getting less than perfect in a brand new bow. I complained but nobody cared. It is pretty much normal for me to build a string when I get a bow, but they should come with a decent string, I hope they do you right on your bow. Just because they build a lot of bows does not mean they should not do it right and if they mess up they should take care of it before they build another. Customer service comes first

I thought Big Jim included a new string with every Bear he sells maybe yours was before he started doing that.

Bear strings are overbuilt - probably to CYA. I thought Big Jim was also including one of his strings with new Bear bows he sold. I bought my Kodiak from him before he started doing that.

"Toelke, Holm-Made , Northern Mist, Fedora, Thunderstick, Great Northern, Hollenbeck , Mccollugh , and many , many more " customs" with never a problem or issue ,,, just sayin ........ there is a difference .....'

I had two of those over the years, that went back to the bowyer for workmanship problems. And, at least one other that is not on this list. I returned a used bow to a sponsor because of a serious defect and had a couple bad dealings over the years with custom bowyers. Recently I made a mistake at my job, one that really bothers me. It happens, and we try to improve and not let it happen again.

"just sayin ........", me too.

I truly doubt if the PERCENTAGE of Bear bow failures is any higher than any of those customs. Over the past twenty years I've owned and seen mediocre workmanship on two of those customs named and I had another bow from a highly regarded builder come apart a full draw. I have also sent a TD riser back to Bear due to a tiny split in the shelf area which they promptly replace with a new riser.

Ever since Mr. Fred died it is MHO that the Bear bows have gone way down in craftsmanship and are seriously lacking in customer relations.

GLF: I don't think that it makes a difference whether a bow is mass produced by a big corporation or by a small custom bowyer - good quality control and customer service is good quality control and customer service and bad is bad. One bow with a flaking finish followed by another that is 5# heavier than marked indicates quality control issues. Twelve days to answer an email from a customer is inexcusable.

Guess Big Jim is doing the right thing putting a good string with the bows he sells now. the ones that BEAR sent were auful.Jim has always tried to do the service right. I have bought from him before and since, the 59er was the only problem I ever had.

Nemah, very happy that you were able to resolve your problem with Bear Archery. Have a Happy Thanksgiving!

There's absolutely nothing wrong with Gainesville bows..in fact, I can give one quick reason in regards to why they are better.

1. The limbs have been reworked for better performance over everything made in Grayling. Don't believe me? Look at the limb profile and limb tips on the new bear limbs. Gone are the huge chiclet style string nocks on the limbs.

So go ahead and tell me how the new Bear is worse than the old?

There are so many wrong assumptions in the comments section of this thread that it would take days to address all of them. It's the same Bear, from the customer service to the improved products. They aren't still selling you products designed in the 60's but that's none of my business.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Fred Bear sold the company to Victor Comptometer in 1968, but remained the president of Bear Archery. Bear Archery was not one of the first compound bow manufacturers, but eventually found success with early models like the Whitetail Hunter. Bear Archery moved manufacturing from Michigan to Gainesville, Florida in 1978. Over the next three decades Bear Archery changed hands in a series of mergers, acquisitions, and spin-offs from Victor Comptometer to Walter Kidde & Co, Hanson PLC, U.S. Industries, Fenway Partners and the North American Archery Group. In 2003 Escalade Sports acquired the North American Archery Group and currently does business as Bear Archery Inc. Escalade has 41 companies under it's corporate nameplate. I'm very sure that the traditional bow segment is the least profitable of all their brands. Nice to be brand loyal, but also good to realize that for years what companies were interested in when they bought Bear Archery was the Daisy Arms brand, not the Archery portion. Bear's Compound and Crossbow divisions are what pay the bills and make the money, not the Recurves and Longbows. Bear Archery today is not your Father's Bear Archery, sad but true.

Bear is in to producing bow's,not strings.With that being said;it looks like that they could contract with a quality string maker that can produce the volume of what they sell.60x strings would be a good start!

It's not the same due to progress in the times...the generations that used bows to hunt in that period were in fact, restricted to their choices in bows. Thats why it's different. But the bows are still avaialble through all that..so it must not be bad for business. I have all the products made by Bear, Trad bows, compounds, and even a crossbow. Choices not as widely available in the Grayling era.

People can still contact the same people, such as Neil Byce, and that name has been aroound Bear Archery for 2 Generations. Bottom line is if the Trad stuff ain't selling, it wouldn't be available anymore.American people still wouldn't be employed either...but they still are.

Corporate takeovers target businesses they can buy cheap, thats all there is to that. I for one are happy that Bear is owned be Escalade sports, deeper pockets keep products available, but if you think they are doing out of generosity you'd be mistaken. There are profits in the Trad sector. Yet the bows are made the same way they've always been, with improvements. So its a win as far as I'm concerned.

Quote from the 2017 product catalog, "The reflexed and power packed riser is crafted from black and rosewood Hard-Rock Maple featuring a radius shelf for perfect arrow flight. The natural Hard-Rock Maple limbs are backed and faced with high strength black fiberglass. The tips are handcrafted and layered with black and white fiberglass."

Could you tell me what "Black and Rosewood Hard-Rock Maple" is?

A typographical error? Obviously it comes from the description of the 59 Kodiak or the Super Kodiak Phenolic, since those are the only two that employ Brazilian Rosewood.

No, it came from a longbow advertisement in the 2017 lineup.

Typical

I would take " black and rosewood hard rock maple" is an attempt to describe the color of the dyes used in the manufacture of the 'futurewood' Bear is using (maple impregnated with colored epoxy). As I'm sure many of you know, Bear moved to this material after the Rutland plant burned down and actionwood was no longer available.

The description should have been a little clearer when stated, but it is hardly a 'sleazy' attempt at marketing. Reading many of the post on here I didn't think people would be so hung up on prose, punctuation, and spelling. LOL!

Everyones comparing the new bear archery to the old grayling bows, and not favorably. The older guys can tell you that most bear archery bows that sold, if not all, got the horizontal cracks in the finish. They stayed that way. If you buy an old bear that's never had em then it hasn't been shot much or it belonged to someone with a very short draw length. The new bears have a lot better workmanship than the old ones if you count finish.

The grayling bear archery continued to use the laquer finish so kept getting the cracks. At least the new bear swiched finish and took care of the problem. In grayling they kept using that finish because it shined great and sold bows.

"Could you tell me what "Black and Rosewood Hard-Rock Maple" is?"

Yes, I can tell you. It is Maple that is dyed black or rosewood in color.

From the Damon/Howatt website, Stealth - "The dark silver reinforced riser..."

I would assume the riser of the Stealth is a laminated riser dyed silver or grey in color, and not actually silver.

I do not see either of these descriptions as being sleazy or intentionally misleading.

I like the older Grayling bows, but mainly for nostalgic reasons and certainly not for superior workmanship.

I have been skeptical of the Gainesville products in the past, but have now changed my tune after acquiring a few bows and limbs. The workmanship and performance that I've experienced have made me a loyal Bear customer.

Any company can have an odd duck slip through from time to time, but at least Bear makes attempts to correct it in most cases.

...and I'm happy that Nemah will be happy.

I got dizzy just reading this thread .

I am glad that they have the 59er, after the string issue that I fixed myself it is a fine shooting bow . I have had 2 of the new SKs and was not happy with either, one was super slow and the nocks were not cut deep enough in the tips to hold the string on with the other. I did the fix on that one myself. I think they are just pumping them out with no quality control.

Many comments here about the quality of the string that comes with the new 59 Kodiak. Which replacement string should I be looking for if I want to replace it?

The neotrad generation is expert at everything. That includes every bow made from the beginning of time until next week. They are obviously so good at everything, that they could build flawless bows, both functionally and aesthetically, better than any bow that has been made since the beginning of time...including any built from now on. They will have none of this stuff about a bad bow now and then, even if the company turns out thousands per week. And they can do all this while taking selfies from their tree stands and never have to look up from their devices. They are awesome!!!

Jeff is exctly right. Go read it, its meant to be black colored hardrock maple and rosewood colored hardrock maple. No deception there.

You know I have watched this thread with great interest. I think this old archer will put in his opinion. I love the Graying bows I had a 1970 K-mag and newer K-mag from Gainsville that was two tone gray and brown plywood. The workmanship on both was excellent both were 45# and my draw length is 28.5. Also both shot 1916 arrows that were 29. Both shot with authority and I was just as accurate with either and then the 1970 tip broke off dam car trunk hatches! You can buy with confidence the newer Gainsville bows with confidence. Do they have problems yes but its the service after the sale that keeps customers. I have owned 100's of customs and factory production bows. In a most of the cases you aren't loosing anything custom vs production except you get to choose your wood and get your mane on the bow!

Just look at this ugly ole thing,lol. I know one thing tho. If I shoot a deer with it it'll take longer to find my arrow than the deer. She's serious business when it comes to shooting.

Btw the jagged looking lines is just the reflection the suns putting on it. Her glue lines are great.

Lol, just mention Bear Archery and folks line up to bash them.

Because of the high volume of bows they were producing, I'm guessing there were lots of folks bashing them "back in the day" as well.

Love my Bears! All made in Florida too.

Did I miss it, or is there nothing new and exciting in their 2017 line of bows? Not bashing, I was just hoping the rumors were true and we were in for another "do over" or something new with riser woods or glass.

Laughing my a$$ off George. Spot on !

It appears they're offering different wood options on the 59, as well as a brown glass Montana.

I'm hoping for a new Takedown color. I'd love to see a blue stripe myself.

Mr. Stout speaks as if he has met 90% of my employees.

Every time I get the sensation that I am just becoming a grumpy old "darn kids these days" kinda guy I hear that maybe I'm not alone in that sentiment.

Isn't anything in the world 100% perfection but unless Papa Bear himself inspected every bow that came off the line you could expect to have an issue occassionally. Always seems to be a dramatic event at work for me- only just if I'm not there.

And Dad speaks wisdom of customer support.

Hope you get the bow you really want at SOME point Nemah!

Psych!

Mike that sure is pretty. The only reason I don't buy Bears is because I want to help out small shop bowyers and establish relations with them. Many of the new Bears look great and bring back fond memories. Customer service is like bows also, some times you get a great one, some times not so much. How you look at the experience differs for many of us also.

"Black Bows Matter"

Mr.George D. Stoudt:

Would you be so willing to excuse Bear Archery if you paid $700 for one of their bows, only to find that it had a defective finish, waited weeks for a replacement, only to discover that the draw weight was 5-6# over, and then "only" had to wait 12 days for Bear to respond to an email?

Maybe you would. However, to this "neotrad" who goes back to the 1960's with archery, $700 is a lot of money to spend for such poor quality control and inexcusably bad customer service.

I think Dan might not be a potential customer.;) :)

4Nolz@work:

Unfortunately, I was a Bear customer several years ago - for a '59 Kodiak "reintroduction" model. I regret to say that I succumbed to the hype. The bow proved to be quite disappointing - the overall quality approximated that of a $139 Samick Sage.

A lot of assumptions being made here based on hearing only one side of the story. You can put all the custom bowyers together and they can't come close to producing the number of traditional bows that Bear is putting out. In a market that is 90% compounds, and losing ground fast to x-guns, you might want to get over yourself and appreciate the history Bear Archery is striving to preserve.

Wow, Dan. There is absolutely no comparison between my 59er reintro and a Samick--none. I have never had a "custom" bow made by any of the fine bowyers whose works I own that had any finer workmanship in it than that bow. Sorry for your experience, but I assure you that Neil Byce does everything in his power to satisfy customers.

Dan, yes I would. I would because I've been a Bear dealer (1970's) and have shot literally hundreds of their bows. I also take things into consideration like creating new bowyers to keep up with a crazy demand that wasn't expected. A lot of that demand is triggered on the many forums we have on the internet nowadays. Would I be happy? Maybe not, but I would be understanding because I've seen just about all of the anomalies that trying to create a new bow can entail.

I'm not here to excuse Bear, I'm hear to tell you I understand something that has always been a minor issue with any manufacturing. I'm sure the customer service area of Bear would love to have perfect bow making. Life isn't that way. I would hate to be a manufacturer in this day of immediate scrutiny from internet pundits. We all hear issues with high dollar custom bows too. C'est la vie.

I have this 80's'takedown that is nicely crafted, i mean perfect. I also bought a 30# used newer super kodiak for my son and it is nicely crafted. I found sanding marks in the throat of the grip at the top under the shelf. Not really a big deal at all. In Comparison i bought a nice custom recurve once, my first actually and it had crooked nocks cut and runs in the finish. It was from a well known bowyer. They promptly fixed the issue and indicated they had hired some help and were still training them.

I think Dan has a legit opinion.Bear got swamped with the resurgence of the trad line and it seems some bows are getting through with increased production vs quality control.I wouldn't buy one without looking at it in person or from a dealer like Big Jim who surely inspects them.Dan did you buy yours from a Bear dealer or was it a different source? They say the average dissatisfied customer tells 7 people that is multiplied exponentially online.

They should check the work of trainees before shipping them out. Hard to imagine they didn't.

What about the custom bowyers who do their own quality control. Like I said before the only bows I've had a problem with were customs. 2 of which never got repaired or replaced. I've also had friends who had to have customs repaired under warranty who didn't get their bows back for 3 or 4 months. from 1978 up to this bear I've hunted mostly with customs, but I doubt I'll ever buy another new custom. As for finish anyone whos been in archery before compounds would have known about bears laquer finish problem. Like I said the new bear at least took care of it.

""They should check the work of trainees before shipping them out. Hard to imagine they didn't.""

We seem to have issues with just about every entity that makes or sells anything nowadays. Quality control I guess, can only go so far, but it's called quality control for a reason. Yet are they trained to know what to look for and do they have the time to check every item. Automobile companies sure don't....appliance companies don't....electronics don't, we've all had some bad stuff sent to us.

I've dealt with all kinds of folks when I was in retail management, from those who wanted to burn down the whole store, to those who just shrugged their shoulders and tried to understand. Somewhere in the middle are the souls who never praise nor complain..they just put up with it. You shouldn't keep substandard merchandise, but I think that's something that should be dealt with by the principles....not aired in public just to show one's displeasure. Now I do understand the frustration of someone who goes through a couple doses of misfortune, and that itself shouldn't happen. If that happened to me, I would just ask them for a refund and go buy something else. That would send the message as much as public humiliation. But that's just my opinion.

I should add that I did just buy a custom longbow from Gary Sentman that shoots like a dream, a fast dream,lol. The bow looks and shoots great. Actually it's the first longbow I've owned that shoots right up there with any recurve I've seen.

George, I don't have an issue with just about everything, it's just that if I am a custom bow maker and my reputation is riding on each bow that leaves my shop, you better believe I am going to check the work of a "trainee" before it goes to a customer. They won't know it was put together and finished by a trainee--the bowyer is the one to get the tarnished reputation.

Do any of you actually know what Bear's quality control plan is. or are you just pissing in the wind to hear your self complain?

Most big companies will do a 100%, first article inspection. If no major problems are found, they will do a percentage inspection on the rest of the production run. If problems are found right off, production is usually halted until they are corrected.

Quality control is considered overhead, same as office help. In some cases, Quality Control is over ridden by the Production or Plant manager. bvd

Quality or no, that all black phenolic take-down rocks! I could see selling all of my bows and buying a black riser with three sets of limbs, and that would be the only bow I own for the rest of my life. BEAUTIFUL!

Ok Bear...Mr. goldentrout_one has spoken for us. When will that riser be available?

When dad had the archery shop back in the 60's he preached to my brother and myself, " if you don't have good service we might as well close the doors".

I/we have only bought one new bow and that was a gift from my wife made by Northern Mist. It is flawless. Now I own a couple of new Bear bows, old stock but they were left overs from the store. No issues with any of the new bows that I own.

Yeah I could see that black glossy takedown being backordered forever. Maybe add white V stripes to it. It's a beauty.

I hear nothing but good things about Bear. I have two of their Gainsville models from 2003, but, to me, the fit, finish and shootability of the Grayling ones were better. Kodiak Magnum and Super Mag (48")

I heard Big Jim was getting one made of Myrtle wood?

Latest update! I emailed Neil Byce, head of Bear's traditional division, explaining my situation: the original 45# bow was returned due to finish cracking in the fade out area. Over 6 weeks later, the replacement bow arrived. It was marked 45#, but pulled a shade less than 40#. It had an impact ding in the glass that had been marked with a felt pen, then sprayed over with the finish. There were sanding grooves in the glass grip overlays. I also complained that the leather grip was poorly done: the edges, not being tapered, were uncomfortable and positioned under the shooters finger tips. The string provided did not fit into the string grooves. If I drew the bow and let it down slowly, a click was heard when the string jumped into position. The response from Neil was immediate and very positive. The next day, I received an apologetic e-mail from the head of quality control. Another apologetic e-mail from the head of customer service followed, requesting my shipping address and the serial number of the defective bow. The gentleman also said that Neil would personally pick out a new replacement Kodiak for me and ship it out as soon as possible. So that is where the matter stands at the present time. Richard

Aggravating on a time level,,,,but,,,IMHO,,,,great follow thru with the man in charge selecting your next bow!

Great responce

I am certain that Neil will take care of you!!!! Rodney

A little saying we keeping trying to get across in the quality profession might apply here as well - "100% inspection is only 80% effective" - and it has beenroven time and again. Quality needs to be built into the product by robust processes and process controls - it cannot be inspected in.

Also keep in mind that we are talking about hand made products here - crafted individually especially at the cosmetics attribute level - variability is inevitable.

That said - I've never bought a bow that was not in my hands before money was exchanged or I had a rock solid commitment from the seller that the deal was contingent on review.

Maybe I was too fussy or out of touch as a kid, but back in those days, Bear bows were considered pretty "average" in quality. Not great and not bad, just average. Now days it seems like we expect them to be awesome. Maybe this is due to internet hype from those that really love them (like Frisky has done to Drakes), but that's not how I remember them. - John

Having an long career in Aerospace/Defense building aircraft, I understand quality control very well. Nemah problems are a sign of shoddy QA on behalf of Bear. If their QA was robust enough, it would had caught these problems, done a root cause analysis, and implement fixes to preclude reoccurrence.

Just because their customer service/ QA is nice and apologetic is not an excuse for them to avoid implementing sound root cause and corrective actions; ultimately, resulting in delivery of defective free product - they will reduce their costs in the long run (studies have proven regardless of the manufactured product).

If Bear was a supplier to me....well, I would go elsewhere for my parts and systems.

Well it took long enough, but Nemah's post this morning is a good example of how it should go when something like this occurs. Sounds like the head guys are trying to do the right thing. I'll be looking to hear how that replacement looks, Nemah!

The squeaky wheel gets the grease . . then... . .

The check is in the mail

. . then . . .

The dog ate my homework

Eric, good point. However, Bear bows are not, nor should they be compared to Aerospace/Defense "Mil Spec" standards. That being said, I agree, from internet threads, and my personal experience of talking with a Bear dealer in a sporting goods store in up nort Michigan, Bear does need to improve on their quality control.

Peter, not about Mil Spec, it is all about good manufacturing practices including quality - from a craftsman in a one man shop to large a company building F22s good quality is not size or specification centric.

Eric, I think really good QC and QA necessarily increases the cost of a product - for a recurve bow, I suspect there's a point of diminishing returns, QA/QC that eliminates problem bows would likely increase the cost of the bows to where they are no longer competitively priced (or the share holders will get a smaller dividend!). I think aerospace is a whole different animal - maybe, a 5% return rate on super kodiaks is acceptable to the archery industry, but 5% failure rate on jet engine parts, NO WAY!

I'm not trying to be a Bear apologist - but Bear has NEVER had a reputation for putting out perfect, flawless bows, although many of their bows turn out that way. I think Bear Archery is like Chevrolet - you might get a good Chevy truck, or you might get a lemon, or something in-between - you just never know. Or, you can just get a Toyota and be done with it (e.g. black widow).

When Bear was just building conventional bows, they had CRAFTSMEN doing the work. Many of which were archers themselves.

When Bear had a record year of bow building in 1976, they had less people building bows. 40% of those bows were compounds. They hired MECHANICS to put them together. To meet the demand for new conventional bows, they again need CRAFTSMEN. They just don't walk in off from the street. You need some one to train them properly. Keeping them there after they are trained should be a priority. bvd

"Keeping them there after they are trained should be a priority." I agree that many companies need to invest more in employee "retention" and less in recruitment.

You're mistaken, I'm not making the argument to implement Mil Spec tolerances or requirements, but for the product at hand, regardless of what it is, it should be made the right way. When they are not resulting in unhappy customers and product returns for warranty repair or replacement, costs increase and losing future business is a good possibility - I'll pass on buying Bear bows at this point, but that is me.

Latest update! The saga continues! I received another e-mail stating that instead of pulling one off the rack, they are going to build me a new 45# Kodiak from scratch! Stay tuned, folks! This just keeps getting better and better!

Nemah, as that their QA person actually approves final product and get them to confirm. Heck, if they did it right the first time, Bear would avoided all these costs associated with your order - and not driven the customer batty.

Still don't Know how Bear does their Quality control. Over the past twenty years some companies have went to the self inspection method to cut Quality costs. They have a Quality manager that trains the production workers how to inspect each others work. This eliminates the need to have a separate group of inspectors that produce nothing.

According to the Bear Owners Manual, the way Bear measures their weights are at 29 3/4. Please see "How to measure draw weight" in the link below.

Were you measuring the weight at 28"? If so, that may explain why you got 40# and the bow is marked 45#.

For example, lets say your bow draw is 40# @ 28". Bear would measure the measure the same bow at 29.75", and the weight should be around 44.375 (according to their estimate of 2.5 additional lbs per inch of additional draw), which would be marked 45#

http://www.lancasterarchery.com/media/manufacturer_resources/b ear_manual.pdf

I spoke to a Bear guy awhile back and he told me of a guy that repeatedly buys bows finds flaws and complains loud and long until they just give him what he wants-at least 3x with 3 models some likely from the bargain bin.They all know his name by now.So Customer Service can be abused too.

I have no doubt the Leatherwall exposure led to this resolution to this case.

(Not referring to Nemah as the customer described above)

Sorry, link came over wrong last post.

http://www.lancasterarchery.com/media/manufacturer_resources/bea r_manual.pdf

For some reason, the message board is breaking up my link. It put an extra space in the word "Bear" in the link - remove that space and it will link you to the manual which states the above.

"According to the Bear Owners Manual, the way Bear measures their weights are at 29 3/4."

sjt85,

I think you're misreading the draw length, at least I hope you are. The AMO standard for draw length is 26 1/4" to the deepest part of the grip, then you add 1 3/4" for a 28" draw length. I'm sure Bear does NOT weight their bows 28" bows at 29 3/4"

Agreed with Mr. Casto - if Bear is measuring the draw weight as they indicate in their manual, they are doing it wrong and not to AMO specs, but I would guess the owner's manual has a typo, I would be astonished if Bear measured draw weight any other way than AMO standard (26.25" from deepest part of grip). Although, on my 1959 re-issue it doesn't explicitly say "AMO" next to the weight and draw length spec drawn on the riser. My particular specimen is marked 45 lb, and I think it's easily within plus-minus 1 lb if not right at 45 lb.

Interesting that the manual indicates the bow is marked to the nearest 5-lb increment - so the actual bow weight could be minus 2 lb or plus 3 lb!!!! So, when you order a 45 lb bow, you could get a 43 lb bow, or a 48 lb bow, quite a range. A 48 lb bow could be marked 45 lb, or marked 50 lb, I guess depending on how the Bear employee felt that day. Or, apparently, it could be 40 lb and they could just mark it 45 lb (or it could be 53 lb and they could still mark it 45 lb).

Here's a picture of the manual sjt85 referred to. As I read it, it says Bear measures a 28" draw length to be from the string to 1 and 3/4" past the deepest part of the grip.

Or.... the AMO Standard.

Thanks Jim, I think the way they worded it is confusing. The first two sentences say nothing about draw length. To me, it reads that they measure at 28" Plus 1 3/4". Perhaps it's worded poorly in their manual...

SJT

Jim, after looking at the AMO standard, the Bear statement seems to make sense. The weight should be taken when the string is drawn to 26.25" from the deepest part of the grip if I'm understanding correctly.

Being unfamiliar with the AMO standard initially, the statement in the Bear manual was a bit confusing.

Agreed that the way Bear describes it is confusing - you could easily interpret what they are saying as measuring 29.75 inches.

I wish Bear would improve because I would like to own a brown glass Montana someday

There's apparently a typo/error in the Bear copy. The AMO standard is measured from the string 26 1/4 inches to the deepest part of the throat, plus 1 3/4 inches which is sort of an average riser thickness. If measured to the back of the bow, it would usually turn out to be pretty close to 28 inches for most bows.

However, the manual copy reads 28 inches plus 1 3/4 inches. That's not the AMO standard, and I seriously doubt it's what Bear is actually doing.

"However, the manual copy reads 28 inches plus 1 3/4 inches. That's not the AMO standard, and I seriously doubt it's what Bear is actually doing."

No, it doesn't say that at all. What is says is, "All bows are weighed at 28, ..." Then, it goes on to say, "the distance between the deepest part in the grip area to the center of the bowstring... plus 1 3/4"."

THAT is the AMO Standard... to the deepest part of the grip, plus 1 3/4" = 28" draw.

I disagree Jim. What distance do they use between the deepest part of the grip area to the center of the bowstring? The only number given is 28 inches. It's part of the same sentence, the latter part of the sentence only completes the definition.

They just didn't get it right. If it's truly measured at 28 inches, they would have to indicate that the distance between the deepest part in the grip area to the center of the bow string is 26 1/4 inches. The definition doesn't do that, but in practice I think they're doing it right.

I've weighed several sets of newer Bear TD limbs, and they do get the weight right, i.e., the draw weight is within a # or two of the weight marked when those limbs are drawn to 26 1/4 between the deepest part in the grip area to the center of the bow string.

"...The only number given is 28 inches..."

No need to continue, I guess, but you missed the comma after 28". They measure all their bows at 28".

I agree it should/could have been worded differently. It certainly would have cleared any confusion.

Nevertheless, if 1 3/4" past the deepest part of the grip to the string equals 28", that's the AMO Standard... and that's what the sentence in the manual says.

Kinda reminds me of that story the old evangelist to us one night. He said something to the effect that it was a miracle to get two or three people to agree on ANYTHING--much less the entire church.

:^)

OK, I went back and re read it. I didn't miss the comma. The comma introduces the dependent clause (the distance between the deepest part of the grip area to the center of the bowstring - plus 1 3/4 inches) which modifies/defines the independent clause that starts the sentence. So, yes, you interpretation is correct.

However, given the sentence structure, I can see where a lot of folks would look at the dependent clause as additive rather than definitive, as I initially did. Would be much less confusing if they had stipulated that the "distance between the deepest part of the grip area to the center of the bowstring" is 26 1/4 inches.

How the hell did we get off on this tangent anyway? Sorry OP.

Type in Bear Archery-Traditions and History, Pt. 1, Video, and enjoy! There's also a Pt.2.

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