I dont have a lot of experience in looking at bows because I have always had my favorites and never looked at attributes of those bows. But I am getting older and I am starting to appreciate what makes up the dynamics of a bow.
I am still looking to get in touch with the maker of the little suckling but it just isnt looking very good. Should have gotten one when I had the opportunity :)
So the question is going to the community that has a better overall idea than I could have. I am looking for a bow that is over 8" brace and 10" would be great. The more the better, until I am looking at something that isn't worth looking at.
I am looking at any bow that is at least as quick as a black widow (no great expectations IMO) and at least as good as the Bear 48 Mag.
Let me know what you think and please give me an opinion with hands on, if you can. I would love to hear all about your recommendation and why you believe it is what I am looking for. I am not a bow trader, so whatever I do get (next year) I will be getting based on the long term.
Why the higher brace height> What advantage do you feel like that gives you? And what length bow are you looking at? Brace height typically goes up, as bow length goes down.
Great follow up fdp. 56" or shorter and short is not an issue for me. I shoot a 48 now and have never seen any problems.
Why? After all these years, I have found (for sure) that what is easiest for me too shoot well is a higher brace. Length is a non issue for me as well as center cut. I do appreciate speed but I can shoot well with a very unimpressive bow.
What is changing most for me is my ability to withstand cold and therefore, I am getting bigger and bigger (Nov. on) as the years add up. Bigger because of clothes.
I am finding that most of my summer bows are more of a P.I.T.A. each fall and I would like a sweet bow that resembles what I always end up with in my hands, as November approaches. That bow has a high brace but is very generic. I would like to get a bow made for me which is worth paying for and is what I am looking for.
Maybe what I am looking for is a stocker... who knows? This is why I am asking.
56" bear grizzly. Likes an 8" bh, has good speed or cast, aims well, maneuverable, quiet, has a med to high wrist grip, and can be had for $150 or so. Put on a tenring fury string with dual catwhiskers and you have a bow that will run with almost anything out there.
You should at least try a 1962 Kodiak Magnum...certainly not a bow that requires a high brace height it is, like the Super Mag, a forward riser design...I have had two of these amazing bows, still have the lefty, and I am a long draw shooter pulling both of them to about 30 inches (which leaves the limbs almost straight at full draw)...one might think that to be excessive for such a short bow yet I found an old Bear ad that says the bow is good to a draw length of 31 inches...so what is special about that particular year you may ask...the answer is simple, those bows were built with 3M Scotchply glass, a material Larry Hatfield of Damon Howatt, calls the best glass he ever worked with...they are as good a combination of design and materials ever put together in my opinion...I am on an elk hunt right now and mine is in my truck
62 kmags, IMO, are one of the best Bear bows made period, but like you said ddave,,,not high bh bows,,,,more like 7 1/4". I'm like you Chris and love my supermag 48,,,goes with me everywhere,,,but this 68 grizzly I'm holding now will take its place very soon. The tiger wood on mine is very dense and a full 4oz. heavier than my shedua riser 56" grizzly. I've never messed with howatt's, but can tell you the mid to late 60's Browning's are built to last and great bows also (wasp). Widows are great bows and I cannot say enough good about Toelke's bows,,if you have your heart set on a custom.
New or used? Rodney Wright makes the Stalker, which is a bang up short bow, There are some really good Cascades floating around. Zipper makes a dandy short bow.
To each his own Todd. The short bows can be very accurate in the field. I wouldn't want to use one to shoot a 28 field round, but for hunting they are pretty darn good bows. Steve Gorr's bows are short and shoot well....Steve shoots them better than most people. In the right hands they can be very effective and precise.
I determine where to start on brace by the type riser and length of the bow. By type riser I mean deflex, reflex, or straight. Then once I determine where to start I tune brace till its quiet and shoots well. Then I set myself at the task of tuning the bow for arrow flight. All bows are different. I have 2 64" recurves, both relatively straight risers. One likes 8 3/4- 9 1/4 even tho the factory calls from 8-8 1/2. The other is a custom who's bowyer calls for 6 1/2- 7", but the bow has a mind of it's own n likes 8 1/2. The brace your looking for could be any longer bow and some short bows.
There is a catch with any of the Cascade bows...Steve may still have them on the website but they are simply not available...Marc Moriez of Chek-Mate is the bowyer who made those bows and he only builds a few bows that are not generally available
I notice when hunting with my Black Widow PSA (60") that the extra brace height (8-5/8) is a nice brace height for me since it gives me more room for the bulky clothing we wear in the colder months. I also shoot this bow during 3d shoots and NFAA 300 leagues and I don't need an arm guard. I like that.
As we all know, there is no one size fits all. Just my experience with BW.
I am short and I have found that 56" is about as long as i am comfortable with. Too short isn't in my vocabulary. The 48 mag is about what I am looking for in brace but 52" would be nice.
Too bad about cascade bows... I am always late. I missed out on the little suckling too. :(
Several short, handle-forward bows from the early to mid 1960's, Herters, Wing 52" RedWing Hunter and Thunderbird, Shakespeare Cascade's and the 54" Necedah, several BP models at 52", Owen Jeffery made a 54" recurve, Browning Cobra and Nomad Stalker,etc. All bows of the same model are not created equal. Some even vary in the same model year, e.g the tigerwood 1968 Grizzly and 1969 K Mags and the 1962 rosewood K Mags. As several have suggested, you can learn to shoot a shorter bow well; I've got a K Mag. But there's no getting around the physics: a higher brace = shorter power stroke > less margin for variance on release. That's why short bows tend to be harder to be accurate with at longer distances.
An alternative approach is a Warf or Frankenbow with larger limb angle > higher brace height. I made a couple of Frakenbows from mid-1970's Bear compounds that braced at 10" and were nail-drivers..but they weren't short or light in hand.
You can be pretty accurate with short bows..well out to those 40 and even 50 yard shots. Fact is, we have folks here who say they never shoot over 20 or 25 yards, so a short bow will easily fill in that distance with not trouble. After all, we are talking about hitting a deer's vitals and they are actually pretty big. How many here even shoot over 30 at game? I'll post this video again. It's a 52" Kodiak Mag, shot at 40, 35, 30, then walked into 12 or so for the last arrow. Bow is 50#, and has a bow quiver attached...and arrows shot from that quiver. The video show the bow can be very accurate, but also very compact and hunter friendly. Don't dismiss short bows because you think they aren't accurate.
I killed alot of animals with a 56" Big Jim Thunderchild with it braced at 8 1/2". Most people don't brace it quite as high, but that is where I liked it. Probably lost a little bit of the top end speed that way, but I never put used a chromo with it. I draw 29.5".
The two shortest,widest, and fastest made recurve bows were made by Ernie Root. In 1967 He made (for Shakespeare Archery) the 52" Root Hunter and a Root Hunter Master. In 1968 though things got even better! The X29 Cascade was also a 2 &1/2" width but at 50" AMO and 28-29" draw they made the single piece in 35, 40 45, 50, 55, 60, and even 65# At 45# with the basic x29 Cascade I was seeing 30-35 yard patterns. CHRONOGRAPHED at 175fps!My arrows would go right through the target and I felt nearly as comfortable as my Super Kodiak. THEN EVERYTHING CHANGED! The 2nd CASCADE X29 production (after about 300 or so bows really Root improved the already better than average riser and included a few minor details bringing the "Black Beauty" as it's called so close to a tournament bow: Well, I had em make me a 70# pull 50" Shakespeare Cascade bow! I ordered it with the Pistol Grip Phenalilamenate Black Formica infused phenollic thermasetting resins. I chose this grip because the 1rst production run risers used a composite resin (which was ok for 35-45# but certainly not the added bonus of a full 70#! Even with the coumpound draw weight I very quickly surpased my speeds to an average 196.4FPS! WITH a nice pattern too. I only use the near full 28" length and don't go to the 29 or 30 as I had on my 45# X29. At 28" there is still to this day no noticeable stacking. No string pinch or hand shock even at 70# mostly due to the better riser and the width. I kept it at a solid 9" for a long time (years) using both the X29 Cascade bows and an earlier Root Hunter I originally bought to be a "beater bow" second to my Bear Super Kodiak, which if I had kept one of tje Kodiak's I would have kept my one piece 65# but ONLY because it's worth so much money now! When I started using the Root "Broad Bows", my first the Hunter the only two issues I noticed slightly were my arrows were going THROUGH the target, and the other issue a Simple fix! I set the newer Custom Cascade at 8 & 3/4" which drastically reduced noise by far! So much so I've never used silencers. I DID NOT BELIEVE FOR A BIT What Shakespeare said about the CASCADE when advertising the first models in 1967 (I think it was?) They claimed the X29 CASCADE would handle 25% more stress and an increase in flight speed by 33%! I didn't put that to the test until late 69 or Spring of 70 when I read about the then called "rocket grade" or something similar Resins and Formica infused new risers. When I FINALLY picked mine up, yup in an AMC Wagon too I remember everybody staring at me. I was going to drive back and mostly just stare at this black pearl of magical madness,until I was handed a box or wooden 29 & 1/2" 350 grain wooden arrows. I remember thinking how heavy they were then. I NEVER forgot consistently hitting 185-195FPS! I did it again today too after some advice on a string. This was the first string I bought and didn't have made for the Black Beauty! I will have one made Thursday though as my Bowsmith was not there and I have a couple older bows I'd like to see strength tested and shot (by someone other than myself or tje kids who work at the outdoor shop and told me today they were all certified bowsmiths. Does one even need to be certified? In closing, I love my short recurves and broad bows;albiet,I've always been partial to most one piece Bear's from before I was born until, well, I still like them. I even like the takedown S.Kodiak but for something that can fit almost anywhere, has barely a smudge on it (except the missing medallion I noticed this year had come off),Is damn near silent while increases my strength still yet which in turn tightens my already half-inch apart pattern in a good dozen that don't go all the way through the foam,with carpets in between,not only is the custom 70# X29 my absolute favorite anywhere big game,little bow. It was the best archery financial transaction I've made aside from selling a bunch of late 50's to my newest (sold) all recurve and a couple long. That best financial reason is because somewhere there's a 600 dollar 45# recurve sitting above some guys fireplace and I shot faster,harder,and with less slack and a smoother draw today with an old bow I payed $114.00 for some 47 years ago! I haven't found the medallion yet but if I had not joined this forum when I came across the two old CASCADEs and asked a few questions I might not have shot it again and may have just left it on the storage hangers. I even found the paperwork which shows tje added special edition black fiberglass face and back with th e Shakespeare Hunter rest and a free String Ease Bow Stringer that if I didn't have now there's no way I would have put a 50" Darcon for a 70-100# bow on that wide little thing! It's like the Tommy Gun of recurve bows! I have begun looking for another as well! I would like to again have the x29 Cascade but perhaps one around 50-55#. Anything after Feb or March due to the better riser. I saw a 65# RH Cascade on eBay today for $175 and it was in absolutely horrible shape!I felt bad for it seeing it marked all up,twisted,and beaten with the fiberglass coming off so much it will soon be as green as my 8! IF there is something out there like that and either more reasonable or in WAY better condition I would most certainly be interested in having another, possibly one to use as a fish stick. Which reminds me,I asked why there was a hole about 2 inches in diameter drilled deep into the riser of the one that is for sale currently. The answer came back: for a quiver. Sure man,and I shoot skeet with a Model 37 Breakaway Winchester .410. (I do actually) I grew up on that shotgun. Still kicks like Hell. [email protected] 1-870-450-8408
The two shortest,widest, and fastest made recurve bows were made by Ernie Root. In 1967 He made (for Shakespeare Archery) the 52" Root Hunter and a Root Hunter Master. In 1968 though things got even better! The X29 Cascade was also a 2 &1/2" width but at 50" AMO and 28-29" draw they made the single piece in 35, 40 45, 50, 55, 60, and even 65# At 45# with the basic x29 Cascade I was seeing 30-35 yard patterns. CHRONOGRAPHED at 175fps!My arrows would go right through the target and I felt nearly as comfortable as my Super Kodiak. THEN EVERYTHING CHANGED! The 2nd CASCADE X29 production (after about 300 or so bows really Root improved the already better than average riser and included a few minor details bringing the "Black Beauty" as it's called so close to a tournament bow: Well, I had em make me a 70# pull 50" Shakespeare Cascade bow! I ordered it with the Pistol Grip Phenalilamenate Black Formica infused phenollic thermasetting resins. I chose this grip because the 1rst production run risers used a composite resin (which was ok for 35-45# but certainly not the added bonus of a full 70#! Even with the coumpound draw weight I very quickly surpased my speeds to an average 196.4FPS! WITH a nice pattern too. I only use the near full 28" length and don't go to the 29 or 30 as I had on my 45# X29. At 28" there is still to this day no noticeable stacking. No string pinch or hand shock even at 70# mostly due to the better riser and the width. I kept it at a solid 9" for a long time (years) using both the X29 Cascade bows and an earlier Root Hunter I originally bought to be a "beater bow" second to my Bear Super Kodiak, which if I had kept one of tje Kodiak's I would have kept my one piece 65# but ONLY because it's worth so much money now! When I started using the Root "Broad Bows", my first the Hunter the only two issues I noticed slightly were my arrows were going THROUGH the target, and the other issue a Simple fix! I set the newer Custom Cascade at 8 & 3/4" which drastically reduced noise by far! So much so I've never used silencers. I DID NOT BELIEVE FOR A BIT What Shakespeare said about the CASCADE when advertising the first models in 1967 (I think it was?) They claimed the X29 CASCADE would handle 25% more stress and an increase in flight speed by 33%! I didn't put that to the test until late 69 or Spring of 70 when I read about the then called "rocket grade" or something similar Resins and Formica infused new risers. When I FINALLY picked mine up, yup in an AMC Wagon too I remember everybody staring at me. I was going to drive back and mostly just stare at this black pearl of magical madness,until I was handed a box or wooden 29 & 1/2" 350 grain wooden arrows. I remember thinking how heavy they were then. I NEVER forgot consistently hitting 185-195FPS! I did it again today too after some advice on a string. This was the first string I bought and didn't have made for the Black Beauty! I will have one made Thursday though as my Bowsmith was not there and I have a couple older bows I'd like to see strength tested and shot (by someone other than myself or tje kids who work at the outdoor shop and told me today they were all certified bowsmiths. Does one even need to be certified? In closing, I love my short recurves and broad bows;albiet,I've always been partial to most one piece Bear's from before I was born until, well, I still like them. I even like the takedown S.Kodiak but for something that can fit almost anywhere, has barely a smudge on it (except the missing medallion I noticed this year had come off),Is damn near silent while increases my strength still yet which in turn tightens my already half-inch apart pattern in a good dozen that don't go all the way through the foam,with carpets in between,not only is the custom 70# X29 my absolute favorite anywhere big game,little bow. It was the best archery financial transaction I've made aside from selling a bunch of late 50's to my newest (sold) all recurve and a couple long. That best financial reason is because somewhere there's a 600 dollar 45# recurve sitting above some guys fireplace and I shot faster,harder,and with less slack and a smoother draw today with an old bow I payed $114.00 for some 47 years ago! I haven't found the medallion yet but if I had not joined this forum when I came across the two old CASCADEs and asked a few questions I might not have shot it again and may have just left it on the storage hangers. I even found the paperwork which shows tje added special edition black fiberglass face and back with th e Shakespeare Hunter rest and a free String Ease Bow Stringer that if I didn't have now there's no way I would have put a 50" Darcon for a 70-100# bow on that wide little thing! It's like the Tommy Gun of recurve bows! I have begun looking for another as well! I would like to again have the x29 Cascade but perhaps one around 50-55#. Anything after Feb or March due to the better riser. I saw a 65# RH Cascade on eBay today for $175 and it was in absolutely horrible shape!I felt bad for it seeing it marked all up,twisted,and beaten with the fiberglass coming off so much it will soon be as green as my 8! IF there is something out there like that and either more reasonable or in WAY better condition I would most certainly be interested in having another, possibly one to use as a fish stick. Which reminds me,I asked why there was a hole about 2 inches in diameter drilled deep into the riser of the one that is for sale currently. The answer came back: for a quiver. Sure man,and I shoot skeet with a Model 37 Breakaway Winchester .410. (I do actually) I grew up on that shotgun. Still kicks like Hell. [email protected] 1-870-450-8408
