I have heard the phrase "Aim Small miss small". Does this phrase pertain to instinctive shooting. I have also heard that you when you shoot instinctively you don't aim. Can someone explain whether this phrase applies to instinctive shooters. Thanks James

I think it's the same as picking your smallest spot with or without "aiming."

OK, let's get this straight....

EVERYBODY AIMS. Every shot. Just some pay more attention to how they do it than others.

And yes. Pick the smallest identifiable mark that you can find on approximately the right part of the animal, and focus on that. As a friend of mine put it, you're much better off hitting exactly wrong than not quite right.

GF, let's get this straight, we could use an explanation of how Frank Addington aims. It would help get things straight. If "aim" means try to hit, we're all set with Frank's method. If it means align your shot by visual input of the arrow's position, how about explaining that to us? Please?

Well, here we go....

Yes. Aiming in true instinctive shooting is like throwing a baseball. You look right at the pocket of the catchers mitt. You prepare to throw. Your arm goes behind your head out of your vision. Then you throw the ball and it goes right or darn close to the pocket of the catchers mitt. Same thing happens bowling, or throwing a basketball to a hoop, or a wadded up ball of paper into a trash can. Sometimes you can even spit were you want it to go.

Also, if you're good at visualizing (and I am not), you can visualize something small like an aspirin or a pingpong ball on the place were you want to hit on your target or animal. You might miss the "aspirin" but your arrow will be very close.

What that phrase means exactly is if you aim at a 8" spot you'll hit it or at least hit around the edges. If you aim a 4 inch circle you'll hit or hit close to the edges. If you aim a 1/2" circle you'll hit it or hit around the edges. So you see a close miss at a tiny target is a better shot than one aimed at a large target. The phrase came from a movie but the idea has been around forever. It doesn't matter if you're using gap, sights , or instinctive.

Nicely put GLF.

"GF, let's get this straight, we could use an explanation of how Frank Addington aims. It would help get things straight. If "aim" means try to hit, we're all set with Frank's method. If it means align your shot by visual input of the arrow's position, how about explaining that to us? Please?"

We could use a quantifiable measure of just how accurate and precise Frank Addington is.

As a practical matter, how likely is it that any info regarding what Frank Addington does is going to help any of us shoot better?

The ball throwing analogy has never seemed to help me much. If I shoot a bow like I throw a ball, I achieve about the same accuracy and precision...which wouldn't be considered very good in any archery venue.

What GLF said very nicely and accurately.

And yes, Frank does what he does by repetition...his aiming is as real as it is mysterious, since he couldn't do it without practice and feel. So if you must have a concrete "label" to define aiming, you'll likely be looking for awhile. Call it instinctive, but none of us can do it well without practice first....that means it's a learned trait, and that means it requires practice. Labels be damned. Can learned traits become an instinctive action? Yes.

GLF really did capture the essence of what that phrase means. The smaller the point of concentration the smaller the margin of error. Rather then shooting at the yellow centre of the target concentrate on an arrow hole in the centre of the target. You will miss by degrees of the arrow hole diameter.

In my tiny little mind, aiming is using a reference point, like I did when I gap shot. The arrow tip would be varying degrees of "below and to the right" of the point I wanted to hit, the variance depending on the range.

I abandoned that quite soon after I began and now I just look at what I want to hit. My brain is figuring things out and telling my left arm and torso to play along and then comes the release and a hit on or close to that point.

Any errors are due to form issues. With me it's usually my anchor or not a deep enough hook.

Consistency for me comes from range practice, 3D and, best of all, roving.

But it's so romantic (in a Hollywood sort of way) to envision launching an arrow from any position with no regard beyond directing the arrow to the exact intended spot by shear force of will. All this business about form, tuning and "aiming" methods is so dry in comparison.

I am

but I misalot

That's I Aim but Misalot

In the words of Jackie Gleason that great comedic actor, " And away we go!"

I think you are relatively new and so I'll explain that there has been an ongoing debate on the LW as the whether or not instinctive archers "see" the arrow.

10Arrows, as you probably know, the phrase "aim small; miss small" was popularized in the movie "the Patriot" when Mel Gibson's character was teaching his sons how to shoot.

Its application to archery, as was mentioned, is to just shoot at the smallest part you can see.

We just like to discuss such issues here. :)

In the words of Stephen Bishop," ...on and on.."

Jawge

Skeets something clicked when I read your post. Thanks

Skeets, yes...we/they have been telling folks for years; pick a hair on a deer, or a tuft of hair. Same with target, you can see the whole target at 60 yards or you can see the inside of the gold.

Everyone "aims". Period. Whether you claim to see the arrow or not or whatever other method you use, you are aiming the arrow at the target. Otherwise, you wouldnt hit the "broad side of the barn" from the inside. Just the way it is.

Yes...look at the spot with both eyes open and release. Thinking "I'm going to hit that dark spot on the stump."

It does take repetitive practice to shoot a barebow. I said I was not good at visualizing an imaginary something on a target. My dad was very accurate and he said he could picture a balloon on the side of a deer's chest. Frank Addington will tell you he has been gifted with better vision than most people. One thing I am very good at is shooting through holes. Like on bionic deer targets. Fred Bear said if you see a hole through the leaves that is more than 3/4ths of the way to the deer, the hole will act like a peep sight and you'll hit the deer. I seem to be able to visualize a 1" hole through the side of a deer usually just above the elbow joint. So I try to shoot through the hole. It takes a lot of practice.

No..it pertains to shooting anything (bow, rifle, pistol, shotgun) using any method.

The smaller the area that you concentrate on whether you are using a sight pin, buckhorn sight, cross hairs in a scope, the tip of your arrow, or "the force". the closer you will come to hitting that spot. Just like GLF said. If you yo let the cross hairs of a scope drift over the entire area of an 8" target, you will hit somewhere on the 8" target. If you let the cross hairs drift over the 1" circle in the middle, you will hit somewhere in the 1" circle. Now, as for how Frank Addington shoots related to this, some of us on here are friends with Frank, and I can assure you that he DOES NOT shoot at deer from behind his back. He looks right down the arrow just like everybody else.

It works the same for Frank. He concentrates on a tiny spot so even his misses are hits.

Well sex and the need for food are instinctual George, that doesn't mean that neither (even for elemental purposes) will be improved with practice.

Instinctive turns out to be a poor term for communicating an idea to people who have a closed mind about it, but rather good for those who don't. That is normal enough, what appears on Fox is not all that useful for convincing people on MSNBC, but both work for audiences that are already segmented.

One definition of "instinctive" is: "doing a specified thing apparently naturally or automatically". That probably isn't a bad way of describing the difference between how a guy shooting like Asbell shoots and a guy whose bow is bristling with sights and stabilizers shoots.

Fred Bear is an example of one who long ago said the term "instinctive" was an inadequate word for his method of shooting.

It's still inadequate and inaccurate.

That doesn't change anything about the method.

BUT, this thread was about picking a small spot. I am sorry to have nudged the conversation toward this other issue that will never find universal agreement.

1/2 inch red and white bobber trying to hit the red plunger @ 17 yards. Hard to tell in picture but if you look close you can see it.

Wasn't it Byron F. that said:

"The center of an aspirin is the exact same size as the center of a watermelon."

I see, therefore I aim. But that's just me.

Rick

Just a catchy saying...if it applies to your shooting and helps you to shoot better use it

DDave

Bowlim, I don't know about that. I think practice will improve sex, and searching for food. The fight/flight system is instinctive, but that can get better by understanding the causes. This is way too cerebral for my hillbilly head. Go shoot some arrows. 8^)

You guys forget that Frank has different vision than us. He has exceptional eyesight. That has to help. Hopefully Frank will see this and explain it to you.

If you pick a spot you are aiming at the spot. If you trow a ball are yu aiming at the feet? Maybe if you want to put the ball at the feet to tag out as they slide.

Variables don't forget that. That's ok if you do though I'll keep reminding ya.LOL

I know if I am taking a longer shot I'll look further up on the animal. If you learn how to use the animals legs and center of body to place an arrow it works out when you shooting just like learning the targets where to hit on them they aren't like animals a lot of them the kill zones on many of them you might find out.

When I first saw this thread, I thought...nope...not gonna do it.......

But, here I am.

In one way or another...baseball...hockey...basketball...place kicking...croquet...golf...and, yes, archery......one "aims". Period.

Whether one uses sights, the arrow, or the mind...you "aim".

As for golf, the great teacher Butch Harmon says, "If you aim at nothing, you'll hit Iit every time". Another reknown golf coach of yesteryear...Bob Rotell (spelling?) preached always, "Take dead aim".

As a side note, in teaching my wife golf, and archery, I told her, "It's kinda like sex...you don't really have to be good at it to have a good time". ;^)

When my form is solid and ingrained, then my "aiming" is concentrating as hard as I can on a molecule that's in the tiny spot I want to hit. The more I can focus the more accurate I am.

I've been shooting like this for many years now and it STILL amazes me that it works as well as it does.....when I'm doing my part.

I won't get into the aiming part of this discussion.

However, I'm a fanatic about archers keeping their thinking positive when it comes to shooting. The term "aim small, miss small" is not positive enough for me. Instead I like "aim small, hit small". Missing is of course part of the archery experience, but I prefer to keep the thought far from my thought process.

I can't even stand highway signs that read, "Do Not Pass". I'd prefer they read, "Pass Later".

You don't aim throwing a baseball (unless pitching) yet never a concern hitting your man/target in an opportune fashion, Same principle.

Any analogy to throwing anything other than a pitcher that has to hit a certain area is very flawed. That's why baseball players, football players, basketball players, all move to catch a ball thrown to them. A quarter back throws to a spot 85% of the time. The receiver runs to that spot.

A bow is a shooting implement that you aim, just like a rifle or handgun. A shotgun you point.

Only archer of any acclaim I ever heard say he doesn't aim is Fred Asbell.....

"Aim small miss small" works. But as I follow the Leatherwall, one thing that is so very obvious is that many of you are not very good hunters (gasp), that sounds like something abrasive that Donald Trump would say lol. To the point, learn how to find deer. Second, learn how to steel yourself at the right moment to take the shot,(shaking, stareoffs etc, and get the shot off.). There are many hunters here that are better than me. But I'm pretty damn good at taking big deer. Point is that being a good archer has nothing to do with being a good hunter! I have been trying to drive this point home but it seems like no one is listening, like it's not politically correct. Go to the kill threads and look at the ones that take big deer. Talk to them and get them to share. "Aim small shoot small" only works only if you have something to shoot at. I have 3 P&Y kills, not to brag, just to let you know I'm not spewing a bunch of bs.

The word instinctive is misleading in aiming.Instinct is something most people or critters for that matter are born with.No body I know of was ever born knowing how to shoot a bow .It is a learned skill and always was and will be.We consider our shooting to be instinctive but we are not conscious of actually aiming.Repetition is what allows us to shoot (INSTINCTIVELY) or consistently at various ranges.Your brain memorises where your arrow or bow should be in relation to a target at any given range.I don't call that instinctive.Flying south for the winter or fleeing from predators is instinctive and drinking mothers milk when your a baby is the same sort of thing.You are not born with shoot/aiming skills. OSR

I would say yes. My opinion it applies by meaning concentrate on that spot small spot and not to look at the entire target or animal. I find when my cocenteation is on I dont even realuze it. Its lije once i start to draw the bow its all over and i hit exactly where my mind wants.

Not touching this , as I aim .

I can tell you without a doubt that any baseball pitcher that aims when he throws is very soon sitting on the bench, hoping his team can make a comeback. MP

Here we go again. We've been thru this a million times and the guys who can't do it always fail to use the full definition of instinctive.

in·stinc·tive

/in?stiNG(k)tiv/

adjective

adjective: instinctive

relating to or prompted by instinct; apparently unconscious or automatic.

"an instinctive distaste for conflict"

•

(of a person) doing or being a specified thing apparently naturally or automatically.

"an instinctive writer"

synonyms: intuitive, natural, instinctual, innate, inborn, inherent; More

unconscious, subconscious, intuitional;

automatic, reflex, knee-jerk, mechanical, spontaneous, involuntary, impulsive;

informalgut, second nature

"an instinctive understanding of machinery"

antonyms: learned, voluntary

Howdy fellas I am just now slowing down so I can read some of the posts I have missed while traveling. I didn't read all the posts but FDP and George Stout's I saw..and a few others. Here's a few rambling thoughts for what they are worth.

Stacy Groscup called it reflex shooting. He felt that was a better term because like a reflex, we begin pointing a finger at objects as a baby. That bow and arrow eventually becomes like an extension of your finger. He often used parables (He was a minister by trade after all) and often said if you are driving your car down a street and something or someone runs in front of your car-- you slam on the brake. You don't "think" about it because there is no time. The brain sees danger and the foot goes to the brake. Then the thought process catches up. So in other words your brain is on auto pilot in that situation. That's often how it is when that baby aspirin tablet or tablets is tossed into mid air. There's no time for me to think about it. My eyes lock down on the tablets, calculate the speed and trajectory the pills are traveling and then I draw the bow (behind the back) while monitoring the pills path and when my brain says release I do so. Last show I did I did four exhibitions and a lady with the event was throwing. I'd never met her nor has she seen my show. Out of four shows two were first shot and two were second shot shows. Crazy huh?

The human brain is amazing. It truly is. My eyes are 20/8 but stacy wore glasses and he was the best exhibition shooter ever. Seven aspirin tablets in a row is his record set in the 1980's and it still stands today. So I do think my eyes help me but it isn't required to have 20/8 because Stacy wore glasses and did just fine.

A special forces friend once watched my show and after watching me shoot at shows in NC and Indiana and South Carolina, he said I was using what he called "target acquisition". I like that term. My eyes lock down on the target and I do not see my bow or arrow behind the back. I'm looking at my target. The brain does the rest. That's also how I hunt- - not behind the back but I look at my target and the brain does the rest. I always joke that I'm not smart enough to use a gap or aiming system. I'm aware of the bow and arrow when shooting regularly but my focus is always on my intended target. If I am looking at a gen is ball and shoot a bow I do g know, and I miss the ball, if I am low the next shot I will raise the position of the bow. Once I get the feel for the bow the brain takes over and I concentrate on my target. I "see" the bow and arrow but the brain is focusing on my target.

Anyway, I also think Hill blended instinctive and gap shooting. Doug Walker once told me of Hill being on some land with lots of rabbits. Hill would fire one arrow to make the rabbit run and take the rabbit with the next arrow. The way a rabbit zig and zags and the speed would not allow a lot of time for error or a gap system. It would changing so Hill had to let his brain take over and use instinctive shooting.

My two cents anyway. And I think most successful bowhunters with traditional tackle would probably agree that a blended style produces better results than one style or another.

You all have a great weekend.

Shoot Straight,

Frank

By the way, I don't blend the styles. But I have came home empty handed on hunts that a good gap shooter could have taken game.

I recall one hunt in New Mexico and a 7x7 bull was at 22 steps. He was behind a tree and all I could see was his head and all those horns and his backside. He winded me and darted up the mountain and he stopped at 60 yards and offered a good quartering away shot. I let him walk. That same hunt my father took a PY 6x6 and Dr Ed Eskew took a 8x6 that scored just under 400PY with his bow. I had a compound and shot instinctively but I limit my yardage hunting.

I've taken game past 30 instinctively but that day I wasn't going to risk wounding such a magnificent bull. The other two bowhunters with us missed bull elk so we all had a chance at big bull elk. This was with guide Ross Johnson in New Mexico. Amazing hunt!

Frank

Someone asked Bryan Ferguson how did you become such a good shot. His answer was practice,practice,practice. I'd say he's right.

Byron Ferguson says the center of an aspirin is exactly the same size as the center of a beach ball. Aim small.

HEY NOW, I AIM TO HIT WHAT I AM LOOKING AT.lol

IF I SEE'S THE CRITTER COMING IN NOT LOOKING AT HIS EYE BALL OR HIS HEAD JUST HIS CHEST AND AS HE COMES INTO MY ANGLE THAT I AM DRAWLING AND SHOOTING THEN HE APPROACHES AND IZE DRAWS IN HIM AND HE GETS IT. I KNOW HOW TO COME UP ON AN ANIMAL OR DOWN ON AN ANIMAL AND OVER EITHER WAY TO SEND THE SHAFT ITS WAY MORE THAN PICKING A SPOT IT KNOWING WHERE TO SHOOT THINGS. YOU CAN PICK A HOLE IN A TARGET OR A NOCK IF SOMEONE ELSE'S ARROW IS ALREADY IN A TARGET BUT WHEN YOU DRAW ON A CRITTER ITS GAME TIME OR NOT.IF MY TIMING IS OFF JUST A LITTLE THE SHOT MIGHT BE OFF A LOT OR I DIDN'T SEE THE TWIG BECAUSE I HAVE ZEROED IN ON A SPOT AND DIDN'T SEE THE SURROUNDING HAD TO MUCH TUNNEL VISION THAT GOES ON A LOT HERE IS NARROW VISION.

VARIABLES REMEMBER THAT.

I didn't say it was anything, read the post. It's just a dictionary definition.

Muscle memory and subconsciously using reference points is my take on instinctive shooting. I sometimes shoot different length scrap arrows together n they hit fine so my reference isn't the arrow but could be the shelf, who knows. Or maybe it's all muscle memory like throwing a ball is. I just think it's something different sometimes for different shooters. I've never been politically correct on anything and I'm set in my ways after shooting the same way for 51 years. And since it fits the definition of instinctive pretty well, to me it's still instinctive. Its just beyond me why it bothers so many people what someone else calls their form of shooting and what that same form had been called for the last century probably. Sorry if I jumped a little heavy, but these arguments go on almost constantly because someones offended that us poor dumb guys call it instinctive,lol.

Cain..."Here we go again. We've been through this a billion times. It it what I say it is. Because lm on here 24/7."

So why 7 posts after this comment??

Cain, your right...I have no dog in this fight and should not have commented....my bad. I do have my opinion on this but going to move on...or bounce..ha.

If you want to hit something small you have to aim small. No matter how you approach your aiming.

Cain, you must aim. Otherwise you would never hit.

Frank would never miss a deer if he could get his assistant to throw it up in the air. Just kidding here...

Did Byron shoot a falling drop of water?

If so, I'd love to see video of him doing it.

I didn't think it had been done.

I've been trying it on occasion. Haven't accomplished it yet.

Rick

When somebody says that they do something a certain way, why would anybody tell them," No you don't " ? MP

Has any one ever thought--If you put up a large un marked target,square, round or triangle,it doesn't matter. Hand some one a gun, bow,rock,or sling shot. They will hit near the center. The eye automatically centers things be it sights or targets. Thus the reasoning for small targets. Aim Small Miss small. Good Luck. Ken

Ruffedges- That's funny!

Rick - Yep, saw him hit the drop of water on "Impossible Shots" if I remember correctly.

Hi. Just FYI muscles have no memory. Cut into your thigh, no SD card in there. It's motor programming from your brain. A series of effector nerves in your brain sends a signal to the muscle of what to do. It's a long explanation but some good reading if you want to understand on how you learn a technique or motor skill. It all relates to shooting any type of weapon. Thanks guys for some good reading here.

Cut into your brain, no sd card there either. I used that term because that's what your average joe calls it and we're mostly just average Joes here.

If the "term" is incorrect I would think even an "average joe" would not use it. Sorry but there are way more greats on here than "average joes" Keep trying maybe someday you will be thought of as a great.

I can't find the video of Byron shooting the falling drop of water. I have a message in to him to give me a link to it. Hopefully he will reply soon.

I've tried the shot a few times, and have come very close, but close don't count.

Rick

Another OSB

Let it go GLF..u told me once in a thread the same thing.Jimmy Blackmon told me once on this site that sometimes "people just don't know what they don't know". He was referring to me and he was correct. Speck

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